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id Software co-founder criticizes Apple stance on iPhone games

post #1 of 71
Thread Starter 
Apple has made "horrible decisions" when it comes to third-party iPod game development and isn't very supportive of the iPhone as a gaming platform either, says id Software co-founder John Carmack, who admits butting heads with Steve Jobs over these very issues early this year.

The gaming icon, responsible for titles such as the Quake series and the upcoming Rage, is known for his long vested interest in the Mac platform. This past June, he joined Jobs on stage at the company's annual developer conference to renew his studio's commitment to the platform, announcing plans to release Rage for the Mac alongside versions for Windows and game consoles.

Carmack, in a recent interview with GameDaily, also claims to be open to bringing some of his future titles to the iPod and iPhone. However, Apple's less than ideal iPod programming tools and reluctance to allow any iPhone development until the announcement of a native development kit for February have made writing games impractical for either platform, according to the game programmer..

"The honest truth right now is that Apple's not exactly hugely supportive of [games for the iPhone]," Carmack says. "When they finally allowed games to be put on the iPod... in many ways it's one of the worst environments to develop games for. You have to work on an emulator... just all these horrible decisions."

He also holds little hope that Apple will improve its resources for developers in the future. Carmack provides more details of a heated debate he and Jobs held while at August's developer conference, noting that Jobs at the time defended his company's limitation of third-party apps to the web under the pretext of security. There have since been follow-up sessions where Apple has been briefed on what Carmack considers "mistakes" in iPod development that should be avoided with the iPhone.

Nonetheless, there aren't "any spectacular signs" that these concerns will influence Apple in the next year, he says.

Apple's seeming indifference to id Software and gaming mirrors the experience of Valve Software. The Half-Life 2 producer's co-founder, Gabe Newell, has recently recounted a cycle of neglect from Apple as the latter firm routinely agrees to listen to requests by Valve only to take no action and reportedly act as though it had never spoken before about the matter.

In spite of this pattern in Apple's approach to games as a whole, Carmack confesses that Apple has no reason to pay attention to his particular company's needs, as the current iPhone feature set is already appealing to many of Apple's customers.

"[Apple's] strategy seems to be working just fine from a business standpoint, so I'm not going to second guess them and tell them they're being fools or idiots for not focusing on this," the developer admits.
post #2 of 71
As a non-gamer I have to say "Waaah!"
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #3 of 71
It's to stop people getting hands on d kits and hacking iPod's & iPhones I guess, The public have already proven they can't be trusted with all the unlocking that's going on.
post #4 of 71
Carmack running out of subsidy money on his failing space venture?

If the man can't wait until February that's his problem.

Somehow a self-taught programmer thinks Jobs actually gives a shit about his influence one way or another.

John sure has an ego the size of the Solar System.
post #5 of 71
he's right. on both calls. Apple sucks games. Apple has no reason to change that.
Good for <del>wiki</del>OpenLeaks
<del>wiki</del>OpenLeaks for Good
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Good for <del>wiki</del>OpenLeaks
<del>wiki</del>OpenLeaks for Good
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post #6 of 71
Apple's "not supportive" because the tools aren't ready NOW? It's a brand-new platform. The tools are coming. And Apple has said when.

As for the iPod--which iPod? A game for one would not work on another. The Touch tools are coming. The wheel iPods have come in a zillion flavors (the recent ones of which do have games) but none of them are the future. No need to bemoan a lack of tools for a disappearing platform, when tools are on the way for a much better one.
post #7 of 71
I applaud this guy for speaking up, Jobs and Co. make some good products, but sometimes they have way too much wax in their ears.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #8 of 71
Yeah, it's really too bad that I won't have constant access to ultraviolent fantasies. I can't have blood, guts and gore while I'm sitting on the crapper at work. I guess the iPhone sucks in that way.

I'd like to see Carmack come out with a game where scoring is based on hands held, hugs given and verses of Kumbayah belted out!
post #9 of 71
While I understand ID's desire to spread the gaming market for themselves and others, I really don't understand why Apple hasn't tried harder to appeal to a larger base of user. I'm a recent Mac Convert, and while I love my MacBookPro, I've been really unsatisfied with the range of games.

I've only recently switched to Mac because I've become so tired of hardware failures with my past Windows Machines and the lack or true customer service. Unfortunately it seems like Mac is becoming, or maybe has been before, a company more concerned with only a few small NEW endeavors, and isn't as concerned with the follow-up.

It seems to take a very large push from disgruntled clients to really grab Mr. Job's attention. It's really hard to know where they stand, honoring their products and the people who use them, or profiteering and forgetting about where that money came from. The only reason I say this, is because one day they are bringing out the best invention since sliced bread.... then they betray their users who are honoring the spirit of innovation and trying to open new ways of using products like the iPhone by deliberately sabotaging them because it might hurt their kick back money from a Monopoly deal.

Well, I guess I'll just put it this way. It makes it hard for me to invest more of my soul into a company that seems to become more morally suspect, the more I look into it.
This I think is most recently evident, by the way Apple just eliminated their Authorized Business Agent program. Frankly, I find it truly heartless to end it in a way like that. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply, stop issuing new licenses for the ABA program and let it fade out. I can't imagine that http://www.firsttech.com/, in my home town of Minneapolis, MN is really giving Apple retail stores a run for their money. But what they have done, is raise awareness of Mac made products for the last 30 years. (by the way I'll honestly say I think first tech is affected by this decision, but I can't be sure).

Well, it's getting late around here, and I'm sure you've all read just about enough of me. HAve a great night and Happy Turkey Weekend! (Probably not for the turkey's though)

-GreenV
post #10 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

Apple's "not supportive" because the tools aren't ready NOW? It's a brand-new platform. The tools are coming. And Apple has said when.

As for the iPod--which iPod? A game for one would not work on another. The Touch tools are coming. The wheel iPods have come in a zillion flavors (the recent ones of which do have games) but none of them are the future. No need to bemoan a lack of tools for a disappearing platform, when tools are on the way for a much better one.

It has been six years since the first iPod. Each individual iPod model has sold millions to sum up to 120m total sold iPods. BAD EXCUSES ARE BAD.

If a timely API offering is too much to ask, which it isn't, they could have opened up these devices, just thrown some internal code and docs out there with the toolchain, access to the device filesystem and full factory restore, and someone would have found a way to get results with them. APIs, preliminary and frozen, can follow at the pace they become ready.

I'd certainly have welcomed an outline viewer on an iPod, among other things.

Apple doesn't care about 3rd party development on its handheld devices. Never has. Maybe in three months we'll see the first extended hand from them - or then we'll see a bunch of anemic widgets that a code signing treadmill makes inaccessible to all but the most wealthy developer.
post #11 of 71
To my understanding, Apple is trying to sell products that fit to our digital lifestyle. We have music, digital picures, the web, and movies. I do understand that gamers should stick to their gaming systems, but I do feel that gaming plays a big role in the "Digital Lifestyle." I bet that many game developers are bummed out because the iPhone is like the coolest mobile gaming (hopefuly soon to be) platform. Screw the PSP or the DS. Imagine a multitouch game library that is stored right on the device instead of carrying cartidges or discs. That, my friend, would be awesome.
post #12 of 71
Nice one - that comment certainly made my morning a lot more pleasurable!
post #13 of 71
How early do I have to get up to beat all of the Apple apologists into the room?

Apple's failure to support games on one of the most-hyped and coolest handhelds to date - especially when they're approached by a company of iD Software's talents - is staggering.

Any the general ambivalence on this board is just shocking.

If you really liked Apple, and wanted to see them achieve greater market penetration, I'd've thought this would be a match made in heaven. Possibly even taking them to a level to rival Nintendo's hand-held division.

Imagine sitting on a train home and firing up the handheld version of WoW, or multi-player Quake/Half-Life/AoE/EVE/Sims/whatever!

But no....'I'm not a gamer so I don't care' said one of the early posters. Brilliant. Well done you.

That approach was described in Aesop's fables - the dog in the manger - as pure selfishness.

Fanbois are really starting to change my opinions of the Apple community. And not in a good way.
post #14 of 71
I have the feeling Apple just doesn't "get" games.
Yes, showing off HD pictures from your last holiday is great - if you can afford regular exciting holidays.

For the masses, a good fantasy game is their holiday, and they have every right to have that "digital lifestyle" supported on the hippest device around.

Apple is being snobbish about the whole music/pictures/movies thing. As if games couldn't be art, too.
post #15 of 71
Well, I think Carmack is right when about the fact that Apple is doing fine without game or 3rd party support. But what I really hate about Apple is that it does not care about developers much. All the problems around closing KHTML code in Safari and breaking the licence, no word about Java 1.6 and no 3rd party for iPhone. It seems like Apple would like to be the only writing the native apps for their platform and everyone else to develop webapps. I really hate agorance of Apple, unfortunately they are the ones who have the best OS on the market.
Yesterday I tryied playing with Google's Android and the platform seems pretty promising. Development is peace of cake with all the 3D/media/maps/webkit/others APIs. Developers can use Java IDEs that are much more advanced that for any other language (IntelliJ IDEA is my favorite) and applications are secure because of "language level security". I think this is way to go and I believe Apple made another big mistake that will cost it a lot of potential market.
post #16 of 71
This is funny and sad. It's funny, beause Steve Jobs is a chess player. He's constantly weighing odds, even while the market is interactively trying to second-guess him. Like Gates said at the D conference, both of them have been around long enough to see the peeks and vallies of things, and they know what they want to focus on to be successful not JUST in the short-term, bt in the long term.

When you ADD features to something, you ADD expectations. That's why the mainstream hacking of theiPhone has been so disasterous for Apple on the PR front. People were adding expectations to a product and subsequently getting MAD at Apple for no supporting these new expectations! Gizmodo rated the iPhone as "wait" initially. Then, on the eve of rating it a rabid "BUY!" Apple released an update that sent Brian Lam into an AppTap deprivation induced rage. --All while Apple worked towards improving security and adding functionality to the device.

Meanwhile, Apple is working to launch games, but in a way Apple feels will benefit the large majority of its customers. Moreover, Apple is looking to release the type of games that cater to the type of customer Apple sees as the mass-market... the "casual gamer". If the iPhone gets a rep as a "hardcore shoot-em up" device, it radically changes the image of prestige and branding Jobs wants.

Recently, in his position on Disney's board of directors (and largest stockholder in the house of mouse), Jobs expressed his opinion that Disney needs to stop doing its direct-to-video sequels of its famous pictures. Like Alladin 2 or Alladin 3... or Lion King 2 1/2, etc. In his estimation, while these sell well, they are gradually eroding the brand. --And guess what? He's totally right! Churning out otherwise decent films as direct-to-video instead of "feature presentations" does indeed erode each of these brands. Its the same reason some movie stars are reticent to appear on televsion or "the small screen", unless they're willfully attempting to re-align their careers or making a fan-tittilating cameo appearance. Does anyone want to see Jerry Seinfeld on the big screen? Nope. How successful has Bill Cosby done in the theatre after the Cosby Show ended (didn't know he had any films, did you?) The jump between the mediums can be extremely taxing on the ego when it comes to public reaction.

Same thing with products. Apple never says never. EVER. They just wait for the public to speak, work inuitively up to a point... then await feedback. And work on things in quiet... like the iTunes rental system. When they release it, you'd better believe they'd really worked hard to hammer out the experience as seamless.

Games on the iPhone? Whenever Apple releases a new device, it seems they'd like to do the first applications, or at least chaperone them in. They don't want others defining that experience in a way the makes people acutely aware of the system's limitation, but emphasizes its strengths. --More than that? Apple is EXTREMELY tight-lipped. It's amusing that they're even tight lipped to a developer like id software.

The gamer crowd is an extremely demanding audience to approach. Highly diverse, territorial, critical, and generally spoiled. While I might anxiously await their rumored Nintendo announcement that may never come... I also accept that we may never see Apple push non-casual games on its multi-touch system. We may never see Apple transform the Apple TV into a game box. We may never see Apple add DVR capabilities to the Apple TV. --Rumors come and go, but the market is always speaking, and sooner or later Apple will respond, whether or not they ever dreamed they would.

The last thing Apple seems inclined to do, is to be the instigator of unreasonable, unmanageable, and unattainable expectations for its target market.

~ CB
post #17 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

Apple's "not supportive" because the tools aren't ready NOW? It's a brand-new platform. The tools are coming. And Apple has said when.

In some senses, it was released as a late stage beta. The veneer was good but the code infrastructure probably wasn't finished.

Quote:
As for the iPod--which iPod? A game for one would not work on another. The Touch tools are coming. The wheel iPods have come in a zillion flavors (the recent ones of which do have games) but none of them are the future. No need to bemoan a lack of tools for a disappearing platform, when tools are on the way for a much better one.

Other companies had managed to make devices that had a good amount backward compatibility. It's not always perfect, but 95% is better than 0%. I really don't see why the Classic and current nano couldn't play 5G games. The touch screen devices are probably a very different animal, there's probably not a good way to emulate a clickwheel.
post #18 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch1984 View Post

It's to stop people getting hands on d kits and hacking iPod's & iPhones I guess, The public have already proven they can't be trusted with all the unlocking that's going on.

Maybe if the devices are distributed with a clear disclaimer that the user is only leasing the unit, then that attitude would make sense.
post #19 of 71
The whole gaming industry is feeling the pinch now that they are developing expensive games for consoles that are not selling as well as they had hoped. Nintendo's Wii and DS are acting as spoilers to the PS3, PSP and a lesser extent the Xbox360.

Developers must look at other hardware to develop for and that obviously includes the Mac and iPods.
post #20 of 71
Soon enough Zune will start offering SDKs to developers.

Then you'll find games and apps popping-up for the platform.

The developers will market their apps on the internet and magazines, thus indirectly marketing the Zune platform as a product for more than just music.

Zune sales will top iPod sales.

Thanx to Mr. Jobs' ear wax.
post #21 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by NanoAkron View Post

Fanbois are really starting to change my opinions of the Apple community. And not in a good way.

One should never forget that fans, whatever the subject or the devotion (Mac, Microsoft, Madonna...) are not a reference in objectivity. Of course they are going to defend their idols. This, in itself, is not a revelation ! (See Paul Thurot for another example of lack of objectivity in a fanboi.) Most Mac users are not fanbois, although most Mac users love their Macs (this is what differentiate Mac users from Windows users). So, for me, your conclusion is little more than provocation !
post #22 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by suhail View Post

Soon enough Zune will start offering SDKs to developers.

Then you'll find games and apps popping-up for the platform.

The developers will market their apps on the internet and magazines, thus indirectly marketing the Zune platform as a product for more than just music.

Zune sales will top iPod sales.

Thanx to Mr. Jobs' ear wax.


Yeah, because millions of people spend $200-$300 on a device just so they can play games! :rolls eyes:
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My website: Macxpress

24" Aluminum iMac 2.4 GHz, 4GB RAM, 320 GB HDD
Unibody MacBook 2.0 GHz, 3 GB RAM, 160 GB HDD
Quicksilver PowerMac G4 867 MHz, 768 MB PC133, 80 GB HD w/17" Apple Studio LCD...
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post #23 of 71
Personally, I don't have any kind of time to play games, whether on my Mac or my iPod/iPhone, I don't have a problem with games, BUT the moment games start to interfere with the hardware or software it has to stop. People say Macs could make a great platform for games if only Apple would work with the developers, well yes and no. Yes Apple has some of the most powerful hardware available in the prebuilt arena. That hardware is great for what it is designed to do, especially in the arena of Graphic/Video working. But the moment the game developers start to try to influence what kind of hardware is built (specifically for their games) the platform can be compromised because what is good for games is NOT necessarily what is best for video editing or desktop publishing. This is an issue I have with PCs, people try to do too much with their PC and a lot of it will conflict, the number of issues I've seen Direct X cause alone is nuts.

I do think that it is ironic that for years PC users called Macs "toys" but most of my PC user friends are heavy gamers and they buy PCs to play games on.

I did build a great setup for games, for the times I might have an hour to play. but that is ALL that computer does, I do all my work on my Mac.

The same goes for iPhones/iPods, Apple is trying to preserve the experience of a system that won't get garbled up with half thought out game developer code. From lesser experienced game developers.
post #24 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by mklos View Post

Yeah, because millions of people spend $200-$300 on a device just so they can play games! :rolls eyes:

Actually, yes.

The Wii is $250, the 360 is $280-350, the PS3 is $400-500, the PSP is $170, the DS $130. (US prices) Millions and millions of all those systems have been sold, probably even the PS3, since it doubles as a BR player.

Gaming consoles have almost always been in the $200-300 range.

Apple gets some things, but when it comes to games, they don't have a clue, more or less because Jobs is too stubborn to think outside of iLife-type applications.

I think do like options, but maybe they just figure with Boot Camp, they gather people would just boot into Windows to play games, but they might be missing a good opportunity.
post #25 of 71
Quote:
but they might be missing a good opportunity.

Aint that the truth.

Come on Apple, give us the ultimate mid-tower gamer's choice.

Come on, back in the day, Commodore sold the 64 and it was King.

There's no reason we can't have a good mid-tower/cube range from intergrate to discrete to heavy dute gpu rigs from £795 - £1395.

They just need to redefine the tower. The Cube almost did it.

But a half sized Mac Pro with gpu, 2xhd space, 4 gig ish etc, quad cpu machine with sexy styling would have me all over it.

In short? I feel John 'Id' Carmack's pain. Apple could and should get with it. No I don't expect a money losing console from them. But with the iTunes store? They could storm the casual gaming market and get with it. They just need eg a mid-tower range. An iMac with a choice of GT 8800...etc.

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

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You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

Reply
post #26 of 71
My theory is Sir Steve Jobs doesn't play games so he probably thinks no one else would want to play games. I think the iPod has a long life ahead, people just love music, but the iPhone will loose out sooner or later. It's to closed for a product people want open. Business people need to have Office on their phones, iPhone doesn't have it. Geeks need to have options, iPhone doesn't have that. And teen's to 20 somethings need games and things to play with, which the iPhones doesn't have either. As for the music part of the iPhone, it's horrible, the headphones suck so listening to music on it is not as nice as listening to music on the iPod, plus the phone doesn't have allot of space so I can't hold my music library anyway.

My point, Apple is thick headed sometimes.
post #27 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by jawporta View Post

My theory is Sir Steve Jobs doesn't play games so he probably thinks no one else would want to play games. I think the iPod has a long life ahead, people just love music, but the iPhone will loose out sooner or later. It's to closed for a product people want open. Business people need to have Office on their phones, iPhone doesn't have it. Geeks need to have options, iPhone doesn't have that. And teen's to 20 somethings need games and things to play with, which the iPhones doesn't have either. As for the music part of the iPhone, it's horrible, the headphones suck so listening to music on it is not as nice as listening to music on the iPod, plus the phone doesn't have allot of space so I can't hold my music library anyway.

My point, Apple is thick headed sometimes.

1) Steve surely doesn't think "no one" plays games. He probably doesn't think the market is large enough to warrant excessive focus to that small market segment. I agree.

2) How exactly will the iPhone "loose out?" Apple is only looking for 1% of the cell market. With the size and growth of the that market I see no reason why Apple won't continue to profit.

3) Who keeps their entire library on a phone? The iPhone came out as an industry leader in cell phone storage capabilities. It's the capacity as the high-end Nano. Even Nokia is now following Apple by adding 8GB NAND to their N95.

4) The geeks have options. They have been hacking the iPhone since day one and soon their will be a proper SDK. What more do you want?

5) I agree about the headphones but they are no more less comfortable or quality than the iPod ones. I much prefer ear buds. I'm holding out for Sony earbuds for the iPhone.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #28 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenVitruvius View Post

While I understand ID's desire to spread the gaming market for themselves and others, I really don't understand why Apple hasn't tried harder to appeal to a larger base of user. I'm a recent Mac Convert, and while I love my MacBookPro, I've been really unsatisfied with the range of games.

Consoles are for gaming, computers are for creativity or work, BESIDES, if you want to play games, buy windows, install it on your macbook and stop complaining about something you CAN do but haven't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenVitruvius View Post

I've only recently switched to Mac because I've become so tired of hardware failures with my past Windows Machines and the lack or true customer service. Unfortunately it seems like Mac is becoming, or maybe has been before, a company more concerned with only a few small NEW endeavors, and isn't as concerned with the follow-up.

It seems to take a very large push from disgruntled clients to really grab Mr. Job's attention. It's really hard to know where they stand, honoring their products and the people who use them, or profiteering and forgetting about where that money came from. The only reason I say this, is because one day they are bringing out the best invention since sliced bread.... then they betray their users who are honoring the spirit of innovation and trying to open new ways of using products like the iPhone by deliberately sabotaging them because it might hurt their kick back money from a Monopoly deal.

The REASON Apple has better customer satisfaction is BECAUSE of the closed environment. You are essentially saying you switched to Apple because they know what they are doing, but that they don't know what they are doing. O_o
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenVitruvius View Post

Well, I guess I'll just put it this way. It makes it hard for me to invest more of my soul into a company that seems to become more morally suspect, the more I look into it.
This I think is most recently evident, by the way Apple just eliminated their Authorized Business Agent program. Frankly, I find it truly heartless to end it in a way like that. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply, stop issuing new licenses for the ABA program and let it fade out. I can't imagine that http://www.firsttech.com/, in my home town of Minneapolis, MN is really giving Apple retail stores a run for their money. But what they have done, is raise awareness of Mac made products for the last 30 years. (by the way I'll honestly say I think first tech is affected by this decision, but I can't be sure).

Don't invest your soul into a company, ever. Besides, you bring up the whole ABA ordeal only to confirm that you have no idea if it's had any impact, like you have an opinion about something you admit you know squat about!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenVitruvius View Post

Well, it's getting late around here, and I'm sure you've all read just about enough of me. HAve a great night and Happy Turkey Weekend! (Probably not for the turkey's though)
-GreenV

mmmmm. Turkey.
post #29 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenVitruvius View Post

I've only recently switched to Mac because I've become so tired of hardware failures with my past Windows Machines and the lack or true customer service. Unfortunately it seems like Mac is becoming, or maybe has been before, a company more concerned with only a few small NEW endeavors, and isn't as concerned with the follow-up.

First of all, it's "Apple", not Mac. Mac is a product name. Do you hear people going around saying "Hey, does Accord make a minivan? How about Corvette? Does Corvette make an SUV?"

This complaint is a load! Sure, you can say you are unhappy there is no SDK yet. But to use that conclude that Apple is doesn't listen. Apple cannot bow to the whims of everyone, no matter how much you want them to.

Hey, why can't I go download a Nintendo DS SDK and make freeware DS games and post them on the Internet? Why isn't Carmack complaining about Nintendo? Or Sony? Or where's the free XBox360 SDK?

Carmack is upset there's no public games SDK for a telephone, yet he has no problem that there are no public SDKs for actual gaming machines? I find that puzzling.
post #30 of 71
Steve Jobs doesn't play games. It is as simple as that. If he did Apple would have great gaming support.
post #31 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

the moment games start to interfere with the hardware or software it has to stop.

But the moment the game developers start to try to influence what kind of hardware is built (specifically for their games) the platform can be compromised because what is good for games is NOT necessarily what is best for video editing or desktop publishing.

Games would encourage better graphics driver development and better hardware. This would only benefit other graphics applications as they use the same features. It seems the iMac freeze was caused by bad graphics drivers so whatever benefit avoiding gaming is supposed to offer, it clearly isn't working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Yes Apple has some of the most powerful hardware available in the prebuilt arena. That hardware is great for what it is designed to do, especially in the arena of Graphic/Video working.

Apple's hardware is not great for what it's designed to do. It's designed to do the same job as a Windows PC but Windows PCs use faster and cheaper desktop parts. One of the biggest additions to Final Cut Studio was Motion, which is completely hardware accelerated. For that kind of software, you need the highest end video card you can buy with as much video memory as possible. Since the rendering is done on the GPU, you can get away with a slower CPU but Apple don't build a desktop machine with a dual core CPU and a high end GPU.

The Mac Pro is a good machine but it's way too expensive. It's not just about being able to afford it either, people would be stupid to buy a machine with a low-mid end graphics card for £1700 when you can get a PC with a high end GPU for half the price if they needed good hardware graphics performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

This is an issue I have with PCs, people try to do too much with their PC and a lot of it will conflict, the number of issues I've seen Direct X cause alone is nuts.

That doesn't mean the same things would happen with OpenGL and OS X.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

I do think that it is ironic that for years PC users called Macs "toys" but most of my PC user friends are heavy gamers and they buy PCs to play games on.

When they say toys they mean in the derogatory sense when an inferior product is compared to a superior one not in the sense that it plays games. Like I would say that a Nintendo DS is a toy compared to a PSP because it's about 1/5th the speed or something. They both play games and are both toys essentially.

Anything short of a £1700 workstation from Apple will be considered a toy relative to what is on offer in the PC industry and since that workstation is out of the price range of most people, Apple generally sell 'toys'. That will change after they compete on a price/performance ratio with PCs but Apple's products have been so poor performance-wise for so long, it will take a while to shift that reputation. Now that they have intel CPUs, things are starting to change but then Apple go and leave their highest end machines with graphics cards from 3 or more years ago.

If you pay top dollar for hardware, you expect to get the best hardware and it's by dismissing gaming that Apple feels they have a right to push out pathetic GPU options to even their highest paying customers.
post #32 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleverboy View Post

This is funny and sad. It's funny, beause Steve Jobs is a chess player. He's constantly weighing odds, even while the market is interactively trying to second-guess him. Like Gates said at the D conference, both of them have been around long enough to see the peeks and vallies of things, and they know what they want to focus on to be successful not JUST in the short-term, bt in the long term.

...snip....

The gamer crowd is an extremely demanding audience to approach. Highly diverse, territorial, critical, and generally spoiled. While I might anxiously await their rumored Nintendo announcement that may never come... I also accept that we may never see Apple push non-casual games on its multi-touch system. We may never see Apple transform the Apple TV into a game box. We may never see Apple add DVR capabilities to the Apple TV. --Rumors come and go, but the market is always speaking, and sooner or later Apple will respond, whether or not they ever dreamed they would.

The last thing Apple seems inclined to do, is to be the instigator of unreasonable, unmanageable, and unattainable expectations for its target market.

~ CB

One of the best, reasoned, comments on this topic. Its a shame that no one on the boards seems to have bothered to read it.
post #33 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

Personally, I don't have any kind of time to play games, whether on my Mac or my iPod/iPhone, I don't have a problem with games, BUT the moment games start to interfere with the hardware or software it has to stop. People say Macs could make a great platform for games if only Apple would work with the developers, well yes and no. Yes Apple has some of the most powerful hardware available in the prebuilt arena. That hardware is great for what it is designed to do, especially in the arena of Graphic/Video working. But the moment the game developers start to try to influence what kind of hardware is built (specifically for their games) the platform can be compromised because what is good for games is NOT necessarily what is best for video editing or desktop publishing.

I don't think it's necessarily about the hardware, except maybe to support more powerful consumer video chips or offer a single-CPU-socket tower.

I tried to make a simulation and external device control system, it's not a game, but I wanted many similar system capabilities, plus other things that I did manage to get working in short order. The problem is that Apple's device support for developers is pretty poor, particularly when it comes to joysticks. The code required to use it is needlessly contrived. I have a book that pointed out how easy it was write code to grab a joystick in OS 9, and showed how complicated it was to do the same reliably in OS X, and it's just baffling. And the ease of use on the user's side was more consistent too, since the OS handled a lot more that the game didn't have to, you don't get different games not being able to use the same joystick properly, or improper compensation for the button order and so on.

Quote:
This is an issue I have with PCs, people try to do too much with their PC and a lot of it will conflict, the number of issues I've seen Direct X cause alone is nuts.

I do think that it is ironic that for years PC users called Macs "toys" but most of my PC user friends are heavy gamers and they buy PCs to play games on.

I did build a great setup for games, for the times I might have an hour to play. but that is ALL that computer does, I do all my work on my Mac.

The same goes for iPhones/iPods, Apple is trying to preserve the experience of a system that won't get garbled up with half thought out game developer code. From lesser experienced game developers.

I still do most of my productive stuff using Windows, though I am gradually shifting things to Mac when I can. I really don't play games. I don't think for a minute that games would corrupt OS X or the hardware. I think most of the maintenance problems with PC gaming is unique to the peculiarities of poor execution in various parts of the Windows platform.
post #34 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

As a non-gamer I have to say "Waaah!"

I'm not a gamer either but if the future about carrying around a phone that has your life on it then I'd want that platform to be as open as possible. I don't want one company dictating what I can and cannot put on my portable computer (iPhone or iPod Touch). Hence, I'll sit on the sidelines until 3rd party apps are rolling in on their OSX device platforms.

Wither AppleTV?
post #35 of 71
Despite being the last bastion of OpenGL commercial big-title gaming, iD software as per Carmack is slowly slipping into irrelevance. Just consider the biggest PC and console titles of this holiday season: NeedForSpeed:ProStreet, BioShock, Crysis, MassEffect, UnrealTournament3, FearXP2[Perseus], Command&Conquer3. Pretty much all DirectX PC, PS3/Xbox360, Cider-on-Mac, etc.

iD having to make iPhone games shows their desperation. There's always Java on Nokia and stuff like that. Why aren't they big in that market???
post #36 of 71
Bootcamp WinXP2Pro or Vista(heavenforbid) on MacBookPro or iMac24", and Apple has virtually all the PC gaming *in the world* covered. Simple as that. Not happy, can build your own overclocked PC beast [fun] or get a Wii. Please don't get XBox360, touched by the chip-of-death, namely, any consumer CPU influenced by IBM (Xbox360, g5, Cell -- wherefore art PS3 super-popularity?)
post #37 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

I don't have a problem with games, BUT the moment games start to interfere with the hardware or software it has to stop.

Games commoditized all the fancy 3D video hardware that Apple uses for UI effects. If anything they've "interfered" only in a positive way.
post #38 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Bootcamp WinXP2Pro or Vista(heavenforbid) on MacBookPro or iMac24", and Apple has virtually all the PC gaming *in the world* covered. Simple as that. Not happy, can build your own overclocked PC beast [fun] or get a Wii. Please don't get XBox360, touched by the chip-of-death, namely, any consumer CPU influenced by IBM (Xbox360, g5, Cell -- wherefore art PS3 super-popularity?)

Er, the Wii has an IBM PowerPC based chip in it also so by your reckoning, don't get that either. These days it's only Macs and PCs that don't.
post #39 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by macFanDave View Post

Yeah, it's really too bad that I won't have constant access to ultraviolent fantasies. I can't have blood, guts and gore while I'm sitting on the crapper at work. I guess the iPhone sucks in that way.

I'd like to see Carmack come out with a game where scoring is based on hands held, hugs given and verses of Kumbayah belted out!

Thats gotta be up there for post of the year!
I don't see how an anti M$ stance can be seen as a bad thing on an Apple forum I really can't!

nagromme - According to Amazon: "SpongBob Typing Tutor" is outselling Windows
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I don't see how an anti M$ stance can be seen as a bad thing on an Apple forum I really can't!

nagromme - According to Amazon: "SpongBob Typing Tutor" is outselling Windows
Reply
post #40 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Er, the Wii has an IBM PowerPC based chip in it also so by your reckoning, don't get that either. These days it's only Macs and PCs that don't.

As much as I dislike the lame popularity contests, XBox360 has done pretty darn well, despite nvidia2008's protestations otherwise.
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