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OSX.....Get a Book! Learn!

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
Ok I've read enough blather on how OSX is harder than OS7/8/9. Folks we all new this going in. It's UNIX! Now as far as UI problems I'm in total agreement that there's much work to be done but don't expect to carry your extensive troubleshooting knowledge from the previous OS to this one. This cuts both ways..if and once you DO learn how to keep OSX running in tip top shape your skills will be much more of a valued commodity but no pain no gain folks. OSX is not made to tinker with by the average user. Of course most of us aren't average users so let's roll the sleeves up and dig in a bit before we castrate Apple. /rant
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post #2 of 29
Or maybe Apple should release a super easy to use version of Unix that's revolutionary and super fantastic wonderful before they say they have.

Troubleshooting? It's not about troubleshooting, it's about doing simple things.

[edit]

Mac OS X is a super-modern operating system that combines the power and stability of UNIX with the simplicity and elegance of the Macintosh.

That last part, to put it bluntly, is a lie.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
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post #3 of 29
Unix and simple do not belong in the same sentence. Apple's done a phenomenal job of making Unix easy to use. Quit whining, get a book, and read.


[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Or maybe Apple should release a super easy to use version of Unix that's revolutionary and super fantastic wonderful before they say they have.

Troubleshooting? It's not about troubleshooting, it's about doing simple things.

[edit]

Mac OS X is a super-modern operating system that combines the power and stability of UNIX with the simplicity and elegance of the Macintosh.

That last part, to put it bluntly, is a lie.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: groverat ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
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post #4 of 29
I haven't found OS X hard to use. I can't remember using the UNIX side to do anything other than UNIX stuff. I never had a problem with OS X that I had to use the shell to fix.

It's been rather trouble free for me. It's safe to say that it's been easier than OS 9 for me.
post #5 of 29
Wow, hekal, that post is pretty funny.

"Unix and simple do not belong in the same sentence."

and then you say

"Apple's done a phenomenal job of making Unix easy to use."

Sharing hard drives and such over networks with different user access shouldn't be tough. *click* *click* *click* it should be done.
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post #6 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>Ok I've read enough blather on how OSX is harder than OS7/8/9. Folks we all new this going in. It's UNIX! Now as far as UI problems I'm in total agreement that there's much work to be done but don't expect to carry your extensive troubleshooting knowledge from the previous OS to this one. This cuts both ways..if and once you DO learn how to keep OSX running in tip top shape your skills will be much more of a valued commodity but no pain no gain folks. OSX is not made to tinker with by the average user. Of course most of us aren't average users so let's roll the sleeves up and dig in a bit before we castrate Apple. /rant</strong><hr></blockquote>

you disgust me.

Who cares about what Apple built its reputation on Who cares why people use macs. Who cares if Apple throws all that down the drain
post #7 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>

you disgust me.

Who cares about what Apple built its reputation on Who cares why people use macs. Who cares if Apple throws all that down the drain </strong><hr></blockquote>

applenut, you take some things way too seriously. If it makes you feel any better, Apple makes the easiest to use UNIX I don't think that they're going to stop making it easier to use, but I think that hekal's right: we should take the opportunity to learn about the new system. His point is that things are different, not necessarily harder. All the whiners about how things are different aren't making any good points. If things are actually harder, as they are in the case of file sharing, that's a legit complaint. But when people complain about things like the fact that you have go to the system preferences pane to set up a new user and that's different than it used to be, it's not.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: torifile ]</p>
post #8 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by torifile:
<strong>

applenut, you take some things way too seriously. If it makes you feel any better, Apple makes the easiest to use UNIX I don't think that they're going to stop making it easier to use, but I think that hekal's right: we should take the opportunity to learn about the new system. His point is that things are different, not necessarily harder. All the whiners about how things are different aren't making any good points. If things are actually harder, as they are in the case of file sharing, that's a legit complaint. But when people complain about things like the fact that you have go to the system preferences pane to set up a new user and that's different than it used to be, it's not.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: torifile ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


you call people who want the Mac OS to be easier and better designed whiners?

damn. the horror of that.
post #9 of 29
Am I just a dullard or is this whole "X is hard" business really exaggerated? I've yet to run into any problems aside from the nips-and-tucks of an OS that needs some ironing out (ironing took about 15 years the first time BTW). Am I not taxing my system enough? Am I not not being obscure and thinking outside the box enough? I mean, yeah, the Finder has performance issues and a couple missing goodies, but is it hard to use, or just missing some conveniences? If anything, I find some of the sloppy shit companies are calling "native" software should be taken to task.

The only other possible gripe I can imagine is that it's not different enough -- not a paradigm shift or earth-shaking in its UI metaphor or engine. But then again, considering both Given Apple's marginalized status with its old engine, and given the vehement resistance to any change by its fan-base and even Windows users (who are primarily windows users because it's what they're used to), this doesn't seem like a valid direction for them to take.
post #10 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>


you call people who want the Mac OS to be easier and better designed whiners?

damn. the horror of that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Read my post again. I said that the people who were lamenting the fact that we have system preferences instead of control panels were whiners. I said that there are also some legit complaints. Change is not a bad thing, but many people don't realize it.
post #11 of 29
[quote] Am I just a dullard or is this whole "X is hard" business really exaggerated? I've yet to run into any problems aside from the nips-and-tucks of an OS that needs some ironing out (ironing took about 15 years the first time BTW). Am I not taxing my system enough? Am I not not being obscure and thinking outside the box enough? I mean, yeah, the Finder has performance issues and a couple missing goodies, but is it hard to use, or just missing some conveniences? If anything, I find some of the sloppy shit companies are calling "native" software should be taken to task.

The only other possible gripe I can imagine is that it's not different enough -- not a paradigm shift or earth-shaking in its UI metaphor or engine. But then again, considering both Given Apple's marginalized status with its old engine, and given the vehement resistance to any change by its fan-base and even Windows users (who are primarily windows users because it's what they're used to), this doesn't seem like a valid direction for them to take.
<hr></blockquote>

I couldn't have said it better myself. This is exactly how I feel when I read the posts here about how OS X is to complicated.

I share hard drives and network everything (except my USB printer ) and have no problems, even over Airport. I write some Java Applets, Database-driven websites, surf the web, play games, dream for a native version of Photoshop, etc. I find it significantly easier and more reliable than it was in OS 9 and before.

My only reasons for booting into OS 9 now are because I have a SCSI-2 burner on my G4/500 DP and because Red Faction isn't carbonized (yet...).

I am, so far, intensely pleased with the direction Apple has taken OS X. I haven't had to use the Terminal except for doing things that I could just copy/paste into it and I haven't had any significant speed/UI issues either. It just works.

Chalk up one more uneventful OS X experience... And one more lifelong customer.
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post #12 of 29
[quote]I share hard drives and network everything (except my USB printer ) and have no problems, even over Airport. I write some Java Applets, Database-driven websites.<hr></blockquote>Now ask your mother to try doing that. Sorry to drag her into it but you're not exactly Apple's typical user. There is a 100% installed user base that use anything from OS6 to OS9. Anything that is more difficult without providing any appreciable benefits is inexcusable. True multi-user is great, but user permissions, file sharing, printer sharing is really a problem right now. It maybe because of bugs to be straigtened, and thats fine. When they're fixed people will stop complaining. If they remain UI "features" then I will keep complaining.
[quote]The only other possible gripe I can imagine is that it's not different enough<hr></blockquote>That may be the main problem. We have whizzy Aqua, but no real changes to the filesystem--no journaling, no use of metadata [a step backwards from OS9], got rid of the Chooser and replaced it with "Print Center" and "Go" [only a person with a fine sense of irony could appreciate that], new snazzy dialog boxes that are broken [don't follow the Finder column UI--what do I mean--try tabbing to a new column like in the Finder--doh!] and worse than OS9.

It is serious griping, because when an OS fsks up your workflow its a bad thing. And its not cause I so stupid that I can't remember that a new folder is command-shift-N, but some the "features" Apple have implemented are in many ways truly half-assed.
[quote]If anything, I find some of the sloppy shit companies are calling "native" software should be taken to task<hr></blockquote>That is a whole other long and very vitriolic discussion thread starting with Adob and Illustrator 10.

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: cowerd ]</p>
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post #13 of 29
I find Aqua more useful than Platinium. The file heirarchy view rocks. It's so easy to navigate through folders and move documents around once you get use to the new system. Customizable toolbar in the finder. Sweet. Going between my documents and apps considerably faster. Burn button? So conventent. I won't deny there are some annoying things about the OS. I always press the red traffic light when I want to close an application. I still forget this just closes the window. Genie effect is cool, but too slow. I turned it off. Holding down ctrl to get a contextual menu, instead of just click holding is annoying, but you get used to it. There is no way to maximize a window either. The green trafic light doesn't resize properly. Apple DOES need to fix this. It will slow you down.

The thing is once you use it, Aqua is much more effiecent than Plantinum. It speeds up my work flow. How nice is in to minmize documents instead of colasping them? Far easier and faster to get them back. I hated having to use the window menu, or dragging the individual windows around until I found the one I needed. Aqua is a time saver. The dock used to bother me, but now that it's hidden on the left side of my screen, it is still useful and doesn't distract me from working. All in all it like Aqua. 128X128 icons? Beautiful! <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Keeksy ]</p>
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post #14 of 29
Thread Starter 
Great responses!

Groverat- as I said in my post. I will NOT excuse Apple for poor UI choices however I will grant them leniency when it comes to complaints over file structure, libraries etc. That IS Unix.

Applenut- Love the attitude! Disgust is not a bad feeling. You SHOULD demand that Apple improves...we ALL should. But let's also keep in mind that complexity is not always a bad thing and OSX's complexity and you mastering it just may help you get paid very well someday. I'm sure you won't be complaining too much.

Cowerd- What you say is true but in all honesty my Mother couldn't network a PC any quicker or easier so neither company has found the Holy Grail to Networking.

BuonRotto- I agree. If anything OSX is a conservative upgrade. The infrastructure is there for future improvements...let's see what Apple can do. I'm optimistic.

Hekal- Couldn't have said it better myself. Words like Easy and Simple are highly Subjective. Each person will have differing opinions.

OSX still has a ways to go but thank God it's here...we've all waited long enough but it's on us to make sure that we provide good information to Apple and potential future Apple customers. We need to Master it...even if it's more difficult than it should be. That way when the changes do happen you can clearly explain why the new "way" is so much better than the previous "way". Are you up for the challenge?
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post #15 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by cowerd:
<strong>Now ask your mother to try doing that. Sorry to drag her into it but you're not exactly Apple's typical user. There is a 100% installed user base that use anything from OS6 to OS9. Anything that is more difficult without providing any appreciable benefits is inexcusable. </strong><hr></blockquote>

My mother couldn't do all that in OS 9. Networking is "hard". That's why she uses AOheLl. X would be no trouble for her because I would never never have to walker her through extensions troubleshooting.

X is better because it doesn't **** up as much as 9 does.
post #16 of 29
Actually networking in OSX is one of the places where things work right--and I mean really well. The setup is simple and powerful. You don't have to touch any stuff [like proxies] if you don't want to, and the UI describes the interface like ethernet, airport in general terms--no more information than the user needs. Its really the area of file and printer sharing that OSX is a mess.

Complexity is sometimes a bad thing. Apple really is trying to make OSX for all users, no lameass WinXP Home, Win XP Pro etc, so the UI really needs to address a large spectrum of users and it has to be simple, clear and also powerful--it has to scale much better than it does with regards to the UI. The Windows Wizards approach is for lazy UI designers who would rather write a set of instructions than re-think the problem.

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: cowerd ]</p>
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post #17 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by Keeksy:
<strong> I won't deny there are some annoying things about the OS. I always press the red traffic light when I want to close an application. I still forget this just closes the window. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Coming from a windows background, are we? It's always been that way.
[quote]<strong> There is no way to maximize a window either. The green trafic light doesn't resize properly. Apple DOES need to fix this. It will slow you down.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Again, that's a windows-ism. The green button is a ZOOM button. Not a maximize button. The whole maximizing a window to fill the screen is really more annoying than useful. No application needs to take up an entire screen for just one window. Just some 'annoyances' that are actually the way they've always been. Even in platinum.
post #18 of 29
OMG! I haven't used OS 9 in four months and I'm already confusing it with Windows. Stop using something and you become very rusty.
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post #19 of 29
Actually OS X for me has been a life saver. I have only had a couple of issues that bug me. Anyone here printed a large document in the print center (multiple copies of it in fact) and then found that your Mac was crawling afterwards? I printed a graphics heavy document (which looked beautiful BTW on my Epson 740) and afterwards my Mac with 1.1GB of ram was swapping madly to the HDD. I visited TOP inthe terminal and found my problem. The print subsystem (i cannot remember the exact process name, there were 2 related to Printing running after the print center was closed) was taking over 900MB of RAM!!!

Needless to say I killed that process with extreme prejudice. But it was not at all obvious to those who do not know how to use the Process Viewer or TOP how to fix the problem. It did not show in the Task Menu. Logging Out and back in would have fixed it, but that is not a solution, it is a work around. Sure there are a few annoying things, but I like being up and taxing my system for 2 weeks at a time with no OS Crashes.
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post #20 of 29
lol keeksy

This has been an interesting read. I myself have had very few problems with X except for dealing with the firewall. Ftp, web, ssh and file sharing work great for me (except that appletalk never stays on after a shutdown) though I don't have a complicated set of users and groups to manage.

My current uptime is 7.5 days (bring it on 9), speed hasn't decreased since startup and the ram is still not full (though I have a GB) and no extension conflicts.

I will certainly cede that X has lots of bugs and issues, but I think generally, its direction is good (except for lack of metadata, lack of a customizable dock and a few other things) and the column view is the best (I use nothing but).

I think by 10.5, things will be much 'simpler' than they are now for all the standard things that you folk have mentioned.

X is truly a great system though it does take a willingness to get to know it. I think any new user (ie, one that doesn't know 9) wouldn't find it as bad as some may make it out to be. And the future looks good (if they bring back better metadata).

CD
post #21 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by Keeksy:
<strong>OMG! I haven't used OS 9 in four months and I'm already confusing it with Windows. Stop using something and you become very rusty. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Sorry! Didn't mean to insult you Although I've been using Macs for over two years and the zoom button still doesn't seem to work predictably. I just can't ever figure out how big the window will be.
post #22 of 29
Whar's metadata?
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post #23 of 29
OS X is great. At first I wasn't into it, but now I never want to go back to 9. I am a UNIX system Admin so im not scared to the Terminal and have rarly had to use it. OS X is a little more complicated than 9 for average users but most of the confusing stuff or not obviouse stuff like becomeing supper user, changeing permissions, configuring the fire wall, etc. are not things that an average Mac user would want or need to do anyway. The only time A friend of mine (average usr) needed some help was when he count trash some files. The permissions were set wrong. I gave him some commands and that was that.

I love OS X
post #24 of 29
The 'Shared' directory (/Users/Shared/) is pretty odd with it's permissions.. if you put files there, only you can delete them... I have to sudo to get rid of other people's uploads which can be a pain.

keeksy, metadata is the file information that is not really part of a file but which the computer uses internally (and sometimes without the user even being aware it's there). This type of data does things such as tell which type of file it is and with what program it is associated. In Windows it is the file extension (ex, the jpg in picture.jpg) You remove that from a file on a windows machine and suddenly windows doesn't know what to do with the file. In Mac OS 9 and below this was stored in Type and Creator codes stored in a file's resource fork (something unix and windows don't know how to handle) and it allows jpegs to be associated with different apps, icons to be determined by file type and allows the system to know which files a program can open (so trying to drag and drop a photoshop file onto simpletext would not work). The problem, as I mentioned, is that windows and unix don't use resource forks (which is why most PC documents always came up looking generic unless PC exhange was properly configured) and Apple has dropped resource forks (seemingly) in exhange for mandatory and hidden file extensions (which are very limited and concealed) so that unix and windows filesharing would work better.

I think this is a horrible progression because, foremost, the ability to have jpegs associated with different apps is very powerful and useful. Also the hidden file extensions can cause LOTS of confusion as shown here: <a href="http://arstechnica.com/reviews/01q4/macosx-10.1/macosx-10.1-11.html" target="_blank">http://arstechnica.com/reviews/01q4/macosx-10.1/macosx-10.1-11.html </a>

I think apple is sacrificing too much here to make their job simpler and I don't like it one bit. I intend on writing Apple on this issue and I hope others do as well.

Well, enough ranting,
CD
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post #25 of 29
I actually have had a wonderful experience with OS X.

...Okay, so maybe "wonderful" isn't the best descriptor for all of the fun I've had installing/using OS X on my slightly obsolete iMacs, but most of the problems I've experienced have been with my disks and not specifically OS X.

I have never had such a stable Mac or so few problems with the inner workings of an OS before. I'm very content with the way things are laid out (much more organized), I love Aqua as well as many of the theme replacements out there which I experiment with very easily. I also experiment with all kinds of servers and networking and other fun stuff. It is so cool being able to run a webserver with all of the newest technologies (ok, so that takes a little work), edit files on the very computer, or just shell in, do all of my work, run apps like MS Word and Adobe Photoshop, and play games, listen to music, edit movies, surf and email and IM, all in a beautiful and streamlined interface like Aqua, and of all machines on my Mac! I only go into Classic for Photoshop and it works great. Besides that, all of my favorite apps and more have been carbonized and things are just quite enjoyable for me. All of the hardware I use is supported, and well, and even hardware that shouldn't be supported on a Mac, is, with OS X. But beyond all of that, I love being able to use UNIX, have a command line interface right there that I can use and play with and experiment in. You see, I've tried installing LinuxPPC, YDL, RedHat, Mandrake, Debian, etc on both my Macs and PCs, and I've never really been successful in getting anything to work... I just hate how unrefined Linux is, but envy the power and the command line interface. I used shells all of the time but even with that experience I was unable to configure and understand any Unix variant until Mac OS X made it so extremely easy tp get the ball rolling. Now I can use it like a tool, in a true Mac-like fashion where I don't have to worry about the inner mechanics constantly or getting it to work or whatever, I can just use it. Which I do, being a bit of a web developer when I'm not busy playing The Sims or goofing around on fora such as AI.

Whew. So that's how I feel. I am in love with OS X, I have been for quite a while. Frankly, the gripes of the community here are so small and stupid, not to mention probably going to get taken care of soon enough. Look at the big picture here folks. You are overreacting.
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post #26 of 29
[quote]Originally posted by bradbower:
<strong>I actually have had a wonderful experience with OS X.

...Okay, so maybe "wonderful" isn't the best descriptor for all of the fun I've had installing/using OS X on my slightly obsolete iMacs, but most of the problems I've experienced have been with my disks and not specifically OS X.

I have never had such a stable Mac or so few problems with the inner workings of an OS before. I'm very content with the way things are laid out (much more organized), I love Aqua as well as many of the theme replacements out there which I experiment with very easily. I also experiment with all kinds of servers and networking and other fun stuff. It is so cool being able to run a webserver with all of the newest technologies (ok, so that takes a little work), edit files on the very computer, or just shell in, do all of my work, run apps like MS Word and Adobe Photoshop, and play games, listen to music, edit movies, surf and email and IM, all in a beautiful and streamlined interface like Aqua, and of all machines on my Mac! I only go into Classic for Photoshop and it works great. Besides that, all of my favorite apps and more have been carbonized and things are just quite enjoyable for me. All of the hardware I use is supported, and well, and even hardware that shouldn't be supported on a Mac, is, with OS X. But beyond all of that, I love being able to use UNIX, have a command line interface right there that I can use and play with and experiment in. You see, I've tried installing LinuxPPC, YDL, RedHat, Mandrake, Debian, etc on both my Macs and PCs, and I've never really been successful in getting anything to work... I just hate how unrefined Linux is, but envy the power and the command line interface. I used shells all of the time but even with that experience I was unable to configure and understand any Unix variant until Mac OS X made it so extremely easy tp get the ball rolling. Now I can use it like a tool, in a true Mac-like fashion where I don't have to worry about the inner mechanics constantly or getting it to work or whatever, I can just use it. Which I do, being a bit of a web developer when I'm not busy playing The Sims or goofing around on fora such as AI.

Whew. So that's how I feel. I am in love with OS X, I have been for quite a while. Frankly, the gripes of the community here are so small and stupid, not to mention probably going to get taken care of soon enough. Look at the big picture here folks. You are overreacting.</strong><hr></blockquote>

word.

You said it better than I ever could... :cool:
post #27 of 29
[quote]We have whizzy Aqua, but no real changes to the filesystem--no journaling, no use of metadata, got rid of the Chooser and replaced it with "Print Center" and "Go," new snazzy dialog boxes that are broken and worse than OS9.<hr></blockquote>

I agree with the journaling, the metadata (though I do think including file extensions is necessary these days, however much a necessary "evil"), but I never liked the Chooser idea. The weakness in how OS X handles what the Chooser used to do is how it connect to some servers -- that Go menu thing. The Go menu is fine as is, but to me the old AppleTalk portion of the Chooser belonged in the finder itself or the Network browser, not just choosing"Connect to Server." The Print Center and the general idea of having AppleTalk/network stuff available through the Finder is fine. Just the Finder should be better about browsing servers.

I also agree that wizards are a very poor/lazy way of making a good interface.
post #28 of 29
[quote]The weakness in how OS X handles what the Chooser used to do is how it connect to some servers -- that Go menu thing<hr></blockquote>
Not saying the Chooser was a great thing, but Apple made a big deal about finally killing off the Chooser, and replaced it with something worse. At least with Chooser [that evil buggy thing] everything was available in one place, now between Print Center, the "Go" menu and the Finder, any network stuff is very fragemented.

It should all be transparent and visible in the Finder. Simple as that. Oh and better Open and Save dialog boxes too.

[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: cowerd ]</p>
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post #29 of 29
[quot]The weakness in how OS X handles what the Chooser used to do is how it connect to some servers -- that Go menu thing[/quote]
Apple made a big deal about finally killing off the Chooser, and replaced it with something worse. At least with Chooser everything was available in one place, now between Print Center, the "Go" menu and the Finder, any network stuff is very fragemented.

It should all be transparent and visible in the Finder. Simple as that. Oh and better Open and Save dialog boxes too.
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