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OsX and Java..When?

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
Any word on when we can expect full Java support for OsX. I rely on it pretty much and I'm forced to use IE for it's minimal support for Java. Can't use any other browser. Is it an Apple problem or does the problem lay with the Developers at Netscape, iCab etc?
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post #2 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by kelib:
<strong>Any word on when we can expect full Java support for OsX. I rely on it pretty much and I'm forced to use IE for it's minimal support for Java. Can't use any other browser. Is it an Apple problem or does the problem lay with the Developers at Netscape, iCab etc?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I can't even find my Java installation anymore, so I'm not much help, but from what I remember, OS X supports Java 2 with Hotspot. In OS X beta I was limited to the command line for anything beyond 1.1.8. So, I would guess that it has to do with the browser implementation.
post #3 of 25
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kelib:
[QB]Any word on when we can expect full Java support for OsX. I rely on it pretty much and I'm forced to use IE for it's minimal support for Java. Can't use any other browser. Is it an Apple problem or doe

Just type the url of the Java apple into the "Applet Launcher" application. It's a browser Issue.
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post #4 of 25
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Sinewave:
<strong>

Just type the url of the Java apple into the "Applet Launcher" application. It's a browser Issue.</strong><hr></blockquote>

How do I do just that? Any help appriciated
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post #5 of 25
Applet Launcher is found in /applications/utilities

Mac OS X really has one of the cleanest and fastest implementation of Java, and Java exists as an API in Mac OS X along with Carbon and Cocoa.
post #6 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by catalyst:
<strong>Mac OS X really has one of the cleanest and fastest implementation of Java</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> I really hope you're comparing to Mac OS 9 here. Mac OS X's java is dismally slow compared to Windows and other *nixes.

I recall Java benchmarks (can't remember what they're called) not long ago and OSX was next to last followed only by OS9.

post #7 of 25
Java is built into OSX if you havent read any thing on OSX
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post #8 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by starfleetX:
<strong>
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> I really hope you're comparing to Mac OS 9 here. Mac OS X's java is dismally slow compared to Windows and other *nixes.

I recall Java benchmarks (can't remember what they're called) not long ago and OSX was next to last followed only by OS9.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

OS X Java definitely outperforms OS 9's, and I am *quite* certain that the Windows implementation of Java isn't as good as Mac OS X's. Also, I guess Mac OS X's Java VM is almost like the other *nix's, and perhaps it just needs more time and optimisation (just like the rest of OS X )
post #9 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by catalyst:
<strong>

OS X Java definitely outperforms OS 9's, and I am *quite* certain that the Windows implementation of Java isn't as good as Mac OS X's. Also, I guess Mac OS X's Java VM is almost like the other *nix's, and perhaps it just needs more time and optimisation (just like the rest of OS X )</strong><hr></blockquote>

Optimization? That's the same line they fed us when Apple put out PowerPC's. I got smoked on that deal when I bought a 6100/60, trusting Apple's word that the machine would fly as soon as native PPC system and apps were available. They lied.
post #10 of 25
<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> Gee, I can't seem to find any recent java benchmarks. There's plenty from a couple years ago...

Anyway, I did find one recent test on a Athalon 1400 MHz running Windows 2000 Professional: <a href="http://www.excelsior-usa.com/jetbenchstd.html" target="_blank">Excelsior JET Standard Microbenchmarks</a>

Well, I was indeed rather disappointed when I ran CaffeineMark 3 on my Mac (dual 500 G4, 10.1.2, 832 MB RAM). Here are the results:

Now, these are obviously not impressive.

Does anyone reading this thread have a dual 800 to test on? catalyst, do you have any evidence showing better performance on Mac OS X? A score of 3,584 doesn't compare well with a score of 24,355 even if it's a bit of a faster machine.

[edit] I misread the results before. D'oh!

[ 01-06-2002: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
post #11 of 25
BTW, if you want to see a simple example of how ugly OS X's Java can look, just fire up Applet Launcher and try some of the examples. The Clock one is butt-uuuuugly! Some of them won't load; some of them even crash the Applet Launcher!!



[ 01-06-2002: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
post #12 of 25
I don't have any benchmarks so I guess I can't prove anything. Anyhow, the benchmark you provided is pretty damning evidence, so obviously Java still has a long way to go on Mac OS X
post #13 of 25
How much more evidance do we need before people realize that OS X is a flop? There was a benchmark showing stuff running faster in Classic than in OS X.

WTF is Apple doing?
post #14 of 25
Dunno how well I trust that benchmark. Ran it on my TiBook and got 2813/2888. Ran it on my dual 800 Mhz P3 running Linux and Mozilla and got 6127/6066. Then I ran it on the same machine with Netscape 4.7 and got 809/818, slower by a factor of 8.

Also, looking at their results, it say a score of ~10000 on 4-500 mhz p2's and p3's. My linux machine should blow those away.

dave

-ps Hey Scott. Enough with the OSX whining. We know you don't like it. We know you have issues with Rage Pro drivers. You don't have to keep beating a dead horse on every Mac msg board. Go back to OS 9 or, dude, get a Dell.
post #15 of 25
I know you wont be able to read this because you have your head in the sand but ....

BTW Netscape uses it's own JVM (last I heard) which is why it sucks at Java.

How many different ways does OS X have to fail before people realize that the OS is having real trouble and changes are coming slow or not at all? I guess Apple will have to drop Java as a "core technology".
post #16 of 25
I can't get IE to do Java at all. I think it's a Microsoft problem, but I'm not sure. Plus, Java isn't available on Netscape for PPC Mac. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
post #17 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by Sinewave:
<strong>
Just type the url of the Java apple into the "Applet Launcher" application. It's a browser Issue.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Thanks. Is there anyway of making it use proxies ?

I notice there are Pref's under the Applet Launcher menu and also under the Edit menu. You'd think Apple would read their on interface guidelines :-)

Michael
post #18 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by starfleetX:
<strong>Does anyone reading this thread have a dual 800 to test on?</strong><hr></blockquote>

12418 in MacOS 9
5089 in MacOS X
post #19 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>I know you wont be able to read this because you have your head in the sand but ....

BTW Netscape uses it's own JVM (last I heard) which is why it sucks at Java.

How many different ways does OS X have to fail before people realize that the OS is having real trouble and changes are coming slow or not at all? I guess Apple will have to drop Java as a "core technology".</strong><hr></blockquote>

Is it your mission in life to get people to see that your the only one entitled to an opinion with regards to Mac OS X?

Go away, you're annoying!
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post #20 of 25
See I was right.

Does anyone have an idea of why Java is so slow on OS X? It would seem to me that could move some good UNIX code over and get a good starting point. Also hire/barrow some Sun guys to get it running. Considering Apple is Sun's biggest supporter on popular desktop system there would be some interest there.

Yet Java blows? Why?
post #21 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>See I was right.

Does anyone have an idea of why Java is so slow on OS X? It would seem to me that could move some good UNIX code over and get a good starting point. Also hire/barrow some Sun guys to get it running. Considering Apple is Sun's biggest supporter on popular desktop system there would be some interest there.

Yet Java blows? Why?</strong><hr></blockquote>

AFAIK it is Suns JVM they are using.

But does a Java 2 engine run old Java code at the same speed as an older Java engine?
JLL

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JLL

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post #22 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by JLL:
<strong>

AFAIK it is Suns JVM they are using.</strong><hr></blockquote>

They're using Sun's code as a starting point, but more than a little of the end product is Apple's.

I've heard rumblings and murmurs of discontent from Apple employees (in public forums, not any of my nonexistent insider contacts) that they shipped a "beta quality" Java runtime. They seem to believe that they'll have a wonderful thing when it's finished, though. 10.2, maybe? We can hope...
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post #23 of 25
Bah. It's always the next one that will be the one.
post #24 of 25
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all the response guys. I personally don't give a damn where the problem is, but I'm concerned that I can't get my live Soccer scores nor am I able to chat in Java in Netscape, iCab Opera or any other browser except IE. And IE is real bad. In the Java chat room I can' cut and paste for example. I tried to use the Applet Launcher for Netscape but it didn't work. I'm always prompted with message telling me a plug in is missing. When I choose to get it I get the message that no plug in is available.

For the last 15 or so years I've been working as an network admin. on huge MVS/Jes2 machines from an NT terminal. I've stuck with the Mac at home (even though I could get any PC I like at half price from my employer) because it's been so easy to use. Any problem (if any at all) I could fix on my own. After OsX arrived it's just a different story. I'm stuck with all sorts of problems I can't solve on my own. I know, when it comes to personal computers I'm Mr. Joe 6pack but what's wrong with that. I expect things to work.

I'm not giving up on OsX though. I think it has a great potential in terms of 'ease of use' and I think it looks OK, though it doesn't look any better than Os 9.2. But right now it's just far from complete. And its way to slow on my G3 400 /256meg. I'm back to Os9 but will give X another go when X 10.2 is here.

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: kelib ]</p>
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post #25 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by catalyst:
<strong>

OS X Java definitely outperforms OS 9's, and I am *quite* certain that the Windows implementation of Java isn't as good as Mac OS X's. Also, I guess Mac OS X's Java VM is almost like the other *nix's, and perhaps it just needs more time and optimisation (just like the rest of OS X )</strong><hr></blockquote>

Here's what I understand. OSX uses the hotspot JVM (or a variant thereof), whereas in the windoze/linux side you can either use hotspot or the IBM jvm. For 95% of all cases the IBM jvm smokes the hotspot (my code benchmarks show anywhere between factors of 2 and 6). As such, the OSX implementation is "slow" because of the jvm, not the OS.

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