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Originally Posted by
SDW2001 
Pardon me, but
It's always this way. No solutions, just criticism. "BushCo and other
Conservatives have fucked things up so badly that there's no way out now. That's how bad it is." I see.
Yes, I'm afraid so. It is so messed up beyond recognition that God Himself would have problems resurrecting it.
Bush is a genius in his own way. kind of an
idiot savant. It's just a shame he got the job he did instead of in the Demolition industry. he would have been a very successful terrorist too I think - maximum carnage with minimum effort and no possibility of any of it being repaired.
Maybe he could have got a job at Microsoft.
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Well Seg, that sounds very nice. But I thought the problem was that we DO talk to the Saudis and DON'T demand they change?
You may have thought that but it is not the problem as I see it. I think I explained this bit quite clearly.
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Many have, many have not. Then there are those that have to deal with what's there. The United States needs the Saudis right now for oil. It's an easy thing to criticize, but without the black gooey goodness, our world collapses. My point is that if one is going to criticize our relationship with them, one needs to support policies that will help us get off the aforementioned crack pipe. Speaking of political leaders, we have a political party here that won't support ANWR drilling, GoM drilling, new refineries or nuclear power. But hey, both parties seem to be getting good at making so much Ethanol (a less efficient fuel than gasoline, btw) that the price of tortillas makes people do a double take. How's that for lack of integrity?
Well, maybe that's where we differ irreconcilably; I do not care if 'your world collapses; in fact (depending on what form it takes and the extent of what you mean by 'world') part of me, a large part, would be unable to resist the urge to crack open the Dom Perignon and go dancing in the street.
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That's inconsistent. If we won't budge, we need to back that statement up with something. We already tell them we don't like their ways, though perhaps we could do so more publicly. But the problem is they have us by the short hairs. Check this out:
http://www.thebusiness.co.uk/news-an...collapse.thtml
But you are not telling them that. In fact, I strongly supect that their ways are actually your ways. Except you have to brand yourself as 'decent' for the sheep but under the mask it's still the same.
Certainly people who the US send to Saudi to get tortured to save the US image wouldn't be so quick to draw a distinction.
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Yes, seg...I know. Everyone with whom you disagree on this issue is an "Islamophobe." I see. Tell me...who do you include in this category, and why exactly are they "having their day in the sun?"
Not at all. Please withdraw that remark. These Islamophobes exist - you are not one of them if that is your question and there aren't that many on these boards either to be honest.
But they are out there. There's quite a few in your Government.
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Actually I think some agree with the policies. But in general no. The real question is what we do about it, if anything.
Well, you are wrong if you mean anyone other than the Wahabis/Salafis/Deobandis, some Shi'i and assorted extremists.
This is really not very many people compared to the total amount of Muslims on the planet.
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Some do, yes...absolutely.
Again - see above. Another example of why you are wrong here: do you know that there is a very large feminist movement in Saudi?
It is part of a much wider and growing women's movement throughout Islam. it started when a female Muslim became an Imam - as is her right though culturally there is much opposition - and then rose to leading the prayers in Canada.
This caused a tidal wave which is basically a massive reform movement sweeping the Islamic world and references authentic traditions and the Qur'an.
Several points are relevant here:
1) Who is right (theologically)? These women or the controlling men? The women can reference the Qur'an and actions of the Prophet - the Wahabis rely on a
sharia invented in the 18th century.
2) Do these women agree with the extremists? Of course not.
3) Is it 'western' to have this aspiration? Yes of course in one sense - in another it is merely 'human'.
Though one should note that Western culture owes a very large part of its origin to Islamic Spain which defined the West. At the time it WAS the west.
4) Why is this never publicized? Why are these women not supported? Anser: because the Sauds would not like it.
At some point silence on issues becomes enablement and support. This is a trap the US often falls into.
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That depends. I think some do. I think millions do, and millions don't.
Then you are wrong.
There has never existed 'millions' of people who wish to throw away freedom. Even Bush does not believe that. he has often said that people everywhere aspire to freedom and for once, I agree with him.
It seems you do not. Curious.
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OK. That's a good thing.
But perhaps in the way you understand it or hope it will turn out to be, it is a 'very bad thing'.
I meant something quite specific and it does not include Fox News and McDonald's drive-thrus at sites where once stood 10th century mosques.
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I disagree, especially for practicing muslims. I think that the religion itself does lend itself more to the possibility of perversion by extremists and violence against non-believers. I'm not saying Christianity hasn't caused one HELL of a lot of violence in the word, because it has. In other words, for practicing muslims I think one could make the case that their beliefs/doctrine are at least somewhat inconsistent with Western values. Of course, they can do what many Christians do...ignore the parts they don't like. What I'm saying is that there seems to be fewer liberal interpretations of their holy book than we have in Christianity. Any gay mullahs out there? How about women? Christianity has all of those in various branches, and Fundies (used under license from sego) to go along with them. In the end, I still think Islam lends itself more to the Fundies' interpretation.
Ok, several points you make here - they are valid ones.
First I would say that Islam being 500 years younger than Christianity is at the stage Christianity was 500 years ago.
I actually believe that ideas and movements have 'lifespans' and can be predicted. Soon there will be an opportunity for reform - perhaps it will eb born out of the current chaos. Perhaps not.
Second, I do not accept that Islam or Christianity is more prone to extremism. In fact, I would argue that extremism stems from a limited human mindset present in certain individuals who then have to be literalists and dogmatists.
These people exist everywhere. Politics, religion, science. It is just playing with a bigger dice for their neuroses in religious matters. Of course in politics you could get a Hitler. Same thing.
Thirdly, there certainly ARE gay Mullahs but they cannot be open about it. You might argue that this is because of Islam itself but I think one could not sustain that argument.
In fact, gay sex has long been accepted throughout the Islamic world for long periods of time. Even recently Tangiers was (is) a Mecca (haha) for people like Joe Orton and other bohemians in search of hedonistic delights.
Read the 1001 Nights if you want a real shocker...
Do you know who the best-selling poet in the US is?
I shall tell you. The thirteenth century Muslim poet
Rumi
His subject matter? Well here is a taste - it is a poem written to a man, Shams, from whom he was inseparable.
And one more thing, if you think that Rumi was not a Muslim or was an apostate think again. For 700 years he has been regarded as the paragon of Sainthood (he is a Muslim saint in fact) and orthodoxy and his works are even called 'The Qur'an in Persian':
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If anyone asks you
how the perfect satisfaction
of all our sexual wanting
will look, lift your face
and say,
Like this.
When someone mentions the gracefulness
of the nightsky, climb up on the roof
and dance and say,
Like this.
If anyone wants to know what "spirit" is,
or what "Gods fragrance" means,
lean your head toward him or her.
Keep your face there close.
Like this.
When someone quotes the old poetic image
about clouds gradually uncovering the moon,
slowly loosen knot by knot the strings
of your robe.
Like this.
If anyone wonders how Jesus raised the dead,
dont try to explain the miracle.
Kiss me on the lips.
Like this. Like this.
When someone asks what it means
to "die for love," point
here.
If someone asks how tall I am, frown
and measure with your fingers the space
between the creases on your forehead.
This tall.
The soul sometimes leaves the body, the returns.
When someone doesnt believe that,
walk back into my house.
Like this.
When lovers moan,
theyre telling our story.
Like this.
I am a sky where spirits live.
Stare into this deepening blue,
while the breeze says a secret.
Like this.
When someone asks what there is to do,
light the candle in his hand.
Like this.
How did Josephs scent come to Jacob?
Huuuuu.
How did Jacobs sight return?
Huuuu.
A little wind cleans the eyes.
Like this.
When Shams comes back from Tabriz,
hell put just his head around the edge
of the door to surprise us
Like this.
One last thing, Rumi also outlined a theory of human evolution. 600 years before Darwin. He is also regarded as one of the best poets that ever lived - not just in the Islamic world.
Such a man is surely far from your view of what it means to be an orthodox Muslim and yet.....
