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Leopard system requirements, upgrade options, and discounts - Page 2

post #41 of 92
Are Apple going to be more strict with their licensing this time? Is there going to be any form of activation required? Can I install a single user license on my desktop AND laptop since I am just the one user of both computers? Will this be prevented or is Apple still assuming an "honesty" policy?
post #42 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

Drat! (And actually, that's what I figured...my "no" was in reference to my 2nd question.) Thanks for the info.

Well, there is nothing stopping you from 'slipstreaming' SP2 onto an XP or XP SP1 CD. This is not officially supported by Apple, but I have heard many reports that this works fine.

YMMV...

FYI - Paul Thurrott's SuperSite has a good tutorial of how to do this (assuming you know your way around a Windows machine).

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase...slipstream.asp
post #43 of 92
post #44 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by petrokalis View Post

Well, there is nothing stopping you from 'slipstreaming' SP2 onto an XP or XP SP1 CD. This is not officially supported by Apple, but I have heard many reports that this works fine.

YMMV...

FYI - Paul Thurrott's SuperSite has a good tutorial of how to do this (assuming you know your way around a Windows machine).

http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase...slipstream.asp

Sweet! Thanks for the tip. I'm thinking about getting an Intel mini when 10.5 is out (replace a G4 mini), but shelling out $300 to install Windows on a $600 computer just seemed kind of silly.
post #45 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolmac View Post

What I don't get with Apple and MacMall is both say order for delivery on Oct 26th but do you have to choose the most expensive overnight shipping to actually receive it on Oct 26th? Amazon says this product ships on Oct. 26th.

I'm doing the free shipping. From what I remember, Tiger was delivered on the release date by Amazon. If I get it a few days later, no big deal.
post #46 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Up to five years old is fair, IMO.

...

Ok. What I really meant by that was the version of the machine. With the change to Intel, older PPC machine age faster in terms of performance, so less time will have passed before the machine becomes to weak to perform well.

The big problem now is the Core functions being executed on the GPU.

The older GPU's available for the G$'s were much weaker in programmable performance than more recent boards. That will throw much work back onto the CPU, causing major slowdowns. Even weaker GPU's today are much better than the 9800 Pro board in my old Digital Audio model, even though that was a pretty high end board for the Mac back in the day.
post #47 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

Sweet! Thanks for the tip. I'm thinking about getting an Intel mini when 10.5 is out (replace a G4 mini), but shelling out $300 to install Windows on a $600 computer just seemed kind of silly.

Slipstreaming worked fine on my MacBook Pro Core 2 Duo. Of course, you need a Windows computer to do the slipstream, but it only took an hour or so and like I said, it worked perfectly.
post #48 of 92
I bought a Macbook Pro three and a half weeks ago, so I phoned the UK Applestore to ask for a discount and they offered me Leopard for £50 off the list price, which I thought was pretty fair.
post #49 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Ok. What I really meant by that was the version of the machine. With the change to Intel, older PPC machine age faster in terms of performance, so less time will have passed before the machine becomes to weak to perform well.

The big problem now is the Core functions being executed on the GPU.

The older GPU's available for the G$'s were much weaker in programmable performance than more recent boards. That will throw much work back onto the CPU, causing major slowdowns. Even weaker GPU's today are much better than the 9800 Pro board in my old Digital Audio model, even though that was a pretty high end board for the Mac back in the day.


Yeah. I'm still gonna go with five years.

Regardless of the technical reasons (or excuses, depending on PoV), ppl still don't want their machines cut out of the upgrade cycle too quickly. That's one of the knocks on Vista, after all.

We really CAN'T have it both ways... it can't be "Well, that's because Macs have a longer useful lifespan!" in response to complaints about how Macs are more expensive than PCs, while at the same time shouting "Upgrade your damn Jurassic era Mac!" when someone complains that the machine they bought new only three years ago is cut out of the Leopard loop. \


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post #50 of 92
Re: the specs:

Does the 9 gigs required for installation come BACK after the installation is finished? How much more space goes poof when the new OS is installed? I can't really believe that the system is 9 gigs - BIGGER - than the one that's already installed - but then I don't know how much you really define size with any of these installs ANYWAY considering you've got libraries, the system, and the apps it comes with...
post #51 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgabrys View Post

Re: the specs:

Does the 9 gigs required for installation come BACK after the installation is finished? How much more space goes poof when the new OS is installed? I can't really believe that the system is 9 gigs - BIGGER - than the one that's already installed - but then I don't know how much you really define size with any of these installs ANYWAY considering you've got libraries, the system, and the apps it comes with...

Most of it comes back. It's needed for swap files during the install.
post #52 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Yeah. I'm still gonna go with five years.

Regardless of the technical reasons (or excuses, depending on PoV), ppl still don't want their machines cut out of the upgrade cycle too quickly. That's one of the knocks on Vista, after all.

We really CAN'T have it both ways... it can't be "Well, that's because Macs have a longer useful lifespan!" in response to complaints about how Macs are more expensive than PCs, while at the same time shouting "Upgrade your damn Jurassic era Mac!" when someone complains that the machine they bought new only three years ago is cut out of the Leopard loop. \

Three years is a reasonable and healthy life span if you're a creative pro.

If you want to hang on your computer for 5+ years, then you probably won't be bothered by not having the latest and the greatest.
post #53 of 92
Great discouns, but what about the European buyers ?

I've bought my iMac a few weeks ago through the Dutch Apple Store online, will I qualify for the discount ?
post #54 of 92
I just bought an iMac yesterday at a certified reseller in Belgium. I'm also wondering what the up-to-date policy is outside of the US and Canada. Would be nice to get an upgrade for something like 10 euros instead of having to buy it for full price.
post #55 of 92
I've contacted the Dutch Apple Store Support and they confirmed that this offer is also available for European customers.

Just change the URL http://www.apple.com/macosx/uptodate/ to the site in your country.

For the Netherlands it will be: http://www.apple.com/nl/macosx/uptodate/
post #56 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tygernoot View Post

I just bought an iMac yesterday at a certified reseller in Belgium. I'm also wondering what the up-to-date policy is outside of the US and Canada. Would be nice to get an upgrade for something like 10 euros instead of having to buy it for full price.

To "Tygernoot" and the other guys wondering about international eligibility for 10.5 upgrades, I was wondering the same thing.

I bought an iMac on oct. 02. in Denmark, and could not find an Apple "up-to-date" page at the .dk site.

On a whim and being optimistic I tried the following:

at the "original" up-to-date page
http://www.apple.com/macosx/uptodate/

I just inserted "dk/" into the url to get, - success
http://www.apple.com/dk/macosx/uptodate/

So, - you might like this url
http://www.apple.com/benl/macosx/uptodate/

-or this, if you are so inclined,
http://www.apple.com/befr/macosx/uptodate/
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post #57 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlvdijk View Post

I've contacted the Dutch Apple Store Support and they confirmed that this offer is also available for European customers.

Just change the URL http://www.apple.com/macosx/uptodate/ to the site in your country.

For the Netherlands it will be: http://www.apple.com/nl/macosx/uptodate/

@ rlvdijk:
Ooops, I got cought up on the phone, didn't see your reply to this thread.

Well well, now we know for sure international customers are welcome,
not always the case with Apple, or?
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post #58 of 92
Strange... Amazon UK don't appear to list Leopard at all... I'm sure they used to but searching for Leopard now just brings up a whole list of books - if anyone could point me at the item itself I'd be most grateful, seems we're not going to get any discount here

Just as an aside, does the family license cover multiple locations or is it all machines in one house?
post #59 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

I'm going to guess the answer is "no", but for those of you familiar with Boot Camp's XP SP2 requirement...does it have to be an SP2 install disc? Or can I install the earlier version XP from the disc I have and then install the SP2 update?

This won't have changd from Boot Camp beta. You need an XP SP2 install CD.

An original XP or XP SP1 will not work, but there is a procedure called "slipstreaming" which can be used to burn a SP2 install CD from an earlier one. I don't know the details, and I expect it would have to be done on a PC with the right software. Try doing a Google search for "XP slipstream".
post #60 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoughBoy View Post

I recently became an ADC Select member. Does anyone know when members receive the shipping version of Leopard? Is it included with the normal monthly mailings?

I was a Select member back in the Jaguar era. The new system release CD turned up with the monthly mailings. They might have occasionally done a special mailing to get a major release to ADC members earlier.
post #61 of 92
Thanks for the info rlvdijk and tinker. Only one week to go before Leopard. I'm curious to see it in action.
post #62 of 92
Seems like a bigger jump in requirements than previous versions of the OS.

My 400 Mhz G3 Powerbook will have to be content running Tiger until I buy a new computer.
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post #63 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr O View Post

Three years is a reasonable and healthy life span if you're a creative pro.

What if you're not? Something like half of Apple's new customers over the past few years are Windows switchers... I doubt they're all 'creative pros'. Neither is everyone on the Apple side, obviously. The nice thing about Apple's success is that they've expanded well beyond their old base.

Quote:
If you want to hang on your computer for 5+ years, then you probably won't be bothered by not having the latest and the greatest.

Oh c'mon, consumers want it all. And one of the great reasons to buy a Mac is that they generally do have longer usable lifespans than Windows PCs. Well, usually anyways.

Hey, its not just the ppl who can't upgrade who are missing out, it's Apple also... I'm sure they'd like our $129 too.

But I can't give it to 'em if I can't upgrade. Ah well.

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post #64 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

Drat! (And actually, that's what I figured...my "no" was in reference to my 2nd question.) Thanks for the info.

You can "slipstream" the sp1 and sp2 updates into a Windows XP installation folder (\\i386) and create a new iso to burn to a Windows Xp SP2 install disk.

Instructions are here.

Or search for "slipstream windows xp sp2".
post #65 of 92
Five years is a MINIMUM that older machines need to be supported to the current OS. Considering the thousands of dollars invested, the decided lack of physical upgrade paths in most of Apple's machines, even that would be horrendously poor customer service if that was as far back as it went.

When you spend three grand on something, it's still brand new after three years. At five years, MAYBE it's time to start looking for a CPU or GPU upgrade, but you should still have quite a while to go before you have to even start thinking about replacing it.
post #66 of 92
I don't want to see us get stuck in the MS quagmire of supporting something that should have been retired.

The difference of the OS upgrades, while they have great new features, are rarely required for the use of the machine, if it's for the home, I agree that five years is certainly a reasonably long enough time, though for some features, even a machine of that age may not be able to use them.

When Apple has, in the past, made statements that older machines supported the new OS versions, they have been sued, because dumb consumers expected those old machines to support all of the new features that required a new CPU, or GPU to support. They also expected the new OS to run at the speed newer machines ran at, not understanding that machines with G3's without AltiVec, couldn't do things such as the rippling water effect.

But, they sued anyway, and Apple lost some of those suits.

Due to this stupid, "I'll sue if I'm not completely happy" attitude, Apple has been much more conservative in recent years.

I agree with their policy. We can see what's happening with the iPhone users who are suing all over the place, even though they do know the phone won't do certain things, and knew it before they purchased it.

So, a lot of this has to do with liability, the fear of being sued by not the brightest, but greedy, consumers who will take every chance, along with their lawyers, to make a buck.

I hope you don't doubt this is true, as you can see it all around you.

As far as professional use is concerned. Assuming the person IS a professional, and is not a deluded hobbyist who gets an occasional minor job, and convinces themselves that it then makes them a pro, then they should know that they can, and always should, amortize their machine over several years. Their accountant (they do have one, don't they?) will show how that will save them a good amount of money over that time.

A pro doesn't wait five years to get a new machine. Three years for any professional needing to be competitive in a way that involves technology is about the limit, no matter how much was paid for the machine.

If you ARE a pro, then you should be able to pay for that amortized machine in a fairly short time.
post #67 of 92
^^^

A very good post.
post #68 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

When Apple has, in the past, made statements that older machines supported the new OS versions, they have been sued, because dumb consumers expected those old machines to support all of the new features that required a new CPU, or GPU to support. They also expected the new OS to run at the speed newer machines ran at, not understanding that machines with G3's without AltiVec, couldn't do things such as the rippling water effect.

But, they sued anyway, and Apple lost some of those suits.

Due to this stupid, "I'll sue if I'm not completely happy" attitude, Apple has been much more conservative in recent years.


Great. I guess we can cross off superior longevity/upgradeability as a mitigating reason as to why Macs cost more. Three years and you're shut out, in some cases. Yay. \

And to think I was one of the ppl pointing out how Vista shuts lots of not-so-old PCs out of the upgrade path on the Windows side. Guess it's pretty much all the same thing now, for good or ill.

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post #69 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Great. I guess we can cross off superior longevity/upgradeability as a mitigating reason as to why Macs cost more. Three years and you're shut out, in some cases. Yay. \

And to think I was one of the ppl pointing out how Vista shuts lots of not-so-old PCs out of the upgrade path on the Windows side. Guess it's pretty much all the same thing now, for good or ill.

...

Not really. You don't need that last upgrade if you will be planning to upgrade your home machine in the next year or so. An upgrade these days lasts over two years, possibly two and a half from now on.

So, unless you *need* or really *want* some particular program that simply won't run in the last version, then you don't need it.

That doesn't mean that you don't want it. But, that's different.

But, think of the good side, you can put that money towards the new machine.

Besides, if you really want to run it, and Apple has truly shut you out, then you can always get the latest version of Ex_Post_Facto, and install through that, if you don't mind the speed, or possible lack of features, though that may not be the case here, just speed.

Remember Aperture!

And, as I said, if you are a pro, then it's not the OS that's holding you back, because it will work fine on a three year old machine, but the speed of the machine itself. You can't charge by the hour, or even by the job, if it takes you 50% longer to do something that a newer machine can do, because then you're earning 50% less per hour. No pro would ever do that because of the cost of a machine. You can't raise your prices by 50% either, because no one else will, and what does that mean?

These are the facts of life, and it applies to machines made by everyone, including Sun, IBM, etc.
post #70 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Not really. You don't need that last upgrade if you will be planning to upgrade your home machine in the next year or so.


I honestly don't know when I'll be upgrading. I know I won't be paying Job's ridiculous price of $2000 for a 15" notebook, so I could be waiting a looooong time.

And Mel, I understand you're trying very hard to put a happy face on it, but fact is, Apple used to let you upgrade the OS on your Mac for many years after you bought your machine, and that was a nice edge Macs had over PCs. But not so much now, regardless the reason, and it is indeed a bummer, whether or not you believe I 'need' Leopard or not. \

Like I said, I won't be advocating Macs over PCs to friends/family based on longevity anymore. Three years is simply too short a period of time to be shut out of Leopard... end of story.

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post #71 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

I honestly don't know when I'll be upgrading. I know I won't be paying Job's ridiculous price of $2000 for a 15" notebook, so I could be waiting a looooong time.

And Mel, I understand you're trying very hard to put a happy face on it, but fact is, Apple used to let you upgrade the OS on your Mac for many years after you bought your machine, and that was a nice edge Macs had over PCs. But not so much now, regardless the reason, and it is indeed a bummer, whether or not you believe I 'need' Leopard or not. \

Like I said, I won't be advocating Macs over PCs to friends/family based on longevity anymore. Three years is simply too short a period of time to be shut out of Leopard... end of story.

.

So much NOT "End of story". Either you're not reading my posts thoroughly, or you have your mind made up.

Are your friends and family high end power users that need the top model Mac Pro?

If not, then you can sit back, the three year life doesn't apply. I thought I made that pretty clear.

Also, you're confusing the concept of getting the latest upgrade, which, after all, is NOT a new OS, merely an upgrade.

That doesn't lessen the value of the machines that are available. Most new programs will work just fine on them, as few developers write their programs to only work on the latest release, but usually at least the one before as well. This means that machines five, six, and possibly even seven years ago, will work.

As you're not talking about pro apps here as I was, there's no problem. And, as I said, there is a way of getting the OS on older machines, as long as you are willing to put up with slower performance, which has ALWAYS been true for New OS upgrades on machines that were five years old, or used an older chip. Nothing new here.

The last upgrade closed out a lot of machines as well, and that was two and a half years ago.

Macs are still far more viable than PC's of the same age. That hasn't changed either.

You are comparing it to Vista Aero, which obsoleted machines bought just a year earlier, if they weren't high end machines when bought. This isn't a fair comparison then, as we're talking about Mac machines for home use that are about five years old.

If you want to buy the cheapest Home version of Vista without the Aero GUI, then a machine bought three years ago MAY work.

But the full version of 10.5, the only version available, will work in full GUI mode on that five year old machine.

So, where's the lack of longevity? Compared to what? Mainframes?
post #72 of 92
do i have to do this prior to my leopard install (coming from amazon)??

if so i just want to do it right....last firmware update to my g3 caused the screen to go black and reguired a service guy to fix it

any tricks...preps...cautions ....so i turn sleep off etc before i do the firmware update or just go with the flow and follow the simple instuctions???? how many have done this and what should i expect.....is it necessary for leopard??
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post #73 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

Yes, it's extremely disappointing. They seemed to have moved the roughly 10% education discount for hardware over to software as well.

Educational institutions can apparently still buy it for $69, so you may be able to get it through them.

Apple doesn't really check educational status. Maybe too many people were taking advantage of that? The counter then would be well why wouldn't apple just put in some safeguards, rather than just taking the good discount away.

My son's Kindergarden teacher has a good lesson for everyone complaining about the EDU pricing.
Quote:
You get what you get and you don't throw a fit.

Apple is under no obligation to give an education discount at all, the fact that they do is a good public service. The fact that you can take advantage of it is great, but it is not an entitlement. Apple's full price for the OS is still a good deal when you compare it to every other retail OS on the market. When you compare it to Windows it is an even better deal, don't forget that Apple "gives" away their development environment which includes support for most of the common computer languages as well as a rough equivalent to Visual Basic with AppleScript and AppleScript Studio. To get that for Windows I believe will cost you additional on top of the higher priced OS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aplnub View Post

1.6 GHz for the DVD player???? Come on, that is pretty weak of Apple. That knocks out many G4 iBooks, if not all?

If you read the 1.6 for the DVD player is for improved de-interlacing, I take that to mean that it will run on a slower computer fine but without the new de-interlacing routines.
post #74 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

So much NOT "End of story". Either you're not reading my posts thoroughly, or you have your mind made up.


Bingo (on the last part).

Sorry Mel, you can argue 'til the Tuesday after Doomsday on this one, but fact is, three years is simply too soon to be shut out of a major OS upgrade... ppl expect better from Apple.

Far as Tiger shutting some ppl out, all I can say is, it was released in Q2 '05, yet ran on any G3 cpu and up, and G3s were intro'd way back in '97(!). I was still shut out of Tiger on my old 'Summer 2000' iMac though (no built-in Firewire), but I didn't complain about it 'cuz I had gotten it five years prior to Tiger, which I figured was a reasonable time frame for Apple to drop OS upgrade support. But 3 years?? No, that's simply not cool.

I, and some others I know in the same boat, aren't happy about it, and we just won't be.

I'm sorry if us being unhappy makes you unhappy, but there it is.

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post #75 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Bingo (on the last part).

Sorry Mel, you can argue 'til the Tuesday after Doomsday on this one, but fact is, three years is simply too soon to be shut out of a major OS upgrade... ppl expect better from Apple.

Far as Tiger shutting some ppl out, all I can say is, it was released in Q2 '05, yet ran on any G3 cpu and up, and G3s were intro'd way back in '97(!). I was still shut out of Tiger on my old 'Summer 2000' iMac though (no built-in Firewire), but I didn't complain about it 'cuz I had gotten it five years prior to Tiger, which I figured was a reasonable time frame for Apple to drop OS upgrade support. But 3 years?? No, that's simply not cool.

I, and some others I know in the same boat, aren't happy about it, and we just won't be.

I'm sorry if us being unhappy makes you unhappy, but there it is.

.

So you really aren't reading my posts on this?

Nowhere did I say that Apple's machines would be too obsolete after three years to use the latest upgrades to the OS.

In fact, If you DO read my posts, several times I said that five years seems reasonable for home machines. I actually agreed with you.

The three years for pro machines is not about the OS, its just that for high end pro use, the hardware is considered to be too slow. Some users think that's true after two years. I used to replace my highest end machines afrer two years. That's going back to the very early '90's. Nothings changed.
post #76 of 92
Not sure why you're making this complicated. Yes, I'm talking about consumer machines. Glad you agree that five years is a reasonable timeframe for OS support. But Apple didn't do that, they did three years for a significant number of ppl. It sucks. What more needs to be said?

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post #77 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Not sure why you're making this complicated. Yes, I'm talking about consumer machines. Glad you agree that five years is a reasonable timeframe for OS support. But Apple didn't do that, they did three years for a significant number of ppl. It sucks. What more needs to be said?

.

What needs to be said is that your iBook will be equally functional on Oct. 27 as it is today. Apple has taken nothing away from you. Your machine IS supported, and will continue to be by Tiger. There are many, many great programs available for Tiger. Support for existing OS (Tiger) continues and it is a SEPARATE issue from upgrading.

So, quit saying that you bought your machine 3 years ago and it isn't supported. The ibook G4 was introduced in 2003 with the low-end model at 800MHz going up through 1GHz. The models sold in mid-late 2004 (3 years ago) were all above 1GHz. All of these machines are supported by Leopard as I understand it (G4 > 800 MHz). You must have bought an already discontinued machine--and you must have known that at the time?

EDIT: typos
post #78 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyinRyan View Post

The Apple Store for Education online is quoting me $116 for a single user and $199 for a family pack. I should call MacMall...


Visit your campus store where you might be able to get it cheaper. Some people have found it at a substantially lower price there than elsewhere.
post #79 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianus View Post

UGH. Are you kidding me? This has been touted as a built-in feature since day one, and now it's no different from Tiger's Front Row in being limited solely to those machines that shipped with it? So after all this time and paying $130, we'll STILL have to use hacks just to run it on a pre-Oct 2005 machine, despite the fact that it works fine from the keyboard or with an alternate remote? What a load of...

This is really disappointing. My SonyEricsson phone is a bluetooth remote for my Powerbook so why can't I use Front Row. Oh well I'm sure Andrew Escobar will work his magic quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

Checking Leopard's iSync page, it doesn't look like Apple add very many (if any at all) new phones to the list of supported devices. Makes me wonder if iSync (the application, not the Sync Services framework) is going to be just another in the long line of cool technologies that Apple has abandoned. Ever since contact/calendar-to-iPod syncing was taken over by iTunes, it seems that iSync has been stagnant.

That sucks because iSync and many of those phones offer better integration and more capability than the iPhone does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by @homenow View Post

If you read the 1.6 for the DVD player is for improved de-interlacing, I take that to mean that it will run on a slower computer fine but without the new de-interlacing routines.

I had to read that line twice. It did scare me; I've only just put a new Superdrive in my TiBook.
post #80 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Not sure why you're making this complicated. Yes, I'm talking about consumer machines. Glad you agree that five years is a reasonable timeframe for OS support. But Apple didn't do that, they did three years for a significant number of ppl. It sucks. What more needs to be said?

.

I'm not making anything complicated. There was a question mentioning the Mac Pro. Ask that person why they are making this complicated.

No one who has a three year old machine has a concern about running the OS. What three year old Mac doesn't meet the new guidelines? I certainly don't know of any.
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