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Nokia and their iPhone 'killer' - Page 2

post #41 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

If the press release and the video are anything to go by, this appears to be Nokia's answer to PalmOS and Windows Mobile Professional (whichever one has the touchscreen support), and even Symbian with UIQ. Perhaps not an answer exactly, but an implementation of a feature.

Nokia aren't really worried about PalmOS and Windows Mobile. Outside the USA those are statistically irrelevant and Nokia doesn't really sell phones in the USA although I'm sure they'd like to.

It would appear to be a direct answer to Apple but you're also right about UIQ. UIQ has always been a touch interface (with a stylus). Nokia's S60 UI has always been non-touch. I think Nokia have seen that they were wrong and are now playing catch-up.

UIQ3 added in UI transitions too, most of which just slowed down the UI to be honest, and made it annoying. It's still a much better UI than S60 though IME.


Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

The usage of sensors is interesting though. That could be something that is Apple-inspired. Apple didn't originate the idea, but I definitely think they reinvigorated the usage of onboard instrumentation for UI usage.

Again I don't think this is entirely because of Apple. Nokia's main competitor in Europe is Sony Ericsson and they've already got phones out that use accelerometers as part of the UI to do things like change to the next track in the music player - just shake the phone and goes to the next track - stuff like that.

It's great that Apple seems to have scared Nokia into being more UIQ like. Symbian always was a touch based OS back in the Psion EPOC days and even Nokia's S80 UI was touch based on their Communicators, so it's good to see Nokia find it's roots again.
post #42 of 56
OK, what part of this isn't smoke and mirrors, at this time - Vaporware.

1) Only demo is video - CG? If not why not have the phone on demo, like the Jan Apple intro.? Have to give Jobs credit, he showed a working demo with the specs which were then sold 6 months later. Very specific.

2) SW available to HW vendor '2008' When? So first hardware in 2009? So which iPhone do you compare this to.

Looks like Nokia is pulling a MSFT 'surface'/Cairo. Or a GE. Freeze the competition sales with smoke and mirrors.

Look, I'd like to believe this as it represents something to push Apple even further, but what evidence is there that this is real, or if real, even close to anything realizable.
post #43 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Nokia aren't really worried about PalmOS and Windows Mobile. Outside the USA those are statistically irrelevant and Nokia doesn't really sell phones in the USA although I'm sure they'd like to.

It would appear to be a direct answer to Apple but you're also right about UIQ. UIQ has always been a touch interface (with a stylus). Nokia's S60 UI has always been non-touch. I think Nokia have seen that they were wrong and are now playing catch-up.

UIQ3 added in UI transitions too, most of which just slowed down the UI to be honest, and made it annoying. It's still a much better UI than S60 though IME.


Again I don't think this is entirely because of Apple. Nokia's main competitor in Europe is Sony Ericsson and they've already got phones out that use accelerometers as part of the UI to do things like change to the next track in the music player - just shake the phone and goes to the next track - stuff like that.

It's great that Apple seems to have scared Nokia into being more UIQ like. Symbian always was a touch based OS back in the Psion EPOC days and even Nokia's S80 UI was touch based on their Communicators, so it's good to see Nokia find it's roots again.

Its definatley evident that the phone which has inspired the design of the device you saw in that video is the iphone although Nokia arnt worried about the iphone. They sell more mid and low range phones than Apple have sold iphones so far so to say Nokis is worried is a gross overstatement. As for SE being their main competitor thats wrong again as Moto just bought half of UIQ, its Moto who will next year bring out more innovative UIQ products so if anyone is to compete with the share its Moto.

As for the sluggish UI on Nokias well you should read up on the below link so you can see how it will be different in the upcoming devices. Infact the developers go on to say they have already created applications the same as coverflow so dont be surpirsed to see similar things to the iphone when its out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

OK, what part of this isn't smoke and mirrors, at this time - Vaporware.

1) Only demo is video - CG? If not why not have the phone on demo, like the Jan Apple intro.? Have to give Jobs credit, he showed a working demo with the specs which were then sold 6 months later. Very specific.

2) SW available to HW vendor '2008' When? So first hardware in 2009? So which iPhone do you compare this to.

Looks like Nokia is pulling a MSFT 'surface'/Cairo. Or a GE. Freeze the competition sales with smoke and mirrors.

Look, I'd like to believe this as it represents something to push Apple even further, but what evidence is there that this is real, or if real, even close to anything realizable.

Its not vapourware. im sure Nokia could show parts of it now if they wanted. You do know that not all the functions in the iphone were actually working at time of the keynote dont you? The way jobs done it was always going to happen as it was Apples first phone so they didnt want FCC to do the normal thing. Plus the way Apple always hypes things up it was always going to go down that route.

The first of the S60 touch devices will be released in Q3/Q4 of 2008 to coincide with the iphones sucessor.
post #44 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by bavlondon2 View Post

Its not vapourware. im sure Nokia could show parts of it now if they wanted. You do know that not all the functions in the iphone were actually working at time of the keynote dont you? The way jobs done it was always going to happen as it was Apples first phone so they didnt want FCC to do the normal thing. Plus the way Apple always hypes things up it was always going to go down that route.

The first of the S60 touch devices will be released in Q3/Q4 of 2008 to coincide with the iphones sucessor.

Not sure what your point is, also where you get the the dates for hardware. The only thing announced at what I've seen is specification of software that will be available some time in 2008. Of course not everything was working in Jan otherwise it would have been released. But what was shown was real and working, and on hardware in someone's hand. Why didn't nokia show this? As I said, smells of freezing the market type of presentation.
post #45 of 56
All shall be revealed in November :-) Thats all ill say.
post #46 of 56
Thread Starter 
will be nice to know...

I like my iPhone, but a real, full feature Nokia 'iPhone' for a decent price (499euro or less) would have me switch back in a heartbeat.

Although.. well.. I hope the final version will be a helluva lot thinner. That prototype looks like an E90 with it's screen flipper backwards and shortened. That would be way too thick
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post #47 of 56
Thats just one of the 2 designs. The other one is more iphone esque and can be seen in the promo video that we saw at the n81 presentation.

There will be 2 models announced in November. One of which will only have a 2mp cam the other will have a 3.2 mp cam. Nokia are actually desperate to get the lesser model of the 2 out before xmas but are a bit reluctant as it may harm n95 8gb or n81 sales and they really want to give Ovi a push. But watch this space for 2008 as I promise you will be flabergasted by what they will bring out.

I know iphone is here and now but its not always about who brings out stuff first. Heck sharp frist had the 2mp and 3.2 mp cam phones on the market but they were by no means the best ones.

Just wait and see what they do with the new graphics system for the UI. I cant wait...
post #48 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by bavlondon2 View Post

Thats just one of the 2 designs. The other one is more iphone esque and can be seen in the promo video that we saw at the n81 presentation.

There will be 2 models announced in November. One of which will only have a 2mp cam the other will have a 3.2 mp cam. Nokia are actually desperate to get the lesser model of the 2 out before xmas but are a bit reluctant as it may harm n95 8gb or n81 sales and they really want to give Ovi a push. But watch this space for 2008 as I promise you will be flabergasted by what they will bring out.

I know iphone is here and now but its not always about who brings out stuff first. Heck sharp frist had the 2mp and 3.2 mp cam phones on the market but they were by no means the best ones.

Just wait and see what they do with the new graphics system for the UI. I cant wait...

Ok, now things are just contradictory. The presentation talks about availability of sw for hw in 2008 which implies hw availability later in 2008. You're now saying a product announcement, for purchase (based on the need to release before the holiday buying season), in Nov. of 2007, which is 2 weeks away?????? What is reality????
post #49 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Nokia aren't really worried about PalmOS and Windows Mobile. Outside the USA those are statistically irrelevant and Nokia doesn't really sell phones in the USA although I'm sure they'd like to.

It would appear to be a direct answer to Apple but you're also right about UIQ. UIQ has always been a touch interface (with a stylus). Nokia's S60 UI has always been non-touch. I think Nokia have seen that they were wrong and are now playing catch-up.

UIQ3 added in UI transitions too, most of which just slowed down the UI to be honest, and made it annoying. It's still a much better UI than S60 though IME.

I really can't see it as a direct answer to the Apple iPhone until they implement a touchscreen finger-based UI. And I don't think Nokia needs to catch up with UIQ as a stylus driven UI doesn't enhance usability. A stylus-based UI adds capability and features, which I think is something Nokia is willing to add in order to compete.

Stylus driven designs are not user friendly. They are business friendly (maybe), nerd-friendly (what isn't), but not something that enhances the user experience which is Apple's niche. My supposition that it's more of an answer to PalmOS and Windows Mobile is due to the UI design in the video. UIQ is another factor (even though Nokia competes fine against them without a stylus) I suppose. I said PalmOS more as an example of a UI that was designed for a stylus, but a finger can also be used in limited situations. Windows Mobile is like that too, but is something I think Nokia is worried about because its a more immediate threat to high end phone sales (~$500+ range). WM obviously has a similar in style type of UI as the one in the Nokia video. WM is also in a lot of high phones, especially from HTC, with several from Moto, Samsung, Palm, and maybe LG.

These WM phones are kitchen sink phones, and can vector into Nokias high end N-series phones. SE has a phones too that can do this, but I think the market coming from WM is bigger due to more devices, especially the stylus part. The video from Nokia in this thread appears to more an answer to this sort of market. This type of UI would be something they could have had in their labs for awhile, and be able to productize in a 6 to 8 months if the need warrants. For Apple's UI to be re-created, I think that's another year, maybe 2009, at least.

For a direct answer to Apple from Nokia, that happened a couple of months ago at Nokia's Go:Play event where Nokia introduced a media portal store, 4 phones (N95-3, N81, 5310, 6310) specialized for media (especially music) with refined UIs to be release Q4 07. They weren't finger-touch-based ones though. Also included was a market freezing video of an actual iPhone-like cell phone design with finger-based UI. It was all video, no live hardware meaning that they aren't very close to a product at all.

Nokia and Apple are going to war, make now mistake about that.

Quote:
Again I don't think this is entirely because of Apple. Nokia's main competitor in Europe is Sony Ericsson and they've already got phones out that use accelerometers as part of the UI to do things like change to the next track in the music player - just shake the phone and goes to the next track - stuff like that.

Which phones?
post #50 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

Ok, now things are just contradictory. The presentation talks about availability of sw for hw in 2008 which implies hw availability later in 2008. You're now saying a product announcement, for purchase (based on the need to release before the holiday buying season), in Nov. of 2007, which is 2 weeks away?????? What is reality????

Im saying one of these devices is nearly complete and Nokia would like to get it out before q4 07 but it most probabaly wont. But make no mistake these devices are very much real.
post #51 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by bavlondon2 View Post

Im saying one of these devices is nearly complete and Nokia would like to get it out before q4 07 but it most probabaly wont. But make no mistake these devices are very much real.

Based on the rumors the iPhone was 'real' two years ago but Apple doesn't pre-announce like this. I could believe there is a working prototype but release seems like its quite a ways off or else they would have actually annouced something more agressive.
post #52 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

Based on the rumors the iPhone was 'real' two years ago but Apple doesn't pre-announce like this. I could believe there is a working prototype but release seems like its quite a ways off or else they would have actually annouced something more agressive.

Its much furthr along than you would believe. Like I said, wait till November. :-)
post #53 of 56
Thread Starter 
I could believe a November announcement from Nokia. Its just that Nokia has a generally annoying habit of announcing and then delivering many many months later. I waited 8 months for the N80 to be finally sold from when it was announced.

I imagine Nokia has been working on an iPhonesque phone since a long time and now have bumped up the priority.

Bav, any chance of knowing some features? haptic screen? gps?

If November is true it will be perfect "coincidence" to try and disrupt the iPhone launch in UK and Germany, possibly a bit in France too.
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post #54 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by bavlondon2 View Post

As for SE being their main competitor thats wrong again as Moto just bought half of UIQ, its Moto who will next year bring out more innovative UIQ products so if anyone is to compete with the share its Moto.

I'll believe it when I see it. Moto jump between platforms at a whim on underpowered hardware with their own ridiculously slow software and bad UIs on top. 50% of UIQ? That's a kneejerk reaction to Apple if I ever saw one. I don't really want to attach cognitive reasoning to Moto but I'm sure they just thought 'Apple have a touch based UI - we'll buy half of UIQ who already have one.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

I really can't see it as a direct answer to the Apple iPhone until they implement a touchscreen finger-based UI. And I don't think Nokia needs to catch up with UIQ as a stylus driven UI doesn't enhance usability. A stylus-based UI adds capability and features, which I think is something Nokia is willing to add in order to compete.

I'd disagree but then I actually use UIQ all the time. It's not just a stylus UI. The jog dial plays an important role for one handed operation although SE lost their way a bit with the latest devices that only have 3 way dials. You spend very little time using the stylus. You can also use them with your finger although the screen is generally too small for that. It wouldn't take much to add Apple's style of finger sensitivity to more properly locate the centre of the finger tip although I wonder how well Apple has patented that kind of technology.


Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

Stylus driven designs are not user friendly.

I'll remember that next time I'm writing/drawing in my paper journal I carry around with me instead of a laptop. I've tried most gizmos from a Psion Organizer through Z88, Psion 3, Palm Vx and various phones and keep coming back to a moleskine and my favourite Rotring Altro stylographic pen (of which I bought 10 of on eBay so I've a lifetime supply).

I find real paper and real pens quicker and more useful than anything anyone has done on a computer yet and don't see that ever changing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

They are business friendly (maybe), nerd-friendly (what isn't), but not something that enhances the user experience which is Apple's niche. My supposition that it's more of an answer to PalmOS and Windows Mobile is due to the UI design in the video. UIQ is another factor (even though Nokia competes fine against them without a stylus) I suppose. I said PalmOS more as an example of a UI that was designed for a stylus, but a finger can also be used in limited situations. Windows Mobile is like that too, but is something I think Nokia is worried about because its a more immediate threat to high end phone sales (~$500+ range). WM obviously has a similar in style type of UI as the one in the Nokia video. WM is also in a lot of high phones, especially from HTC, with several from Moto, Samsung, Palm, and maybe LG.

That's only really true of America, which is a tiny small market for Nokia and for smartphones. Both Palm and Windows Mobile don't really show on the radar here in Europe. The devices are mostly ugly, big and clumsy and mostly only used by businesses, not consumers. Apple are going after consumers which is Nokia and SE's ground.



Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

These WM phones are kitchen sink phones, and can vector into Nokias high end N-series phones. SE has a phones too that can do this, but I think the market coming from WM is bigger due to more devices, especially the stylus part.

There may be more devices with Windows Media - it seems HTC release one every month - but they account for only a few percent of smartphones in Europe. Palm and Blackberry were only 1-2% last time I looked. That's why I'd say Nokia aren't so bothered with them as competition and incidentally why they've left Symbian stagnate to some extent - no competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

The video from Nokia in this thread appears to more an answer to this sort of market. This type of UI would be something they could have had in their labs for awhile, and be able to productize in a 6 to 8 months if the need warrants. For Apple's UI to be re-created, I think that's another year, maybe 2009, at least.

It looked almost exactly like SE's Walkman media interface with added Apple page flips.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

For a direct answer to Apple from Nokia, that happened a couple of months ago at Nokia's Go:Play event where Nokia introduced a media portal store, 4 phones (N95-3, N81, 5310, 6310) specialized for media (especially music) with refined UIs to be release Q4 07. They weren't finger-touch-based ones though. Also included was a market freezing video of an actual iPhone-like cell phone design with finger-based UI. It was all video, no live hardware meaning that they aren't very close to a product at all.

That's the video shown in this thread. The phone is a Nokia N81.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

Nokia and Apple are going to war, make now mistake about that.

Yep. That's my general thought about Nokia's sudden conversion to touch based UIs after years of going off on a tangent with S60 when UIQ was more true to the original Psion UI, which incidentally was finger based, not stylus based.


Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

Which phones?

The SE W910i is being shown all over the TV here in the UK...

http://www.sonyericsson.com/spg.jsp?...=pp1&pid=10982

It features 'Shake Control' to change tracks. Nice idea IMHO.
post #55 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZO View Post

I could believe a November announcement from Nokia. Its just that Nokia has a generally annoying habit of announcing and then delivering many many months later. I waited 8 months for the N80 to be finally sold from when it was announced.

I imagine Nokia has been working on an iPhonesque phone since a long time and now have bumped up the priority.

Bav, any chance of knowing some features? haptic screen? gps?

If November is true it will be perfect "coincidence" to try and disrupt the iPhone launch in UK and Germany, possibly a bit in France too.

If true, and this 'explanation' make more sense than any other and is consistent with what's already been announced, then this shows that Nokia is truly concerned with the impact of the iPhone. This is classic smoke and mirrors marketing. Look at GE as a master of this, especially in medical instruments. In the 1980's they got themselves behind in CT scanners and used their market position to 'pre-announce' their new CT scanner. Everyone then waited ( and waited and waited) for GE, freezing out competition, until GE finally delivered something with reduced functionality from the announcement. Good business practice but not very nice to the consumers.

Apple's intro of the iPhone doesn't really fit this as 1) they were new to the field and had no market position to leverage, 2) they were highly specific about features, availability, and pricing.
post #56 of 56
Physguy I only know a few of the specs but just for arguments sake here ill call phone 1 the lesser of the 2 and phone 2 the greater.

Phone one is the one which is closest to completion and will feature a 2mp camera as well as GPS and WIFI. This will also be 3G. Not sure about the use of haptics to be honest as some of these devices as you have seen will co feature a stylus for input as well as fingers which is a good thing sometimes. I know the iphones UI is fantastic but sometimes its just nice to have a choice of inputs rather than being forced on something which is what Apple really like to do.

Phone2 should be HSDPA, have WIFI, GPS. Now this is the one that is closest to the iphone in terms of the way it looks. Its the same shape only a bit thicker (it is 3g after all and needs a decent sized battery) and will have a 3.2 mp cam.

At least one if not of these phones will be shown in November so keep your eyes peeled. The freeway and other stuff is also quite big but its all just a smokescreen to get everyone talking about the possbilities of S60 and then bam.....you will see them. :-)
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