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Steve Jobs confirms native iPhone SDK by February - Page 3

post #81 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by NMR Guy View Post


It *is* Apple, and it *is* Steve Jobs in the captain's chair...

I'm getting SOOOOO sick of this Jobs bashing.
I've been using products he's brought to market for close to 30 years now and have always gotten WAY more than my money's worth.
He's apparently a jerk as a person. So were Jackson Pollock and Mozart.
The guy's brought a whole new level of art to technology.

I laugh hysterically at losers calling for his ouster as CEO.
post #82 of 144
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Originally Posted by pmjoe View Post

Ever heard the phrase, "you don't take candy from strangers"?

How about YOU don't install apps from unknown authors?

Well, as far as I can remember, I've never installed an application from anyone that I DID "know." A vetted approach compensates for that. Certs and signing even more. But yeah... no way I'd install any of the work by the group who's done the existing jailbreak methods. (Although I'm sure they're great guys, one and all.)
post #83 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

I'm sure it'll happen, sadly.

Personally I'd rather have my teeth pulled by a Lancastrian into DIY dentistry.

On the other hand, a Gizmo Project or decent SIP client I can use would be extremely useful. Or Apple could just get off the pot and add SIP to iChat properly.

Neither of those will give you unlimited nationwide calling for $30 a year, as Skype Unlimited does.
post #84 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Why is that? Perhaps 'cause Apple came the closest so far to making the perfect phone? And for that it deserves all the crap?

Yep. Apple got so close with the iPhone UI and design to a full 10/10 for many of us that the points deducted for the missing features and boneheaded business practices are frustrating and we need to vent. Stopping other people from fixing Apple's mistakes (as we see them) though took the grand prize.

To be honest, I vented almost as much when the SE P990i came out. I'm a long time P910i user and with the P990i SE got most things right as upgrades from the P910i but for two things - not enough RAM which coupled with no execute-in-place memory management made it reboot constantly and dropping the 5 way thumbwheel for a 3 way plus cancel button. Those two mistakes were enough for me to send it back after a month. They've now fixed the memory issues (mostly) with the P1i.

As I can't get 3G on O2 where I am, the iPhone is now looking more promising again with this announcement. Still a bit on the pricey side but hey, I'm an Apple geek.
post #85 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Neither of those will give you unlimited nationwide calling for $30 a year, as Skype Unlimited does.

You're right. I've unlimited WORLDWIDE calling for almost free with the two services I use and my local Trixbox server. Gizmo supports access to SIP servers other than SIPPhone, including a more complex local Trixbox server.

The trick is to use one service for incoming (and your free local number - I use SIPGate) and another for outgoing depending on which is cheapest. So far in 3 years I think I've spent about £10 total.

I'd rather not be using a mobile phone's data plan up on somebody else's Skype data passing through my phone.
post #86 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Yep. Apple got so close with the iPhone UI and design to a full 10/10 for many of us that the points deducted for the missing features and boneheaded business practices are frustrating and we need to vent. Stopping other people from fixing Apple's mistakes (as we see them) though took the grand prize.

Do you do the same for other items in your life?

Slam your auto's maker? Your home builder? Criticize your mother-in-law much for her influence on your wife?

Perhaps you should take your own mother to task. I'm thinking she didn't do a perfect job of raising you... no matter how "close" to perfect you are, your lack of perfection dooms her.

Me, I'm not perfect, my car's not perfect... and that's OK. I don't feel the need to vent. in fact, I know of nothing that's perfect 'cept for my wife.

She's the one that gifted my iPhone to me, bless her little heart!
post #87 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Stopping other people from fixing Apple's mistakes (as we see them) though took the grand prize.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's Apple's job, not that of some well-intended volunteer army. Pretty arrogant to swagger up and say 'you don't know what you're doing... stand aside while WE save you from yourself.'

They're doing just fine thanks.
post #88 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Do you do the same for other items in your life?

Slam your auto's maker? Your home builder? Criticize your mother-in-law much for her influence on your wife?

For the record...

My car is custom built - ground in the 1293 cylinder head myself. It just wasn't quite right as a 1275 A+. The differential wasn't up to the job either with the uprated boost on the turbo charger- swapped for a rally spec diff. The 3.2 final drive is nice for motorway speeds but these days I don't do much motorway so a 3.1 final might be better. Even the engine and suspension bushes have all been swapped for poly bushes to improve handling.

I suppose I could have stuck with Alec Issigonisis' original spec from 1959 but hey, where's the fun in that.

My house was built 180+ years ago so it'd be difficult to criticise the builder, but that's still not stopped me adding a garage. Cars weren't around in the 1830s so they can't be blamed for not predicting a usage they hadn't envisioned back then. The previous owners liked gold wallpaper. That came down in the first few days on moving in. No accounting for taste eh?

I'm not married but she is showing worrying traits inherited from her parents. I just hope she doesn't join the German Navy and target cargo ships in the Atlantic like her Dad.

So yeah, not just going with whatever is handed to me is the norm. Am I weird or what?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Me, I'm not perfect, my car's not perfect... and that's OK. I don't feel the need to vent.

Good for you. I prefer to fix things to how I like them or at least have them flexible enough that whatever comes along in the future doesn't make them unusable. That's me. I'm a programmer. Handed a computer, I'll want to stick my apps on it. It's what we do. And don't tell me the iPhone isn't a computer.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

Pretty arrogant to swagger up and say 'you don't know what you're doing... stand aside while WE save you from yourself.'

Yeah, and ?

Really, I'm quite stunned by the lack of ambition by the pair of you. Back when I was 13 and given a VIC 20, the first thing I did was learn BASIC, not sit there and watch the cursor blink.
post #89 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


Really, I'm quite stunned by the lack of ambition by the pair of you.... etc etc.

All well put, and hopefully this schism is now turning into a thing of the past.

I guess we just all choose where to point our ambition. I, like you, can't stand to not have a customization project going on my house. Used to be a time where I'd do the same with my computing environment, but frankly I'm sick to death of most technology from having to work with it all day as an IT/Security type. Guess that's why I'm enjoying the iPhone and touch so much. "Restoring my sense of child-like wonder" as FSJ says.

My only complaint all along has been this: Go ahead and modify, hack, and create. I really do admire that. But what bugs the hell out of me are the ones screaming on these lists to high heavens how Apple has screwed them, and those ravings making their way to mainstream media types like Leo Laporte who are now carrying an insane vendetta against Apple. Its kind of a 'keep it in the family, huh?' kinda thing.

Anyway, again... well put.
post #90 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

You're right. I've unlimited WORLDWIDE calling for almost free with the two services I use and my local Trixbox server. Gizmo supports access to SIP servers other than SIPPhone, including a more complex local Trixbox server.

The trick is to use one service for incoming (and your free local number - I use SIPGate) and another for outgoing depending on which is cheapest. So far in 3 years I think I've spent about £10 total.

Yeah, that all sounds like it's sooo simple that everyone will be going around picking servers and researching whether they should switch plans this month. So you spend a couple of cents a minute and call almost nobody. People who talk a few hundred minutes a month will be paying a little more than £10 over three years. Also, Sipgate doesn't do any good to people here in the US. Even if we could get the service, we wouldn't tell friends to call us at a "local" number in Europe.

Quote:
I'd rather not be using a mobile phone's data plan up on somebody else's Skype data passing through my phone.

What part of "over WiFi" is difficult to understand? What part of "not using AT&T's voice or data plans"? What part of "iPod Touch"? Since when does an iPod Touch use a mobile phone plan? What the hell good is it to use VoIP over AT&T's network on an iPhone, which already has a voice plan? You seem to be so hung up on hating Skype that you're not reading correctly.
post #91 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

But, as you admit, you're not an iPhone customer. Informed consumers that have put cash on the barrel (by definition) knew what they were getting and were satisfied.

Yes people have put their money on the barrel as you say. My point is that there is a lot of disappointment with respect to the iPhone out there. Especially with professional usage. Not everyone is satisfied with the state of the iPhone software even though they own an iPhone.

That doesn't mean that these people are set to trade in their iPhone either. All it really means is that the current suite of supplied iPhone apps has been found wanting. If you find yourself needing one of these features in a smart phone, it would be wise to hold off iPhone purchasing until the issues are resolved. From my perspective this is the smarter way to go about being an informed consumer.
Quote:
I don't believe there were any appreciable number of iPhone customers who were dissatisfied - as long as you define "iPhone customer" as someone who actually purchased one of the phones with their own money.

There are enough that if you take the time you can find references to specific issues in blogs, forums and other references on the net. Part of the problem might be that many people are simply not of the bent to leverage a smart phone. The fact that the iPhone is part of the iPod family kinda indicates the intensity of usage the iPhone is likely to get as a smart phone. As to the problems, Steve has all but admitted to at least one of them. Considering they are software bugs, in some cases, I don't see it as something to get worked up about either.

Make no mistake about it there are many people out there that are very happy with the iPhone. I just don't believe they are making use of the device or leveraging it as a smart phone. Often I get the sense in these forums that the people cheering for the iPhone have never leveraged a piece of high tech equipment in their lives.

Dave
post #92 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

For the record...

While we're on the record...

You never did point out how your mom failed. Really revealing.

And as for your proclivity to change things, well, good for you. Sounds like a nice garage. I suppose - as a property owner - you really wouldn't appreciate a neighbor coming in and ripping it apart 'cause your house is in "their neighborhood". People who legally own property understand how, just because someone THINKS they have an investment in your property, that really doesn't make it so. If it's yours, it's yours and you can do with it as you want, at least within legal constraints of your ownership of the property. That's the law. If your neighbor doesn't agree, screw him, 'cause what's yours is yours.

Just like Apple's stuff is theirs. AND since you're a programmer I know you understand the legal ramifications of intellectual property, no matter what your opinion on the topic is.
post #93 of 144
Quote:
My point is that there is a lot of disappointment with respect to the iPhone out there.

There is a small very vocal minority of disappointed. So far every poll that has been taken the iPhone earns extremely high points for customer satisfaction.

Quote:
I just don't believe they are making use of the device or leveraging it as a smart phone.

What and who determines when people are leveraging full use of a smart phone. I use many of the iPhone functions fairly regularly, but not all them regularly. At what point am I considered "leveraging" the use of the phone?
post #94 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

And as for your proclivity to change things, well, good for you. Sounds like a nice garage. I suppose - as a property owner - you really wouldn't appreciate a neighbor coming in and ripping it apart 'cause your house is in "their neighborhood". People who legally own property understand how, just because someone THINKS they have an investment in your property, that really doesn't make it so. If it's yours, it's yours and you can do with it as you want, at least within legal constraints of your ownership of the property. That's the law. If your neighbor doesn't agree, screw him, 'cause what's yours is yours.

Just like Apple's stuff is theirs. AND since you're a programmer I know you understand the legal ramifications of intellectual property, no matter what your opinion on the topic is.

Don't confuse intellectual property with real property. The way you describe it, it makes the concept of owning ideas less tenable, and that's not a good thing. If you are so sure of your position, why did you quote part of aegisdesign's post? The way you write it, it's as if you are using it as if you have his permission to do that, because those are his words, not yours to do what you please.

Your metaphor would be like an architect saying that the person that built a house based on legally purchased architect's plans is not allowed to add onto the house, because in your metaphor, the architect is the one that really owns the house. If I were an architect and I designed a house, I wouldn't mind if the owner eventually decides they need changes and does them. That's life. The thing I wouldn't want is for someone to be making their more copies of the house without payment for the design to be used in making more copies. Even if the design is mine, the actual constructed house is owned by the person with the deed.
post #95 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

And THAT is why I consider it "complaining". Of all the phones on the market and all the manufactures making phones, Apple was the ONE manufacturer that came under fire for not providing the whiners with their "perfect phone experience".

I think there is a bit of a backlash brewing in the Cell Phone industry. In part due to very anti-consumer practices and a bit due to the lack of ethics. Apple before the iPhone launch was seen as not being a part of this bull crap. Maybe that is to much to be expected, but Apple did have a reputation for being a consumer friendly company.

In any event it is very ignorant to use the word complaining when some body expresses their perspective about what is missing in a product. Standing up and speaking your mind is more about having a back bone that allows you to express your desires and not run with the lemmings. Frankly it very good for Apple to have people expressing themselves in a positive manner as it allows them to build better products.
Quote:
Why is that? Perhaps 'cause Apple came the closest so far to making the perfect phone? And for that it deserves all the crap?

While I don't ever expect to see a perfect piece of technology, the iPhone is very good indeed. It does however have a lot of artificial limitations, and a very unfinished feel to it. People are justified in pointing out what is important to them. This is not at all crap but rather positive consumer feedback.
Quote:

Damn. Let's just sue them.

Sue them!!!! Well Apple does get its fair share of stupid lawsuits there is no denying that. On the other hand they have brought a lot of the recent ones on themselves. Their first big mistake is falling into the same discredited practices that the rest of the cell phone industry is ripe with. Apple certainly didn't think different here. Second; if a corporation goes about business in a way that may break the law you as an individual have the right, even obligation some might say, to point that out. It is unfortunate that it does appear that Apple has prostituted itself to break into the cell hone industry and has done things in such a way that people think they have good solid legal recourse.

Dave
post #96 of 144
As for the crowd that would like Skype, and the like, added to the apps that the iPhone supports, I like that thinking. Do I think that it would hurt AT&T? NO. Hear my argument.

I would love to use WIFI to call South America, and to surf the net. But I would also like to call from just about anywhere and know the call will go through and be of good quality. So I am saying that I would love to use, fully, the WIFI when it is available, but then I don't want to lose the phone when I am not around WIFI. I also view data the same way, only I would say that WIFI data would be free, mostly, and WIFI would be faster, lots, and the time that I use WIFI data would not count against my AT&T data plan minutes, this is already available. I would still pay AT&T for a data plan just because there are times that I would like/need to get data but I would not be around WIFI. So internet calling enhances my iPhone experience and it is a service that is free for AT&T to provide and support. My guess is that this is one of those things that the phone companies will fight tooth and nail only to find that they are fighting an uphill battle, that they will eventually lose. And the first company to allow internet calling on their cell phones will shift the market, and make huge bucks doing so.
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post #97 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

There is a small very vocal minority of disappointed. So far every poll that has been taken the iPhone earns extremely high points for customer satisfaction.

To be honest I'm not one to chase polls so you will have to point out such polls and the audience targeted. In any event I'm not disagreeing with your position that there is a good indication of consumer satisfaction overall. What I'm pointing out is that the unit has not been as successful with respect to the world of smart phone users and potential smart phone users.

A lot of the frustration is due to bugs with syncing and such. The other big problem for smart phone users is the breadth of the supplied applications and the glaring missing apps. Part of the reason the iPhone may be getting such a god response is that many of the iPhone users are simply clueless about what they have in their hand.
Quote:
What and who determines when people are leveraging full use of a smart phone.

The power users obviously. I say that with all honestly as I currently don't have a smart phone in any sense of the word. Now seeing the need for one is another issue altogether. In any event if a power user has had XYZ phone for awhile and I go and pick up an XYZ phone, he would be in pretty good position to be able to judge how effectively I'm using its features.

Now there is the issue of which users expects what out of the phone. I may be perfectly happy not using the device to its full potential. If so that is fine but I really shouldn't be qualifying the unit as a smart phone.

Since I'm not happy with my current phone and I've identified some specific uses I'd like in a replacement/upgrade, it makes sense to see how the iPhone fits into this need. As good as it is iPhone is very frustrating. For example iPhone has the best web browser of the breed - good thing. However it leaves out Flash. I'm not saying that I like Flash either just that sometimes you need it. Similarly a disk mode or similar way to get to the on board store is very important. The problem is these little things add up to one exploiting full use of the iPhone.
Quote:
I use many of the iPhone functions fairly regularly, but not all them regularly. At what point am I considered "leveraging" the use of the phone?

When you start to take note of the bugs and limitations the device has or when you try to make use of the unit in ways Apple didn't plan for. Mind you there is nothing wrong with the use of a select sub set of the iPhones feature set, I pretty much do that with my pay as you go phone. In both cases the software suite is not being fully used.

Until todays announcement about a SDK I really had a hard time of seeing the smart in an iPhone. Sure it had a nice user interface, that is certainly good along with the iPod functions it offered up an interesting set of capabilities. These two features however are not enough to pull the iPhone out of the gutter with the $49 pay as you go phone. Both phones provide for an address book, calendar, timers, notes and other features, neither of them flexible enough to be called a smart phone.

For a cell phone to be called smart it really needs to be able to load custom apps and have some sort of scripting environment. I'm equating smart with being adaptable to user needs.

Dave
post #98 of 144
I am so happy that there is an SDK for the iPhone. I hope the first apps that come out are mobile versions of iWork. This would increase the power of the phone exponentially. Also, some games would be nice too.

Steve
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20" Aluminum iMac (August 2007) - Snow Leopard 10.6.4
13" MacBook Pro (2.53 Ghz) - Snow Leopard 10.6.4
64 GB iPad Wifi
32 GB iPhone 3GS
8 GB iPhone (Original)
2 iPod Minis (Blue, 4GB)
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post #99 of 144
I have been vocal about my frustration with what I called paternalistic approaches taken by Apple. I am not so smug that I cannot admit that it is a nice touch for him to discuss SDK on the Apple Website. I think it is well said, to the point, and done. I feel a lot better about my recent conversions to all Apple products for my business and personal.

Simply said, nice touch....
post #100 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Don't confuse intellectual property with real property. The way you describe it, it makes the concept of owning ideas less tenable, and that's not a good thing. If you are so sure of your position, why did you quote part of aegisdesign's post? The way you write it, it's as if you are using it as if you have his permission to do that, because those are his words, not yours to do what you please.

Your metaphor would be like an architect saying that the person that built a house based on legally purchased architect's plans is not allowed to add onto the house, because in your metaphor, the architect is the one that really owns the house. If I were an architect and I designed a house, I wouldn't mind if the owner eventually decides they need changes and does them. That's life. The thing I wouldn't want is for someone to be making their more copies of the house without payment for the design to be used in making more copies. Even if the design is mine, the actual constructed house is owned by the person with the deed.

Good topic.

Architects who make plans available for public purchase, do NOT give a warrantee with those plans. They are floor plans, not detailed construction plans. They are available through house plan magazines, and other places.

You can modify the plans to your hearts content.

But the architect has no responsibility for the finished product. You can't call him to complain. You can't sue him (well, you can, but you'd lose, assuming the judge didn't simply throw your case out).

However, the architect does own the copyright to the original plan sold. But, all that means is that you're not allowed to pass the plan off as your own, or make minor modifications, and pass it off as your own, or sell copies. Or give them away for the purpose of building another house.
post #101 of 144
Wow! is this off topic, or what?

post #102 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I think there is a bit of a backlash brewing in the Cell Phone industry. In part due to very anti-consumer practices and a bit due to the lack of ethics. Apple before the iPhone launch was seen as not being a part of this bull crap. Maybe that is to much to be expected, but Apple did have a reputation for being a consumer friendly company.

I think the backlash is in the US, where it should be. Almost everywhere else all or most phones are sold unlocked, even when they are fully subsidized. Locked phones are a HUGE disadvantage for the consumer. It's basically DRM for physical property.

The cell phone industry in Asia and Europe is fantastic for the consumer. We've got great choice of products and services, services are extremely competitive and cheap, and the laws allow for complete number and services portability. Early cancellation penalties are there to protect the cell phone companies, of course, but most phone companies provide good service and coverage in general, so even if we decide another company is better, we can usually endure our contract until it expires.

Even when our contracts are about to expire, our providers will offer us benefits for re-signing, like heavily discounted (unlocked) handsets.

So when I visit the US and see what you guys have to endure, I truly and honestly don't understand why more of you don't speak up.
post #103 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Yeah, that all sounds like it's sooo simple that everyone will be going around picking servers and researching whether they should switch plans this month. So you spend a couple of cents a minute and call almost nobody.

No, most of the time I don't spend anything per minute. It's not that complex. Gizmo supports two accounts simultaneously. It's three boxes to fill in. It's one of the simplest SIP clients to use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

People who talk a few hundred minutes a month will be paying a little more than £10 over three years. Also, Sipgate doesn't do any good to people here in the US. Even if we could get the service, we wouldn't tell friends to call us at a "local" number in Europe.

Perhaps they would. But then I'd be spending more on Skype as the $30 tariff isn't available here in Europe. The UK equivalent is £1.73 a month - not bad but I still don't like their P2P data going through my network or phone.

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Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

What part of "over WiFi" is difficult to understand? What part of "not using AT&T's voice or data plans"? What part of "iPod Touch"? Since when does an iPod Touch use a mobile phone plan?

If I'm at home/work, I've 3 computers and a VoIP router with two FXS lines already. Why would I use an iPod Touch (which has no Mic anyway) ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

What the hell good is it to use VoIP over AT&T's network on an iPhone, which already has a voice plan? You seem to be so hung up on hating Skype that you're not reading correctly.

Yes, sorry, I presumed you meant iPhone since there's no way it'd work on an iPod.

Using VoIP on a mobile plan doesn't cut into your allowed minutes. Using VoIP on a mobile also means the same number I use for work that looks like a land line can also be picked up on my mobile. There are many reasons to use VoIP on a mobile.
post #104 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

My only complaint all along has been this: Go ahead and modify, hack, and create. I really do admire that. But what bugs the hell out of me are the ones screaming on these lists to high heavens how Apple has screwed them, and those ravings making their way to mainstream media types like Leo Laporte who are now carrying an insane vendetta against Apple. Its kind of a 'keep it in the family, huh?' kinda thing.

Totally agree. Hack the iPhone and suffer the consequences quietly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

You never did point out how your mom failed. Really revealing.

I'm sure I'm quite a disappointment in some ways but that doesn't mean I shouldn't look to change. Getting back to iPhones though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

If it's yours, it's yours and you can do with it as you want, at least within legal constraints of your ownership of the property.

Exactly. If it's mine I can do what I want with it. It's not Apple's anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Just like Apple's stuff is theirs. AND since you're a programmer I know you understand the legal ramifications of intellectual property, no matter what your opinion on the topic is.

But I'm not selling Apple's software and hardware - I'm buying it and changing it, same as if I bought a car and added fluffy dice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

There is a small very vocal minority of disappointed. So far every poll that has been taken the iPhone earns extremely high points for customer satisfaction.

People who buy expensive products aren't the most objective in the world. They have to justify to themselves why they've spent hundreds on something, even if it's not perfect. The vocal minority are the ones Apple should be listening to as those are the ones that want more out of the product. It's 'The Emperors New Clothes'.
post #105 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

I suppose - as a property owner - you really wouldn't appreciate a neighbor coming in and ripping it apart 'cause your house is in "their neighborhood". People who legally own property understand how, just because someone THINKS they have an investment in your property, that really doesn't make it so. If it's yours, it's yours and you can do with it as you want, at least within legal constraints of your ownership of the property. That's the law. If your neighbor doesn't agree, screw him, 'cause what's yours is yours.

Just like Apple's stuff is theirs. AND since you're a programmer I know you understand the legal ramifications of intellectual property, no matter what your opinion on the topic is.

That's the whole problem these days. Companies want to sell you products, but act like they own them.
post #106 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

But I'm not selling Apple's software and hardware - I'm buying it and changing it, same as if I bought a car and added fluffy dice.

Do you own an iPhone?

If so, check out the info in "Settings -> General -> About -> Legal".
post #107 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Yes, sorry, I presumed you meant iPhone since there's no way it'd work on an iPod.

An iPod Touch (with Wi-Fi capability), and a native application able to communicate through the Line In pins of the dock connector (pins 25 and 26 for the Left and Right channels respectively, for the record) should have no conceptual problem Skyping.
post #108 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Do you own an iPhone?

If so, check out the info in "Settings -> General -> About -> Legal".


That doesn't necessarily make it so. Just look at the "not responsible for personal property left in cars" in every garage.

In that case, when you hand them the keys they are responsible. They just put up that sign to discourage you from exercising your rights.


Back on topic. I am glad that Apple has finally listened to this vocal minority. The iPhone will be tremendously better after structured 3rd party development takes place. There will be tremendous value added to the platform and improvements in countless ways. Until then however, I will not upgrade and will keep my 3rd party functionality intact.

Thanks Steve.
post #109 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmjoe View Post

That's the whole problem these days. Companies want to sell you products, but act like they own them.

They do own the part that makes the hardware work - the code. Whether that's a problem or not depends on what you want to do with what they own.

The consequences of purchasing a device that incorporates property that belongs to someone else is self inflicted. While I'm sure you can find someone who would love to discuss their personal opinion about such things, I'm not someone who choses to do so. While that might entertain some, I acknowledge that you are entitled to your opinion and that your opinion holds exactly as much weight as the opinion I hold.

I also acknowledge that where my opinion and the established social and legal code of the nation I live in vary, I'm as shit out of luck as you are with any opinion you might hold that conflicts with those codes. Sucks to be us, eh? I guess the difference between myself and someone who continues to rant against perceived injustices is - I take a longer view of things and realize that, typically, injustices usually are confronted and "right" wins out. Sort of like the SDK being announced.

If it's really a good idea and if it really is a benefit and if people really do want it, it'll happen without any teeth gnashing or mournful wailing. In fact, the gnashing of teeth and the wailing of the mournful is just irritating, especially since when it's expressed to me there's nothing I can do about it.
post #110 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Do you own an iPhone?

If so, check out the info in "Settings -> General -> About -> Legal".

Don't forget in all this, Taskiss, that Jobs has gone on record now officially stating that 3rd party native applications will be given legitimacy and support on the iPhone very soon. You're now officially arguing for the losing side of this debate.

But even before that announcement was made, I have read some arguments over the past few weeks that have led me to believe that maybe the 3rd-party application folks might actually have had a leg to stand on anyway.

Remember that the EULA of the desktop edition of Mac OS X also has the virtually the exact same license stipulation as the iPhone, saying that modifying any part of the Apple software, including the bootloader firmware, (except as permitted for the open-source components) is prohibited. But anybody who tried to argue that the act of installing 3rd-party applications on a desktop Mac is a violation of license would be laughed out of the room.

In the case of the iPhone users, I'd be interested to see exactly which binary code within Apple's software suite were actually modified in the act of installing the 3rd party software. (As opposed to being simply aggregated with that 3d party software.)

In any event, it seems quite clear by now that Apple never intended to pursue legal action against people who privately hacked their own phones. Rather, they seem content to leave them alone to curse themselves (and whoever else happens to be nearby to listen) if things go wrong.
post #111 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfmorrison View Post

Don't forget in all this, Taskiss, that Jobs has gone on record now officially stating that 3rd party native applications will be given legitimacy and support on the iPhone very soon. You're now officially arguing for the losing side of this debate.

Not at all. I'm arguing that it's Apple's call to do what they want. I'm arguing that the vision of what the iPhone is doesn't belong to anonymous Internet forum contributors. I'm arguing that people have their heads up their ass and are spending time being critical of an inanimate object they either openly or secretly covet.
Quote:
In the case of the iPhone users, I'd be interested to see exactly which binary code within Apple's software suite were actually modified in the act of installing the 3rd party software. (As opposed to being simply aggregated with that 3d party software.)

It doesn't matter what code was modified. The protections in place for Apple owned intellectual property was apparently circumvented by reverse-engineering the connectivity between the device and iTunes. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that to be an act in violation of the DMCA.
post #112 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Not at all. I'm arguing that it's Apple's call to do what they want. I'm arguing that the vision of what the iPhone is doesn't belong to anonymous Internet forum contributors. I'm arguing that people have their heads up their ass and are spending time being critical of an inanimate object they either openly or secretly covet.

Granted. But for all practical purposes, I suspect that no Tom, Dick, or Harry is ever going to go to jail or be required to pay Apple any damages because they used unofficial hacks to install Chess on their iPhone. So, running around quoting the EULA makes you come off sounding just as annoying as all the whiners you are complaining about.
post #113 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by lfmorrison View Post

Granted. But for all practical purposes, I suspect that no Tom, Dick, or Harry is ever going to go to jail or be required to pay Apple any damages because they used unofficial hacks to install Chess on their iPhone. So, running around quoting the EULA makes you come off sounding just as annoying as all the whiners you are complaining about.

Ah, but it's been explained to me that such behavior is totally justified and, in fact, has a noble purpose.

I'm apparently making the world a better place.

post #114 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepakhj View Post

#1 reason SDK wasn't announced before is due to lack of developers.

Lack of developers? Under that theory, no platform would ever have developers.

The most likely explanation...

Apple didn't want to release the iPhone and immediately portray it as unfinished. Doing so would have caused customers to put off buying an iPhone until it was "finished". News stories would have always had at least one sentence mentioning the how the iPhone was "unfinished".

The alternative is for a company to release and market products in their current state. There would have been no customer benefit for apple to announce their upcoming SDK plans. Perhaps a few people could have kept their panties out of a wad, but that is all.

Developers haven't been hurt either. Apple specifically told them that updates are likely to break 3rd party hacks. Developers already know that they're trying to develop software for a rapidly evolving platform and that a more finalized API set is under development.
post #115 of 144
Then again, think of the vast amount of learning that has occurred organically as a result of the iphone hack.

When Apple finally releases the SDK there will have been 9 months of unofficial hacking and many beta apps ready to go live in Feb. Win win.

Apple gave the dev community, intentionally or unintentionally, a challenge and they rose to it.

It will be nice to see polished apps for the iphone even if it means paying some amount for the added functionality.


On another note, this will be the beginning of the end for Apple/ATT partnership. As soon as Voip clients start springing up on the iPhone and more importantly on the Touch,
the game changes. Apple goes out in front again.

Steve always hated dealing with the orifices that are the cell phone companies. I am sure he has a plan to circumvent att just like the motorola fiasco that was the first iTunes phone.

iphone/iTouch + Airport +.mac= all in one solution for home communication

You heard it here first folks
post #116 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by TednDi View Post

You heard it here first folks

Eh? People have been talking about VOIP wifi handsets for many years now. Neither Apple nor the carriers are oblivious to the implications.
post #117 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Good topic.

Architects who make plans available for public purchase, do NOT give a warrantee with those plans. They are floor plans, not detailed construction plans. They are available through house plan magazines, and other places.

You can modify the plans to your hearts content.

But the architect has no responsibility for the finished product. You can't call him to complain. You can't sue him (well, you can, but you'd lose, assuming the judge didn't simply throw your case out).

However, the architect does own the copyright to the original plan sold. But, all that means is that you're not allowed to pass the plan off as your own, or make minor modifications, and pass it off as your own, or sell copies. Or give them away for the purpose of building another house.

I do agree, and thanks for filling in the blanks.
post #118 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by TednDi View Post

Apple gave the dev community, intentionally or unintentionally, a challenge and they rose to it.

What are you talking about?

http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/30/s...e-from-d-2007/
Quote:
Q: All indications appear that the iPhone is closed, we'd love to develop apps...

This is an important tradeoff between security and openness. We want both. We're working through a way... we'll find a way to let 3rd parties write apps and still preserve security on the iPhone. But until we find that way we can't compromise the security of the phone.

I've used 3rd party apps... the more you add, the more your phone crashes. No one's perfect, and we'd sure like our phone not to crash once a day. If you can just be a little more patient with us I think everyone can get what they want.

This was posted Posted May 30th 2007, a month before the first iPhone went on sale.

If ANYthing, the challenge was "Wait just a bit 'till we're ready" and the dev community stomped it's feet and wrote code that ended up bricking phones 'cause it made the devices incompatible with future updates of the OS.
post #119 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

What are you talking about?

http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/30/s...e-from-d-2007/
This was posted Posted May 30th 2007, a month before the first iPhone went on sale.

If ANYthing, the challenge was "Wait just a bit 'till we're ready" and the dev community stomped it's feet and wrote code that ended up bricking phones 'cause it made the devices incompatible with future updates of the OS.

It's not the third party software that caused the locking ruckus. It was the carrier unlocking. From what I've read, those that only added software only saw their software either deleted or hidden. But it was a problematic update because even some people that didn't touch the iPhone at all with unauthorized anything had bricked phones.
post #120 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

It's not the third party software that caused the locking ruckus. It was the carrier unlocking. From what I've read, those that only added software only saw their software either deleted or hidden. But it was a problematic update because even some people that didn't touch the iPhone at all with unauthorized anything had bricked phones.

My post was directly in response to TednDi's suggestion that Apple challenged the dev community. I make no excuses for the failure of the Apple update where unmodified devices are concerned, nor do I have to - Apple took responsibility for their update. If they broke it, they'll fix it free.
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