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Yet More News from Our Friends and Allies... - Page 3

post #81 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I would like to see some truly credible sources on Seg's claim. He seems to think that a few verses should be enough for me, just because he said so. The claim is that 'believers" includes all Christians and Jews. What he posted supported that, but something tells me that's not the whole story. How about some expert opinions? That's all I'm asking for. So far what I've gotten is a few verses and the notion that any other interpretation is just anti-Islamic propaganda. I'm not buyin' it.

Fair enough. Thank you for the clarity. I was just trying to ascertain which sources you'd like: academic or religious.

Of course we have already the primary religious source, the Qur'an, which strangely is not good enough to quote in support of Islamic doctrine but, nevertheless, I will give both of the above types. And of course they will then be rejected or ignored haha - but them's the rules!

First some more Qur'anic quotes with my commentary so you can grasp the full import. And surely if someone does not believe these Qur'anic quotes or acts against them their status as a Muslim is in question no?

Quote:
"Remember when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ." S. 3:55

Remember, 'Allah' is the word for God and is used in Arabic by any faith speaking of God. Here God is saying:

I am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection.

That is, followers of Jesus are set up those who disbelieve until the final day. It really cannot be clearer.

You might argue about what 'believe' means or 'belief in what' is meant but again:

Quote:
"And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender." S. 29:46

I repeat: We believe in what has been revealed to us (Qur'an) and to you (Bible).

I repeat the earlier Qur'anic verse also as you have ignored it and it is unequivocal:

Quote:
"Those who believe in the Qur'an, and those who follow the Jewish scriptures, and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve"

There is no doubt about this verse whatsoever. No religious scholar or cleric has argued against it and every Muslim - except extremists who choose to ignore it - accepts it.

Also, look at the marriage laws. It is illegal to marry an unbeliever:

Quote:
"Do not marry unbelieving women until they believe"

But wait..... there is another law:

Quote:
"Lawful unto you in marriage are not only women who are from the Muslims, but women from among the People of the Book"

This is where the famous 'logic' we hear so much about (but rarely se in action) comes in. I shall leave you to play with it a while.

On to other sources...from the Catholic Church:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, the official doctrine document released by the Roman Catholic church, has this to say regarding Muslims:

Quote:
"The Church's relationship with the Muslims: The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (CCC 841).

So we have two sources: the Qur'an and Catholic dogma.

But there's more:

I am a Christian and a Muslim

Quote:
Shortly after noon on Fridays, the Rev. Ann Holmes Redding ties on a black headscarf, preparing to pray with her Muslim group on First Hill. On Sunday mornings, Redding puts on the white collar of an Episcopal priest.

She does both, she says, because she's Christian and Muslim.

Redding, who until recently was director of faith formation at St. Mark's Episcopal Cathedral, has been a priest for more than 20 years. Now she's ready to tell people that, for the last 15 months, she's also been a Muslim drawn to the faith after an introduction to Islamic prayers left her profoundly moved.

Redding has been embraced by leaders at the Al-Islam Center of Seattle, the Muslim group she prays with: "Islam doesn't say if you're a Christian, you're not a Muslim," said programming director Ayesha Anderson. "Islam doesn't lay it out like that."

And that's how it is: Islam doesn't lay it out like that.

One last word to my favourite 'homo-erotic' poet - the one you ignored before, I guess you're not so into poetry - the 13th century Persian poet, Islamic jurist, and Hanafi theologian Mawlānā Jalāl-ad-Dīn Muhammad Rūmī (Persian: مولانا جلال الدین محمد رومی).

Quote:
Finally, Rumi bridges Islam and the West at this hour of mistrust, created by the psychosis of terrorism in some Islamic countries and the igno(arrogance) of some Western powers that through a sweeping generalisation equalise Islam with terrorism. One has to read Rumi to learn the true spirit of Islam:

Come, come, whoever you are, come and come again,
If you are an infidel, a fire worshipper, or a Buddhist, Come.
Our conviction is not of despair,
Come, come again, even if you broken your repent a hundred time.


Rumi lived in a time of religious war and he tried to serve as a uniting figure among the followers of all faiths. Among his pupils were Muslim, Christians, and Jews. He loves them all and he related his teaching to all religions:

What is to be done, O Muslims? For I do not recognise myself
I am neither Christian, nor a Jew, nor a fire-worshipper, nor Muslim
I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the sea;
I am not of Natures mint, nor of the circling heavens.
I am not of India, nor of China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin
I am not of Iraq, nor of Khurasan
My place is the placeless and my trace is the traceless.

Link
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #82 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Fair enough. Thank you for the clarity. I was just trying to ascertain which sources you'd like: academic or religious.

Let's stop there. I appreciate you taking the time to write all of that, but I was looking more for academic sources that substantiate the claim. You've provided more of your own analysis of the Koran, and tossed in some anecdotal evidence as well. That's really not what I'm looking for.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #83 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Let's stop there. I appreciate you taking the time to write all of that, but I was looking more for academic sources that substantiate the claim. You've provided more of your own analysis of the Koran, and tossed in some anecdotal evidence as well. That's really not what I'm looking for.

Yes...I asked you what you were looking for and you refused to answer.

This was my only way of finding out.

Jesus, this is tiring...... I'm starting to feel like a wanker for just talking to you

Actually it's not funny - scrub the smiley.

Being in an academic environment I have access to all the established scholarly books and articles and I could quite easily find numerous quotes to support my argument (which after all is merely established academic knowledge). But there's a problem: any academic wishing to support his argument would have to cite Islamic sources. The very ones I just have quoted.

I can offer you NO academic that would proffer this argument without citing the same sources because any such academic wouldn't be one for long.

It's like saying you want an example of a Scientist with accredited credentials who proves a theorem WITHOUT referencing ANY experiments or peer material or any other sources.

What you are saying essentially is: "I want to hear this ONLY from someone who cites the source material and I REFUSE to consider the source material without someone citing it and even then...."

I'm very afraid for your mental health and feel I am not qualified to deal with your issues. It might even be catching.

I think I'll stop.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #84 of 125
Lemme get this straight: Groverat accused academic sources of being an appeal to authority (and unless Seg. claimed or assumed that because they were academic they were right, that's not how that appeal generally works) and wants logical argumentation; SDW doesn't want logical argumentation; instead, he wants academic sources.

Seg, dude, I don't think you can win this one.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #85 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Maybe I post too much on this topic. I know that. I am cutting down. But this I think is something that needs bringing attention to and is shocking/disgraceful regardless of the Context.

So bear with me one last time. This needs to be discussed. It is something that simply should not happen in the 21st century and it should not be tolerated by Western nations. Period.

Subject: The Sauds.

Issue:



How is it possible that such Governments are not only 'allies' but close friends?

How is it possible that any Western Government - regardless of whether they claim to stand for 'Democracy and Freedom' - does not speak out against it and push for punitive measures?

Why????

BBC News


Maybe your ire has to do with the Saudis being an opponent of the Iranians?
post #86 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yes...I asked you what you were looking for and you refused to answer.

This was my only way of finding out.

Jesus, this is tiring...... I'm starting to feel like a wanker for just talking to you

Actually it's not funny - scrub the smiley.

Being in an academic environment I have access to all the established scholarly books and articles and I could quite easily find numerous quotes to support my argument (which after all is merely established academic knowledge). But there's a problem: any academic wishing to support his argument would have to cite Islamic sources. The very ones I just have quoted.

I can offer you NO academic that would proffer this argument without citing the same sources because any such academic wouldn't be one for long.

It's like saying you want an example of a Scientist with accredited credentials who proves a theorem WITHOUT referencing ANY experiments or peer material or any other sources.

What you are saying essentially is: "I want to hear this ONLY from someone who cites the source material and I REFUSE to consider the source material without someone citing it and even then...."

I'm very afraid for your mental health and feel I am not qualified to deal with your issues. It might even be catching.

I think I'll stop.

If you want to stop feeling like a wanker, then stop acting like one. I am not refusing to accept your argument on the grounds it cites the Koran. I am refusing to accept it because it is only yours. All I'm asking for is a few well respected expert sources that support your claim. If they use Islamic sources, fine. I don't believe what I am asking for is unreasonable here. Asking for expert opinion on a particular topic is common to say the least.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #87 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

If you want to stop feeling like a wanker, then stop acting like one. I am not refusing to accept your argument on the grounds it cites the Koran. I am refusing to accept it because it is only yours. All I'm asking for is a few well respected expert sources that support your claim. If they use Islamic sources, fine. I don't believe what I am asking for is unreasonable here. Asking for expert opinion on a particular topic is common to say the least.

So you want a source that cites the same Qur'anic verses as I do (and that must be because there is no other origin of this element of Islamic belief) but you refuse to accept me quoting them but someone else is fine.

Yes?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #88 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You see these last two posts by DMZ and Trumpt unfortunately illustrate the paucity of thinking on this issue and why it remains unsolved.

The fact is there are sides. You can side with one side or the other. They are opposing and one of them will win.

To lump the problem into 'the Middle East' is basically working on the assumption that the sides are west and east or -even - that there are no sides, just one homogenous mass.

Neither views is correct. There are two sides: one oppressing (Sauds, Taleban, Musharaf, Saddam etc) and one wanting freedom (the people who are being oppressed and killed).

The US has traditionally supported the oppressors (see list above - though it could be expanded by a factor of 10) and it continues to do so.

All the time lying about bringing 'freedom'.

All they have to do is switch sides and REALLY start supporting people in their struggle for freedom. And stop supporting and arming the oppressors.

Problem solved.

It really is that simple.

The problem is that many of the oppressed only object to the oppression because it isn't them oppressing others.

America's famous "freedom loving" Pilgrim Fathers were a case in point.

Bush's big mistake is believing his own lies when it is clearly uninformed nonsense. He has projected his own WASP values on people he has never met and who are repulsed by him and everything he stands for. Not that he really cares for anyone outside his own privileged circle.

The solution?

Stop buying oil and wasting it, to only damage the planet without satisfying the bottomless pit of material gratification.
post #89 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

So you want a source that cites the same Qur'anic verses as I do (and that must be because there is no other origin of this element of Islamic belief) but you refuse to accept me quoting them but someone else is fine.

Yes?

Basically. In fact, I'd like a few different ones. Please spare me the implied mock outrage. It's not uncommon for someone to ask for multiple, respected sources instead of taking another person's word for it.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #90 of 125
Hmm, now the Saudi justice officials are saying the woman in this rape-case had confessed to an extramarital affair with the guy she was in the car with:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7112999.stm

Just an excuse to reduce the western and local public pressure?

Don't know what to think about it, the reason the woman gave for the meeting with the guy, namely that she wanted to retrieve a photo, was also a bit fishy.

Nightcrawler
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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post #91 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

Hmm, now the Saudi justice officials are saying the woman in this rape-case had confessed to an extramarital affair with the guy she was in the car with:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7112999.stm

Just an excuse to reduce the western and local public pressure?

Don't know what to think about it, the reason the woman gave for the meeting with the guy, namely that she wanted to retrieve a photo, was also a bit fishy.

Nightcrawler

Well, if you are a Wahabi or a Salafist - and as I say, I strongly suspect that you might be - then you should have no problem what to think.

If you believe in a God that would approve of this 19 year old being flogged half to death, affair or not, then you should know EXACTLY what to think.

If you support the Saudis because they are 'upholding God's law' then ditto.

As for me, I know what to think too:

That a God who needs to see 19 year old's whipped for sitting in cars with men or deciding to sleep with 500 men a year outside of marriage is not worthy of the name of 'God' and certainly should not be worshipped.

I for one cannot believe that a being capable of creating the universe in all its beauty and wonder would actually have the mindset of a Wahabi.

And if such turns out to be the case then I will sign up for Satanism.

But there is no danger. The Saudis and their supporters are sick perverted fascist bigots. These are not characteristics of God in Islam or any other tradition.

Btw, I loved this from the link....

Quote:
The US, a major Saudi ally, declined to condemn the sentence, but did call it "astonishing".

Well, I won't decline to judge them: more sick fuckers from exactly the same mould.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #92 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post


That a God who needs to see 19 year old's whipped for sitting in cars with men or deciding to sleep with 500 men a year outside of marriage is not worthy of the name of 'God' and certainly should not be worshipped.

I for one cannot believe that a being capable of creating the universe in all its beauty and wonder would actually have the mindset of a Wahabi.

And if such turns out to be the case then I will sign up for Satanism.

That's your problem, not mine. According to the Quran, adultery is indeed punishable with whipping 100 lashes, if there were four independent witnesses to the adultery-act in itself.

You obviously think that adultery should not be punished at all, regardless of how many witnesses there were or not, but these laws have a specific good: That a) they should deter from (public) adultery, and b) prevent worse crimes, namely revenge-crimes from the betrayed persons, that often and easily can become excessive up to murder.

In this case though, there were no independent witnesses, but only a supposed confession.

Maybe they used torture to get her to confess, and this would distort truth.

If it were though a freely given confession, without any maltreatment applied, then the confession is as good as four witnesses.

Nightcrawler
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
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post #93 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

You obviously think that adultery should not be punished at all, regardless of how many witnesses there were or not,

Yep.

I'll side with the civilized world on this one.

Islam is a great religion. A beautiful religion. A civilized religion.

But I'm afraid there are people in it who are the polar opposite of these things. Just as there are people outside the religion helping them portray Islam falsely as actually consisting of these things.

When the two meet head-on I think I'll side with beauty and civilization.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #94 of 125
You probably don't even believe it should be a crime for a woman to ride in a car with someone not her husband, or that she should wear the hijab, segovius. Next thing, you're going to be saying people shouldn't have their hands cut off for theft.
post #95 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

You probably don't even believe it should be a crime for a woman to ride in a car with someone not her husband, or that she should wear the hijab, segovius. Next thing, you're going to be saying people shouldn't have their hands cut off for theft.

Yeah...I'm pretty good on banning music and art and blowing up antiquities too...

@Nightcrawler: would appreciate your take on this - 'Muhammad' teddy teacher arrested - if you (or anyone else) would care to venture an opinion.

The background:

Quote:
A British schoolteacher has been arrested in Sudan accused of insulting Islam's Prophet, after she allowed her pupils to name a teddy bear Muhammad.
Colleagues of Gillian Gibbons, 54, from Liverpool, said she made an "innocent mistake" by letting the six and seven-year-olds choose the name.

Ms Gibbons was arrested after several parents made complaints.

Wahabis again.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #96 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yeah...I'm pretty good on banning music and art and blowing up antiquities too...

@Nightcrawler: would appreciate your take on this - 'Muhammad' teddy teacher arrested - if you (or anyone else) would care to venture an opinion.

The background:



Wahabis again.

That's insanity.

But notice: she was just teaching the British National Curriculum. Which is abbreviated BNC. And that?

That looks an awful lot like BNP.

VOILA!
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #97 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

That's insanity.

But notice: she was just teaching the British National Curriculum. Which is abbreviated BNC. And that?

That looks an awful lot like BNP.

VOILA!

OMG...you may have something......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #98 of 125
I thought Muhammad was one of the most popular names among Muslims.
post #99 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

I thought Muhammad was one of the most popular names among Muslims.

Yes...and why aren't the kids in the dock eh? They were the ones that voted....I say string 'em up....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #100 of 125
Thread Starter 
Meanwhile back with the Sauds: Bush Approves Twenty-Billion Dollar Arms Sale to Saudi Arabia

Looks like they'll be able to torture a few more 'terrorists' with that hardware....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #101 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Islam is a great religion. A beautiful religion. A civilized religion.

How come you are pro-Iran and anti-Saudi wrt women's rights? Women are treated like crap in both countries (just do a google search on "treatment of women in Iran" to see how bad it is).

In fact, are there any Islamic countries where women are treated well?
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
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post #102 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

How come you are pro-Iran and anti-Saudi wrt women's rights? Women are treated like crap in both countries (just do a google search on "treatment of women in Iran" to see how bad it is).

In fact, are there any Islamic countries where women are treated well?

I would say that there are no Islamic countries full stop. I can't think of one anyway.

Having said that, I would say that of countries where there are large or majority Muslim populations then there are many where women are 'treated well'.

Syria: equal rights. No dress code.
Jordan: ditto
Turkey: the same re hijab etc and of course many women choose to wear it though there is no law but here the human rights in general is a bit dodgy men or women.

Same in Egypt & (to a lesser extent) Morocco. Both very western. ANd of course Iraq before 'freedom' was a classic example of an Arab State with great women's rights believe it or not.

Re the Iran question. It is more a question of being anti-Saudi than pro-Iran though my theological orientation does incline somewhat to the Shi'ia.

I suppose I am also 'pro' to the extent they are being lied about and prepped for slaughter. When Iraq was in this phase I was 'pro Iraq' and when it's Syria's turn I guess I'll be 'pro Syria'.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #103 of 125
Oh yeah?! Then what about teddy bears? Huh!?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7112929.stm

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #104 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Oh yeah?! Then what about teddy bears? Huh!?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7112929.stm

We've done the bears - see posts above.

Waiting for Nightcrawler to weigh in with how many witness are needed to have seen the bear being named and whether it should have the stuffing pulled out of it with a hot pair of pliers or merely have it's button nose hacked off.

Please try to keep up. I know you are ten years behind the curve in academic trends but there's really no excuse for it in an ongoing thread.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #105 of 125
Thread Starter 
I'm still on tenterhooks to hear Nightcrawler's take on BearGate.

I'm really hoping for the ostensible rationale behind this and a considered opinion....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #106 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yep.

I'll side with the civilized world on this one.

Islam is a great religion. A beautiful religion. A civilized religion.

But I'm afraid there are people in it who are the polar opposite of these things. Just as there are people outside the religion helping them portray Islam falsely as actually consisting of these things.

When the two meet head-on I think I'll side with beauty and civilization.

You are free to side with whatever you want, that is your business, but you have to acknowledge that the Quran is the most essential part of Islam, and that according to the Quran, adulterers, both men and women, and not just women, should be punished for the adultery if four independent witnesses saw the adultery-act in itself, same goes for fornication between unmarried people.

Civilisation describes merely a complex society with a social hierarchy and workdivision governed and regulated by law.

Punishing adultery or not, is not a benchmark for being civilised or not.

I think the western societies make a big mistake in not punishing adultery, as it is the source of many following crimes, if not regulated.

But there should be first a just and sound basis before adultery should become a punishable crime:

1. Men and women should be free to choose themselves who they want to marry, since forced marriages can be a legitimate reason for committing adultery.
2. It should be possible for men and women to choose the path and process of divorce, if the marriage is doing more harm than good.

Only then there is no legitimate reason for committing adultery.

Another very important aspect is the execution of the punishment, if four witnesses were confirming to have seen the adultery-act, namely that both the adultering man and woman get punished equally.

You may want to change and adapt the quranic instruction for the modern times, but on what basis? Do you think that prophet Muhammad and the people that lived at the same time with him were somehow less prone to pain, and that the 100 lashes were therefore much less felt back then than now? Or do you think that the adultery as a sin and crime was back then more grave than today?

You could of course make the case that back then there were no prisons possible, and that today the lashes could be translated into prison-time and achieve the same result, namely deterring adultery. What do you think, how many days in prison should be administered per lash, a day, a week or a month?
100 days would mean a bit more than three months, 100 weeks a bit less than two years, 100 months a bit more than 8 years in prison.

Should the punishment instead be translated into a fine to be paid? I mean, losing money can be painful, too.

But then, why wasn't that option mentioned in the Quran, even back then the people had money and possessions.

The real reason why the Quran specifically instructs a bodily and public punishment is that it should serve as a deterent not only for the adulterer him/herself but also for the public as a whole, and espescially for those parts of it that might have played with the thought of committing adultery. Neither prison-time nor fines can fulfill that aspect of the punishment, not to speak of the problem of wanting to change a divine law prescribed in the Quran.

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post #107 of 125
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Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yeah...I'm pretty good on banning music and art and blowing up antiquities too...

@Nightcrawler: would appreciate your take on this - 'Muhammad' teddy teacher arrested - if you (or anyone else) would care to venture an opinion.

It's really not that difficult, neither music, nor art, nor antiquities are described in the Quran as being haram, and so religiously there is nothing to say against them, as long as they don't promote or require the breaking of moral laws, that are punishable according to the quran.

As to naming a teddy-bear Muhammad, why should that not be possible? Muhammad is a name like any other.

I think it is an extreme overreaction by Sudan's society and authorities.

It would be slightly different if they had called the teddy-bear: "Prophet Muhammad", which could be viewed as an offence, but even then it would have to be established if there was any evil intent behind it, or if it was just an innocent game. The first would require a punishment, the latter merely a critisisement and the order not to do it again.

Sometimes I think that Sudan's, Saudi-Arabia's and to a certain extent Iran's and Pakistan's societies and authorities are like caricatures of Islam.

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post #108 of 125
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Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

Punishing adultery or not, is not a benchmark for being civilised or not.

Maybe "civilized" is not the right word - for me, most Islamic countries are "evil", in that they do stuff like this. You can be civilized and evil at the same time. We have evil in the west also, mostly in the Christian right (oppression of homosexuals, etc)

We don't stone our adulterers to death in the west, even though the bible tells us to.

It isn't a long stone throw from this to punishing other "immoral" behavior, like heresy. If you are allowed to beat adulterers, are you also in support of burning heretics?
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post #109 of 125
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Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Maybe "civilized" is not the right word - for me, most Islamic countries are "evil", in that they do stuff like this. You can be civilized and evil at the same time. We have evil in the west also, mostly in the Christian right (oppression of homosexuals, etc)

We don't stone our adulterers to death in the west, even though the bible tells us to.

It isn't a long stone throw from this to punishing other "immoral" behavior, like heresy. If you are allowed to beat adulterers, are you also in support of burning heretics?

I agree.

Religion - imo - should be evolutionary. You might get away with the odd stoning or witch-burning 1500 years ago but time moves on.

If the guardians of any religion do not move on and instead want to remain living in a world of 1500 years ago then they have no place in the modern world. Clearly.

That is not a criticism of religion as such; it is a sign that the practitioners and leaders of it cannot adapt.

Or maybe they are just bigots.
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post #110 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Maybe "civilized" is not the right word - for me, most Islamic countries are "evil", in that they do stuff like this. You can be civilized and evil at the same time. We have evil in the west also, mostly in the Christian right (oppression of homosexuals, etc)

We don't stone our adulterers to death in the west, even though the bible tells us to.

It isn't a long stone throw from this to punishing other "immoral" behavior, like heresy. If you are allowed to beat adulterers, are you also in support of burning heretics?

That's a good question.

I'm in support of what the Quran directly instructs. Apostasy and heresy are serious and major sins, but there is no instruction in the Quran for punishing it, as long as crimes are not committed, like stealing, murdering, raping, adultering, fornicating...

The Quran is often talking about apostasy and heresy, but it nowhere instructs a punishment in this life for it, instead it stated that those who would die as apostates and/or heretics would receive their punishment in the hereafter, ie. the punishment in hell.

The reasoning for that is to leave room in the life of the apostate and/or heretic to repent and return to God's path.

If these apostates and/or heretics though start to preach their unbelief in order to attract more unbelievers, then they should be fought in kind, that means the instruments used against them must be appropriate and proportional to the instruments used by the apostates and/or heretics, ie. if they preach and deliver arguments, then counterpreach and debunk their arguments... if they found mosques, then avoid praying in it and do not support them financially through charity...

If though they start to use force to coerce others into their unbelief and/or heresy, then they should be fought until they stop, even if it means killing them as a last resort.

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post #111 of 125
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Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

if they found mosques, then avoid praying in it and do not support them financially through charity..

And there you have it. The awe-inspiring Fundie mindset, red in tooth and claw and naked in its hideous majesty.

If 'they' found mosques. Do not support 'them'.

But all it really boils down to is; who is the heretic? Who is 'us' and who is 'them'?

Of course for the Fundie, such questions are simple: anyone but us is the heretic.

Others - particularly those with the unfortunate habit of introspection and non-reductionist objective consideration of other points of view - may not find it so simplistic.
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post #112 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

And there you have it. The awe-inspiring Fundie mindset, red in tooth and claw and naked in its hideous majesty.

If 'they' found mosques. Do not support 'them'.

But all it really boils down to is; who is the heretic? Who is 'us' and who is 'them'?

Of course for the Fundie, such questions are simple: anyone but us is the heretic.

Others - particularly those with the unfortunate habit of introspection and non-reductionist objective consideration of other points of view - may not find it so simplistic.

Indeed it is not easy, at the end God decides who is the heretic and who is not.

But the Quran is the closest and best bet that we have now.

If someone tells me, that he had a dream in which God told him to worship multiple other gods beside Him, then I first tell him, that it was merely a dream and not a real message, but if he persists and tries to establish a cult out of it, that is in my eyes a heretic and/or apostate.

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post #113 of 125
segovius:

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Are you familiar with the work of Romanian playwright Eugène Ionesco?

Only in passing.

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Islam is a great religion. A beautiful religion. A civilized religion.

I do not see how this could possibly make sense outside of two separate motivations: (1) a kind of "everything is peaches" polyanna attitude or (2) complete academic isolation.

I am sure nuclear weapons are beautiful things as well from a certain perspective, but surely it is worth noting that they are not something that should be spread around.

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Religion - imo - should be evolutionary.

Does this not negate religion?


midwinter:

It was an appeal to authority. Not because he quoted an academic source, but because he dismissed counter-argument by essentially saying "someone else disagrees with you" and not actually addressing the counter-argument. Academic sources can be wrong.
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post #114 of 125
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Originally Posted by groverat View Post

segovius:

Only in passing.

You should check him out....well, if you want. Artaud is good too.

Quote:
I do not see how this could possibly make sense outside of two separate motivations: (1) a kind of "everything is peaches" polyanna attitude or (2) complete academic isolation.

Well, just because you don't see it doesn't mean that much. Many people don't see many things. It does not mean those things do not exist; it may just mean someone is disinclined to look. Or perhaps they cannot see green because they are colour blind. Many possibilities.

I would tend to judge a thing by its highest manifestation rather than its lowest and by that token one could find that Islam has contributed to the highest elements of world civilization; its literature is ranked amongst the world's masterpieces, its art is among the most beautiful of human creations and of course the scientific achievements, as we know, are the foundation of Western culture.

Of course there are those who would also see these 'good' things but would remove them and deny they have anything to do with Islam which must, by definition, only contain the bad.

And there are also - of course - those who would look at those things and see them as ugly and worthless.

But that's how the world is. I believe that Chavs also view Shakespeare as 'crap'.

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I am sure nuclear weapons are beautiful things as well from a certain perspective, but surely it is worth noting that they are not something that should be spread around.

Strange thing to say.

I am not sure they are beautiful at all. Are you perhaps envisaging them going off over specific geographical locations?

I also believe that - as 'ugly' as they are - should a rogue State be threatening an innocent community with one it might be better for the threatened State to possess one.

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Does this not negate religion?

Well, depends on your view of religion I suppose. If you are a Fundie I rather think it might, But that's a good thing.

In Islam (as I have mentioned to you on the odd occasion), before the Fundies took hold there was a tradition of free thinking that led to the great Scientific discoveries that were later 'discovered' by the West and which you probably wish to deny were made by Muslim thinkers.

Strangely, evolution was one of these - and that by one of the most orthodox Muslim teachers.

But I rather think that you refer not to Darwinian evolution but to the developmental aspect of religion which you have trouble accepting because you see religion as a stasis fixed and mired in the time of its inception.

That's the difference between your view and mine. I see the Fundies as being stuck in stasis, fixed and mired in the cultural view of 1500 years ago.

They have managed to convince everyone that their view is correct. Even you, who oppose their views nominally, agree in a sense that their overview is TRUE because you accept their contention that they really represent what religion is.

Of course you are both wrong and it can easily be proved by reference to Islamic sources themselves that Islam is developmental.

I believe the Islamic end-time prophecies specifically state that there will be another Revelation that supersedes the Qur'an and which Muslims will find very difficult to accept. This is merely a continuation of the belief that most religions are from the same source and are refinements of each other.

Can't get more evolutionary than that.

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midwinter:

It was an appeal to authority. Not because he quoted an academic source, but because he dismissed counter-argument by essentially saying "someone else disagrees with you" and not actually addressing the counter-argument. Academic sources can be wrong.

Except that he didn't but let's not let that get in the way of anything...
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post #115 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Maybe "civilized" is not the right word - for me, most Islamic countries are "evil", in that they do stuff like this. You can be civilized and evil at the same time. We have evil in the west also, mostly in the Christian right (oppression of homosexuals, etc)

I forgot to adress this comment the first time around.

For me evil means some harm done deliberately against innocents.

Punishment of criminals certainly does not count as evil for me.

Deliberate injustice, yes, that would be evil, but punishing adulterers according to a law that is well known, certainly is not evil.

In this specific case though, there is maybe some injustice involved, as the confession could have been extracted under torture or some other hard pressure, and because the adulterers have already been punished through the kidnapping and rapings they became victim of, so that an additional punishment is really unnecessary.

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post #116 of 125
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Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

I forgot to adress this comment the first time around.

For me evil means some harm done deliberately against innocents.

Punishment of criminals certainly does not count as evil for me.

Deliberate injustice, yes, that would be evil, but punishing adulterers according to a law that is well known, certainly is not evil.

In this specific case though, there is maybe some injustice involved, as the confession could have been extracted under torture or some other hard pressure, and because the adulterers have already been punished through the kidnapping and rapings they became victim of, so that an additional punishment is really unnecessary.

Nightcrawler

It is very difficult to postulate evil in an Islamic sense surely. Is not God the sole reality in existence? How can two things. 'evil' and 'God' coexist? And surely God cannot contain 'evil'? So does it really exist?

I would say that laws are just that: laws. And as such are subject to change.

I would argue that evil does not exist and that this is a perfectly acceptable Islamic view.
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post #117 of 125
segovius:

Quote:
I would tend to judge a thing by its highest manifestation rather than its lowest and by that token one could find that Islam has contributed to the highest elements of world civilization; its literature is ranked amongst the world's masterpieces, its art is among the most beautiful of human creations and of course the scientific achievements, as we know, are the foundation of Western culture.

What has Islam contributed? Islam does not write literature, it does not study science, it does not paint or otherwise create art.

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Of course there are those who would also see these 'good' things but would remove them and deny they have anything to do with Islam which must, by definition, only contain the bad.

I can see the good that Muslims have done, but they are not Islam.

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I am not sure they are beautiful at all.

Perhaps you are just a bigot who is disinclined to see it.

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In Islam (as I have mentioned to you on the odd occasion), before the Fundies took hold there was a tradition of free thinking that led to the great Scientific discoveries that were later 'discovered' by the West and which you probably wish to deny were made by Muslim thinkers.

Free thinking? Did this exist within the Muslim community even in the time of Muhammad?

Quote:
But I rather think that you refer not to Darwinian evolution but to the developmental aspect of religion which you have trouble accepting because you see religion as a stasis fixed and mired in the time of its inception.

It might not be completely fixed, but there are certain beliefs in a religion that cannot be changed or ignored lest that religion lose all identity. Can Christianity evolve to a point where Christ is non-existent and there is no need for redemption and still call itself "Christianity"? Can Islam evolve to a point where Muhammad was actually a deranged lunatic and did not hear any real revelation and still call itself "Islam"?

If there is anything in a religion that is beyond the ability to change fundamentally then it does not evolve in the most fundamental sense.

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Except that he didn't but let's not let that get in the way of anything...

The man asserted that the majority of suicide-bombing attacks were not religious in nature. The evidence he offered was scant and weak (using any economic motivation as an excuse to remove religion as a motivator entirely) and you went on to falsely state that the Tamil Tigers were "atheistic" (flat-out untrue and you know it).
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post #118 of 125
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Originally Posted by groverat View Post

segovius: What has Islam contributed? Islam does not write literature, it does not study science, it does not paint or otherwise create art.

Well, there you are wrong.

If you think that the desert Arabs of the Hijaz could have gone on to found one of the world's greatest civilizations without Islam then.....well, of course you do think this....

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I can see the good that Muslims have done, but they are not Islam.

Wrong again.

Islam means 'submission' and a Muslim is a 'submitter' - to be a Muslim is to practice Islam. The two are - or should be - synonymous.

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Perhaps you are just a bigot who is disinclined to see it.

Of course. That is a possibility and I am open to it. Are you open to the possibility that you yourself may also be of that kind?

I suppose the answers to that are actually the answers to the larger question too.

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Free thinking? Did this exist within the Muslim community even in the time of Muhammad?

Yep. Fraid so.

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It might not be completely fixed, but there are certain beliefs in a religion that cannot be changed or ignored lest that religion lose all identity. Can Christianity evolve to a point where Christ is non-existent and there is no need for redemption and still call itself "Christianity"? Can Islam evolve to a point where Muhammad was actually a deranged lunatic and did not hear any real revelation and still call itself "Islam"?

It's an interesting question.

I once gave a lecture at a class at SOAS that was on this very issue: was Muhammad's Revelation a Symptom of Mental Illness.

This was in the mid-90s and fundie-ism was just taking hold. Some literalist students walked-out and complained and there was quite a bit of trouble but actually such questions are not only acceptable in an Islamic sense - it are mandatory,

For example, it is a command in Islam (hadith of Muhammad) to seek knowledge everywhere and whatever the cost. In practice this means to search relentlessly for the truth.

Islamically, in theological terms, the theory is that if a sincere person uses his reason ('aql) then if he sincerely wants to find the truth then, as reason is given by God, then by definition he must find it.

Therefore a question like 'was Muhammad mad' is not only allowed but it is mandatory for a truth-seeker as - providing they ware sincerely searching - they must by definition arrive at the truth of the matter if the seek it.

This is the basis of Islamic thought and - much as you will hate it - this is exactly the doctrine that enabled Muslims to make the discoveries even you accept they did. Without this doctrine they would not have done so. And it was unknown in the Hejaz prior to Islam.

So I would say that the issue is one of 'truth'. All religion should be a search for truth regarding certain metaphysical issues. When it ceases to be this then it ceases to be religion. Imo.

So, if you really want the truth of whether Muhammad was a madman then - as long as you are not a fundie or an Islamopobe for example but really want the truth - then you will find the truth.

Of course it may not be easy and there's always the option of blind faith in a doctrine (religious or atheistic) as an alternative for the incapable and the intellectually lazy.

Quote:
If there is anything in a religion that is beyond the ability to change fundamentally then it does not evolve in the most fundamental sense.

Well, how about you give us an example of such an absolute? How can I destroy your argument if you don't posit one?

In Islam I know of only one absolute - the shahada which is to say "There is no God but God and Muhammad is His Prophet". Accept this and one is a Muslim regardless of any other belief.

And of course, Arabic being a root language, there are many, many interpretations of the words "Prophet" and "God" so basically anyone virtually is home free.

But of course there is also the fact that Islam itself claims to be a supercession of other religions. Each Revelation is for the time it is revealed.

The only people I know who believe that a religion is carved in stone and frozen in the time it arose are the Fundies and literalists. Oh, and you.

Quote:
The man asserted that the majority of suicide-bombing attacks were not religious in nature. The evidence he offered was scant and weak (using any economic motivation as an excuse to remove religion as a motivator entirely) and you went on to falsely state that the Tamil Tigers were "atheistic" (flat-out untrue and you know it).

I think you'll find the TTs are Marxist.

If you want to construct an argument for religious Marxism I'd be more than happy to hear it.

Meanwhile I think that far better minds than either yours or mine have found the gentleman in question's findings compelling.

Which is why, if you think about it, neither you nor I are a respected Professor in that field compiling data on this issue.
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post #119 of 125
segovius:

Quote:
Well, there you are wrong.

If you think that the desert Arabs of the Hijaz could have gone on to found one of the world's greatest civilizations without Islam then.....well, of course you do think this....

Then… what? What is your argument here? What is it about Islam that makes these people able to do something they would not otherwise do?

I recognize that religion is manmade, and that any people who do something in the name of a religion do so of their own accord, because anything the religion is is what those people made it (the evolution of religion, as it were).

Quote:
Yep. Fraid so.

How, then, do you explain all the fighting and war against other religions at the time of Muhammad? It is not a matter of interpreting what Islam really says about any given action, but the actual history of religious violence both against Muslims and perpetrated by Muslims.

And again you attempt to baselessly excommunicate the "fundies", as you call them, when their claim to truth is just as valid as anyone else's with regards to whatever religion they follow.

Quote:
Therefore a question like 'was Muhammad mad' is not only allowed but it is mandatory for a truth-seeker as - providing they ware sincerely searching - they must by definition arrive at the truth of the matter if the seek it.

Can the answer be "yes, he was a madman" while still being inkeeping with the doctrine of Islam?

"Feel free to take any route you like, just be sure to go exactly where I want you to!"

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Of course it may not be easy and there's always the option of blind faith in a doctrine (religious or atheistic) as an alternative for the incapable and the intellectually lazy.

What is an atheistic doctrine that one might have "blind faith" in?

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In Islam I know of only one absolute - the shahada which is to say "There is no God but God and Muhammad is His Prophet". Accept this and one is a Muslim regardless of any other belief.

Can one be a Muslim and still deny that?

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The only people I know who believe that a religion is carved in stone and frozen in the time it arose are the Fundies and literalists. Oh, and you.

How can you mock the idea that religion is "carved in stone" while, immediately before, saying there is an absolute?

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I think you'll find the TTs are Marxist.

What does this mean? They are obviously not atheistic, since they are, for the most part, Hindu. Are all the component parts of Marxism inextricably tied together? To accept one Marxist idea, one must accept the rest? You have nothing to show that Tamil Tigers are "atheistic" in any way at all, yet you tried to label them such. Pure dishonesty.

You are lazily applying the label "Marxist" because you desperately seek to find a home for secular suicide bombing.

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Meanwhile I think that far better minds than either yours or mine have found the gentleman in question's findings compelling.

Which is why, if you think about it, neither you nor I are a respected Professor in that field compiling data on this issue.

Again, your argument is not on his substance, just his title; an appeal to authority.

The component pieces of his argument are tenuous, at best. One cannot dismiss religious motivation simply because economic/political motivations also exist.
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post #120 of 125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Then what? What is your argument here? What is it about Islam that makes these people able to do something they would not otherwise do?

My argument is not that it is Islam or even religion in general that motivates such people but more that something must serve as a unifying factor and that it was Islam in this case in this area.

Later in other regions it is other things; the British Empire, Communism, whatever.

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I recognize that religion is manmade, and that any people who do something in the name of a religion do so of their own accord, because anything the religion is is what those people made it (the evolution of religion, as it were).

I disagree on several points here. Much - if not all - institutionalized religion is 'manmade' as you say but in such a case no-one following it ever really does so 'of their own accord'. Their is in such cases, always an element of force and control.

The second point where I would demur is that although religions may well be man-made, the experience of the numinous is something else.

Quote:
How, then, do you explain all the fighting and war against other religions at the time of Muhammad? It is not a matter of interpreting what Islam really says about any given action, but the actual history of religious violence both against Muslims and perpetrated by Muslims.

Not sure what this has to do with the issue. There have always been wars and fighting. It's what humanity does and was doing aeons before the first religion arose.

Of course one can point to religious violence. If one wanted one could make a case that violence is perpetrated by people with black hair. What such a view ignores of course is that everyone else is at it too.

But I guess it is also a human proclivity to single out specific groups to isolate and blame whilst exonerating the group to which one oneself owes allegiance.

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And again you attempt to baselessly excommunicate the "fundies", as you call them, when their claim to truth is just as valid as anyone else's with regards to whatever religion they follow.

Not baselessly. It's just that you and they share an interest in promoting them as genuine so you will not look.

And no, their claim to truth is not as valid. Seems strange you would say that. Are you really trying to argue that a believer that God created Man in 7 days has as much a claim to truth as someone arguing from a basis of Scientific fact?

Seems odd......

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Can the answer be "yes, he was a madman" while still being inkeeping with the doctrine of Islam?

Of course. You really do not know much about Islam do you?

I know you are using the meme 'madman' to discredit Muhammad - perhaps because you are not capable of dismissing him by reasoned debate or maybe you just rely on such tactics across the board - but it is quite amusing because, for once, you are right!!!!

I won't bother explaining as that would of course be a sane response (ie to attempt to reason, albeit in a situation where it is pointless) and as I myself am utterly mad I'll instead be true to myself as ever and merely provide links which can be ignored and tossed away by all and sundry with all the disdain accorded to a discarded condom.

Holy Madness

Madness and Liberation

In short, Union with God is in Islam regarded as Madness.

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"Feel free to take any route you like, just be sure to go exactly where I want you to!"

Except that as you yourself say, that freedom leads to many different versions of Islam. Given that you agree that one can take any road they choose - who is it that you envisages wants this result?

Who is the 'I' in the 'just be sure to go exactly where I want you to!'? Whoever it is they are not doing a very good job are they? No-one knows who they are and there is no unanimous doctrine....no doctrine or dogma at all in fact. Odd.

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What is an atheistic doctrine that one might have "blind faith" in?

'Faith' is a belief in something that has not yet been proved one way or another. The non-existence or existence of God for example.

'Blind' is the condition of people who act in relation to this faith as if it had been proved and refuses to consider other options because of it. The condition of an atheist who is convinced they are correct when they are only possibly correct for example.

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Can one be a Muslim and still deny that?

Can one be a vegetarian and eat meat?

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How can you mock the idea that religion is "carved in stone" while, immediately before, saying there is an absolute?

I don't do mocking. I occasionally do 'labeling' or even, on a good day, 'describing'.

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What does this mean? They are obviously not atheistic, since they are, for the most part, Hindu. Are all the component parts of Marxism inextricably tied together? To accept one Marxist idea, one must accept the rest? You have nothing to show that Tamil Tigers are "atheistic" in any way at all, yet you tried to label them such. Pure dishonesty.

Hehe, you always fire the 'dishonesty; shot at a certain part of the argument. they call it a 'tell' in poker. I'd play you anytime.

Well, we;ve established that nothing means what it's supposed to mean, black can be white and and blah, blah. Let;s go with that remarkably Neocon-esque thought process; so you can have atheist HIndus then.

How do we know it is not the atheist part doing the suicide bombing?

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You are lazily applying the label "Marxist" because you desperately seek to find a home for secular suicide bombing.

Not at all. I don't necessarily agree with the Professor. You'd know this if you paid attention as I intimated as much earlier. I am just dealing with the gargantuan errors you keep serving up before I deal with him. Which I may not do anyway because it's more fun watching you struggling for ways to dismiss him which are patently obvious and should take minutes not days.

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Again, your argument is not on his substance, just his title; an appeal to authority.

Keep saying it. It won't make it any more accurate but I do so love it when you run out of other ammo!

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The component pieces of his argument are tenuous, at best. One cannot dismiss religious motivation simply because economic/political motivations also exist.

He structured an argument. Unlike you. I posted his argument in response to your claim there was no argument. You have not yet convincingly addressed it let alone disproved it, which to be honest is slightly shocking, it is not so difficult.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
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