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Blu-ray vs. HD DVD (2008) - Page 8

post #281 of 2640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post

No wonder you didn't join in then mate! at one point in these threads NOT having either player might have gotten you shot at..

LOL!
post #282 of 2640
Thread Starter 
Speaking of karma...Microsoft had it comin...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHja_cr2ZVs
post #283 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCodger73 View Post

One thing I haven't seen discussed is what kind of pressure will this put on Universal to go format neutral. Will they feel they'll have to tap into the larger and soon to be even larger BD market? Anyone have any thoughts on this.

If I were Univeral, I wouldn't bother until if and when Warner's decision affects Blu-Ray's marketshare. It'll be interesting to see if the Blu-Ray format begins to venture out beyond a PS3 movie format now, or if high definition movies remain a niche product regardless of there being a clearer winner today.
post #284 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Look, we all know that the Blu-ray studios got incentives at the beginning. Why else did they choose a format that costs far more to produce?

Maybe it's because it's got even more DRM than HD-DVD?

I haven't really been participating in any of these annual Blu-ray Vs. HD-DVD threads, just looking on a bit confused as to why people are so happy to back a format that perpetuates the deeply irritating region-coding and gives studios even more control than HD-DVD does.

Everyone is in it for the $ and more control by studios would mean opportunity for studios to make even more money in the end. I can see the incentives even without the bribery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

(for the record I don't have an HD player of either format and probably won't for another couple of years)

I believe there will be many thinking the same way, unless Universal and Paramount go neutral at CES 2008, which is very doubtful. This news will keep the consumers away while the HDM will remain popular enthusiasts format via combo/(BD-HD player)/PC drive.

I'm afraid that Warner Bros news may keep the HDM market in the niche even longer as long as the there are remaining HD-DVD exclusive supporting studios. I believe a better decision from studios to keep HDM alive or become mass friendly would have been for every studios going neutral along with cheaper combo players in the future. Well, niche or mass, I will still have HDM's.

I just hope Warner releases some of the anticipated HD-DVD titles before May 2008. I'm not planing on getting a standalone Blu-Ray player unless combo player with profile 1.1/2.0(optional) can be had for $299 or less.... or a combo PC drive for around $99.

Now... time to wait for the CES2008 announcements.....
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post #285 of 2640
Thread Starter 
Corey, Bitemymac, Mr.H, Frank777,

This one is for you...

Warner: No Payoff for Move to Blu-ray

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/1327

Quote:
Warner Home Entertainment President Kevin Tsujihara says the studio took no pay-offs to exclusively back Blu-ray.

In a post-announcement conference call, Tsujihara flatly denied rumors that studio had accepted anywhere from 250M to $500M in exchange for dropping its HD DVD format support.

According to the exec, Warner's sole motivation in dropping its HD DVD format support was to ensure growth of the "category" and the long-term health of the industry.

"The packaged media business is a $42 billion dollar business worldwide at the retail level, and we [Warner] have the largest market share of anybody," said Tsujihara. "From our perspective, the most important piece of this whole puzzle is, "How do we get growth back into this category?" That far outweighed anything else."

This [decision] was one hundred percent around what makes the most sense for the consumer, the retailer and the industry. This was not a bidding war. This was all about what was best, strategically, for us."

Stay tuned for more news from the Tsujihara conference call shortly...

Great stories from you all, but most of us here know better. Blu-ray was the superior format in every way and that is why Warner chose Blu.
post #286 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post

Now... time to wait for the CES2008 announcements.....

I bet Toshiba's scrambling to revise their 2-hour HD DVD presentation

Someone on the AVS forum suggested Toshiba become the leader in combo players; not a bad idea at all. Lord knows they won't sell many more HD DVD-only players.
post #287 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

I bet Toshiba's scrambling to revise their 2-hour HD DVD presentation

Someone on the AVS forum suggested Toshiba become the leader in combo players; not a bad idea at all. Lord knows they won't sell many more HD DVD-only players.

Apparently there won't be any presentation:

http://wesleytech.com/ces-hd-dvd-eve...ouncement/483/
post #288 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by beg View Post

Apparently there won't be any presentation:

http://wesleytech.com/ces-hd-dvd-eve...ouncement/483/

Wow, I guess they didn't have anything positive to announce for HD DVD \
post #289 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7 View Post

Blu-ray was the superior format in every way and that is why Warner chose Blu.

Not in every way. It has more restrictive DRM and thus is less consumer friendly.

That Sony has won a media battle in the internet era with a format with the most restrictive DRM will only embolden them and other content and technology companies who want to lock down media in the future. That Blu-Ray's fanboys aggressively pushed the format without demanding the DRM be cut loose has left us in a precarious position, rights-wise.

Enjoy your victory of the studios over the consumers. While I'm glad to soon have HDM to do backups on my Mac, I currently have no plans to adopt Blu-Ray in my TV room until all its DRM is well and truly broken. For now, upscaled DVDs are fine for me, and downloads will serve well for rental purposes.
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post #290 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Not in every way. It has more restrictive DRM and thus is less consumer friendly.

That Sony has won a media battle in the internet era with a format with the most restrictive DRM will only embolden them and other content and technology companies who want to lock down media in the future. That Blu-Ray's fanboys aggressively pushed the format without demanding the DRM be cut loose has left us in a precarious position, rights-wise.

Enjoy your victory of the studios over the consumers. While I'm glad to soon have HDM to do backups on my Mac, I currently have no plans to adopt Blu-Ray in my TV room until all its DRM is well and truly broken. For now, upscaled DVDs are fine for me, and downloads will serve well for rental purposes.

Freaking cry me a river. Give it a rest. Why don't you sue Apple/iTunes while your at it too.
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post #291 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by beg View Post

Apparently there won't be any presentation:

http://wesleytech.com/ces-hd-dvd-eve...ouncement/483/

Quote:
“Based on the timing of the Warner Home Video announcement today, we have decided to postpone our CES 2008 press conference scheduled for Sunday, January 6th at 8:30 p.m. in the Wynn Hotel. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
We are currently discussing the potential impact of this announcement with the other HD DVD partner companies and evaluating next steps. We believe the consumer continues to benefit from HD DVD’s commitment to quality and affordability – a bar that is critical for the mainstream success of any format.

We’ll continue to keep you updated on new developments around HD DVD.”

HD DVD is in trouble

If there is one thing that everyone is agreeing on, it is that the HD DVD is in trouble due to the Warner announcement. This decision to cancel the HD DVD press event further proves that the defection of Warner Brothers studios from the HD DVD camp is a major blow.

I am very disappointed that they have canceled the event. I would have liked to see them try to explain this move or attempt to put some type of positive spin on it. I guess I will only be attending the Blu-ray CES event this year! Stay tuned to this site for CES 2008 coverage!


Talk about throwing in the towel. I'm so glad to see it end. I love the fact that even in end they still try and play it off as if HD-DVD is cheaper, a blatant lye, therefore more consumer friendly. Don't these assholes read the statistics? Blu Ray was kicking their ass already. Freaking idiots. They can't even go down with any dignity.

I don't want to argue about it now, but I like to think that the original consumer outcry for Blu Ray capacity advantage over anything else had a big role to play among consumers purchasing decisions. I know it was the reason I got into Blu Ray early. I really hadn't planned on buying a high def DVD player this early, but I did because I felt I had to throw in my support for what I believed in. And I believe after looking at the technical details of both formats that Blu Ray was a superior product, and I didn't want to be that asshole that let someone else make the decisions for me. I bought in to support the cause. Pure, and simple.
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post #292 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

Why don't you sue Apple/iTunes while your at it too.

For what?
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post #293 of 2640
Great. BluRay wins. Disc drives manufacturers will spend less time incorporating dual support and focus on BluRay.

Now, can we move on?
post #294 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

For what?

This suit is what I'm comparing your statement to.

Needless to say I'm not going to finish an argument involving a tech war that is over. It's redundant.
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post #295 of 2640
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post #296 of 2640
Frank, I don't understand why the DRM is such a big issue to you. First off, (apparently) it is/almost broken. Secondly, if you are buying legitimately then what is the problem? Are you really going to back up all your movies? I'm sure your collection will survive on the shelf....scratches too. You would need a drive on your computer to do that anyways.

The DRM thing is a cop out, Toshiba would have implemented it, if they had come up with it. They are just using the lack of a DRM, invented by the other guys as a means to say "Hey, we are the good guys consumers" Bullshit!

Pros for Blu-Ray: Size (lots more to come too!), Very scratch resistant, cooler name, cooler colour (literally, it is calming and red is associated with fire and blood), almost all manufacturers backing it

Cons: An extra DRM, which MOST consumers won't even know about. Sorry to tell you Frank, most people are clueless about DRM, they buy movies and watch them...that's it. Hell, most people wouldn't know how to back up movies if you did it for them.
post #297 of 2640
Almost broken... It's been broken AFAIAC.

90+% = Most people don't give a crap about DRM anyways. I buy everything from iTunes music wise, and I could give a crap if my CD has DRM on it. I'm not doing anything illegitimately with it anyway so what would I care for? 90% of people feel the same way. DRM in one form or another has been in existence for years, and nobody really cares that it's there because there isn't anything they do that changes the fact that they have what they want when they buy it. A Movie, a CD, a Video tape. It does everything they want it to.
Regardless, HD DRM was broken before the first Blu Ray player was ever shipped anyway. For those who want to backup a 25+GB disk the tools are online - go find them. There are not that many people that feel the need to do that with blu ray because they are durable as all hell anyway. AFAIAC this DRM BS is just whining.
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post #298 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

AFAIAC this DRM BS is just whining.

Not at all.

Do you know what the suggested retail price, for example, the Pirates of the Caribbean 3 blu-ray is in the U.K.? £29.99. That's $60! For one movie! The region-coding DRM layer allows studios to continue to rip-off all markets outside the U.S.

In addition, whilst building a server-based collection of HD movies would currently eat up HDD space a bit too quickly, it's not going to be that long until multi-terabyte storage is reasonably priced. The idea of having all one's movies stored on a server and accessing them over the network is highly appealing. iTunes works great for music and a similar thing for movies would be great.

There's no doubt in my mind that the failure of the AppleTV is related to the DRM on DVDs and the fact that studios don't want them ripped - if iTunes had the ability to rip DVDs, and later (when HDD space allows) HD discs it would really help the AppleTV's cause.
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post #299 of 2640
BINGO!!! NEW LINE GOES BLU RAY EXCLUSIVELY... one nail one coffin coming right up.

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=808
post #300 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Not at all.

Do you know what the suggested retail price, for example, the Pirates of the Caribbean 3 blu-ray is in the U.K.? £29.99. That's $60! For one movie! The region-coding DRM layer allows studios to continue to rip-off all markets outside the U.S.

In addition, whilst building a server-based collection of HD movies would currently eat up HDD space a bit too quickly, it's not going to be that long until multi-terabyte storage is reasonably priced. The idea of having all one's movies stored on a server and accessing them over the network is highly appealing. iTunes works great for music and a similar thing for movies would be great.

There's no doubt in my mind that the failure of the AppleTV is related to the DRM on DVDs and the fact that studios don't want them ripped - if iTunes had the ability to rip DVDs, and later (when HDD space allows) HD discs it would really help the AppleTV's cause.

And someone finally gets it!

The future is personal VOD. I can do it now with my AppleTV, network storage, and DVDs. I like the idea of sitting at my couch with the girlfriend, or a group of people, and surfing through all the movies to pick one out. It impresses the hell out of everyone, and I don't need to go to the shelf to name off everything, load the DVD player, wade through the crap FBI warning and menus. HD DVD had this going, in so much as no region coding and only AACS. For all current titles, I could start to build a VOD library using a mac mini and Front Row 2.0.

However, AACS hasn't been broken (let alone BD+). AACS has been circumvented for current titles because a Processing Key was obtained from current computer playing software. If the AACS-LA got smart, they would stop issuing keys to PowerDVD and WinDVD, and it would be months (maybe years) before another key was found from a hardware player that could be used.
post #301 of 2640
You're probably right that the future is personal VOD, but it's not in my near future. Technically possible and logistically feasible are two different things. My take on VOD is that it should work when *I* demand it, and that doesn't happen now for me in HD (or even in SD if truth be told).
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post #302 of 2640
We all get the personal storage server concept. It's been around for over a decade.

What people need to get is that as graphics technologies improve, bit depth per channel expands and total size of video content expands as it becomes more rich and complex.

HD 1080p today will eventually be replaced in ten years with higher resolution solutions.

Storage will always expand.

Modeling non-linear dynamic systems takes massive information just to mimic a fraction of reality.

It's daunting but definitely ensures IT companies in certain markets guaranteed future revenues and incentives to expand and improve their solutions.
post #303 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

HD 1080p today will eventually be replaced in ten years with higher resolution solutions.

Doubtful in the home market. At screen sizes and viewing distances found in the home, 1080p HD is already near the limit of the eye's perception. It is doubtful that people would be able to perceive, let alone appreciate, higher definition than 1080p.

Higher resolution digital distribution will come for cinemas, and possibly the high-end of home-cinema, but I doubt it'll ever go mainstream. See high-resolution audio for an example of another related market where this has already happened.

Maybe 3-D will happen, but that's been in the offing for decades and has never happened.
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post #304 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Not at all.

Do you know what the suggested retail price, for example, the Pirates of the Caribbean 3 blu-ray is in the U.K.? £29.99. That's $60! For one movie! The region-coding DRM layer allows studios to continue to rip-off all markets outside the U.S.

and rip off Britain isn't used to that? but dear smart and intellectual guru of all things, what, may I ask is the actual street price? FAR lower and only set to drop. £16 online?

I remember purchasing DVDs in 2000 in the UK for £25 a pop 3 years after they had launched. but yet I believe we are only 18 months or so into this new format. RRPS mean fuck all, AND you know it!
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post #305 of 2640
Is what I hearing true? Newline cinema have just went Blu exclusive?
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post #306 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post

Is what I hearing true? Newline cinema have just went Blu exclusive?

Isn't New Line a subsidiary of Time Warner?

If so, then it was inevitable when Warner went.
post #307 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

This suit is what I'm comparing your statement to.

Needless to say I'm not going to finish an argument involving a tech war that is over. It's redundant.

That's not the same thing at all. Apple only implemented DRM in iTunes at the behest of the labels, and even then built-in support for open AAC and MP3 standards. You can always burn your music to a CD and re-rip it, if for some reason Fairplay is abandoned later on.

The sad thing is that Sony Music just capitulated to the open music market and, if given a bit more time and pressure from their fanboys, Sony might have caved on the draconian DRM on Blu-Ray as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam'ron View Post

Frank, I don't understand why the DRM is such a big issue to you. First off, (apparently) it is/almost broken. Secondly, if you are buying legitimately then what is the problem? Are you really going to back up all your movies? I'm sure your collection will survive on the shelf....scratches too. You would need a drive on your computer to do that anyways...

...Cons: An extra DRM, which MOST consumers won't even know about. Sorry to tell you Frank, most people are clueless about DRM, they buy movies and watch them...that's it. Hell, most people wouldn't know how to back up movies if you did it for them.

I agree that most people don't understand the issues here. But most don't understand the Mac is superior to Windows either. I prefer Capitalism as an economic system, but Big Media has basically just been allowed to push everyone to abandon VHS for DVD, then push everyone to abandon DVD for Blu-Ray, and will soon push everyone to buy digital copies of the same films they already have for home server use.

That's insane, by almost any standard.
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post #308 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Slocombe View Post

RRPS mean fuck all, AND you know it!

I wouldn't say they mean fuck-all. Bricks and mortar stores charge pretty close to the RRP. Why anyone still buys things like DVDs at bricks and mortar stores with prices like that is beyond me, but they do.

However, even at £16 (and I have a problem believing the legitimacy of the website selling it at £16 which is severely undercutting everyone else), that's $32. Looks like there's a number of online places selling it for $23 - $25 in the U.S.
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post #309 of 2640
post #310 of 2640
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Originally Posted by dcd View Post

Blah, blah, blah...

Thanks for joining?
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post #311 of 2640
Isn't the Lord of the Ring trilogy from New Line?
post #312 of 2640
It is indeed
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post #313 of 2640
I'm done with this round of media folks.

I'll buy a Blu-ray player for the big titles but my desire to collect movies is done. I'm disguested with all of these studios. I see what Apple has to deal with when trying to negotiate deals with snakes.

It's 2008. I don't think it's to out of place to have networked players and features like Managed Copy.

Managed Copy is dead.

These formats were sold as the next big thing yet all I'm seeing are pumped up DVDs. Even the best menus and interactivity to me pale to the possibility of playing content off a Media Server.

In 5 years downloads will overtake optical HDM sales. This will be caused by faster broadband options across the Globe and better compression methods hitting the market that will drop a 720p movie down to under 4Gb.
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post #314 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcd View Post

Blue-Ray sucks!

It might take longer to do, but Blu-Ray protection will almost certainly be cracked. Blu-Ray suffers from the same vulnerability that all single-ended encryption suffers: you couldn't play the media at all if someone wasn't giving you both the encrypted message and the key to descramble it. The fact that you can see a viewable picture on your screen means that you must have been given the key that decrypts the content of your discs and puts that viewable picture up there where you can see it.

Also, since new Blu-Ray releases are supposed to remain compatible with older Blu-Ray players, and Blu-Ray players aren't required to "phone home" to get key updates, then all the decryption keys you'll ever need must be built into every Blu-Ray player. (The same argument goes for HD-DVD, of course.)

Once someone reverse-engineers the complete process going on inside any Blu-Ray player, the cat is then out of the bag and can't be put back in. The only trick the studios can play is to try to hold back on using one or more DRM variations -- variations which nevertheless have to be built into the oldest Blu-Ray players out there right now -- and hope that, with no software released for the hackers to test their hacks with -- they can switch to a variant in the wake of each successful hack, and hope that the hack wasn't complete.

It may take only months. It could be a year or several years. But I'd say it's 99% certain that the Blu-Ray DRM will be cracked within the next few years, and we'll be able to rip HD content just as we've been able to rip standard DVDs for the past few years.

Since HD-DVD is now beginning to look like it's going to get beaten, but I already own a few HD-DVD movies, I hope that some hacker remains interested enough in cracking HD-DVD too, so I'll be able to transfer content from HD-DVD to Blu-Ray. Then again, the number of discs I have is small enough that it might be easier to bite the bullet and re-buy those titles as Blu-Ray, rather than have to scrounge up an HD-DVD drive to do the conversion, and blank Blu-Ray media at cheap enough a price to be worth the effort.
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post #315 of 2640
I'm not sure why people keep saying Blu Ray DRM will be cracked when it is already cracked? It was cracked before the first Blu Ray disk player was ever sold in the US.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-ente...ked-236213.php
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post #316 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

I'm not sure why people keep saying Blu Ray DRM will be cracked when it is already cracked? It was cracked before the first Blu Ray disk player was ever sold in the US.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-ente...ked-236213.php

Head over to doom9 to get a better understanding: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=122363

AACS has not been completely hacked/cracked. All that has been done is for all current releases, processing keys have been found from software players. This allows all CURRENT titles to be decrypted. However, in short order, the next revocation will occur, and new keys will need to be found. Each time it will become more difficult as the software makers try and hide the keys more and more and close the previous holes. So, while all current titles will forever be unlocked, future titles need new keys, and nothing is guaranteed. This is very different from CSS, when it was busted open and all DVDs (past, present, and future) are unlockable.
post #317 of 2640
(Edit: kupan787's response to onlooker made my response to onlooker not make sense.)
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post #318 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by kupan787 View Post

AACS has not been completely hacked/cracked. All that has been done is for all current releases, processing keys have been found from software players. This allows all CURRENT titles to be decrypted. However, in short order, the next revocation will occur, and new keys will need to be found. Each time it will become more difficult as the software makers try and hide the keys more and more and close the previous holes. So, while all current titles will forever be unlocked, future titles need new keys, and nothing is guaranteed. This is very different from CSS, when it was busted open and all DVDs (past, present, and future) are unlockable.

Future titles may use new keys, but those keys have to be built into the current hardware, or some master key to decrypt new keys stored on the disc, or else old Blu-Ray players wouldn't be able to play newer releases without getting a firmware update.

If anything, it should get harder for the disc makers to effectively hide new keys, not harder for hackers to find them.
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post #319 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

Future titles may use new keys, but those keys have to be built into the current hardware, or some master key to decrypt new keys stored on the disc, or else old Blu-Ray players wouldn't be able to play newer releases without getting a firmware update.

If anything, it should get harder for the disc makers to effectively hide new keys, not harder for hackers to find them.

I agree with that, and would like to note that kupan787 is totally speculating. The Fact is the new keys are popping up in same place as the old keys. They get found, they are posted, and you go get them. How hard can it be to wait two hours after a movie is sold for someone to post the key for you? it's not even difficult to get it yourself.

Regardless HD-DVD is now dead, and no matter how much people cry about it it's not coming back. Get over it, and live with it.
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post #320 of 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Doubtful in the home market. At screen sizes and viewing distances found in the home, 1080p HD is already near the limit of the eye's perception. It is doubtful that people would be able to perceive, let alone appreciate, higher definition than 1080p.

Higher resolution digital distribution will come for cinemas, and possibly the high-end of home-cinema, but I doubt it'll ever go mainstream. See high-resolution audio for an example of another related market where this has already happened.

Maybe 3-D will happen, but that's been in the offing for decades and has never happened.

And the earth is flat, and man will never be able to fly, and the moon is made of cheese, and every "new" invention has already been invented...
People have been making statements like yours forever, yet technology keeps improving.
We will DEFINITELY have better than 1080p in the average home in the not too distant future. Whether that means 5 years or 25 years is anyones guess, but it'll certainly happen.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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