Blu-ray vs. HD DVD (2008) - Page 9

I only skimmed the material kupan787 linked to, so I can't say I follow all of it completely at this point, but this much is what I get out of it so far: if you break into the Subset-Difference Tree stored inside the silicon which is built into any AACS player, you've got the whole enchilada. Before that, you can only skim off the keys that are revealed by playing current titles.

It wouldn't surprise me if there was extra, unnecessary data stored in various copies of the Subset-Difference Tree, so that if a manufacture lets the secrets they've been entrusted with slip out, the extra data will ID the source of the leak.

If and when Blu-Ray takes off (killing off HD DVD doesn't necessarily mean Blu-Ray will become as popular as standard DVD has become), and there are many millions of players in use all over the world, it will become harder and harder to keep the complete Subset-Difference Tree under wraps. Once that's out, the whole encryption/decryption process becomes nothing more than an incredibly byzantine exercise in futility. Even before that, by skimming off individual sub-keys as new titles are released, the DRM becomes nothing more than a temporary nuisance to be solved every few weeks or months, however often the keys in current use are cycled.

This is an issue of human perceptual limits, not an issue of technical possibilities. Unless you're looking ahead to bio-engineering, and a time when we can buy better eyes to go along with better media.

I have a 70" HD display at home. I sit about 12 feet away from it. Before buying the TV, I calculated how big each individual pixel would be, measured in arc-minutes, as seen from my favorite viewing position. I think I remember getting something like 0.9 arc-seconds, which is just below the 1 arc-second limit of human visual acuity. This means that even with a big screen like 70", not only are static details finer than one can perceive, the difference between 1080i and 1080p is going to be barely perceptible as well.

Then again, just like the world of high-end audio has its supposed "golden ears" who make claims of perceptual acuity equivalent to being able to hear a mouse piss on a cotton ball while someone is running a jackhammer at the same time, there will no doubt be "golden eyes" who'll still complain that 2160p isn't "good enough" for their refined senses.

I am not going to try and pretend to know everything about AACS, but there are some very smart people over at doom9. If you care, i'd suggest reading the thread I posted (and maybe a few of the other stickies in that forum), as you can learn a lot about how the keys work (there are many different keys, and different levels of keys), how revocation works, etc. Hell, AACS hasn't been fully used yet. They can still do things like sequence keys, multiple processing keys, etc without breaking a single player out there. AACS was developed much smarter than CSS.


onlooker, I am not "totally speculating". Read the threads, and see what others are saying. This was a wall that was being climbed for both HD DVD and Blu-Ray, neither were completely broken open as you have claimed here repeatedly.

And the comment about "not even difficult to get yourself" shows your complete non-understanding of the situation. I'd love to see you obtain a volume key, device key, or processing key.

Most of the digital remasters/restorations are done in 4k and when market/consumers are ready, the studios will be ready to go after your wallets once again. However, finding the need for the mass and trying to sell off the 2nd round of Higher Def upgrades may be something even more difficult. If you have not noticed, the mass still has not bought into the first round of HiDef upgrades, yet. So far, it's been all for the niche AV enthusiasts.... oh... and PS3 owners toy.

I like the way you totally ignored my example of high-resolution audio for evidence that once the limits of human perception are reached, most people will not buy into a technology just because it is technically superior. If you can't appreciate the extra resolution, what's the point?


Indeed, but 2160p or whatever will never gain mainstream success, just as SACD and DVD-Audio have failed. As I said, higher than 1080p will remain in the realm of cinemas and niche high-end home cinema.

What would be nice is if the studios upped movie frame rates from 24 to 60 fps.

I'm not sure whether you will like the look of it. Every movie would look like a TV show with glossy showing. It will not look like a film anymore. But, I am sure some people would like it. You can actually do this on some of the HDTV's. Have you seen 120Hz Samsung LCD TV's?... If you mis-set the viewing mode, every film will look like a TV show in HiDef. I do like the clarity of HiDef, but I am not sure whether I'll like the glossy TV show type of showing for my movies....

What TVs are doing in this case is interpolating between frames to try and smooth motion. They cannot magically create information and the technique has easily as many drawbacks as plus-points. You cannot deduce from what happens in this case what it would look like if 60 frames per second had originally been captured and stored on the disc.

I'm sure I have more to learn from that thread, but a quick skim -- and perhaps I got the wrong impression -- didn't leave me feeling there was gloom and doom over the breakability of the system.

The system may be very hard to crack from the outside looking in, but every single player out there has a complete copy of the complete decoding solution built into it. Eventually via a security leak in the distribution and reproduction of that solution, or via enough dedicated software and hardware hacking, and the stuff that's locked up inside the little epoxy resin packages that implement AACS will be released.

Actually, it has been shown that humans can perceive lines smaller than 1 arc second. The classic example are power lines seen by aviators that are much finer than 1 arc second. For folks with front screen projectors, some folks can see "screen door" despite the interpixel gap being smaller than 1 arc second since they are composed of vertical and horizontal lines.

Also while 20-20 vision is the basis of many calculations but there are folks with better vision.

Finally...for a 70" HD display at 12 feet you are sitting half a foot behind the maximum allowed distance for SMPTE and a foot behind the maximum for THX theaters. Meaning that you are behind the back row of any SMPTE or THX theater. You are 2 and a half feet behind where NHK HDTV specs which would allow for a 30 degree horizontal field of view that provides immersion.

1080 is the MINIMUM resolution to approximate the movie theater experience at the home.

The REFERENCE distance for SMPTE is 3 screen heights. Which for you is 8 and a half feet. At that distance the pixels will be larger than 1 arc second with a 1080p display.

2160p would be great for home theater although even higher would STILL be nice as there's something about detail being present even if you can't resolve it that makes an image more lifelike. If you ever get a chance to see a Gigapxl display in person its very cool.

http://www.gigapxl.org/

Yes, Virginia...there IS science behind the desire for better than 1080p resolution.

Actually, supporting HD DVD seems easy; in the latest combo players, it's almost exclusively Blu-Ray discs that have playback issues, and that's from a company who never made an HD DVD player prior to making a combo player. I hope nobody races out to buy a Blu-Ray player until they get around to finishing their format, and put some ethernet jacks on their players for the oft-needed compatibility updates.

The planet Venus is smaller than one arc second too, and that doesn't make it invisible. What I'm talking about is perceiving detail. As long as one point of light is putting out the same amount of light as another point of light, you have no idea how big it they are comparatively if both are below one arc second in size. Two smaller points of light, each with half the brightness of some small single source, located right next to each other with less than arc second between, will look identical to the single source.

As for your power line example, a very skinny black power line against a light background would look identical to a fatter, not-quite-so-dark cable, so long as both remain below that arc-second threshold. When you capture an image of something like one of these power lines, or the planet Venus, as a pixel image, you don't need to capture sub-arc-second detail to reproduce the same level of detail your eye would gather from looking at the same scene.


True, but that's mostly ability to focus at different distances effectively. I don't think there's a whole lot of variation in absolute detail perceived once an image is in focus, although some colorblind people do have a little bit more detail perception than average (due to having more rods and fewer cones in their retinas).


Okay, I'll grant you that if you're trying to create an immersive experience 1080p isn't enough, and I suppose there will be some small market for creating immersive images at home. But I know very few people with TV screens as large as what I've got at home, and many people who sit as far away as I sit, but from much smaller screens. Are physical media, or internet movie services, ever likely to devote the enormous storage capacity/bandwidth needed to distribute something like 2160p movies, which only a very small portion of the population will have the proper set-up to be able to fully enjoy?

If the market for such movies would be similar in size to the current market for things like SACD, I doubt movie studios would be greatly motivated to release their movies in super high-def formats.

I don't think Warner announcement confirms anything other than HDM market becoming another niche format. Most of the early adopters would most likely turn neutral if they weren't already, or will plan on becoming neutral. As for the people on the sideline would stay out or if they do buy into HDM, the HDM purchase will be very limited as they're not the enthusiasts and do not normally buy movies anyway.

This morning, I took a look at my HDM library so far and about 50% (about 40 titles) consist of Warner Bros, I was surprise they were so many and how active Warner had been in 2006 and 2007. However, I was thinking what other Warner HDM titles would I want to buy.... and there were not that much... perhaps Amadeous(hopefully releases before May 2008 on HD-DVD)...but I already have... 300, Matrix Trilogy, Batman Begins, Harry Potter Series, and etc.... I don't think Warner's list for 2008 is too prolific. We'll have to see what Warner has on their release schedule that is worth a Blu-Ray player purchase for me.

All in all... with or without Warner.... The HDM optical disc format war continues.... It would be interesting to see what Toshiba has to say. As long as Toshiba, Universal, and Paramount stays committed to HD-DVD, play ball!...

Bit behind the times here, just read the news.

And I'm very happy.

Maybe these companies can now stop flogging the shit out of each other and bleeding money. Anyone got a reasonable estimate of how much this has cost both Toshiba and Sony?

Most of this is (arguably) at Microsoft's instigation too with their bribes to Dreamworks that kept the battle raging longer than it had to.

Lets face it, the writing has been on the wall for HD DVD for a while now, they had managed to keep their heads above water, but I think the big blu shark has finally mangled them.

There is no mention of payments by any news agency, only rumors on websites, but it's all just speculation based on the paramount sell out. AFAI can tell there was no payments. Just sounds like smart business to me.

I said this in the 2006 thread and many Blu-ray backers swiftly dismissed it... Just sayin.

Hypocrisy comes easier to the Blu-Rayers.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!! That's a good one.

Yeah, the consumer is foremost in the minds of these large media companies when they make strategic decisions.

With regards to the speculated payout by Microsoft to Dreamworks to go HD DVD.


Mate, if thats smart business then show me not so smart business...

You obviously fail to see beyond Sony vs. Toshiba optical disc format war. It's about HDM vs. SDM. If Warner's siding with Blu-Ray is ending the hidef optical disc format war, would such event will make the mass go out and buy a blu-ray player?. Even you still have yet to purchase a Blu-Ray player of any kind. There are too many people like you out there and thinking the optical disc format war is over because Warner will go Blu-Ray exclusive in Summer of 2008. I bet it won't end the Hidef optical format war, as long as Toshiba, Universal, and Paramount keep supporting HD-DVD. This optical hidef format war will end when the mass start buying into HDM's, but we're not there yet even with the support of PS3 gamers. If PS3's were selling like the Wii, then perhaps Blu-Ray would have a better chance.

BTW, aren't you concerned about your supporting HDM optical format user base is mostly consist of PS3 owners?... This alone has a niche potential, like the PSP format that just never took off, not too long ago. The PSP user base is over 10 million in the US and it still is a dead media format, but PS3 barely sold 3.5 million in the states. I hope this goes somewhere this time.

Well, for me, it really does not matter much, since I'm going optical disc free format on a media server. My HDM's are not going anywhere, I'm sure there will be cheap combo drives available for PC for many years to come.

So, you've given up on being a "TRUE" movie fan, apparently because your disc format of choice is looking pretty screwed. what happened to all the posturing you did with "it's about the movies, not the format"

If you ARE done, then streaming media is no better advantage, as you say you are "done", if you see it as the future for you, then you are NOT "done"

Either way you sound like you still need to posture some more. With the bad choice you made in regard to HD-DVD, why would anyone listen to you any more?

Oops.. Double post.

The Microsoft/Toshiba pay off to Paramount was not speculation. It is a fact.

It's warner that is getting speculated about, without proof, and from all quotes, and angles I've seen on the matter it looks like they did it without any payment because it was smart business.

Sounds like sour grapes to me.


Who are you kidding? You would have been dancing in the streets had Warner gone red. And instead of calling the studios snakes, you would have been defending Warner's business decision with the standard shill talking points, regardless of how much Toshiba/Microsoft paid for their loyalty.


I bought into HDM not for funky PIP or interactivity, but for high quality video and audio presentation. It's as simple as that. If I want interactivity, then I will log into the computer.


God let's hope not. I know Microsoft has shifted its shill talking points to digital downloads, but the world's IT architecture is not even remotely close to being ready for prime time.

Yah seriously. For all the posturing about how childish BR supporters were many HD-DVD folks are doing a good impression of an 8 year old that doesn't get their way.


Actually, I think 720p should be sufficient for many folks near term...which might sound a bit odd given my comments to Shetline above. Many if not most folks DO sit far enough away that the resolution difference is fairly small. Both Apple and MS have benefitted from the HD format war since it decreases the window for hard media as a form factor.

Every month sees more FTTP and FTTC deployments in the US and we're often behind other countries in terms of bandwidth deployments. WiMAX might actually see a wide scale deployment once this decade.

Average TV sizes are still fairly small due to cost but I expect that they will continue to increase in size. As they do, folks will sit closer both as a function of room size and comfort...the smaller the TV the farther you want to sit (in comparison to screen height) for some reason.

So widespread digital downloads are not out of the picture for the mid term (3-5 years)...assuming you don't count digital PPV or IPTV services as part of "digital download". Because those are already deployed.

That said, I don't believe that BR will become niche if the format war does end soon. Warner's switch signals BR's eventual victory but HD-DVD could continue to make the war linger a little. There is a window for adoption and its still open for HDM for at least another Christmas. HD-DVD needs to be dead vs undead before then.

The 2008 Christmas will have both cheaper players and HDTVs with the end of analog TVs on the horizon.

Another key factor is that BR looks a lot better out of the box over HDMI than most current DVD players that are, if they are lucky, connected via SVideo. The number of folks correctly using a upconverting DVD player is IMHO small given most homes I've been to that have largish HDTVs. I see composite connections a lot when I peek in back and just have to shake my head.

Ew!!!!

You don't have Scart in the U.S., do you?

In red I have no idea what your trying to say, but most (I think all) up-converting DVD players don't up-convert unless you use the HDMI connection port. I know mine doesn't.

He means that most people probably have a DVD player connected over a crappy connection (S-Video or composite), so an upgrade to Blu-ray might be a bigger leap than you might think.

Not if they own plasma or lcd tvs. Come on, dvd players that upconvert and come with HDMI will cost you less than $100! I got one free with my tv. Lots of stores are giving away upconverting dvd players with plasma tv purchases.


And they make regular dvds look GREAT.

It's a french originated standard. There is just no way US CE will allow it.

The digital interconnects, DVI/HDMI is still very new to US CE market.

The newer HDTV's actually do a better job upconverting than the cheaper upconverting dvd players. This is worth trying for those having issues with macro-blocking.

Looks like this thread isn't that long for this world. With many people calling the format war over, there can't be a "versus" if there's only one format. Besides, once Apple releases Macs with Blu-ray drives built in, it won't be "Future Hardware" anymore.

Exactly. For whatever reason they did not get a new DVD player when they bought their TVs and are using the same setups as before...and very very few used the component outs...and few have their DVD players in anamorphic mode.


Yah...but I dunno that they bother over any other input than component and HDMI...

A lot of folks have been waiting for the "war" to be over. You read the tech articles in mainstream press and they've all pretty much said "wait until the war is over". That certainly didn't help adoption rates and folks that might have bought a HD player of some kind when they bought their HDTV didn't. And folks aren't likely to buy a new DVD player (upconverting or otherwise) with a victor waiting in the wings.

For folks that got a free upconverting DVD player with their TV purchase, great...everyone else is watching so-so DVD movies and thinking bitstarved HD over cable or sat is as good as HD gets.

I think there's a bit of pent up demand for HDM as the format war ends. All those folks that said "WAIT!" will now say "GO!".

Universal has to be examining their business plan. Now that the experts in the media are calling the format war over it's a safe bet that HD player sales will dry up. HD disc's roughly 40% market share on a good week should shrink considerably over the course of the year to perhaps a 20% or less level. Universal has to decide whether they want to be a big fish in a drying up market or tap into the larger portion of the HDM market. Plus, with all their HD only titles, they're sitting on a potential bonanza releasing those to the expanding BD market. At least, this scenario makes sense to me but truthfully, what in this whole HDM mess has ever made sense?

One has to feel a little sorry for Paramount, well only a very, very little.

To me Warner's announce all but spells the death of combo players as who needs them.

I really hope so. Does this mean we can expect 10 to 15% HDM sales to DVD's by the year end?

How do you guys think this (Warner announcement) will affect PS3 sales? If at all?

Well... none of the studios really need to pick a HDM market in a very niche pot. The DVD market is big enough of a pond where 5% of DVD market is still greater than 100% of the HDM market.
Business as usual, I'd say, even without the HDM market altogether.