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Unlocked iPhone for sale for 749euros in France (1070usd)

post #1 of 83
10/19/07 at 8:30am
Thread Starter 
Well.. damn... that's just extortionate

I wonder how and if they will block USA imports. Would it be possible?

http://www.phoneandphone.com/search/...&idp=719&idc=1

Seeing that they say it's available NOW, I dunno how OFFICIAL this is... still, they even offer it with the other 3 Operators
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post #2 of 83
10/19/07 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZO View Post

Well.. damn... that's just extortionate

I wonder how and if they will block USA imports. Would it be possible?

I sure hope so!!!!
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post #3 of 83
10/19/07 at 2:18pm
749 isn't too bad. Top end HTCs and the Nokia N95 were about that when they were first announced, unlocked.
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post #4 of 83
10/20/07 at 7:25am
I'm in the UK and want to stick with Orange. I wonder if this is the way to do it? Although might the phone be locked into French?
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post #5 of 83
10/20/07 at 9:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

749 isn't too bad. Top end HTCs and the Nokia N95 were about that when they were first announced, unlocked.

The N95 8GB is going to be available shortly for about 650. Now obviously Nokia will win any feature checklist comparison, but iPhone has sold very well in the US. That makes me wonder if at these price points it would even hurt iPhone sales if Nokia cut margins and charged, say, 550 for the N95 8GB.

The big question is, how separate are the buyer groups for these two phones?

Nokia has great production, distribution and economy of scale otherwise, but Apple has cheap flash memory due to iPods. I think maybe Nokia should just flood the 200-300 midrange market right now with phones with decent amount of flash built in. 2GB, 200, plays music. 4GB, 250, plays music. For great justice, etc.
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post #6 of 83
10/20/07 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

Now obviously Nokia will win any feature checklist comparison, but iPhone has sold very well in the US. That makes me wonder if at these price points it would even hurt iPhone sales if Nokia cut margins and charged, say, 550 for the N95 8GB.

The iPhone is not in the same category as existing cell phones. People tend to oversee that part.
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post #7 of 83
10/20/07 at 9:06pm
That iPhone is your vanilla hacked ATT phone from the US. The "officiel" French phone, locked or unlocked, will be sold on November 29th. If you're in France I suggest you wait until then to buy one. Chances are even the unlocked version won't be that expensive.

On that note I saw a girl using an iPhone here in Hong Kong, (I've seen them being sold here). I was going to ask her about it but I was with someone at the time, and don't make a habit of starting conversations with extremely attractive strangers in fast food joints.
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post #8 of 83
10/21/07 at 3:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximose View Post

I sure hope so!!!!

You hope they will block USA imports?? Are you a sadist!?
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post #9 of 83
10/21/07 at 8:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZO View Post

Well.. damn... that's just extortionate

No, Apple wants to keep their iPhone locked to the companies they want. If you want to buy the iPhone unlocked, then you should have to pay for it, as Apple is getting profits from ATT and Orange for using the phone exclusively for them.
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post #10 of 83
10/21/07 at 2:12pm
Thread Starter 
thats one way of looking at it.. but has anyone actually made an even approximate study/calculation to see if they would make more money by selling MORE units to ALL mobile phones users?

And all the months they are WASTING by having to get exclusive contracts with ONE Mobile Operator per country at a time?

If Apple would just allow, right now, all 194 countires in the world (a market of a few BILLION people), to go down to their stupid local phone shop or order online, I'm kinda hedging to bet that they'll not only be making MORE money but actually PLEASING customers

EDIT: And there goes my 3000th post.. hurray for me
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post #11 of 83
10/21/07 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZO View Post

thats one way of looking at it.. but has anyone actually made an even approximate study/calculation to see if they would make more money by selling MORE units to ALL mobile phones users?

And all the months they are WASTING by having to get exclusive contracts with ONE Mobile Operator per country at a time?

If Apple would just allow, right now, all 194 countires in the world (a market of a few BILLION people), to go down to their stupid local phone shop or order online, I'm kinda hedging to bet that they'll not only be making MORE money but actually PLEASING customers

EDIT: And there goes my 3000th post.. hurray for me

ZO, exactly what part of the success Apple is achieving with the iPhone are you displeased with? You're being very critical of the direction Apple is going in with the device even though it's being acclaimed as revolutionary and even a disruptive force in the industry, where "disruptive" means it's changing the way things are done.

Apple IS pleasing it's customers, and has better results in a recent survey than any other, with 82% of the iPhone owners being "very happy" with the phone.
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post #12 of 83
10/21/07 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZO View Post

thats one way of looking at it.. but has anyone actually made an even approximate study/calculation to see if they would make more money by selling MORE units to ALL mobile phones users?

And all the months they are WASTING by having to get exclusive contracts with ONE Mobile Operator per country at a time?

If Apple would just allow, right now, all 194 countires in the world (a market of a few BILLION people), to go down to their stupid local phone shop or order online, I'm kinda hedging to bet that they'll not only be making MORE money but actually PLEASING customers

EDIT: And there goes my 3000th post.. hurray for me

ZO, exactly what part of the success Apple is achieving with the iPhone are you displeased with? You're being very critical of the direction Apple is going in with the device even though it's being acclaimed as revolutionary and even a disruptive force in the industry, where "disruptive" means it's changing the way things are done.

Apple IS pleasing it's customers, and has better results in a recent survey than any other, with 82% of the iPhone owners being "very happy" with the phone.

And don't forget they actually have to be able to produce those phones. Apple does a stellar job (best in class) of supply chain management but I doubt they can just turn it on like that would likely require. They're building a platform as much as selling a product.
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post #13 of 83
10/21/07 at 4:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

749 isn't too bad. Top end HTCs and the Nokia N95 were about that when they were first announced, unlocked.

What makes it a truly awful price is beyond Apple's control -- the pitiful level the dollar has fallen to under ruinous Republican deficit spending.

If the dollar and the euro were closer to parity, like they had been at one time long ago, I still wouldn't feel exactly joyful at the prospect of paying nearly double for an unlocked version of an iPhone, but now it would be nearly triple the price -- probably over triple the price once you pay import duties, and perhaps some middleman importer to boot.
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post #14 of 83
10/21/07 at 7:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

ZO, exactly what part of the success Apple is achieving with the iPhone are you displeased with? You're being very critical of the direction Apple is going in with the device even though it's being acclaimed as revolutionary and even a disruptive force in the industry, where "disruptive" means it's changing the way things are done.

Apple IS pleasing it's customers, and has better results in a recent survey than any other, with 82% of the iPhone owners being "very happy" with the phone.

I have more than enough material throughout AI forums about all the stuff that is NOT alright with the iPhone and Apple's less than stellar (bordering on fascist) attitude towards it and its customers.

As many have said, it boils down simply that the iPhone is capable of SO much more and Apple has been treating users and developers who have been trying to improve the user experience of the supposed 18% unhappy users like terrorists or worse.

I've been using Apple products since before 1984 and I'm a pretty staunch fan and I'm sorry to say there is nothing "revolutionary" about the iPhone per se.

Its a typically Apple industrially designed piece of hardware with a slick UI. The insides, the hardware, can be considered cutting edge if it were still 2005. So, not sure where you're getting the whole "revolutionary" bit from.

Don't get me wrong, it's damn nice phone and I would probably consider myself in the 82% of satisfied users (despite having hacked it and using it currently in France), but still, the amount of crap they've had people who just care for Apple products and simply want to use it somewhere else but the USA has been taken way too far.
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post #15 of 83
10/21/07 at 8:50pm
ZO, there's not 18% unhappy owners out there. 82% were "very happy" and there's a lot of room between very happy and unhappy.

ANY device with a computer chip is capable of "SO much more" because it's capable of anything the hardware is capable of. So, you're not in the demographic the iPhone is aimed at - why do you take that personally?

I've been using Apple products since 1979 and not all the products were aimed at me. I'm not a fan of Apple, I'm a fan of technology and sometimes a company meets my needs and desires. When they do, it's good. When they don't, usually another company does and that's good too.

I gotta say, it seems you had your hopes too high. You seem to feel the company should move in a direction you approve of and if they don't they're wrong in some sort of significant way.

That's not the case here. They've met shareholder expectation, they've made the president and the board of directors happy, and the demographic the iPhone is serving is overwhelmingly pleased with their product.

I think you need to realize that if you're not happy, that's not Apple's fault.

ANd to address your "where's the revolution happening?", it's happening with the interface. It's happening with the partnership with the carrier, and it's happening with the 82% of the folks that are "Very Happy" with the device. Those are incredible numbers for a company's first product in a tech niche. Google "iPhone disruptive technology" if you don't believe that there's a LOT of talk about that very issue.
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post #16 of 83
10/21/07 at 9:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZO View Post

I have more than enough material throughout AI forums about all the stuff that is NOT alright with the iPhone and Apple's less than stellar (bordering on fascist) attitude towards it and its customers.

As many have said, it boils down simply that the iPhone is capable of SO much more and Apple has been treating users and developers who have been trying to improve the user experience of the supposed 18% unhappy users like terrorists or worse.

I've been using Apple products since before 1984 and I'm a pretty staunch fan and I'm sorry to say there is nothing "revolutionary" about the iPhone per se.

Its a typically Apple industrially designed piece of hardware with a slick UI. The insides, the hardware, can be considered cutting edge if it were still 2005. So, not sure where you're getting the whole "revolutionary" bit from.

Don't get me wrong, it's damn nice phone and I would probably consider myself in the 82% of satisfied users (despite having hacked it and using it currently in France), but still, the amount of crap they've had people who just care for Apple products and simply want to use it somewhere else but the USA has been taken way too far.

ZO, are you familiar with the übercrap that is the cell phone industry in the US? In Europe and Asia, where we can get the top of the line technology, unlocked, with all features activated and reasonable data plans, the iPhone is not revolutionary. In the US, people just aren't used to nice phones. I even read a recent post that said the RAZR was a full-featured phone!
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post #17 of 83
10/22/07 at 5:01am
Thread Starter 
statistics are a funny thing. they can be basically twisted to say anything you want to hear.

Having said that, I'm sure most people are super duper rainbow power happy snappy about their precious little iPhone.

Tonton sorta hits the nail on the head. While most of my friends here in Europe love my iPhone and want one too, the whole "exclusive carrier" thing and possibly 700-800 euro price tag for an unlocked version just doesnt jive.

Apple wants to impose it's walled garden approach to the whole world. You DO realize this right? You are actually happy that you have to pay to add a custom ringtone? You're actually happy that you can't transfer files or not even sync with the crippled bluetooth? You're happy that you can't use another carrier?

It really seems that the whole culture of "obey and don't ask questions" that has been imposed on US Citizens in the last half decade or so is even more pervasive than I dared imagine. And you know its bad when the company that keeps saying to everyone to "think different" is happy and pushing towards a walled garden approach (which should be, ironically enough, the other way around).

Don't fool yourself. Stop drinking the kool-aid. Even Apple is trying to tighten the noose on user choice and freedom.
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post #18 of 83
10/22/07 at 6:57am
ZO, I believe what you called a "walled garden" is what most refer to as a well thought out design. If you want the kitchen sink, buy a house.

The iPhone is a melding of an iPod and a phone. You believe it could be "SO MUCH MORE!™" ... well, buy stock in Microsoft. Their software always has the kitchen sink, the basement, the water filter and the whole-house humidifier. AND, since it does everything, it doesn't do any ONE thing terribly well. It's called "Feature creep" and it kills usability.

"The iPhone is the best iPod we ever made" according to the CEO of the company. At some point you'll stop trying to force kool-aid down everyones throat just to validate your position. The fact of the matter is, people know what the device is and they feel it's the best available.
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post #19 of 83
10/22/07 at 7:48am
Thread Starter 
Please tell me you work for Apple.

Have you ever used a Smart Phone before? Wether Nokia, a Windows Mobile based one, or whatever? Heck, even a Newton or a Palm? I think you probably have and you can't tell me that any of these devices can't do more or even just ALLOW the end user to do more?

Lets take a Newton from more than a decade ago... even that old hunk of junk can 'do more' than an iPhone

Call it whatever you want, "Well thought out" or not, Apple is pushing a 'walled garden' system. Walled garden approaches have NEVER worked in the long run and Apple, for some weird reason, thinks it can beat the odds.

We'll see in the next 6 months what Apple does (once the SDK is finally out and a few months have settled) to see what's really going on. So far, Apple is trying to control every single aspect of the iPhone, and I (and many thousands of others) don't like that approach.

Also, most people who have been buying the iPhone are "early adopters" and what not. Adoption rates are already starting to trail off...

Lets see what REALLY happens in the next year or so.

Nokia makes a huge chunk of its cash with low end handsets, the "Smart Phone" market is relatively small compared to that and most "smart phone" users tend to be more tech savvy. Will be fun to see what happens when everyone will start to brush up their UIs as well and start getting their acts together.

If anything, I'm happy because HTC, Samsung, Nokia, etc are getting their act together too because of the iPhone.

Oh, and going back to the original post... 750euros (1000usd) for some slick looking 2 year old technology is extortion no matter which way you try and paint it
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post #20 of 83
10/22/07 at 7:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZO View Post

Please tell me you work for Apple

There it is again - your attempts to force others to drink kool-aid to justify your position.

If you want to sound less like a whiner you need a better argument. Accusing people of perfidies is incredibly lame.

When you actually post a better argument we'll talk again.
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post #21 of 83
10/22/07 at 8:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZO View Post

Please tell me you work for Apple.

Have you ever used a Smart Phone before? Wether Nokia, a Windows Mobile based one, or whatever? Heck, even a Newton or a Palm? I think you probably have and you can't tell me that any of these devices can't do more or even just ALLOW the end user to do more?

Lets take a Newton from more than a decade ago... even that old hunk of junk can 'do more' than an iPhone

Call it whatever you want, "Well thought out" or not, Apple is pushing a 'walled garden' system. Walled garden approaches have NEVER worked in the long run and Apple, for some weird reason, thinks it can beat the odds.

We'll see in the next 6 months what Apple does (once the SDK is finally out and a few months have settled) to see what's really going on. So far, Apple is trying to control every single aspect of the iPhone, and I (and many thousands of others) don't like that approach.

Also, most people who have been buying the iPhone are "early adopters" and what not. Adoption rates are already starting to trail off...

Lets see what REALLY happens in the next year or so.

Nokia makes a huge chunk of its cash with low end handsets, the "Smart Phone" market is relatively small compared to that and most "smart phone" users tend to be more tech savvy. Will be fun to see what happens when everyone will start to brush up their UIs as well and start getting their acts together.

If anything, I'm happy because HTC, Samsung, Nokia, etc are getting their act together too because of the iPhone.

Oh, and going back to the original post... 750euros (1000usd) for some slick looking 2 year old technology is extortion no matter which way you try and paint it

Zo, I would say to you 'stop drinking the feature koolaid'. While I haven't had a 'smartphone' prior to the iPhone I have had a large number of PDA from the newton to the palm. And I can easily say that I never used those because of the difficulty in using them. I do use the iPhone, all of the function, constantly. I had given up buying PDA like devices because, while I could use them they were more trouble than they were worth.

I watched my friend, who just bought a brand new, top end blackberry, and he tried to show me a photo - this took almost 5 minutes of fumbling around. This is after about 2 months of using the phone. Yes, I know the balckberry is not a nokia, but if I described something about a nokia i'd get '...but a blackberry..'. I know the feature lists are not on par.

As far as 'extortion', the use of these pejorative terms, 'extortion', 'monopoly', etc. in these discussions is ridiculous. This is a purchase of a luxury device from a minority player in the mobile market. None of these terms apply in any way, shape, or form.
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post #22 of 83
10/22/07 at 8:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

As far as 'extortion', the use of these pejorative terms, 'extortion', 'monopoly', etc. in these discussions is ridiculous. This is a purchase of a luxury device from a minority player in the mobile market. None of these terms apply in any way, shape, or form.

Pejorative terms, accusations of perfidious behavior, if you haven't got a good argument, attack the poster.

Well, when in Rome...

As for the iPhone, I have an interesting anecdote. My grandnephew turned 2 this weekend and I attended a birthday party for him. I've got some pictures of my new puppy on my iPhone that I was showing him, and the kid pointed at the puppy pic and said "puppy!" ... and he noticed that when he moved his finger the picture would move ... and when he slid his finger it would change pictures...and he proceded to change through all the pictures on my iPhone.

The kid "got it" all by himself in about 15 seconds. That doesn't happen on other phones.
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post #23 of 83
10/22/07 at 1:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

As for the iPhone, I have an interesting anecdote. My grandnephew turned 2 this weekend and I attended a birthday party for him. I've got some pictures of my new puppy on my iPhone that I was showing him, and the kid pointed at the puppy pic and said "puppy!" ... and he noticed that when he moved his finger the picture would move ... and when he slid his finger it would change pictures...and he proceded to change through all the pictures on my iPhone.

The kid "got it" all by himself in about 15 seconds. That doesn't happen on other phones.

That story makes the iphone sound like a Nintendo Wii... Very cool looking. Extremely gentle learning curve. Adults are intrigued by it, kids are amazed by it. Found a profitable niche among tough competitors in a savage industry. Thats where the similarities end for now... A year later, nobody cares about the Wii. The games are elementary, and the graphics are circa 1999. All but children have kicked it to the curb. Hardcore gamers wouldn't touch it. Sales of XBOX 360s have surpassed Wii sales again, and PS3s are gaining momentum with time.

Takeaway: Apple has developed a fantastic niche product that is easy on the eyes and very simple to use. It does what it does brilliantly. But going forward, there must be a push to add content, enhance features, and make it generally more appealing to more users. Niche appeal will always be there (as with all Apple products) but I believe its Job's intent to make this attractive to all cell phone users, not remain a niche player in a huge field.

Obviously many buyers are content with the quality and quantity of features on the iPhone. But as a stockholder, I definitely would like to see the product addressing some of the shortcomings addressed here and in other threads. I think Apple can do so without compromising the cell phone/ipod features, and in the process drive strong growth in sales for years to come.
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post #24 of 83
10/22/07 at 2:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bg_nyc View Post

But as a stockholder, I definitely would like to see the product addressing some of the shortcomings addressed here and in other threads.

As a stockholder I'd think you're be too busy doing cartwheels right about now to really give a damn about perceived shortcomings from folks that hadn't contributed to the incredible quarter results.
Quote:
Apple profits surge 67%, shares soar
The consumer electronics giant reports strong fourth-quarter results on strength of Mac and iPhone sales; stock up 6 percent after-hours

http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/22/tech...ion=2007102217
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post #25 of 83
10/22/07 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

As a stockholder I'd think you're be too busy doing cartwheels right about now to really give a damn about perceived shortcomings from folks that hadn't contributed to the incredible quarter results.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/22/tech...ion=2007102217

Cartwheels were 1 hour ago. I've settled down now. But... is there such a thing as too much growth? Are you not interested in continued sales growth beyond early adopters and Apple fanatics?

The only way to keep on track is to attract new customers who have a 'wait and see' approach regarding SDK. Those (who haven't contributed to the incredible quarter results) are the potential customers who will continue to drive sales in the future. Their concerns are important and Jobs is definitely listening to them, no matter how much you dismiss them as 'perceived shortcomings'.
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post #26 of 83
10/22/07 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bg_nyc View Post

Cartwheels were 1 hour ago. I've settled down now. But... is there such a thing as too much growth? Are you not interested in continued sales growth beyond early adopters and Apple fanatics?

The only way to keep on track is to attract new customers who have a 'wait and see' approach regarding SDK. Those (who haven't contributed to the incredible quarter results) are the potential customers who will continue to drive sales in the future. Their concerns are important and Jobs is definitely listening to them, no matter how much you dismiss them as 'perceived shortcomings'.

1) Yes, there is too much growth. A company can kill itself this way.

2) If the people I know who have switched in the last year are any indication, they Apple is already well past the fanatic. These were hard-core windows users.

I think apple is addressing there new users constantly, they're just ignoring those that want cheap, low-margin machines. As a stockholder I say great.
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post #27 of 83
10/22/07 at 3:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZO View Post

thats one way of looking at it.. but has anyone actually made an even approximate study/calculation to see if they would make more money by selling MORE units to ALL mobile phones users?

And all the months they are WASTING by having to get exclusive contracts with ONE Mobile Operator per country at a time?

If Apple would just allow, right now, all 194 countires in the world (a market of a few BILLION people), to go down to their stupid local phone shop or order online, I'm kinda hedging to bet that they'll not only be making MORE money but actually PLEASING customers

EDIT: And there goes my 3000th post.. hurray for me

Isn't it way too early in the product life cycle to be upset about this? It hasn't even been half a year. There's plenty of time to roll the product out to multiple markets, and release unlocked versions.

I don't think its fair to criticize for not moving fast enough given all the needs around procurement of supplies, manufacturing and distribution. They need to build infrastructure and develop a worldwide supply chain network dedicated to the iphone, and not just piggy-back on an existing ipod network that is probably already capacity-constrained.
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post #28 of 83
10/22/07 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

1) Yes, there is too much growth. A company can kill itself this way.

2) If the people I know who have switched in the last year are any indication, they Apple is already well past the fanatic. These were hard-core windows users.

I think apple is addressing there new users constantly, they're just ignoring those that want cheap, low-margin machines. As a stockholder I say great.

Agreed... I'm thinking a slow progression of new users, not all at once. And I'm talking about growth in sales of one particular product, not an entire suite of various products. I don't think a company ever suffocated from selling too many widgets. But i am all for Apple staying focused on just a few outstanding products with outstanding sales.

Not just fanatics.. early adopters also. These are people who view a product, and take a position quickly. I'd say there are alot of folks who had already decided to purchase before even holding it in their hand. This is in contrast to those who wait to see what the initial feedback is, and maybe wait for a couple firmware updates too.
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post #29 of 83
10/22/07 at 3:47pm
This is exactly what I thought they'd do, assuming they sold into France at all, heavily mark-up the unlocked device.

Basically, it's because Apple counts on getting subscription money as part of the total price of the device. Despite claims that it's not a subsidized device, it was working out to be that way, just a slightly different way of subsidizing it than we're used to seeing.
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post #30 of 83
10/22/07 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

This is exactly what I thought they'd do, assuming they sold into France at all, heavily mark-up the unlocked device.

Basically, it's because Apple counts on getting subscription money as part of the total price of the device. Despite claims that it's not a subsidized device, it was working out to be that way, just a slightly different way of subsidizing it than we're used to seeing.

Right. The 'subsidized' price is certainly higher than were used to seeing in a phone, but its subsidized nonetheless.

It would be interesting to see some analysis on how the total iphone 2-year cost in the US compares to buying and using an unlocked iphone in France with 2 years worth of equivalent service (normalized for exchange rate differences). Would it be higher or lower?
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post #31 of 83
10/23/07 at 5:24am
Thread Starter 
aparently it would seem that almost 1/4th of iPhone users seem to agree with the fact that they DON'T WANT a walled garden approach. I wonder how many iPhones are actually being sent aborad and how many are actually being used in the USA/ATT?

http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/10/...for.unlockers/

bg_nyc... thats a FANTASTIC analogy. I have a Wii as well and indeed, while new users love the thing, it kinda looses its mojo after a while. Games cost an arm and a leg and I can't even use it to play back a simple DVD or use the SD card for Divx playback.

While I'm sure Apple will not fall into that trend, it's an interesting analogy
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post #32 of 83
10/23/07 at 5:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bg_nyc View Post

They need to build infrastructure and develop a worldwide supply chain network dedicated to the iphone, and not just piggy-back on an existing ipod network that is probably already capacity-constrained.

I think its more of a construction hold back rather than distribution. The iPod worldwide channel is more than mature enough afaik. Worse comes to worse they can very easily work with any mobile phone distributor. Just about every country has a few well established mobile phone distributors.
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post #33 of 83
10/23/07 at 5:50am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

Zo, I would say to you 'stop drinking the feature koolaid'. While I haven't had a 'smartphone' prior to the iPhone I have had a large number of PDA from the newton to the palm. And I can easily say that I never used those because of the difficulty in using them. I do use the iPhone, all of the function, constantly. I had given up buying PDA like devices because, while I could use them they were more trouble than they were worth.

I watched my friend, who just bought a brand new, top end blackberry, and he tried to show me a photo - this took almost 5 minutes of fumbling around. This is after about 2 months of using the phone. Yes, I know the balckberry is not a nokia, but if I described something about a nokia i'd get '...but a blackberry..'. I know the feature lists are not on par.

As far as 'extortion', the use of these pejorative terms, 'extortion', 'monopoly', etc. in these discussions is ridiculous. This is a purchase of a luxury device from a minority player in the mobile market. None of these terms apply in any way, shape, or form.

Hold on hold on.. I never said that the present day iPhone sucks or what not. Its fantastic. BUT. But there is MORE it can do.

Hell, Apple itself just said that they approximate 250k users (of 1.2mil) are hacking their iPhones. Or unlocking them. Or both.

I'd say that gives a pretty damn strong signal.

Otherwise, back on topic, a phone that costs 399euro (with carrier) and suddenly costs 750euro unlocked is unheard of in Europe.

Not that it really matters. Anyone who REALLY wants an unlocked iPhone in Europe is already ordering them directly from the USA, unlocked, for less than 399euros. I've come across a dozen websites that offer them.

Lets see...

Apple wants to sell them in Europe for 399eur (568usd)
That means Apple will make about 40% MORE on the SAME handset just keeping the Euro/Dollar at same numbers

TODAY: "Savvy" users are buying directly from the USA at 399usd (=279euros), or about 40% less

Apple is already losing (or has already lost) the people who will buy the full priced unlocked iPhone.

They are ALSO losing the early adopters who might switch or buy the locked, normal iPhone.
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post #34 of 83
10/23/07 at 6:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZO View Post

Otherwise, back on topic, a phone that costs 399euro (with carrier) and suddenly costs 750euro unlocked is unheard of in Europe.

Not exactly, Nokia's high end business phones (Communicator series) have reached those prices before, and though cheaper, the N95 isn't that far.
Quote:
Not that it really matters. Anyone who REALLY wants an unlocked iPhone in Europe is already ordering them directly from the USA, unlocked, for less than 399euros. I've come across a dozen websites that offer them.

Lets see...

Apple wants to sell them in Europe for 399eur (568usd)
That means Apple will make about 40% MORE on the SAME handset just keeping the Euro/Dollar at same numbers

TODAY: "Savvy" users are buying directly from the USA at 399usd (=279euros), or about 40% less

Apple is already losing (or has already lost) the people who will buy the full priced unlocked iPhone.

They are ALSO losing the early adopters who might switch or buy the locked, normal iPhone.

Do remember that after European VAT the price should be only a little less in Euros, -10% or so. Customs duties should not make a difference, the phones need to be imported into the US as well. As for the AT&T bound phone, there's a whole lot of people are too timid to hack the locked phone or not willing to sweat over every software upgrade and find out if it's going to do something negative to a hacked phone.

The phone still costs way too much for what it does. Combine with poor brand recognition, and it's not in a good position.

I wouldn't be surprised if an improved hardware version in spring came in at 600. That could actually sell in the EU market.
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post #35 of 83
10/23/07 at 6:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

Customs duties should not make a difference, the phones need to be imported into the US as well.

What makes you think that those expenses would be the same for both regions? Just because both may charge duties doesn't mean that the duties will be the same.
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post #36 of 83
10/23/07 at 7:06am
Thread Starter 
France VAT is about 20%... and in Europe the advertised price is always final price, the taxes are already included.

NYC is, what, 7,8,9%

The N95 has a feature list that runs laps around the iPhone: GPS, full sized movie taking at 30fps, 5mpix Carl Zeiss camera, 3G, WiFi, etc etc.

There is seriously NO other phone/smart phone on the European market that can be comparable spec wise.. unless you look at catalogs from 2-3 years ago.
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post #37 of 83
10/23/07 at 7:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

What makes you think that those expenses would be the same for both regions? Just because both may charge duties doesn't mean that the duties will be the same.

I have paid about 5% for stuff I have imported. There's no way the US duties differ from that with more than a couple percentage points, so the customs duty will not explain any notable (say 10% and up) difference in the product's price like the ~20% EU VAT does. (To be exact, the VAT is per country and the upper limit for it is 22%. 18%-22% is normal for electronics.)
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post #38 of 83
10/23/07 at 9:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bg_nyc View Post

That story makes the iphone sound like a Nintendo Wii... Very cool looking. Extremely gentle learning curve. Adults are intrigued by it, kids are amazed by it. Found a profitable niche among tough competitors in a savage industry. Thats where the similarities end for now... A year later, nobody cares about the Wii. The games are elementary, and the graphics are circa 1999. All but children have kicked it to the curb. Hardcore gamers wouldn't touch it. Sales of XBOX 360s have surpassed Wii sales again, and PS3s are gaining momentum with time.

What?

Do you have any information that's newer than 1 month? Cumulative global Wii sales exceeded that of 360 as of last month. This is despite a later introduction. I think Wii had one of the fastest up-take rates in consoles in some time.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/51df0c84-6...nclick_check=1

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZO View Post

bg_nyc... thats a FANTASTIC analogy. I have a Wii as well and indeed, while new users love the thing, it kinda looses its mojo after a while. Games cost an arm and a leg and I can't even use it to play back a simple DVD or use the SD card for Divx playback.

They probably would have had to charge maybe $50 more to play DVDs. Sure, you can get DVD players for less than that, but they are actually scofflaws that aren't paying the $20 license fee to make a legal DVD-Video player. Nintendo can't avoid that in the same way.
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post #39 of 83
10/23/07 at 9:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZO View Post

France VAT is about 20%... and in Europe the advertised price is always final price, the taxes are already included.

NYC is, what, 7,8,9%

The N95 has a feature list that runs laps around the iPhone: GPS, full sized movie taking at 30fps, 5mpix Carl Zeiss camera, 3G, WiFi, etc etc.

There is seriously NO other phone/smart phone on the European market that can be comparable spec wise.. unless you look at catalogs from 2-3 years ago.

The EU has 466 million cellular phone customers and the N95 has sold about 1.5 million units since March.

The iPhone has sold about the same number of phones to 233 million US cell phone customers since June.

I'm thinking your idea of what a feature list looks like as it laps another product might be due for a revision.
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post #40 of 83
10/23/07 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

I have paid about 5% for stuff I have imported. There's no way the US duties differ from that with more than a couple percentage points, so the customs duty will not explain any notable (say 10% and up) difference in the product's price like the ~20% EU VAT does. (To be exact, the VAT is per country and the upper limit for it is 22%. 18%-22% is normal for electronics.)

OK, I didn't know it was that low for you. I've yet to be charged duties, I don't know what they are.
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