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More bad news out of Iraq...

post #1 of 101
Thread Starter 
Cemetary workers feeling the pinch

Showing that there are no depths low enough to plumb for bad new out of Iraq, the media, who can't report on schools opening, violence going down, General Petraeus being right and other assorted bits of news instead have to note that the financial well being of grave diggers is on the decline due to lower violence and death rates.

Quote:
A drop in violence around Iraq has cut burials in the huge Wadi al Salam cemetery here by at least one-third in the past six months, and that's cut the pay of thousands of workers who make their living digging graves, washing corpses or selling burial shrouds.

I think swallowing my own vomit is more tasteful than this.

Nick

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post #2 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Cemetary workers feeling the pinch

Showing that there are no depths low enough to plumb for bad new out of Iraq, the media, who can't report on schools opening, violence going down, General Petraeus being right and other assorted bits of news instead have to note that the financial well being of grave diggers is on the decline due to lower violence and death rates.



I think swallowing my own vomit is more tasteful than this.

Nick

Isn't this good news?

Who better to ask than those digging the graves in this particular cemetery.

Why don't you start a thread with nothing but good news out of Iraq?
post #3 of 101
This is a quote from the article:

Quote:
Shiites feel so strongly about being buried here that when it's too dangerous to travel, families have buried their loved ones elsewhere temporarily, then disinterred them for reburial here.

Which could easily mean that the violence has actually gone UP and that this is the real reason for the lack of burials.

And another thing; if so, is this not an article which is - contrary to the OP's claim - actually trying to spin this as good news?
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post #4 of 101
I think trumptman's comment should be interpreted as up to his neck in vomit-er-sarcasm.

Anyway, this hot CBS news reporter Lara Logan has something to say,

Quote:
Were doing extremely badly, from my point of view. I was asked if I felt any guilt for the fact that the world has an impression of the war in Iraq as being very bad and going very wrong. And I said I really dont because I cant imagine the last time anyone saw a dead American soldier. Weve hidden that from view. Nobody knows what that looks like, and Ive seen plenty of it. Its much worse than the picture, the image we even have of Iraq.

Logan is one of the few US reporters who is sticking their ass (cute one I must say) into the fray and going places where no reporter has gone before. Maybe being born in South Africa during Apartheid and 16 years reporting helps.

Link to video.
post #5 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by screener View Post

Isn't this good news?

Who better to ask than those digging the graves in this particular cemetery.

Why don't you start a thread with nothing but good news out of Iraq?

Well it would be good news, unless you choose to report on it from the perspective of the grave diggers so you can spin it as bad news.

It's sort of like when you report unemployment as 4.7% but then claim everyone has three jobs in the same sentence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

This is a quote from the article:

Which could easily mean that the violence has actually gone UP and that this is the real reason for the lack of burials.

And another thing; if so, is this not an article which is - contrary to the OP's claim - actually trying to spin this as good news?

So let me understand the reasoning here. The point would be to spin the increase in violence away by using financial hardship as a distraction. Interesting premise.

Quote:
I think trumptman's comment should be interpreted as up to his neck in vomit-er-sarcasm.

Tongue is a bit in cheek, but I don't know if I would call it sarcasm.

Quote:
Logan is one of the few US reporters who is sticking their ass (cute one I must say) into the fray and going places where no reporter has gone before. Maybe being born in South Africa during Apartheid and 16 years reporting helps.

While I appreciate your point Artman, I really don't recall the media ever showing the dead much before or with any sort of graphic detail in the past. Reporting is more varied and has more outlets than ever before. The information is always out there. The only thing that really matters is if people want to find it or have it spoon fed to them.

But what can we expect when the leading Democratic nominee for president was "lied" to by Bush because she was unwilling to read an intelligence report available to her and thus voted as he (and she) wanted.

Someday we will realize that people seek what they want, and ignore or don't seek that which they don't want. When people don't go looking for an intelligence report to find information to change their vote, it is because they already have the rationales they need to vote as they want.

Nick

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post #6 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

While I appreciate your point Artman, I really don't recall the media ever showing the dead much before or with any sort of graphic detail in the past. Reporting is more varied and has more outlets than ever before.

Which is why the 'approved' reporters need to be embedded. In a world of 'freedom' it is ever harder to control what people hear.

And remember; the dead are Shi'ites and there are US plans to kill a whole lot more Shi'ites in Iran so it's not politic to mention it too much. People might empathize with them - unlikely but the risk is there, however remote.
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post #7 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Well it would be good news, unless you choose to report on it from the perspective of the grave diggers so you can spin it as bad news.


I really have to question if you even read the whole article you linked too with any degree of care. I think that's an incredible mis-characterization of the article's content.
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post #8 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

While I appreciate your point Artman, I really don't recall the media ever showing the dead much before or with any sort of graphic detail in the past. Reporting is more varied and has more outlets than ever before. The information is always out there. The only thing that really matters is if people want to find it or have it spoon fed to them.
Nick

I guess you didn't grow up during the Vietnam war. Where on the front pages of newspapers there were photos of dead soldiers in body bags, in coffins and being delivered back home. Or the photo reports in Time, Life or Look magazine on the My Lai Massacre or burnt children running from their napalmed village. Even the daily body counts on the evening news gave some the impression that we were winning the war. Though later we found out that was false too.

The Internet has changed the view in what we see in the world and in Iraq. Never before have people been able to read and even witness the carnage and failure this occupation is. But as there was ignorant blindness during Vietnam (Silent Majority) so there is in the mainstream media itself. It's all bought and paid for. And unfortunately it seems the Internet may well be too someday.
post #9 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

I think trumptman's comment should be interpreted as up to his neck in vomit-er-sarcasm.

Anyway, this hot CBS news reporter Lara Logan has something to say,



Logan is one of the few US reporters who is sticking their ass (cute one I must say) into the fray and going places where no reporter has gone before. Maybe being born in South Africa during Apartheid and 16 years reporting helps.

Link to video.

Lara Logan is a saucy little devil. She must be a real adrenaline junkie. I liked Ashleigh Banfield also... wonder what happened to her?

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post #10 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Which is why the 'approved' reporters need to be embedded. In a world of 'freedom' it is ever harder to control what people hear.

And remember; the dead are Shi'ites and there are US plans to kill a whole lot more Shi'ites in Iran so it's not politic to mention it too much. People might empathize with them - unlikely but the risk is there, however remote.

First good discussion. I find it interesting how you and Artman come at this from two different angles. It makes for interesting reading. You believe the embedded reporters/propaganda reporters are minimizing the reporting of violence and death with regard to Shi'ites to help the Bush administration along with their goal of killing more of them. Art believes they are not reporting on our own military deaths to support, I suppose the continuation of the war as well. I guess the end goal is the same but the premises are different. You two huddle together and put them together for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

I really have to question if you even read the whole article you linked too with any degree of care. I think that's an incredible mis-characterization of the article's content.

I guess the person who wrote the headline misread it as well. I guess believing that the article reflects the headline "As violence falls in Iraq, cemetery workers feel the pinch,"
is just ludicrous.

I respect the fact that even if Seg and Art disagree with what I have posted, they address it substantively instead of just claiming that I can't read or believe what the words actually say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

I guess you didn't grow up during the Vietnam war. Where on the front pages of newspapers there were photos of dead soldiers in body bags, in coffins and being delivered back home. Or the photo reports in Time, Life or Look magazine on the My Lai Massacre or burnt children running from their napalmed village. Even the daily body counts on the evening news gave some the impression that we were winning the war. Though later we found out that was false too.

The Internet has changed the view in what we see in the world and in Iraq. Never before have people been able to read and even witness the carnage and failure this occupation is. But as there was ignorant blindness during Vietnam (Silent Majority) so there is in the mainstream media itself. It's all bought and paid for. And unfortunately it seems the Internet may well be too someday.

You are correct that having been born in 1970, I didn't witness Vietnam coverage first hand, or if I did, I was too young to understand and comprehend it. Vietnam coverage was the exception rather than the norm when compared to all military conflicts the U.S. has engaged in.

That said, while I can concede that a picture is worth a thousand words, they have more than printed the thousand negative words while contributing almost nothing positive. We can have thousands of hours of coverage about whether General Petraeus is a lying Bush drone, but no or next to no coverage about the fact that his numbers were accurate for example. If the government is engaging in propaganda via hiding the body bags, I can buy that assertion. I just find it harder to believe the media is aiding and abetting when there is no feel good, all is well, we are doing great news in place of the body bags.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #11 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I guess the person who wrote the headline misread it as well. I guess believing that the article reflects the headline "As violence falls in Iraq, cemetery workers feel the pinch,"
is just ludicrous.

I respect the fact that even if Seg and Art disagree with what I have posted, they address it substantively instead of just claiming that I can't read or believe what the words actually say.

Now you are mis characterizing my statements. I would certainly agree that the title is not a good one, and doesn't reflect the thrust of the article's content.

I'm not questioning your reading ability or comprehension in any way. I would speculate that you probably saw the title, read the first paragraph and simply drew your conclusion based upon a desire to be disgusted at the "liberal media." Or perhaps you just decided to take the quote out of context and feign outrage, I don't know.

The main thrust of the article seems to be a history of these cemetery workers over the years, through the ebs and flows of violence within their country, how they have a sense of the death rate, how the funerals work and being within the odd position of worsening violence in your country being good for you personally.

I just don't see how a reasonable person could get out this article "The liberal media hates the war so much and wants to see us fail so badly, they'll even try to make less violence look bad"

That's the interpretation you seem to have taken from the article, and I think it's bizarre.

I personally found the article really interesting.
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post #12 of 101
post #13 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Cemetary workers feeling the pinch

Showing that there are no depths low enough to plumb for bad new out of Iraq, the media, who can't report on schools opening, violence going down, General Petraeus being right and other assorted bits of news instead have to note that the financial well being of grave diggers is on the decline due to lower violence and death rates.



I think swallowing my own vomit is more tasteful than this.

Nick

Schools opening? That old canard again? Please.

Violence is going down? You can't possibly be serious with that statement.

Betrayus was right? Yeah, right about being what Admiral Fallon calls "an ass-kissing little chickenshit." The brown noser should be ashamed of himself.
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post #14 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Betrayus was right? Yeah, right about being what Admiral Fallon calls "an ass-kissing little chickenshit." The brown noser should be ashamed of himself.

Please supply a link to the above quote attributed to Admiral Fallon? Thank you very much.

V/R,
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post #15 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries 1B View Post

Please supply a link to the above quote attributed to Admiral Fallon? Thank you very much.

V/R,
Aries 1B

Quote:
Fallon told Petraeus that he considered him to be "an ass-kissing little chickenshit" and added, "I hate people like that", the sources say. That remark reportedly came after Petraeus began the meeting by making remarks that Fallon interpreted as trying to ingratiate himself with a superior.

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=39235
post #16 of 101
Thread Starter 

Good job. Now all you have to do is show how those embedded reporters, you know the ones who are the purveyors of propaganda, are passing on that news and filling the mainstream press with it.

/sarc
Oh wait... you mean we have to go to a completely unrelated website since those mainstream folks wouldn't report on any of that even if held at gun point?.

/sarc off

Yeah that was sort of the point of the thread.

We could be reading "Air Force C-17 Crews Make Record Airdrop." Is it a bit mundane and boring? I suppose it could be if we had ever read it before. Could it be labeled as propaganda instead of reporting on the "real" war. I suppose if it were the only thing published and somehow managed to crowd out the running tallies of dead, claimed civilian death estimates, costs, etc. that are filling the pages daily.

If anything though, even if it is nothing but filler, it is the type of filler we have not seen and instead our filler is "Grave diggers feel economic sting."

Nothing positive is reported on this war unless it is an accident. Even the shovels of grave diggers being idled is portrayed in a negative light.l

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #17 of 101
Thing is trumptman the embedded reporters were shooed away before the surge and many haven't been called back since. There has been a news blackout since early summer. Either because it became too dangerous or the news wasn't "good enough" for the administration or even the media.

There have been accomplishments, not not as many as the failures either.

I just checked all of the American MSM news sites online and there isn't much front page news on Iraq, mainly because of the "Al Qaeda/Taliban" Bhutto bombing.

It's all IRANIRANIRAN too...
post #18 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

I just checked all of the American MSM news sites online and there isn't much front page news on Iraq, mainly because of the "Al Qaeda/Taliban" Bhutto bombing.

It's all IRANIRANIRAN too...

Well, they won't tie the Bhutto attack to Iran as she is still alive to say she knows it was not 'al Qaeda' but factions from within the Musharaf camp.

Whether it can be traced to him is another story but you can bet your @ss that if she had dies the 'al Qaeda' connection would be Holy Writ and would be tied to Iran.

Looks like they'll have to try something else.

And Musharaf will get to start bashing heads of anyone who opposes him whether an 'extremist' or not. Again.
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post #19 of 101
Thread Starter 
Well obviously Iraq isn't on the front page right now. We have more important things to worry about right?

Nick

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post #20 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Well obviously Iraq isn't on the front page right now. We have more important things to worry about right?

Nick

Wow, Ellen's girl-toy is HOT. Anyway, at least they tracked down that "swirly-guy" in Thailand, eh?

I mean if they could track him down, how come we haven't gotten Bin Laden?

At home I don't have cable or television connectivity at all since 2003, so all this drivel rears it's head on here or on FARK...
post #21 of 101
Iraq to Cheney: ‘Big fat no’ on bases in Iraq.

Quote:
The people of Iraq, the parliament, the council of representatives and the government of Iraq, they all say no, big fat no, N-O for the bases in Iraq. No military bases for Iraq because we believe that is in direct encroachment to our soveriegnty, and we don’t need it.



That's gotta sting; creating several permanent bases in Iraq to "extend power from" was one of the Project For a New American Century's (PNAC) primary goals for the invasion.
post #22 of 101
Quote:
"One item from Baghdad today. The news is... that there is no news. The police told us that, to their knowledge, there were no major acts of violence. Attacks are down in Baghdad and today no bombings or roadside explosions were reported." -Charlie Gibson, World News Tonight

I bet someone at ABC is looking for a job this morning. You just can't say stuff like that, especially after the Surge. This is MoveOn heresy of the highest degree.

I'm personally surprised that they did not just go ahead and run some old video of smoking craters, screaming mothers, and buildings collapsing over the Red Sox box scores, just out of habit.
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post #23 of 101
They're likely just waiting out the surge.

By 2009 I think the maximum # of troops we can keep in Iraq is something like 130,000-- almost 40,000 fewer than what we have right now. There's no way to sustain it. Read the latest George Packer essay in the New Yorker (a few weeks ago).
post #24 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

I bet someone at ABC is looking for a job this morning. You just can't say stuff like that, especially after the Surge. This is MoveOn heresy of the highest degree.

I'm personally surprised that they did not just go ahead and run some old video of smoking craters, screaming mothers, and buildings collapsing over the Red Sox box scores, just out of habit.

Bad news doesn't have to be bombings and dead bodies it can be policy (see my previous post) or business dealings like this one...

Iraq awards contracts to Iran and China

Quote:
Iraq has agreed to award $1.1 billion in contracts to Iranian and Chinese companies to build a pair of enormous power plants, the Iraqi electricity minister said Tuesday. Word of the project prompted serious concerns among American military officials, who fear that Iranian commercial investments can mask military activities at a time of heightened tension with Iran.

Face it. Iraq doesn't want our military or our business. Yankees go home.
post #25 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Bad news doesn't have to be bombings and dead bodies

<wipes forehead> Whew. Glad we didn't miss a day. \
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post #26 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

<wipes forehead> Whew. Glad we didn't miss a day. \

I like your sarcasm, but you seem to maybe missing the point. They don't want us there anymore and honestly I think it's time to get out while the going's good...or bad whatever the case may be...
post #27 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

I like your sarcasm, but you seem to maybe missing the point. They don't want us there anymore and honestly I think it's time to get out while the going's good...or bad whatever the case may be...

... and as soon as they can take up the responsibility and prove that their police and military can handle the task, we should leave on the early bus and be home by dinner.

I'm interested in how this Iraq base thing is going to work out...
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post #28 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

... and as soon as they can take up the responsibility and prove that their police and military can handle the task...

Handle what task? I thought things were peachy now. No news to tell. The surge worked. Betrayus was right. And so on...

I mean, shit, schools are opening and stuff.
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post #29 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Handle what task? I thought things were peachy now. No news to tell. The surge worked. Betrayus was right. And so on...

I mean, shit, schools are opening and stuff.

Lazy. Incredibly lazy.
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post #30 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Lazy. Incredibly lazy.

Yeah, and wondering how "not bad news" slipped past vetting by MoveOn is the height of serious engagement.
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post #31 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Yeah, and wondering how "not bad news" slipped past vetting by MoveOn is the height of serious engagement.

Quote:
Handle what task? I thought things were peachy now. No news to tell. The surge worked. Betrayus was right. And so on...

I mean, shit, schools are opening and stuff.

My snark regarding MoveOn was obvious hyperbole. No one believes that MoveOn is vetting the news. (They have their willing accomplices at the NYT and AP to do that!)

It's intellectually lazy to ask "what task" - it's a strawman- there is work yet to be done there, and still things that the Iraqis should be doing soon that we are doing now. No one has said things are "peachy," there are stories that still need to be told, yes the surge worked and the General was right.

There are tasks (security, etc) even here in the United States. Those "tasks" are just part of running a country.
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post #32 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Lazy. Incredibly lazy.

An odd statement coming from the king of sarcasm...
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post #33 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

An odd statement coming from the king of sarcasm...

What does my sarcasm have to do with your missing the point with the "I thought things were just peachy" post? Let's start over and try again. How about this for starters:

Things are not "just peachy" but there is good news. NO one has said things are "peachy" or "easy" or "vacation destination." Killings are down, stability seems to be improving, and fewer US soldiers are being harmed than before. There is still work to be done in Iraq. Lots of work. Iraqis need to start doing internal security just like every other nation on earth, with both domestic law enforcement and a military. The sooner we make them get their act together, the sooner we can start bringing people home.
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post #34 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

What does my sarcasm have to do with your missing the point with the "I thought things were just peachy" post? Let's start over and try again. How about this for starters:

Things are not "just peachy" but there is good news. NO one has said things are "peachy" or "easy" or "vacation destination." Killings are down, stability seems to be improving, and fewer US soldiers are being harmed than before. There is still work to be done in Iraq. Lots of work. Iraqis need to start doing internal security just like every other nation on earth, with both domestic law enforcement and a military. The sooner we make them get their act together, the sooner we can start bringing people home.

It's too late, Jube. The surge needed to come sooner. There's no way we can sustain our troop levels through 2009 without either a draft or extreme stopgap measures that would dramatically increase the already alarming rate of attrition even further and ruin the military for a generation. Without current troop levels Iraq will descend into chaos. There's nothing we can do at this point to turn things around permanently. We have to start planning for the inevitable withdrawal. Whether we want to kill another 1000 or so US soldiers while we postpone the inevitable is the question.
post #35 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

It's too late, Jube. The surge needed to come sooner. There's no way we can sustain our troop levels through 2009 without either a draft or extreme stopgap measures that would dramatically increase the already alarming rate of attrition even further and ruin the military for a generation. Without current troop levels Iraq will descend into chaos. There's nothing we can do at this point to turn things around permanently. We have to start planning for the inevitable withdrawal. Whether we want to kill another 1000 or so US soldiers while we postpone the inevitable is the question.

Wow. That's a lot of info. Any place I can refer to, such that I can make the same case?
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post #36 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Wow. That's a lot of info. Any place I can refer to, such that I can make the same case?

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post #37 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Wow. That's a lot of info. Any place I can refer to, such that I can make the same case?

There were 12 former Army captains that said exactly that.

Quote:
As Army captains who served in Baghdad and beyond, weve seen the corruption and the sectarian division. We understand what its like to be stretched too thin. And we know when its time to get out. []

To continue an operation of this intensity and duration, we would have to abandon our volunteer military for compulsory service. Short of that, our best option is to leave Iraq immediately. A scaled withdrawal will not prevent a civil war, and it will spend more blood and treasure on a losing proposition.

America, it has been five years. Its time to make a choice.

Original Washington Post article by the Army captains.

Also there's Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez's "a nightmare with no end in sight" link...
post #38 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Wow. That's a lot of info. Any place I can refer to, such that I can make the same case?

George Packer's latest Iraq essay in the New Yorker.
post #39 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

What does my sarcasm have to do with your missing the point with the "I thought things were just peachy" post? Let's start over and try again. How about this for starters:

Things are not "just peachy" but there is good news. NO one has said things are "peachy" or "easy" or "vacation destination." Killings are down, stability seems to be improving, and fewer US soldiers are being harmed than before. There is still work to be done in Iraq. Lots of work. Iraqis need to start doing internal security just like every other nation on earth, with both domestic law enforcement and a military. The sooner we make them get their act together, the sooner we can start bringing people home.

AGAIN you miss the point. I was being SARCASTIC. I thought you, of all people, would've gotten that considering you are the absolute king of sarcasm and snark around here! Jesus.
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #40 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Handle what task? I thought things were peachy now. No news to tell. The surge worked. Betrayus was right. And so on...

I mean, shit, schools are opening and stuff.

Yeah! I thought everything was fine so which is it?

Or maybe it's only fine when he's making that argument?
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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