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Who thinks OS X is way to complicated!

post #1 of 64
Thread Starter 
If you want to suft the net check, E-mail, Right a letter, or make an iMove OS X is great. But if you want to Try to fix your system, setup users with selected folder they can acsses, mess with network settings, connect to a server, anything slightly advanced OS X is not intuitive and takes time and ether far amount of computer knolage or a users manual. This kinda pisses me off! OS X has SO much potental in these areas! Right now they are just flat out to hard to do to call them selves a part of a MAc OS.

Dose anyone else feel the same way?

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[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Michaelm8000 ]</p>
post #2 of 64
[quote]Originally posted by Michaelm8000:
<strong>If you want to suft the net check, E-mail, Right a letter, or make an iMove OS X is great. But if you want to Try to fix your system, setup users with selected folder they can acsses, mess with network settings, connect to a server, anything slightly advanced OS X is not intuitive and takes time and ether far amount of computer knolage or a users manual. This kinda pisses me off! OS X has SO much potental in these areas! Right now they are just flat out to hard to do to call them selves a part of a MAc OS.

Dose anyone else feel the same way?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Michael,
The old way of doing all that stuff was a joke and a cheap hack. Very easy to circumvent. It was not much better than Win98's multiple users, if you think about it. Now, we've got a TON more power and control, if you an administrator. Yes, it's more complicated (a little), but if you get used to the way things are done, it's much less complicated. Find yourself some good resources on NetInfo (www.stepwise.com) and you'll be on your way. I think that it's going to be a better user experience for many more people. Yes, it'll make a few people's jobs harder, but overall the structure it imposes on users is a good thing.

My family is a case in point. 5 different people using the computer, all of them scattering stuff throughout the HD while they were in 9.2. Now, in 10.1, they are much more organized and can actually FIND things.
post #3 of 64
[quote]Originally posted by Michaelm8000:
<strong>If you want to suft the net check, E-mail, Right a letter, or make an iMove OS X is great. But if you want to Try to fix your system, setup users with selected folder they can acsses, mess with network settings, connect to a server, anything slightly advanced OS X is not intuitive and takes time and ether far amount of computer knolage or a users manual. This kinda pisses me off! OS X has SO much potental in these areas! Right now they are just flat out to hard to do to call them selves a part of a MAc OS.

Dose anyone else feel the same way?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know Mm, i think it's learning curve. . Am a relative newcomer to Mac OS ('95 with a Performa 6300) and can't spell Unux but I like X and have seldom consulted Mac OS Help. Am not a Power User. Call me a 3 on a scale of X. I liked popup folder menus in 9 but I'd always convert to a window view and forget convert back before i closed the window. And window shades, man I don't know why people want those in X. Have gone for a couple apps that help my transition: SNAX, another Finder app, and Super Get Info. Check 'em out

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: yablaka ]</p>
post #4 of 64
I think it'll take time, but eventually it'll be fine and we'll find things easy like we did in OS 9.
post #5 of 64
Of course, X could have taken the XP route and simply offer no control of the OS to the user what so ever, all in the name of "simplicity"

XP won't even let you pick your own flippin' drivers for Gods sake.
post #6 of 64
Thread Starter 
I am not stuck on the OS 9 way at all. I am totally open to learn a new way. But the thing is a great OS needs to have a lot of power! You need to be able to tweak every last thing. But that kind of stuff should only be for people that want to do it that way. there needs to be an easy way with a little less features and a hard way with all the features.

Lets face it every home dose not have a UNIX administrator that knows how to use the NetiNfo Manager. Like I said, what if my grandma wants to have OS X on her iMac and have a user for her and my grampa? And network her iMac to my grampa iBook. Do you expect her to set stuff up inj Netinfo Manager? I defenetly do not. it should be as easy as all she would need in the way of help is maybe a 30min phone call to me for a little push. But that is it!

Do not get me wrong. I al all for the netinfo manager! It is really cool! But Most average joe's do NOT want to mess around with that to work there system.

Do not give me this that "get used to it, it is the way of the future, after a wail it will be as easy as OS 9". That is BS! and a cope out! Mac OS is known for being very intuitv in every thing it dose. Mac OS has been so easy that anyone could sit down on one with no computer knoleg and find out how to network then setup users with privileges do what ever!

I love OS X!! It is just the greatest OS ever! But it still has a L O N G way to go in the way of ease of use. For most things OS X is very easy like surfing the net etc, But when it comes to System matnence and trouble shooting OS X is a night mior (by mac standards, it can blow WinXP or want ever out of the water, but we have higher standards and know how it should be done )

And BTW, I can figure most of this stuff I am complaining about out. But I am think for OS X as a product and that other people might be frustrated. try to put your self in the shoes of a person that bought a mac for the first time because they know nothing about computers and they herd about the easy of use in a Mac. I think in some areas they would feel let down.

I have no dout though Apple knows about these areas that are hard to use and is working to make them all more intuitive.
post #7 of 64
[quote]Originally posted by Michaelm8000:
<strong>knolage, dose, inj, defenetly,there, wail, intuitv, knoleg, matnence </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, it seems you need a How to Book for OSX and an English course to go with it.

Relax, your complaints are valid. I'm still figuring out OSX and still waiting for a how to book on it too. Problem is that Apple will keep enhancing the OS so rapidly that any how to book out there is obsolete when its already on the shelf.

Get into the OS...keep working with it. That's how you learn anything in life....
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post #8 of 64
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Artman @_@:
<strong>
Get into the OS...keep working with it. That's how you learn anything in life....</strong><hr></blockquote>

ME! ME work WITH OS X!! Hell No! OS X Needs to Work for ME!

I know how to use OS X! I am worried about lower end users. they do not whant to spend time learning, geting uesed to, and Working with OS X. they just need every thing to be oviose.
post #9 of 64
Michael,
If your grandma wants to set up a new user for 'pa, it's easy as pie. My little sisters did that without my help at all. What you were talking about, more advanced stuff, like permissions and restrictions, etc, is a little harder. But as far as most normal people needing to setup some user accounts they never need to see NetInfo.

What I was referring to was creating groups and assigning permissions and restrictions. I might have misunderstood you. Either way, OS X is the better way, just not the familiar one. You will get used to the workflow and it will get smoothed out over time. Patience, young grasshopper.
post #10 of 64
Very well put, Michael. I agree with you.
post #11 of 64
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by torifile:
<strong>
What I was referring to was creating groups and assigning permissions and restrictions. I might have misunderstood you. Either way, OS X is the better way, just not the familiar one. You will get used to the workflow and it will get smoothed out over time. Patience, young grasshopper. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I was refering to assigning premitions and restrctions, somthign that used to be very easy in OS 9.

And I agree with you OS X kockes the socks off any other OS for a family with multi users. But that dose not mean apple needs to stop there. OS X could be much better than this, it has the potentioal!! I am sure apple knows this and they are working hard to cover all the angels of usage in OS X.

<a href="http://homepage.mac.com/mikesicons/Menu3.html" target="_blank"></a>

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Michaelm8000 ]</p>
post #12 of 64
OS X gives you premonitions?! About what?!
post #13 of 64
agree with Mike here.

Apple is about simplicitity, elegance and ease of use. it seems the geeks of the Mac world are drooling all over OS X yet the people who use the mac for its original benefits are being left behind with OS X.

OS X is no where near a ease of use breakthrough. there is still major areas that need work and are far more difficult than they have to be and than they were in OS 9.

I hope Apple has this as a priority because it IS their biggest selling strongpoint.
post #14 of 64
[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>agree with Mike here.

Apple is about simplicitity, elegance and ease of use. it seems the geeks of the Mac world are drooling all over OS X yet the people who use the mac for its original benefits are being left behind with OS X.

OS X is no where near a ease of use breakthrough. there is still major areas that need work and are far more difficult than they have to be and than they were in OS 9.

I hope Apple has this as a priority because it IS their biggest selling strongpoint.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with you, applenut. Apple needs to work on this and I have no doubt that they will get it right. And once they do, we'll have a powerful system and ease of use. They're on their way with iTunes (and the iPod). Just give them some time. I have no doubt that we'll be scratching our heads saying "why didn't someone else think of that earlier?" like we did with iTunes once they do. Have faith.

Mike,
In OS 9, the permissions and restrictions were fake. Easy to get around. Really easy, as a matter of fact. Now, they are as real as they get. We just need Apple to make a little easier. So, yes, right now X is (a little) complicated. That's half the fun of being a geek.
post #15 of 64
I agree with the notion that OSX still has a lot of maturing to do. There is still way too many rough edges. A lot of things can be done better. Believe me, I email lots of suggestions to OSX Feedback.

I think OSX will mature like OS9s GUI by version 10.3 - 10.4 or so.
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post #16 of 64
[quote]Originally posted by NeoMac:
<strong>I think OSX will mature like OS9s GUI by version 10.3 - 10.4 or so.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think that's a pretty good guess.
post #17 of 64
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by torifile:
<strong>Mike, In OS 9, the permissions and restrictions were fake. Easy to get around. Really easy, as a matter of fact. Now, they are as real as they get. We just need Apple to make a little easier. So, yes, right now X is (a little) complicated. That's half the fun of being a geek. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I do not care if OS 9's were fake. The point is apple dose not need to make it hard to use premitions inorder to make them real. They can still make it easy to use but real and hard to get around.
post #18 of 64
I don't see what you are bitching about.
I don't see why you whould have to go to netinfo to setup two diffrent profiles.
i have yet to have to do that . osX is not as hard to config as you are trying to make it seem. i think that osx does a beautiful job of workin for the user. i think that even your gram maw could use it.
As far as the system goes it's not that hard to figure out. just dig around.I think that you are making this alot harder than it is on yourself and just want to complain. This is a new system. Look around and learn it as far as it working for you i think that i does a great job of doing that.
Relax and take a look at the systemand you will find that it is not that hard to learn. Don't let others hold your hand.

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post #19 of 64
I think I'm a bit in the dark regarding this permissions stuff. Any examples that could clue me in? My only sense of this idea is in that admin can read/write more stuff than normal users, and that under the Show Info dialog for folders and files, there's a pull-down where one can set the read/write permissions for that item. Am I missing something?

Regarding profiles, is this the same or similar to users?

Thanks for the clarification. I fell like I might be able to contribute, but I feel a little ignorant right now.

post #20 of 64
one of the things that irritates me in os x is when you click on the findr icon in the dock, theres no way of hiding all apps and showing the desktop. its really irritating having a finder window pop up. also if you try to empty the tras then switch to another app and theres a problem with the trash the finder icon bounces but when you click on it instead of just showing the trash error dialog it opens a new finder window on top. try it!!
post #21 of 64
I love OS X, and would never go back to 9. I'm from the linux/unix/NeXT group of people though, so I don't have any problems with some of the more advanced features.
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post #22 of 64
[quote] one of the things that irritates me in os x is when you click on the findr icon in the dock, theres no way of hiding all apps and showing the desktop. its really irritating having a finder window pop up. also if you try to empty the tras then switch to another app and theres a problem with the trash the finder icon bounces but when you click on it instead of just showing the trash error dialog it opens a new finder window on top. try it!! <hr></blockquote>

Agreed. There needs to be a way to click on the finder icon with some modifier and move to the finder, hide other apps, and NOT open any finder windows. I don't see the need to have it automatically open a new finder window, when if someone wants one, it's only one more click away.
post #23 of 64
OSX is way too complicated for an Apple OS, in my opinion. I am still baffled as to why I have to give myself permission for Mail.App to check my e-mail and open my mailboxes.

Permissions? What? Isn't this supposed to be a MacOS?

I don't want to think to have to use the MacOS, that's not how it is supposed to be.
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post #24 of 64
[quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
<strong>

Agreed. There needs to be a way to click on the finder icon with some modifier and move to the finder, hide other apps, and NOT open any finder windows. I don't see the need to have it automatically open a new finder window, when if someone wants one, it's only one more click away.</strong><hr></blockquote>

there is a keycombo. not sure what it is right now, not in OS X but it's something like command-option-click. finder window still opens though
post #25 of 64
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>OSX is way too complicated for an Apple OS, in my opinion. I am still baffled as to why I have to give myself permission for Mail.App to check my e-mail and open my mailboxes.

Permissions? What? Isn't this supposed to be a MacOS?

I don't want to think to have to use the MacOS, that's not how it is supposed to be.</strong><hr></blockquote>

it's using keychain to remember your password.. this happened in email clients using the keychain in OS 9 also.
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post #26 of 64
OS X is too complicated to those who are accustomed to a moronified OS.

Don't get me wrong, I love the MacOS, but I am well able to understand and use more advanced OSes.

I think it's good for us to be put into a position to learn to use something a little more advanced.
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post #27 of 64
Each subsequent version of Windows seems to give the use less and less control over the operation of the OS. The theme at MS seems to be to do everything for you. This of course puts you in a position of dependency on MS. If other OSes actually expect you to know how to configure things (as you should), those who are used to the MS do-it-for-me will be clueless and just stick with Windoze. Sigh.

[quote]Originally posted by the cool gut:
<strong>Of course, X could have taken the XP route and simply offer no control of the OS to the user what so ever, all in the name of "simplicity"

XP won't even let you pick your own flippin' drivers for Gods sake.</strong><hr></blockquote>
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post #28 of 64
Uhh.. you can tell the keychain to always allow access to that password. It really isn't that complicated. If you want to avoid having things as secure as they are you can go back to the ways of system bombs and type1 errors. We won't miss you in OS X land.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>OSX is way too complicated for an Apple OS, in my opinion. I am still baffled as to why I have to give myself permission for Mail.App to check my e-mail and open my mailboxes.

Permissions? What? Isn't this supposed to be a MacOS?

I don't want to think to have to use the MacOS, that's not how it is supposed to be.</strong><hr></blockquote>
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post #29 of 64
Apple could have a switch in the Sharing control panel to completely turn off permissions except for Network users (I think if the Sharing, Users and Login control panels were merged it'll help make things easier by showing that they use the same user lists.

And make that Keychain a control panel, jeeze... make it a little bit more obvious
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post #30 of 64
I can't help but notice that when it was only the classic OS, us MACheads seemed to yell about how it was so fluid, and easy, and stable, and, USER FRIENDLY. But now that it is absolutely dense to the computer illiterate I seem to hear the opposite arguement coming from the mouths of the faithfull.

I hear the arguement that wooley-Windows users used to use.


I agree with Michael. It is very complicated and is NOT laid out in an intuitive manner. . . .even finding things is complicated if your tired and a beginner.

I won't make OS X my main drive's system till I have to, mainly because my wife will have a very hard time getting to learn it . . .she is very impatient with computers...the kind of person MACS used to be so proud of being able to please.
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post #31 of 64
I'm on the point of switching back to OS 9. I love the look of X but I hate the fact that it's really one of those Nazi OSes dressed up in a pretty uniform. I totally agree with the earlier post: my computers should work for me not the other way round, and they always used to. I have five computers in a network and I want them all to be able to share all their resources and let any user see anything on any machine. In 9 it was easy, in X it's impossible.

Don't get me wrong -- extra security is great news and in a corporate environment is essential. The defaults should all be set to maximum security out of the box. But you should be able to switch it off if you don't need it, but you can't.

Here's a challenge to you experts: How do I share those five drives (actually, six including the firewire external) under X without let or hindrance? Bear in mind that I only do three letter extensions under protest and emphatically don't go near a command line interface (ie I'm a Mac user).
post #32 of 64
[quote]Originally posted by john whitehead:
<strong>Here's a challenge to you experts: How do I share those five drives (actually, six including the firewire external) under X without let or hindrance? Bear in mind that I only do three letter extensions under protest and emphatically don't go near a command line interface (ie I'm a Mac user).</strong><hr></blockquote>

Here's three ways, one of them easy, one of them difficult, and one of them arguably expensive:

1. Download SharePoints, an add-in preference panel that makes it point-click easy to add new shares. Just pick a name, a drive (or for all drives, use "/"), and add the share--instantly you're sharing all over again.

2. Open NetInfo Manager and put in an admin password, and then.. eh, well, if you're really interested in digging in there, there's a well-written 3 or 4 step explanation of what you do to change what is shared right here: <a href="http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20011108161839416" target="_blank">http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20011108161839416</a>

3. Realize that if you need to share that much stuff and your network depends on it, you should probably be using Mac OS X Server and go buy a copy (or you could look around for it on your personal filesharing client of choice, to try it out, though that would be illegal software piracy, and Apple is a great company deserving of your money).

Hope this kinda helps.

P.S. I too think it was kinda screwed up that Apple did this to us, revoking something that was part of the regular consumer OS back in OS 9, but I'm okay and so are a lot of other people. I got it to work, one way or another. Maybe if enough people complain, however, they'll bring it back--I sure hope so.
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post #33 of 64
Actually no it doesn't. OS X is the future of Apple. If you do not like to work with it, then you can go back to 8.6.

It isn't hard to learn if you keep an open mind.

[quote]Originally posted by Michaelm8000:
<strong>

ME! ME work WITH OS X!! Hell No! OS X Needs to Work for ME!

I know how to use OS X! I am worried about lower end users. they do not whant to spend time learning, geting uesed to, and Working with OS X. they just need every thing to be oviose.</strong><hr></blockquote>
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post #34 of 64
[quote]Originally posted by hekal:
<strong>Actually no it doesn't. OS X is the future of Apple. If you do not like to work with it, then you can go back to 8.6.

It isn't hard to learn if you keep an open mind.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

I never thought mac users would lower themselves the pitiful standards you just demonstrated.

that is sad
post #35 of 64
[quote]Here's a challenge to you experts: How do I share those five drives (actually, six including the firewire external) under X without let or hindrance? Bear in mind that I only do three letter extensions under protest and emphatically don't go near a command line interface (ie I'm a Mac user). <hr></blockquote>
Lets make it more interesting. Define a Group so you can easily add more users for those shared drives. Netinfo and Terminal anyone?
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post #36 of 64
I get a message about the mail-boxes being read-only. Nothing at all to do with my password to the POP server.

Why do I have to re-enter my password to install some apps? I'm already friggin' logged in!

What's all this talk about not having control over Windows?
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post #37 of 64
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by hekal:
<strong>Actually no it doesn't. OS X is the future of Apple. If you do not like to work with it, then you can go back to 8.6.

It isn't hard to learn if you keep an open mind.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just beacuse OS X is the future of Apple dose not mean it is the best it can be. Althogh I think OS X is just the coolest and best OS out there it has not yet filled it's potental. What you are saying is: Well, Apple mad OS X a little harder to use, humm, guess I will have to live with it. That is total BS! Apple needs to fill OS X's potental with these lesft out features wail making it a lot easyer to use.

Think of your self as a boss incharge of your computer, an isistant that you hired to work just for you. It help you get information, comulicate and creat things that you never could beafor. Like any other employe, it is expected to do what the boss tells it to do, affter all you are paying it. The employe dose not tell the boss what to do.

So why should I (the Boss),who payed $2599, work with my computer. Why should I have to go all over the internet and download shareware apps, and read articals on how to use my computer. The isistant (my computer), withc cost $2599, should be working with me to help me get all of the things I need to get done.

it is really simple.

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[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Michaelm8000 ]</p>
post #38 of 64
Michael --Yes yes... well put.

And I will rephrase:

5 Years ago:
Macuser --Its so easy, you don't have to fiddle with a buncha stuff, it's "user friendly" --and boy-o-boy, it's the best at those there graphic programs!!!!
PC user --But this is real computing power, the ability to get in to the real nitty gritty and make a difference . . . not cookie-cutter computing

5 Years later:
Macuser -- this is real computing power,the ability to get in to the real nitty gritty and THINK different (different than the tried and true ease-of-use)
PC user --yeah but we got 2Ghz and pretty shapes and all the peripherals work, and they are cheaper, faster (sure they're out of control but so what) and everybody else is using them too!.


The problem is is that Apple pays too much attention to these Apple-fanatic sites where everybody who posts knows how to set up a TCP_IP network, and knows what a port sniffer is (not me though) . . . they are targetting their OS for these people and they will lose what support they had that was due to the "user friendliness" --at least this is what I fear.

I hope that they will work to simplify in the next OS X upgrades . . . To merge the old ETHOS with the supposed computing benifits of "fiddling about"

[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
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"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

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"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #39 of 64
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>The problem is is that Apple pays too much attention to these Apple-fanatic sites where everybody who posts knows how to set up a TCP_IP network, and knows what a port sniffer is (not me though) . . . they are targetting their OS for these people and they will lose what support they had that was due to the "user friendliness" --at least this is what I fear.

I hope that they will work to simplify in the next OS X upgrades . . . To merge the old ETHOS with the supposed computing benifits of "fiddling about"

[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: pfflam ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


Yes Apple is doing that. And that is great!!! there are a lot of people out there that know how to do all this stuff. And they need a great Apple OS to. But they can not let that take down the easy of use by any means at all! If Apple can pull of a SUPER power full, and SUPER easy to use OS they will really outdo them selves (and the rest of the industery). And when I say easy to use I am talking all features, the powerfullones and the basic ones. Right now OS X feels like a really powerfull OS that is pretty easy to use. But still it is the best thing out there. But that is not good enogh for me.

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[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Michaelm8000 ]</p>
post #40 of 64
Oh quit being whiners. How many users need to worry about permissions? How many users care? I can only see one reason they would, and that would be filesharing. Which is solved very well by how users on the same computer can access (read and write) just about everything other than that in other users' Home folders, and how Public folders are shared when you turn filesharing on. Seems like it works pretty good for most dummies. (And if you're not dummy, surely you can install a piece of software called SharePoints as I pointed out above, or dig into NIM, or if you otherewise want o screw with permissions, get a UNIX manual and discover Terminal.app.) Besides, there is never going to be an easy way for a user to go around tweaking permissions on files scattered around the whole unix system--it wasn't exactly easy nor elegant in OS 9, and it hasn't improved much with OS X, but a solution has at least been put in place so users don't HAVE to mess with all of that.

Damn, it isn't even that hard. If you need-to-know, you should be in-the-know, Michael.

*mutters something about go-tards*
art may imitate life, but life imitates tv.
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art may imitate life, but life imitates tv.
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