Please Don't Bite My Head Off......But

It's all down to your morals really.

I personally wouldn't as leopard is cheap enough for what you get. Also an OS is a major thing and you don't know if that torrent might have problems.

Get some new mates.

I've heard there are circles you can move in where you look a mug if you have to steal things because you don't have enough money to buy them.

Kids...

Never such thoughts came in my mind when I had your age. And not now either. What a mug.

You and your friends can have much fun with me.

It's a 6.5GB+ download, which would take an average connection 2-3 days to download if not more and once you get it, it won't fit on a single layer DVD so you have to get a DL disc which tend to burn slowly and also make sure your burner supports it or image it to a hard drive (but without burning it, you have no backup if something goes wrong with your computer). Either that or modify the disc image to get rid of stuff so it will fit but also ensure that it's still bootable.

Plus you won't always know if the image is official or if there are differences in the posted version.

Trouble is if you actually buy Leopard, you'd want to have a backup anyway so you'd probably have to go through the burning problems. I'd buy it simply because it's the ethical thing to do and you're not just using it once. This OS will last over a year and you will be using it constantly. So where you would pay £10 for a DVD movie that you will watch maybe 3 times (5 hours use), you pay £80 for an OS you will use every day for a year or more (maybe 1000 hours use). It's not as if it's a bad deal.

You are no more of a mug for not downloading Leopard than not downloading any other piece of software including games, movies, music etc. When does it become right to not pay for anything and reward the people who put in the effort to make a good product? I would say that you shouldn't reward people who make bad products. I mean we had 4 Scary Movie films for goodness sake - that was just plain wrong and they shouldn't have been rewarded enough after the first one to make 3 more.

I live in a country where Leopard is more expensive than in the US but represents about half the monthly income for most of the people. Well, that is the reason most people don't buy Macs in the first place. And yes, most of them don't pay for any software. The problem is very complicated and begins with audio/video industry: when they can not make billions here the easiest thing for them is to declare all young people 'pirates' and if there is no reexport or something that disturbs the 'real markets' leave them do whatever they want. Unfortunately, this created a culture where you really may look the mug for buying stuff...

Almost everything I have on my computers is legal (I sometimes have one legal copy on more than 1 computer though). When some of my friends ask me why I pay for software I say: because I can afford it, I don't need to steal to have it. But there are a lot of people I know who have illegal Photoshop/Photoshop elements or whatever they found just to crop their images or do a Preview.app kind of editing. Well, they could look for less expensive software up to the task but it means swimming against the tide in this country and not everybody has the courage to do this. Ah, and Linux is very popular among the IT related young people, but not for the Average Joe.

For my country, I think you should always pay for the software if you are using it for a business. However, the young people who are using computers to learn should not use yesterday's junk just because their parents can not afford to bye legal software instead of paying bills. I believe it is in everybody's interest (including Apple, Adobe, Microsoft etc.) if they know more operating systems and play with the software which de-facto standard of the day or the bleeding edge of the technology.

It seems you are in Britain. If purchasing Leopard is not a big financial shock for your family budget (and it seems it is not) go ahead and order it! This will help Apple to innovate and, indirectly, will compensate for those who have the right to use today's technology but can not afford the luxe to use it without stealing.

I could easily download a copy if I wanted to - but I tend to take the moral high ground for three reasons.

Firstly, I like to have the official box - its like people who say, "why not get it out of the library" when it comes to books. I like to own the copy - not borrow some other buggers.

The second is its stealing - no excuses justify it. Yes, they're a multi-billion dollar organisation but at the same time, thats no excuse.

Thirdly, one doesn't know what people have done to these images - I don't trust people these days; dick heads who tweak around with things and claim its 'untouched'.

Do what you like, but if you install off a torrent and you have problems/bugs, you won't know if it was a bad download or not. If you think your time is worth undoing the damage of a bad install to save that amount of money go ahead, but I remember reading problems with torrent installs.

Spend the cash or just install Linux.

"Do as you would be done by"

If you steal then you can't complain if people steal from you.

Would you walk into the Apple Store and steal it off the shelf?
Downloading it illegally is just the same, it is theft.

Ian

not really. downloading is transferring information or data. Stealing a boxed dvd from a shop is a criminal offence. Certainly different, both legally and ethically. Also its not really the same as someone stealing from you because your version of stealing implies stealing a personal effect, which can hardly be compared to stealing an operating system from a corporation.

Also its really not that difficult to do, and you don't have to burn a DL dvd.

Having said that, I can say that I got my copy off the internet and it works perfectly. It didn't take 3 days to download either (more like an hour and a half), and I didn't have to burn a DL dvd (nor edit down the data to fit it on a SL dvd). However if you want advice on doing I won't be the person to give it. If you want to pirate software thats your lookout, and you can easily obtain information for how to go about it with a google search or two.

And you think that downloading it is not a criminal offense? I agree with you that the impact of stealing objects from someone is different than data - but it's still stealing and you can't say it has no impact at all. I'm not being biased on this either, I've done my fair share of illegal downloading but I respect Apple enough to buy their products.

actually downloading isn't a criminal offence. it's illegal, but not criminal.. Well speaking for where I live anyway..

Then you have no morals.

Legally and ethically they are both the same.

You are a common thief.
It makes not difference if it is from a person or a corporation, it is still theft.

The world is in the state it is in at the moment due to people like you who have no respect for others. You justify stealing by trying to make out that corporations don't matter, when in effect you are stealing from individuals. People who buy the software and share holders are being affected by your stealing. Don't hide behind a corporation, and try to cover up your criminal activity.

I really hope that someone sees you as being better of then them and therefore justified to steal from you, just as you are making out a corporation are better of than you and it won't matter.

Hopefully someone will steal something from you. Why should I care you mean nothing to me!

I love how someone comes onto the internet asking people they don't know if it is okay to steal something.

Go ahead. Steal it. Yeah. That should make you feel all better now.

As for me, I have found Leopard to be simply the best version of OSX ever. Worth every dime.

OK - I'm not going to delete anything, but Archstudent is on my list. Any threads he starts in Genius Bar or elsewhere, asking for any help with OS X, will be unceremoniously deleted and appropriate action taken.

Of course, in addition, any discussion of how to download pirated copies of software is against the posting guidelines and will affect posting privileges.

Despite Apple being really stupid about how they handled Java 6 on Leopard, I believe they deserve my money for the fantastic work they did with their latest OS.

I just went out and bought a copy last night. The only part of it I haven't tried is Time Machine, which is scheduled to start running in 8 minutes.

It is easy to blame Apple for this but it is not that simple as it may look. Politics aside, Apple had hard time shipping the OS in time. No surprise third party technology was not the #1 in their priority list. There will be Java 6 on OS X in I a couple of months I hope.

I'll just apologise for causing any offence. I do not condone piracy and have not personally ever been involved in piracy myself. Again, just really to retract my previous comment and apologise for inappropriate comment in the forum.

So....you were just joking about getting it from the internet and it not taking 3 days and....

It will take awhile before i pay any attention to your comments.

piracy is distributing software, not downloading it. I can download whatever the hell I like. Anyway I don't really care what you think - what a stupid non comment.

I'm quite amazed and surprised at your view of intellectual property. Especially if you truly are an architecture student as your name implies.

I'm surprised (I won't stretch the hyperbole to amazed), that you can judge my view of intellectual property without hearing it! One line on a BBS can be interpreted in many ways I would say, and certainly does not give you the wherewithal to claim expertise on the subject of my views regarding intellectual property. If you really want a discussion of intellectual property I am always open to discuss, debate etc - but it seems to me like you want to react to what I write, and to jump to conclusions!

I read the threads above. I think I've got an idea about how you respect IP.

Again I'm surprised at your position. You'll be a producer of IP one day and will depend on others to respect it and governments to enforce laws to protect it.

That's just patronising. I'm afraid I won't bow to your "wisdom". I'd like to hear how you define theft of IP backtomac.

Leopard is cheap enough considering what you're getting...if you can't afford it stick with Tiger until you can. Now paying $200 or $300 for Microsoft office when they hardly develop it at all....feel free to torrent that to your heart's content!!!

I'll just know that when your construction foreman takes a copy of your blueprints and makes his home from them that you won't take issue. "I can photocopy whatever I please for my own use," he'll say. "Piracy is distributing it."

so what? Architects get paid for a service. Once you've been paid for that service you've been paid. On the other hand, if he went around taking money from people using my blueprint, I can take him to court.

Using bittorrent to download leopard is IP theft in my view. I'm sure there are other forms of IP theft, but I'm not a legal expert in the field.

A little story for you. A few years back I built the home I live in now. I purchased blueprints from an architectural firm in Atlanta. How would you feel if I moved to another city and decided build the first home again? I still have the prints. Actually I purchased the sepias so they photocopy nicely. Maybe I could do a little spec building on the side. After you build it a couple of times I'm sure it gets easy.

Would that be fair to the original architect?

Hint. I only have the rights to build one home.

1) I don't use bittorrent. Why? because it is internet filesharing. I don't fileshare on the internet. Period.
2) Actually unless you are an architect I suspect you would have some difficulty with this plan. Architecture is generally site specific. The same drawings won't work necessarily work on any site.
3) If you made business out of it you could face a jail sentence.

Archstudent, I welcome your debate. I hope you are willing to conitinue.

Surely you realise that posting that you have downloaded Leopard from the internet (and yes, that is piracy), you realise that this must say something about your attitude towards IP?

1.) Do you agree that Leopard is IP?
2.) Do you agree that downloading it for free when you are expected to pay for it shows disrespect for said IP?
3.) Do you agree that if you could buy from Apple a Leopard box that contained a blank, non-usable (for anything) DVD, that no-one in their right mind would pay for it? And that probably, no one would steal it, either?
4.) Do you agree that Apple employs many hundred (at least) programmers who work exclusively on OS X?

1) I agree that leopard is IP.
2) I have to pick apart this question slightly. You're "expected" to pay for a retail copy of leopard. I don't think you're expected to pay for a downloaded copy. That would be stupid. Also, you are assuming that I will never pay for leopard. It isn't possible to get a "demo" version or "trial" version of leopard from Apple. If you want to try before you buy, you have to download the stuff. I'd feel pretty stupid if I paid for leopard and then realised it offered me no more functionality than tiger. With regard to respect it's kind of difficult to discuss since we are talking about a relationship between an individual and a corporation. But since I am a loyal customer of Apple, who has spent a lot of money on their products, yea I'd say I respect their IP.
3) No-one would pay for it in their right minds, I've seen people do pretty stupid things in the past though. How is this revelation supposed to help us?
4) I'm not sure how many programmers Apple has employed working exclusively on osX, because I have not checked. I'd imagine they have over a 100 sure. Would any of those people lose money if I were to download it? NO. If I choose to purchase a retail copy of leopard, that is irrespective of any of this other discussion. - it's consumer choice. If I want to pay for it, I'll pay for it, if I don't I won't.

I purchased super duper as a download. Why is that 'stupid'?

I think that it's debatable that downloaded software should cost less than software on physical media. But it is worth *something*.

thats not stupid, because it is a different condition. The "retail" version of superduper could be the download - and is therefore legitimate. I was making the point that it would be stupid to pay for an illegitimate copy of something, especially when you could be legally required to stop using it. In other words, when you pay for software, you are paying for the ownership of certain legal rights. If I paid for something and then didn't gain any legal rights to aforesaid IP it would be stupid.

This question actually helps us quite a lot. No backtracking for you. It demonstrates that you agree that all the value of a retail box of Leopard lies in the data stored on the DVD. (Although actually I've just realised that I did not get you to confirm that you think it is sane behaviour to pay for a normal retail copy of Leopard).

When you download for free that data over the internet, you have taken something for free that Apple expect you to pay for.

I would be happy if I could get you to agree that what you have done is nothing better than stealing. Whether stealing is justifiable or not is entirely another matter, but one can't help suspecting that the reason that you wish to insist that the two are entirely dissimilar is because you know/believe that stealing is "wrong".

Two things, just in case you are wondering:

1.) My own personal view of the morality of this situation is that if you have downloaded Leopard in order to evaluate it, that this is acceptable behaviour. 30 days seems reasonable, after this period of time you should delete it or buy it, but of course that is entirely my own opinion.

2.) I am a Humanist. (i.e., a non-religious nut-job on a part-time morality crusade as opposed to a religious nut-job on a part-time morality crusade )

Apple expect you to pay for legal rights. You aren't paying for data.

Interesting that you are a humanist. There are many aspects of humanism that I believe in. I don't believe in universal, black and white, wrong/right scenarios though.

In any case, I'm not here to debate right and wrong. I am merely debating what the difference is between different actions. I was mainly opposing the view that stealing someone's personal effect is very different from downloading data, to which a corporation holds copyright.

Anyway. I definately did not download leopard! I've never even used it. End of my debate on this.

If Apple didn't create the data or sell it to anyone, they wouldn't be able to impart those rights. The two are inter-twined. But the fact still stands that Apple (the creator of the data and the issuer of the rights to use the data) are expecting you to pay for the use of the data that you are using and you have not done so.


I'm not a philosopher so the intricacies of moral philosophies really start to hurt my head. As I understand it, Moral Universalism states that morality applies equally to all people irrespective of their race, sexuality, gender etc. etc. it does not imply black or white, right or wrong though. For example, I believe that both shoplifting and genocide are "wrong", but to simply leave it at that would be ridiculous. There is a sliding scale here, with genocide being several orders of magnitude more "wrong" than shoplifting.


Huh? Then why did you say you did?

Tools and your city on a hill:

Digital theft is still theft. We should buy the products we use. However, are all people who steal bad people? You say this on the internet, but if/when some poor college kid or 3rd world mud-hut hopeful downloads leopard, should they really burn in hell? Aside from that, everyone and their brother is stealing leopard and stealing cs3. Everyone "knows a guy" so why are you surprised?

For me the moral dilemma is the following: would I buy it if I didnt get it for free. Most often, the answer is no. I won't listen to "Superman" more than twice, so I would not buy the track under any circumstances. I suck at photoshop, and basically use it to tool around and make things color/black & white. It costs almost $1000, so I would never comprehensibly buy it. Adobe isn't losing money because I would never buy cs3 under any circumstances.

Leopard is something I would probably buy if I didnt have free access to it. So I will buy it probably. Movies are things I typically do buy. But if they're not going to make any money off of me otherwise, I don't feel bad for downloading/using, etc. Feel free to crucify me. I hope every third world apple user steals leopard...and the socially conscious probably agree with me. Don't let the man get you down.

sorry instead of universal, I should have written absolute, but it was late and I was tired. What I meant was a view of morality whereby an action can be necessarily wrong irrespective of circumstance. So things considered wrong would always be wrong, in any situation - a starving child who steals food to survive would still be wrong - because the idea of theft is viewed by some unshakeable standard. I guess the "philosopic" term for this is moral absolutism. On reflection, moral universalism is a somewhat different debate, although it seems to be somewhat of a truism.

never heard of playing the devil's advocate?