or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › The Wii: does it do it for you? How much longer until it's passed by?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The Wii: does it do it for you? How much longer until it's passed by? - Page 4

post #121 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guartho View Post

You drive a Hummer and buy lots of products with 'X-TREME' in the name, don't you?

Haha. I agree with Marvin though. Even though rated E games may be "intense", they do not have the same intensity as rated M games. Bowling is not the same as, what Marvin said, blowing peoples heads off with a sniper rifle.
MacBook Pro
2.2GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB
120GB Serial ATA Drive@5400rpm
SuperDrive 8x
15" Glossy Widescreen Display

with a wireless Apple keyboard

and

iPod Touch
8GB
Reply
MacBook Pro
2.2GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB
120GB Serial ATA Drive@5400rpm
SuperDrive 8x
15" Glossy Widescreen Display

with a wireless Apple keyboard

and

iPod Touch
8GB
Reply
post #122 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-Myster View Post

Haha. I agree with Marvin though. Even though rated E games may be "intense", they do not have the same intensity as rated M games. Bowling is not the same as, what Marvin said, blowing peoples heads off with a sniper rifle.

Presumably you are talking about GTA since most other rated M games with sniper rifles don't depict people's heads being blown off. In GTA this activity is typically not intense in any way, especially considering it's almost always done in the process of lazy, casual gaming, in scenarios where you can't even lose and, at worst, might get you a couple stars. The only time it really results in anything approaching intense is if you get enough stars to have truckloads of authorities coming after you, in which case the intensity comes from the fast action and high level of activity, not the in-game act of sniping.

Multiplayer Mario Kart (ESRB rating: E) is certainly more "intense" than sniping people in a GTA series game. In fact, multiplayer Mario Kart is just as "intense" and results in just as much exciting competition as any other action-heavy multiplayer game like Halo or COD.
post #123 of 165
MarioKart Double-Dash is responsible for my clean-mouthed wife uttering the phrase "Mother-fucking figure skating mother-fuckers!"
post #124 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

That's the most hilariously wrong thing I've ever heard

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

Explain this, because it is beyond me how this could be offered as a statement worth considering.

Violence requires a degree of emotional maturity to deal with it. Years ago, my mum would cringe and walk out the room hearing Lara Croft fall to her death and hear her bones breaking or choking while drowning. I call that emotionally weak.

Immaturity is merely a lack of development. Once you've played enough games designed for immature gamers, you grow out of them because they don't satisfy your level of gaming needs.

In the same way, films don't affect you like they did when you were a kid UNLESS you haven't developed beyond that level. That's not to say people have to be embarrassed about it and somehow justify what they do by pretending it's meant for adults. Some people just don't feel the need to move on.

If an increasingly large group of people decide they want to be a part of franchises aimed at kids, does that change the target demographic? I personally don't think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

OK, so you have no clue what emotionally weak means

Define what you think it means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

Well, I'm pretty sure my sisters, with there respective PhDs in biochemistry and molecular biology, would disagree with you.

You're talking about intellect not emotions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

As someone with a degree in epidemiology, I know that I disagree with you.

Now you're talking about immunity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

Because it is not a popular way to attack the XBox, that's why.

Yeeeeah and why isn't it a popular way to attack it?

I would suggest because it cannot be attacked in that way where the Wii can be because it is primarily aimed at children. If it wasn't then people wouldn't attack it like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

So a sidescrolling jumper is the same as running around in 3D and shooting things with water cannons and flying on water jets?

I won't really argue, but Wolf3D has more similar mechanics to Crysis than Mario Brothers NES has to Super Mario Sunshine.

Well to me personally, the Mario games felt the same. Like I say, these things can't be defined universally. It depends on what level of gameplay experience you are at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

Yes, I have a definition that is technical and correct and yours is unnecessarily selective with the sole purpose of backing your argument.

Not selective, it's just different for different people and the definition of intense is based on your own experience. If you were really small in a country of really small people and someone of normal height came to visit, you'd say he was tall. But the tall person thinks he's average size and thinks you guys are small because he has a different benchmark for tall.

In the same way, I think most Nintendo games are weaker than PS3/XBox 360 games because I have a different benchmark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

When did I ever argue that some franchises were not designed solely for children? Barbie Adventures are not in any way meant for people older than 10. Zelda and Mario games are designed for a much larger age range.

How do you know that Zelda and Mario are designed for a large age range? I'm pretty sure sure Barbie doesn't have an upper age limit either. All they put on the box is something like 3+. The plus isn't there to include everybody in the same way a game for 'everyone' isn't meant for everyone. It just means the content is weak enough that it won't offend anyone over the age of 3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

Who are "hardcore gamers"?

Hardcore gamers are gamers who have been playing games for years and are experienced with complex control systems and game mechanics. These people cannot be content with a system that is too simplistic like run, jump, collect because it's boring.

Look at the gameplay in Mario Galaxy. You run around a planet, jumping and collecting and then you hop to another planet, run around and do the same thing. There's no complexity in there and there really can't be if it's targeted at everyone.

You can't expect a 6 year old kid to be able to maneuver an infantry unit or control a character with enough stealth to avoid snipers and still take on enemies in close combat. I see my young relatives play games and it's completely different to how I play games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

What is this amount? The Wii cannot stay on shelves long enough to test this hypothesis of yours.

All that says is people prefer cheap to intense.

Also, a lot of parents will get a Wii for their kids and that's probably the biggest market for games.

In fact, I'd say the Wii has split the market further than the previous generation consoles by simply not trying to compete on the same terms the PS3 and XBox are. They are themselves admitting that they're not after the same market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

What are the characteristics of an "in-depth gameplay experience"?

One that isn't full of repetitive gameplay mechanics. So for example, hopping from one small planet to another is not in-depth gameplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

Far Cry - Wii
Resident Evil - Wii
Call of Duty - Wii
Manhunt 2 - Wii

There are exceptions of course - I can't think of many stereotypes that are based on absolutes. But having a handful of these games does not redefine the console.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

So you're a grown man and you think playing a Sony/Microsoft-brand video game is objectively cooler than playing a Nintendo-brand video game?

I AM A VERY IMPRESSIVE MAN! I HAVE SEX WITH MANY WOMEN!

Bingo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by success

It worked for me.

For Wii owners, even the smallest gestures can be quite overwhelming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guarth

You drive a Hummer and buy lots of products with 'X-TREME' in the name, don't you?

I drive a Fiat Punto X-treme. I can do 0-60 in a couple of minutes. But those minutes are pretty extreme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by giant

Multiplayer Mario Cart (ESRB rating: E) is certainly more "intense" than sniping people in a GTA series game. In fact, multiplayer Mario Cart is just as "intense" and results in just as much exciting competition as any other action-heavy multiplayer game like Halo or COD.

Compare Mario Kart to Burnout and the difference is pretty staggering.

Also, it wasn't really GTA I meant. When I say blowing someone's head off with a rifle, I meant just sniping them in the head. There are games where you have to duck under cover and aim at people's heads.

One example of a pretty intense FPS game for the PSP involves enemies with electro-plated armor. You have to electrocute them first to disable their armor and then sniper them while taking fire from other enemies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guartho

MarioKart Double-Dash is responsible for my clean-mouthed wife uttering the phrase "Mother-fucking figure skating mother-fuckers!"

It's null and void because there was figure skating involved. This is what I meant by a varying level of intensity. If figure skaters were too much to handle before swearing then that's the sign of an inexperienced gamer.
post #125 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

You're talking about intellect not emotions.

No, I'm talking about the fact that-obviously unlike you-they understand biology and genetics

Quote:
Now you're talking about immunity.

Please, just stop. You're seriously embarrassing yourself. Epidemiology is not immunology.
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
Reply
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
Reply
post #126 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

New to the internet are you? Also it only becomes an argument when people reduce it to name-calling, so please don't do that, just allow the grown ups to discuss the subject rationally.

Violence requires maturity.

OK, it's more than obvious by now you're either a troll, or an attention whore, or both and not worth my time; but I'll go ahead and do this anyway, mainly because I'm bored.



The first problem is, you're using faulty and circular logic. For example, here is some of your logic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Hardcore gamers are gamers who have been playing games for years and are experienced with complex control systems and game mechanics. These people cannot be content with a system that is too simplistic like run, jump, collect because it's boring.

Look at the gameplay in Mario Galaxy. You run around a planet, jumping and collecting and then you hop to another planet, run around and do the same thing. There's no complexity in there and there really can't be if it's targeted at everyone.

Now, this applies just as easily to the games you profess to be 'mature', 'intense' and I hazard to guess, 'manly':

Hardcore gamers are gamers who have been playing games for years and are experienced with complex control systems and game mechanics. These people cannot be content with a system that is too simplistic like run, shoot, repeat because it's boring.

Look at the game play in Crysis. You run around a level, hiding and shooting and then you hop to another level, run around and do the same thing. There's no complexity in there and there really can't be if it's targeted at intense 'adults' who are cooler than everyone else.


I'd love it if you could offer a concise, logical explanation with evidence, of how the fundamental game play in a modern shooter differs significantly from Doom? I'm not talking about electric armor on the enemies, better graphics, bigger levels or other minor differences. How has the game play changed from 'run around and shoot things'? Keep in mind, I'm a fan of FPS, and have been playing FPS since before you were born (or I assume so from the maturity/coherence of your posts), original Doom shareware version up to the modern era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Violence requires maturity.

On to your opinion that a game isn't mature or intense unless it is violent, and apparently a similar fascination with violent movies.

How many people have YOU killed, personally?

Myself, none directly. But, I have been trained to kill, and after serving through two wars and a few 'minor conflicts', I've been a member of units that have killed people.

So, by your own logic, I am far more mature (and intense!) than you.

To go on, that would mean that a 13 year old member of a warlord's private army in Africa is more mature than either of us, since he 'plays' FPS for real, right? Hitler or Stalin would be the most mature and intense people of all time, since they have the most frags, right? You must think Ghandi was one immature bugger.

I agree with you that a certain level of maturity is required to separate the violence in games from real life violence; and that many games incorporate some type of violence, obviously of different depiction levels.

After all, even Mario involves some violence, you are stomping on enemies and crushing their life out, pulling the limbs off of an octopus, etc. I mentioned earlier that I enjoy a good FPS, in fact I used to play them almost exclusively, and still put in a couple hours a week when I get the time, sometimes more when I'm close to an MP unlock, or come across a good SP one, like HL2 and it's Episodes.

Then I grew up (some might say matured) and realized that there is more to life than such simplistic game play day after day. Have you ever achieved a cultural victory in Civ4-BtS without going to war? Made it through the Enclave in Fallout 2 without firing a shot? Won a MP game of C&C using only mini gunners? (I was the victim of that one) Made it all the way through Tower Defense with your friends in WC3? Not as hand/eye/twitch intense as an FPS, but much more intellectually satisfying.

I don't think that playing a family/party/sports game with friends makes someone any less of a man, less mature, etc. In fact they are pretty popular within the military on deployment, good for letting off steam after the real bullets are flying. (I'm sure you don't know anything about that though)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

In fact, I'd say the Wii has split the market further than the previous generation consoles by simply not trying to compete on the same terms the PS3 and XBox are. They are themselves admitting that they're not after the same market.

And which one is laughing all the way to the bank, while outselling the others by a huge margin, and having sex with many women on their piles of cash? Maybe Nintendo isn't the one in the wrong market?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

And you seem to be indicating that you ignore common knowledge. Women are genetically the emotionally weaker sex. It doesn't apply to all women but I'm generalizing.

Sigh. This has been covered by others, but I'll just say you need to get the number of a good divorce lawyer, you're going to need one.

I don't expect any of this to change your opinion though, just as I don't take what is said on the internet personally. Although I do feel better after venting some...\
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
Reply
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
Reply
post #127 of 165
Sigh... you guys are stinking off this thread.

If you are into mature games, get PS3 or Xbox 360. Even the president of Nintendo will agree that they have better selection of mature games than a Wii.

If you are into family-oriented games, get a Wii. And please, let's not debate on what constitutes mature and family-oriented. You know exactly what they are. If you don't, you are probably better off NOT playing any games.

If impressive technical spec is important to you, get PS3 or Xbox 360. If you like Blu-Ray, get a PS3. If you like HD DVD, get an Xbox 360.

If motion sensing controllers interest you more than HD graphics and sound, get a Wii.
post #128 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by filburt View Post

Sigh... you guys are stinking off this thread.

I have to agree with that, and I'm guilty as charged too.

You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
Reply
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
Reply
post #129 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by filburt View Post

Sigh... you guys are stinking off this thread.

If you are into mature games, get PS3 or Xbox 360. Even the president of Nintendo will agree that they have better selection of mature games than a Wii.

If you are into family-oriented games, get a Wii. And please, let's not debate on what constitutes mature and family-oriented. You know exactly what they are. If you don't, you are probably better off NOT playing any games.

If impressive technical spec is important to you, get PS3 or Xbox 360. If you like Blu-Ray, get a PS3. If you like HD DVD, get an Xbox 360.

If motion sensing controllers interest you more than HD graphics and sound, get a Wii.

Do you really think you 'solved' the question this thread posed?

Nice try but the things you say have been said and debated ad nauseam.
post #130 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Don't you mean Mrs. Hand?

Well, probably I should just refer to it as "The Hand" -- you see, it is bisexual and a hermaphrodite too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

.....So you're a grown man and you think playing a Sony/Microsoft-brand video game is objectively cooler than playing a Nintendo-brand video game?

I AM A VERY IMPRESSIVE MAN! I HAVE SEX WITH MANY WOMEN!....

Hmm.
post #131 of 165
iPoster:

Quote:
Now, this applies just as easily to the games you profess to be 'mature', 'intense' and I hazard to guess, 'manly':

Hardcore gamers are gamers who have been playing games for years and are experienced with complex control systems and game mechanics. These people cannot be content with a system that is too simplistic like run, shoot, repeat because it's boring.

Look at the game play in Crysis. You run around a level, hiding and shooting and then you hop to another level, run around and do the same thing. There's no complexity in there and there really can't be if it's targeted at intense 'adults' who are cooler than everyone else.

I'd love it if you could offer a concise, logical explanation with evidence, of how the fundamental game play in a modern shooter differs significantly from Doom? I'm not talking about electric armor on the enemies, better graphics, bigger levels or other minor differences. How has the game play changed from 'run around and shoot things'? Keep in mind, I'm a fan of FPS, and have been playing FPS since before you were born (or I assume so from the maturity/coherence of your posts), original Doom shareware version up to the modern era.

Even though the concept of going around and shooting people is continuous, the way you do it differs every level. It's not like you're walking in a straight line and there's always a guy in the same spot right in front of you and you shoot him. In fps's, the enemy is clever. He hides and you must seek. You have different missions in which you much neutralize the enemy or diffuse a bomb. You must rescue your fallen comrades while dodging bullets which are flying at you from every which way.

The perfect example of this is CoD4. If you're a sniper for say, you must hide in a good place, or else the enemy sees you as soon as you shoot and when they respawn, BAM!, you're dead.
MacBook Pro
2.2GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB
120GB Serial ATA Drive@5400rpm
SuperDrive 8x
15" Glossy Widescreen Display

with a wireless Apple keyboard

and

iPod Touch
8GB
Reply
MacBook Pro
2.2GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM - 2x1GB
120GB Serial ATA Drive@5400rpm
SuperDrive 8x
15" Glossy Widescreen Display

with a wireless Apple keyboard

and

iPod Touch
8GB
Reply
post #132 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galley View Post

The PS3, however, is worth every penny.

lollll
post #133 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster View Post

OK, it's more than obvious by now you're either a troll, or an attention whore, or both and not worth my time; but I'll go ahead and do this anyway, mainly because I'm bored.

I hope you're not holding yourself to a different standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iposter

I'm not talking about electric armor on the enemies, better graphics, bigger levels or other minor differences. How has the game play changed from 'run around and shoot things'?

There are more complex character controls and also tactics like stealth. In Splinter Cell, you can toss a coin or something to attract a guard but stay hidden before you attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iposter

So, by your own logic, I am far more mature (and intense!) than you.

Not really, you haven't killed anybody but if you had, I would agree that's pretty intense.

This does not however mean that you are intense now. My grandad also fought in those wars and did kill people but these days likes to watch soap operas and gardening programs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iposter

I agree with you that a certain level of maturity is required to separate the violence in games from real life violence; and that many games incorporate some type of violence, obviously of different depiction levels.

That is all I was suggesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iposter

After all, even Mario involves some violence, you are stomping on enemies and crushing their life out, pulling the limbs off of an octopus

Yeah Groverat has said things like that before too but as filburt says, the difference is quite obvious between mature games and family games. I don't think I need to elaborate on that more than I have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iposter

I don't think that playing a family/party/sports game with friends makes someone any less of a man, less mature, etc. In fact they are pretty popular within the military on deployment, good for letting off steam after the real bullets are flying.

But you're looking at it the wrong way. The people who fire real bullets don't have to play these games and so they may play more relaxed games.

It's the same deal with porn stars. Apparently they don't watch porn movies but prefer normal films.

But that's what we are saying. If you are looking for that kind of experience, the Wii games generally don't deliver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iposter

And which one is laughing all the way to the bank, while outselling the others by a huge margin, and having sex with many women on their piles of cash? Maybe Nintendo isn't the one in the wrong market?


Yes, but this discussion is not about which market is more profitable. It is about whether or not the Wii delivers to a certain type of player.

I have no doubt that NIntendo is happy with the market they are targeting as it's making them money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iposter

Sigh. This has been covered by others, but I'll just say you need to get the number of a good divorce lawyer, you're going to need one.

I've got that one covered, I don't plan to get married. Of course if I ever got into a divorce-type settlement, I can just kill her with my FPS skillz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iposter

I don't expect any of this to change your opinion though, just as I don't take what is said on the internet personally. Although I do feel better after venting some...\

This is what internet discussions are all about. It doesn't matter if anyone on either side changes their mind, after all we've formed our opinions over a number of years based on our own experiences.
post #134 of 165
Marvin:

Quote:
Violence requires a degree of emotional maturity to deal with it. Years ago, my mum would cringe and walk out the room hearing Lara Croft fall to her death and hear her bones breaking or choking while drowning. I call that emotionally weak.

Perhaps it displays maturity because she connects that to reality, and she feels real empathy for those who suffer that pain.

Your speaking about the emotional reactions of your own mother with such disdain is fairly revealing.

Quote:
If an increasingly large group of people decide they want to be a part of franchises aimed at kids, does that change the target demographic? I personally don't think so.

What franchise are you talking about?

Quote:
Yeeeeah and why isn't it a popular way to attack it?

Because they have other attacks.
The existence (or even efficacy) of an attack does not mean it is true.

Quote:
Well to me personally, the Mario games felt the same. Like I say, these things can't be defined universally. It depends on what level of gameplay experience you are at.

So you make categorical statements of reality and truth based solely on your own personal feelings?

As far as level of gameplay experience… what is this supposed to mean? Once you've logged X# of hours you no longer enjoy simple games?

Quote:
In the same way, I think most Nintendo games are weaker than PS3/XBox 360 games because I have a different benchmark.

Different? Yes.
Superior, more "mature"? No.

Quote:
How do you know that Zelda and Mario are designed for a large age range?

Because they are filled with allusions to games made 20 years ago, playing precisely on the nostalgia older gamers will feel towards the games they played when they were younger.

Quote:
Hardcore gamers are gamers who have been playing games for years and are experienced with complex control systems and game mechanics. These people cannot be content with a system that is too simplistic like run, jump, collect because it's boring.

I have been playing games for years and I am experience with complex control systems and game mechanics.

Isn't an inability on someone's part to adjust to different levels of intensity and complexity a sign of immaturity on their part? I think it is more reasonable to credit the more adaptable person with maturity.

Quote:
All that says is people prefer cheap to intense.

What is the price difference between a Wii and a base XBox 360?

Xbox 360 Core Arcade Bundle - $279.99

The Wii retails for $250. They go on eBay for $400+.

Yet another asinine argument fails.

Quote:
One that isn't full of repetitive gameplay mechanics. So for example, hopping from one small planet to another is not in-depth gameplay.

FPS games don't have repetitive gameplay?
Run around, hide, shoot.
Run around, hide, shoot.
Run around, hide, shoot.

It's ok, because sometimes I like the process, but let's not pretend that modern FPS games are really complex at all. If you want complexity, you should start talking about highly-involved RTS.

Quote:
There are exceptions of course - I can't think of many stereotypes that are based on absolutes. But having a handful of these games does not redefine the console.

A console is nothing but the games that play on it.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #135 of 165
FPS gameplay mechanics have moved on from Doom, no question about that. Some of them are far more complex than Groverat gives them credit for.

But the biggest steps forward I can think of were taken till about 1999. Good games have been made afterwards, but the ones that dare to do something truly new are few and far between.

This counterexample also fails:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

There are more complex character controls and also tactics like stealth. In Splinter Cell, you can toss a coin or something to attract a guard but stay hidden before you attack.

Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake, a 3rd person stealth/combat game like Splinter Cell, had this game mechanic in 1990.

Thief: Dark Project (1998) did it in 3D from the first person perspective. Though very strictly focused on stealth, it can be called a FPS while Splinter Cell (2002) is not.

Original *FPS* game designs from *this* decade would be more convincing as indicators that FPS gameplay is actually going somewhere.
post #136 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Perhaps it displays maturity because she connects that to reality, and she feels real empathy for those who suffer that pain.

I agree with iPoster who agrees with me:

Quote:
I agree with you that a certain level of maturity is required to separate the violence in games from real life violence

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Because they have other attacks.
The existence (or even efficacy) of an attack does not mean it is true.

It has to have an element of truth or it would fall flat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

So you make categorical statements of reality and truth based solely on your own personal feelings?

Nope I make definitions that encompass variables. I don't feel the need to work in absolute terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

As far as level of gameplay experience… what is this supposed to mean? Once you've logged X# of hours you no longer enjoy simple games?

Of course, that's human nature, we get bored with repetition and grow out of simple pleasures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

I have been playing games for years and I am experience with complex control systems and game mechanics.

Isn't an inability on someone's part to adjust to different levels of intensity and complexity a sign of immaturity on their part? I think it is more reasonable to credit the more adaptable person with maturity.

I have the ability to adapt but not the desire to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

What is the price difference between a Wii and a base XBox 360?

The Wii retails for $250. They go on eBay for $400+.

Yet another asinine argument fails.

You're looking at the evidence in a biased way though. The consoles are out of stock in stores because people wanted a cheap machine. They are highly priced on ebay because they are out of stock and there are some people desperate to get one. This would be the case if the Xbox was that cheap and out of stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

FPS games don't have repetitive gameplay?
Run around, hide, shoot.

Sufficient levels of AI, detailed and varied environments, different enemy defense tactics and different weapons required help keep the gameplay from being repetitive. But sure there will be some level of repetition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

It's ok, because sometimes I like the process, but let's not pretend that modern FPS games are really complex at all. If you want complexity, you should start talking about highly-involved RTS.

Isn't Portal technically a first person shooter? That can be pretty complex.

Anyway, I'm simply pointing out that the majority of modern FPS games would be difficult for an inexperienced gamer to access. I'd feel relatively confident that my mum could navigate through Mario Galaxy but she'd be killed in seconds playing CoD4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

A console is nothing but the games that play on it.

It also has an identity associated with it from Nintendo, Microsoft or Sony and with the exclusive titles and general style, genres, age ranges of the games presented for the console.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon

Original *FPS* game designs from *this* decade would be more convincing as indicators that FPS gameplay is actually going somewhere.

But you are simplifying the definition of FPS. I might as well say all games have no innovation as they all involve a 3D character moving in 3D space doing something and that's been done since the 90s. This is clearly wrong because people are still buying new and innovative FPS games.

Here's an article posted today on this thread subject, it has some interesting points and a lot of them already covered from both sides:

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/6184018....;picks;title;2

One item related to the exact thread title concerning the Wii target audience is this:

"David Yarnton, Nintendo UK's general manager, said, "We are not fighting our competitors, we are fighting apathy... Instead of trying to improve technology for its own sake, we decided to focus on those who weren't even playing games, who weren't on the radar.""

So Nintendo's focus i.e demographic by their own admission is people who aren't even playing games. It's a pretty vast jump to include experienced or hardcore gamers in that demographic when they are completely opposite.

Square Enix president says a similar thing:

"consoles such as the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 "overengineered" and "too complex." He said, "There are too many specs--and you also need a high-definition TV, a broadband connection, and a deep knowledge of gaming. These consoles are mismatched to today's environment. In a year or two years, they will fare better."

He thinks they are being premature in releasing such advanced consoles but admits the scalability is there for the future. The Wii will fail in this regard. I guess Nintendo could always shorten their console release cycle as they'll have made their money more quickly where Sony and M$ will be trying to recoup losses but this isn't a great idea given the complexity and timeframe of game creation.
post #137 of 165
Let there be peace on Earth!

Just not in this thread! LOL



Zero Punctuation's take on the console wars. (extremely NSFW language, and a bit dated (August) but an excellent commentary on each console's shortcomings!)
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
Reply
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
Reply
post #138 of 165
Give me a good board game any day...
post #139 of 165
Marvin:

Quote:
I agree with iPoster who agrees with me:

Well there's a rock-solid argument if I've ever seen one; appeal to anonymous Internet poster authority.

Quote:
It has to have an element of truth or it would fall flat.

Of course it has an element of truth. There are a lot of kid-friendly games on the Nintendo. This does not mean that Nintendo products are solely for kids anymore than the fact that my car is often driven on a highway means that my car was built solely for highways.

Quote:
Of course, that's human nature, we get bored with repetition and grow out of simple pleasures.

This is absolutely nothing like human nature at all. The older we get, the more we actually enjoy simple pleasures. It's a bit redundant to attack your astounding ignorance of human nature (loathing violence = weakness; women love to get beaten up; etc…), but what you are describing is actually the symptomatic progression of substance abuse.

Quote:
I have the ability to adapt but not the desire to.

Which seems to make your viewpoint more narrow and inflexible and, therefore, less mature.

Quote:
You're looking at the evidence in a biased way though. The consoles are out of stock in stores because people wanted a cheap machine.

Where is the Wii regularly in stock for $250?
I can get a $280 Xbox 360 right now. I can get one 30 minutes from now. I will have no problem at all getting one.

Quote:
They are highly priced on ebay because they are out of stock and there are some people desperate to get one.

If the attraction was price, why would they pay more for a Wii than a PS3 off-the-shelf (there are plenty of those on shelves)?

Quote:
Sufficient levels of AI, detailed and varied environments, different enemy defense tactics and different weapons required help keep the gameplay from being repetitive. But sure there will be some level of repetition.

Just like with Mario/Zelda games.

Quote:
Anyway, I'm simply pointing out that the majority of modern FPS games would be difficult for an inexperienced gamer to access. I'd feel relatively confident that my mum could navigate through Mario Galaxy but she'd be killed in seconds playing CoD4.

Sure, but what does this mean? Complexity for complexity's sake isn't good. A more complex game is not necessarily a better or more mature game.

Quote:
It also has an identity associated with it from Nintendo, Microsoft or Sony and with the exclusive titles and general style, genres, age ranges of the games presented for the console.

Why should anyone care about the "identity" of a games console?

Quote:
I might as well say all games have no innovation as they all involve a 3D character moving in 3D space doing something and that's been done since the 90s. This is clearly wrong because people are still buying new and innovative FPS games.

Yet you paint Mario/Zelda-type games with that stagnation brush… you should try being less hypocritical and dishonest in your talking points.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #140 of 165
post #141 of 165
And one more time in case the image links go down:

post #142 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

FPS gameplay mechanics have moved on from Doom, no question about that. Some of them are far more complex than Groverat gives them credit for......Original *FPS* game designs from *this* decade would be more convincing as indicators that FPS gameplay is actually going somewhere.

In this decade, Unreal Tournament 2004, UT3, has to be considered as significantly advancing the FPS genre, IMO.

There is of course the deathmatch element, just as CounterStrike has the deathmatch element, the "bomb" thing is a cute add-on but not so significant as UT2004/ UT3 "Onslaught/Warfare" and "Capture The Flag" modes.

Firstly, yes, there have been many CaptureTheFlag gamestyles. However, in UT3, the vehicles, and vehicle designs take things to an interesting new level. Vehicles in particular like Necris Viper, Darkwalker, and Scavenger really mix things up, you'll know if you play it. In any 3D game, having a vehicle that actually moves based on 3 tentacle legs (UT3 scavenger), is really quite novel and not easy to code.

Then there is UT2004 (Onslaught) and UT3 (Warfare) "strategy" gameplay. This involves a somewhat complex system of "power nodes" which a team has to "own" to successfully attack the core enemy power node. Not as simple as it looks. Because a lot of decisions have to be made by various team members on what nodes to attack, what nodes to defend, and the timing on positioning attackers at the enemy core node to strike when just about the time when the enough nodes are controlled to "expose" the enemy core node.

There is this "orb" in Warfare mode. This has more "sport" then "killing" elements to it because it involves delivering this ball successfully to various nodes to instantly own it. Running with the orb and shooting around is generally suicide because all enemies will focus maximum attention on the orb carrier. Hence a more American Football/ rugby/ soccer approach is needed where the orb carrier has to dodge bullets, missiles, vehicles, landscape, building obstacles while running towards a node. There is a hoverboard and towing behind friendly vehicles that is also interesting. The team has to have enough cohesion so that if the orb is dropped, it needs to be carried on by someone else within about 10-15 seconds before the orb is "reset" to a position far away from where it needs to be carried to.

Obviously I'm a fan. Just wanted to share with everyone, despite this thread starting to suck majorly ... about UT3 contributing to the FPS genre.
post #143 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

....Why should anyone care about the "identity" of a games console?...

I think he was referring to something like "brand identity"....
post #144 of 165
A couple of suggestions as you move along in your illustrious posting career:

1 - Avoid stupid image macros.

2 - One post at a time.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #145 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster

Let there be peace on Earth!

Just not in this thread! LOL

Zero Punctuation's take on the console wars. (extremely NSFW language, and a bit dated (August) but an excellent commentary on each console's shortcomings!)

That video was great. Quite a good summary of the situation I'd say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Well there's a rock-solid argument if I've ever seen one; appeal to anonymous Internet poster authority.

I wasn't appealing to any type of authority, you asked a question and I said my opinion on that point was the same as iPoster's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Of course it has an element of truth. There are a lot of kid-friendly games on the Nintendo. This does not mean that Nintendo products are solely for kids anymore than the fact that my car is often driven on a highway means that my car was built solely for highways.

The car wasn't built 'solely' for it but here you are working in absolutes again. You do get cars which are designed for certain types of terrain whether or not you choose to drive them on a variety of terrain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

It's a bit redundant to attack your astounding ignorance of human nature (loathing violence = weakness; women love to get beaten up; etc), but what you are describing is actually the symptomatic progression of substance abuse.

I didn't actually say either of those things so I'll assume you just decided to go off on your own tangent. I believe that's symptomatic of substance abuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Which seems to make your viewpoint more narrow and inflexible and, therefore, less mature.

Uh, I don't think so somehow. If a kid asks me to play a kids game and I say I could but I'd rather not, I hardly think that makes me less mature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Where is the Wii regularly in stock for $250?
I can get a $280 Xbox 360 right now. I can get one 30 minutes from now. I will have no problem at all getting one.

I don't see your point, that's just what I was saying. The Wii isn't in stock because it was cheaper and sold out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

If the attraction was price, why would they pay more for a Wii than a PS3 off-the-shelf (there are plenty of those on shelves)?

I already answered that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Just like with Mario/Zelda games.

AI in Mario? You mean the advanced AI where the bombermen run around aimlessly trying to home in on your location? You mean varied locations like having a different solid color on a planet? You mean different weapons like jumping on something or punching it? No, not just like Mario/Zelda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Sure, but what does this mean? Complexity for complexity's sake isn't good. A more complex game is not necessarily a better or more mature game.

It's not complexity for the sake of complexity. It's complexity which results from more advanced development i.e an actual progression of gaming since it started. When gaming first arrived, there were no advanced games. It was Pong or nothing. Games progressed in terms of complexity, depth and entertainment value. Nintendo is staying in the 90s with basic button bashing or Wii swishing in order to win games.

With modern FPS games you actually have to think about what you are doing, you don't just see an enemy and jump on their head to gain a star. You actually have to use real-life tactics to take an enemy down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Why should anyone care about the "identity" of a games console?

As nvidia said, brand identity is meaningful. No one should care but that's not to say they don't. Also, these brand identities exist for a reason and they have implications for developers who want to associate their product with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Yet you paint Mario/Zelda-type games with that stagnation brush you should try being less hypocritical and dishonest in your talking points.

If I'm being hypocritical then you are too since you are doing the same. In fact you are doubly hypocritical because you are criticizing me for being hypocritical, which is itself hypocrisy. But that doesn't make me doubly hypocritical for observing your double hypocrisy.
post #146 of 165
I came here for an argument!

Oh, I'm sorry. This is abuse.
post #147 of 165
Marvin:

Quote:
Uh, I don't think so somehow. If a kid asks me to play a kids game and I say I could but I'd rather not, I hardly think that makes me less mature.

How is being less flexible a good thing? How can an inability to do something simple be an admirable trait?

I can have fun playing Half-Life 2 and Mario Galaxy and Wii Bowling and Rock Star.

I think that is objectively better than only being able to have fun playing Half-Life 2.

Quote:
I don't see your point, that's just what I was saying. The Wii isn't in stock because it was cheaper and sold out.

Two questions:
Do you sincerely think the $30 difference between the 360 and the Wii is a strong factor in choosing between them?
Why spend $400 on a $250 retail product when, as you argue, people only buy it because it is cheap?

Quote:
AI in Mario? You mean the advanced AI where the bombermen run around aimlessly trying to home in on your location? You mean varied locations like having a different solid color on a planet? You mean different weapons like jumping on something or punching it? No, not just like Mario/Zelda.

I mean different capabilities, different weapons, different environments (space, under water, etc…), and enemies with different behaviors.

Quote:
Nintendo is staying in the 90s with basic button bashing or Wii swishing in order to win games.

How do 360 and PS3 controllers work if not "button bashing"? See how far you get in a PS3/360 game without pressing buttons.

Quote:
With modern FPS games you actually have to think about what you are doing, you don't just see an enemy and jump on their head to gain a star. You actually have to use real-life tactics to take an enemy down.

Yes, you don't jump on their head, you shoot them in the head.

Quote:
If I'm being hypocritical then you are too since you are doing the same. In fact you are doubly hypocritical because you are criticizing me for being hypocritical, which is itself hypocrisy. But that doesn't make me doubly hypocritical for observing your double hypocrisy.

What hypocrisy? When have I called an entire genre of game stagnant? I play FPS games and RTS games, and while they are not dramatically different from their forebears, I wouldn't be so stupid as to say they haven't changed at all.

You are the one ignorantly attacking an entire genre of games and showing an obvious ignorance of their content.

Adventure/platform games like Mario/Zelda and FPS/RTS games have all evolved over the course of time.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #148 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Nope I make definitions that encompass variables. I don't feel the need to work in absolute terms.

It's more mature and intense when you use relevant facts and arguments that do not need to be obfuscated by inventing your own definitions and not disclosing them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin

Isn't Portal technically a first person shooter? That can be pretty complex.

It's a puzzle game. I'm beginning to wonder if you understand the difference between gameplay and presentation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

In this decade, Unreal Tournament 2004, UT3, has to be considered as significantly advancing the FPS genre, IMO.

Firstly, yes, there have been many CaptureTheFlag gamestyles. However, in UT3, the vehicles, and vehicle designs take things to an interesting new level. Vehicles in particular like Necris Viper, Darkwalker, and Scavenger really mix things up, ...

Then there is UT2004 (Onslaught) and UT3 (Warfare) "strategy" gameplay. ...

There is this "orb" in Warfare mode. ...

^^^ This is how to do it.

Specific, unambiguous and relevant arguments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

With modern FPS games you actually have to think about what you are doing, you don't just see an enemy and jump on their head to gain a star. You actually have to use real-life tactics to take an enemy down.

Such as pointing at them with a mouse and pressing a button?

I browsed some COD4 single player clips from Youtube. The core gameplay has nothing to do with realism. The simplest infantry fighting techniques, taught starting from ~2-3 weeks of our basic training, are omitted. The strafing, pointing and clicking that is left in the assault scenes is little more than Counterstrike in nicer clothes. Nice graphics and scripted sequences though.
post #149 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

How is being less flexible a good thing? How can an inability to do something simple be an admirable trait?

I can have fun playing Half-Life 2 and Mario Galaxy and Wii Bowling and Rock Star.

I think that is objectively better than only being able to have fun playing Half-Life 2.

By mentioning 'inability' again shows you didn't read what I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Two questions:
Do you sincerely think the $30 difference between the 360 and the Wii is a strong factor in choosing between them?
Why spend $400 on a $250 retail product when, as you argue, people only buy it because it is cheap?

There may be a lower price difference now but that wasn't the case before, which is why I think the market will look different after Christmas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

I mean different capabilities, different weapons, different environments (space, under water, etc…), and enemies with different behaviors.

Well yeah but where is the progression from games that were out years ago? The statement you just made applies to the original Mario. Wolfenstein did not have advanced AI whereas CoD 4 does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

How do 360 and PS3 controllers work if not "button bashing"? See how far you get in a PS3/360 game without pressing buttons.

It doesn't surprise me that you don't know the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Yes, you don't jump on their head, you shoot them in the head.

They are far from equivalent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

What hypocrisy? When have I called an entire genre of game stagnant? I play FPS games and RTS games, and while they are not dramatically different from their forebears, I wouldn't be so stupid as to say they haven't changed at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

FPS games do not vary. For god's sake, what does the acronym "FPS" stand for?

Ouch, might want to check that contradiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Adventure/platform games like Mario/Zelda and FPS/RTS games have all evolved over the course of time.

But Mario/Zelda never beyond the level of accessibility to children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon

It's more mature and intense when you use relevant facts and arguments that do not need to be obfuscated by inventing your own definitions and not disclosing them.

I'll dumb it down a bit so you get it this time. Inexperienced gamers think that games targeted to them are intense. Experienced gamers know that games targeted to inexperienced gamers are not. Therefore the definition of intense varies based on the level of gaming experience you have or if you are older, the level of gaming intensity that you are comfortable with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon

It's a puzzle game. I'm beginning to wonder if you understand the difference between gameplay and presentation.

Ah so let me get this right. You are playing in the first person. You have a gun, which you shoot. I guess that makes it a puzzle game. It's a puzzle based FPS, FPS is not as narrow a genre as you like to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon

The core gameplay has nothing to do with realism.

That would be why they constantly researched modern warfare techniques by consulting people in the actual military who are in interviews saying how accurately the game portrays modern combat? Even going so far as to suggest it might be possible to use Call of Duty 4 as a training simulation.
post #150 of 165
Marvin:

Quote:
By mentioning 'inability' again shows you didn't read what I said.

What is the difference? You apparently find no fun in simple games. That is not something that makes you more mature. If it has anything to do with maturity, it shows you are less mature.

Quote:
There may be a lower price difference now but that wasn't the case before, which is why I think the market will look different after Christmas.

I have been going around fairly often trying to find Guitar Hero III for the Wii. At Target last night there were 6 PS3s with 8 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero), 10 Xbox 360s with 6 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero). No Wiis, not Guitar Hero for Wii. They got 4 Wiis and 3 GH-Wiis in that morning and they were sold out 45 minutes after the store opened.

That is anecdotal evidence, yes, but it's something I see myself all the time and someone people report all the time.

And, of course, I can just re-post my hard evidence…


You have no rationale behind why you think "the market will look different after Christmas". There are no reports of Wii sales flagging or PS3/XBox sales booming. Nothing even anecdotal supports it.

Quote:
Well yeah but where is the progression from games that were out years ago?

What the hell does this even mean? It is your assertion that Mario/Zelda games haven't changed, and that assertion is flatly untrue.

Quote:
It doesn't surprise me that you don't know the difference.

Tell me the difference.

Do you mean that you have to press buttons at the right time or the move fails? (Like timing a jump to land on a moving platform or on top of an enemy instead of in front or behind?)

Do you mean that you have to press a series of buttons in sequence or the move fails? (Like jumping up walls and going across moving obstacles?)

Quote:
Ouch, might want to check that contradiction.

What contradiction? What FPS game varies from another? They are all FPS. You have a gun in front of you and you shoot the enemies. It's a cheap observation, because the acronym itself purposefully categorizes a certain type of game; if they did vary they wouldn't be FPS games anymore.

What's funny about that is that you quote me saying that FPS games evolve over time. Perhaps you should learn what the word "vary" means.

Quote:
But Mario/Zelda never beyond the level of accessibility to children.

Children are part of the target audience. Not the entire target audience, but part of it.
The UI you are using to type this post is designed to be accessible to children, why aren't you in a command prompt in Linux BIG STRONG INTERNET MAN?

Quote:
Therefore the definition of intense varies based on the level of gaming experience you have or if you are older, the level of gaming intensity that you are comfortable with.

"Intense" means "intense", it doesn't vary based on game genre. Perhaps you just aren't very good at coming up with the right word for the job.

Quote:
That would be why they constantly researched modern warfare techniques by consulting people in the actual military who are in interviews saying how accurately the game portrays modern combat? Even going so far as to suggest it might be possible to use Call of Duty 4 as a training simulation.

You should change your username to "I LOVE MARKETING!"
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #151 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Ah so let me get this right. You are playing in the first person. You have a gun, which you shoot. I guess that makes it a puzzle game. It's a puzzle based FPS, FPS is not as narrow a genre as you like to believe.

I'm guessing that makes Super Mario Sunshine a 3rd person shooter then.
Quote:
That would be why they constantly researched modern warfare techniques by consulting people in the actual military who are in interviews saying how accurately the game portrays modern combat?

They need experts to make it look good and superficially "correct". I don't know how much you know about game development, but the full design documents, illustrations etc. for a major title grow to thousands of pages, regardless of if it's a fantasy game or realistic. The environment needs to be internally consistent and whole to be immersive.

What you don't notice are the elements of a real tactical scenario that are missing and that the game makes no attempt to replicate. They would make things too difficult for your average "intense mature" sixteen-year old console gamer, and also repetitive, boring and unfair. That's why they are not in a mass market console game, and never will be. There'd be no point.
Quote:
Even going so far as to suggest it might be possible to use Call of Duty 4 as a training simulation.

Hmm.. I think I have heard that before?

You can take a cutting-edge training tool like VBS2 far ahead of an interactive movie like COD4 in realism, stick the same extreme-mature sixteen-year olds in the driver's seat, and while you'd have a rhythm of action closer to the real thing, it would be a team deathmatch.

The presence and intervention of professional instructors, a focus on a particular thing to train, chain of command, communication and adherence to standard operating procecures are elements that turn a game into a useful, relevant training exercise. Additional tools and out-of-game rules round out the training environment.
post #152 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Even going so far as to suggest it might be possible to use Call of Duty 4 as a training simulation.

They found real police officers to say similar things about the original Police Quest. Does that mean that Police Quest is too intense and mature for Wii players?
post #153 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

I have been going around fairly often trying to find Guitar Hero III for the Wii. At Target last night there were 6 PS3s with 8 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero), 10 Xbox 360s with 6 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero). No Wiis, not Guitar Hero for Wii. They got 4 Wiis and 3 GH-Wiis in that morning and they were sold out 45 minutes after the store opened.

That is anecdotal evidence, yes, but it's something I see myself all the time and someone people report all the time.


You have no rationale behind why you think "the market will look different after Christmas". There are no reports of Wii sales flagging or PS3/XBox sales booming. Nothing even anecdotal supports it.

Absolutely correct, I have never talked to a store that didn't sell out of their Wii shipment in 30-45 minutes. Recently I was at the base Exchange on Fort Bragg, they literally had stacks of 30-40 PS3s and 360s each on the floor of the game department, not a Wii in sight. If I'd had my camera with me I would have taken a picture, it was so comical!

Funny how they don't have a 360 or PS3 rain-check program?

Or this, google results for 'how to find a wii':
Results 1 - 10 of about 14,300,000 for how to find a wii

Almost all the results for 'how to find a PS3' are from last Christmas, or are how to find a cheap PS3: Results 1 - 10 of about 5,910,000 for how to find a PS3.

This season my Aunt went out of her way to find a Wii...for my 70+ year old Grandmother and Great Aunt (who live together now). Maybe not 'intense' gamers, but they over qualify as 'mature'! And another sale for Nintendo over Sony or Microsoft.

\
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
Reply
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
Reply
post #154 of 165
AAAGH, too... many... Wii-ners... posting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

What is the difference? You apparently find no fun in simple games. That is not something that makes you more mature. If it has anything to do with maturity, it shows you are less mature.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one or we'll just go in circles. I don't believe that my lack of desire to play children's games makes me immature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

I have been going around fairly often trying to find Guitar Hero III for the Wii. At Target last night there were 6 PS3s with 8 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero), 10 Xbox 360s with 6 Rock Band games for that (and assorted Guitar Hero). No Wiis, not Guitar Hero for Wii. They got 4 Wiis and 3 GH-Wiis in that morning and they were sold out 45 minutes after the store opened.

Wii owners like kids games like Guitar Hero. PS3 and 360 customers are more hardcore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

That is anecdotal evidence, yes, but it's something I see myself all the time and someone people report all the time.

You mean my anecdotal evidence was just based on what I experience some of the time? This would make your anecdotal evidence more accurate and it conveniently supports your own bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

And, of course, I can just re-post my hard evidence

Yeah but that 'evidence' is based on the assumption that all consoles are marketed to a common demographic, which I don't believe is the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

You have no rationale behind why you think "the market will look different after Christmas". There are no reports of Wii sales flagging or PS3/XBox sales booming. Nothing even anecdotal supports it.

You're looking at total sales. The 360 is actually outselling the Wii in America but is doing terribly in Japan. Can we even lump hugely different cultures together and make general assessments about the habits of any one culture? I don't believe we can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Tell me the difference.

Do you mean that you have to press buttons at the right time or the move fails? (Like timing a jump to land on a moving platform or on top of an enemy instead of in front or behind?)

Do you mean that you have to press a series of buttons in sequence or the move fails? (Like jumping up walls and going across moving obstacles?)

I'm not going to fall for that one because it seems suspiciously like you're going to say Mario and/or Zelda have these things. Anyway, things like Wii sports, just swishing the controller around is button bashing. Not all games will be. For example, I'd imagine that Burnout on the Wii isn't vastly removed from Burnout on the PS3 or 360. Again, I mean that most games are just targeted to kids and it's those games with the simplistic controls where you score points with just uncontrolled thrashing. I've seen videos on youtube of kids playing with the Wii and that's all they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Children are part of the target audience. Not the entire target audience, but part of it.
The UI you are using to type this post is designed to be accessible to children, why aren't you in a command prompt in Linux BIG STRONG INTERNET MAN?

I am not looking for an intense experience that will draw me into the action. But when I do need to get something hardcore done, I use the command line and I do so daily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

"Intense" means "intense", it doesn't vary based on game genre. Perhaps you just aren't very good at coming up with the right word for the job.

I didn't say it varied based on genre unless you are defining the target audience as a genre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

You should change your username to "I LOVE MARKETING!"

Well, normally I'd agree that it's just a marketing angle but I would have said the same thing about Gran Tourismo (note: Playstation exclusive). Then I saw the comparison done on Top Gear:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=3

I don't consider GT to be a very intense game btw, this is about research and realism vs marketing.

Btw, Groverat I noticed you said you played the Orange Box. I'm curious as to why you might think they didn't port it to the Wii.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon

I'm guessing that makes Super Mario Sunshine a 3rd person shooter then.

Nope because you don't primarily shoot things, it's a platformer. Portal is a modification of an FPS, Mario isn't. You can use the Portal gun inside HL2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon

They need experts to make it look good and superficially "correct". I don't know how much you know about game development, but the full design documents, illustrations etc. for a major title grow to thousands of pages, regardless of if it's a fantasy game or realistic. The environment needs to be internally consistent and whole to be immersive.

Yeah but the development effort goes deeper than superficial. The bullets in CoD 4 for example have different penetration levels depending on what material they are hitting. These things affect the game considerably. I've played PSone games where you could perform a head shot using a shotgun with the same efficiency as a sniper rifle. Some games have moved on and the effort shows. The PS3 and XBox 360 are powerful enough to handle very realistic physics and this completely affects how the game plays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon

What you don't notice are the elements of a real tactical scenario that are missing and that the game makes no attempt to replicate. They would make things too difficult for your average "intense mature" sixteen-year old console gamer, and also repetitive, boring and unfair. That's why they are not in a mass market console game, and never will be. There'd be no point.

I'll agree there, they still have to weight the development effort towards entertainment value in the end and doing so can easily be at the expense of realism. But that doesn't reduce the achievement of the development effort involved in the higher end games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guartho

They found real police officers to say similar things about the original Police Quest. Does that mean that Police Quest is too intense and mature for Wii players?

I knew this would happen. Somehow game intensity and the point about the complexity in games has become mixed together. Just because a game is complex does not make it intense (Gran Tourismo). Just because a game is intense does not make it complex (possibly Burnout). But there needs to be some level of both in order to satisfy a hardcore gamer and children's games are weak on both counts. Mild content and simplistic controls (Mario).

Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster

Or this, google results for 'how to find a wii':
Results 1 - 10 of about 14,300,000 for how to find a wii

Hmmm, you get 15.1 million for how to find a gay. That seems like one hell of a coincidence. Or maybe it's completely meaningless results given that the Xbox returns 13.7 million.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster

This season my Aunt went out of her way to find a Wii...for my 70+ year old Grandmother and Great Aunt (who live together now). Maybe not 'intense' gamers, but they over qualify as 'mature'! And another sale for Nintendo over Sony or Microsoft.

I meant immature as in immature gamer i.e underdeveloped/inexperienced. I imagine your elderly relatives qualify for that.

All you need are another 2.5 million OAPs to buy a Wii and they'll be neck and neck with the 360 sales in America. Not sure how that'll affect Nintendo's reputation though. First they were all about the kids, now they're after the OAPs. They're going to be the most uncool consoles ever.

I can hear the kids at school now - 'Haha you have a Wii? My Grandma has one of them'. *pummelling ensues*.
post #155 of 165
Oh boy..... I can't figure out what's more embarrassing: the fact that this thread is really beyond sad, or the fact that the handful of posters that atavistically go back-and forth (as though they are on their game-controller autopilot) doesn't realize that it is beyond sad.

Ewwww.......

Quit it, guys.
post #156 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Oh boy..... I can't figure out what's more embarrassing: the fact that this thread is really beyond sad, or the fact that the handful of posters that atavistically go back-and forth (as though they are on their game-controller autopilot) doesn't realize that it is beyond sad.

Ewwww.......

Quit it, guys.

What makes this thread worse than any other? If it's a subject you don't care about then don't post. The thread subject is concerning the Wii relative to the other consoles. This is no different from say the long Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD discussion (hell yeah 116 pages here we come ).

I actually think the thread has been pretty good and has at least stayed true to the topic at hand. It's unlikely to be a topic that will be resolved as it's opinion based but very few good discussions can be resolved quickly.

One thing that probably puts people off is the long posts so maybe we can try to cut down on the length of those. Believe it or not I'm trying to but the Wii people are all over this thread and all the non-Wii people have buggered off.

If I can reduce it, I'd like to discuss the following main points:

- The 360 is actually outselling the Wii in America but is doing terribly in Japan. Cultural differences.
- Why aren't games like the Orange Box on the Wii? Underpowered?
- Do games need to become more complex with the development effort required or are simple games enough given that people have enjoyed simple games for years? Will there ever be a limit to how complex they can become and if we reach that state will they stop being innovative?

We can move away from the whole target demographic issue as that's not really going anywhere and it's obvious enough that it doesn't need to be analyzed.
post #157 of 165
Quote:
Wii owners like kids games like Guitar Hero. PS3 and 360 customers are more hardcore.

Why, then, are sales for GH and Rock Band so high?

Quote:
You mean my anecdotal evidence was just based on what I experience some of the time? This would make your anecdotal evidence more accurate and it conveniently supports your own bias?

Anecdotal evidence regarding measurable reality is different than anecdotal evidence regarding personal opinion. It is either true or untrue that there are PS3s and XBoxes left on the shelves longer than Wiis. There is no truth about one's personal opinion with regards to the enjoyability of games or, even more subjectively, whether or not certain games are "cool".

Quote:
Yeah but that 'evidence' is based on the assumption that all consoles are marketed to a common demographic, which I don't believe is the case.

So it is you assertion that MS and Sony purposefully market their products to a smaller market than Nintendo's? I don't think that's the case at all.
These two games were big parts of MS and Sony marketing. - Viva Pinata & Little Big Planet

Quote:
I'm not going to fall for that one because it seems suspiciously like you're going to say Mario and/or Zelda have these things.

Fall for what? Mario and Zelda have varied gameplay control and elements. To be successful, you need to do things in sequence with proper timing while avoiding obstacles and enemies. You can avoid it all you like, but it's true.

Quote:
Well, normally I'd agree that it's just a marketing angle but I would have said the same thing about Gran Tourismo (note: Playstation exclusive).

It's marketing. It's all marketing.

Quote:
Btw, Groverat I noticed you said you played the Orange Box. I'm curious as to why you might think they didn't port it to the Wii.

Too much work, I'd imagine, and the Wii probably doesn't have the horsepower to make it look like they want.
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
proud resident of a failed state
Reply
post #158 of 165
I know this isn't at all relevant, but I just had to post it:
(not my work, from LLBBL.com)

You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
Reply
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
Reply
post #159 of 165
Thanks to BRAVIA TVs, Sony's stock is actually doing decent, even immediately after said fiascoes. Then again, if it weren't for Blu-Ray (I think PS3 would be at least as successful as Xbox 360 otherwise), memory stick, rootkit, exploding battery, etc., Sony would be doing very well.
post #160 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Why, then, are sales for GH and Rock Band so high?

Maybe it's people that couldn't get a Wii?

It's probably just some Christmas thing. Families are always looking to buy unique gifts just to see the looks on people's faces when you open it, not realizing it's not really a good surprise.

I bet the second hand bins will be full of Guitar Hero after Christmas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Anecdotal evidence regarding measurable reality is different than anecdotal evidence regarding personal opinion. It is either true or untrue that there are PS3s and XBoxes left on the shelves longer than Wiis. There is no truth about one's personal opinion with regards to the enjoyability of games or, even more subjectively, whether or not certain games are "cool".

You only know about the stores you've seen and my opinion is based on people I've come in contact with over a number of years which is a social observation. Also, having PS3s and 360s left on shelves is a good thing. That means supply > demand so fewer unhappy people at Christmas time.

Plus, like I say although you are seeing more boxes in store, if you are in the US, the XBox 360 is actually doing really well. Some figures put the Wii ahead but others put the 360 ahead so the Wii isn't completely wiping the floor when you also have to consider that the 360 is fighting off the PS3 and a bad reputation for hardware failure. Maybe the extra 360s are in store to allow for exchanges over the Christmas period.

There was also a rumor going round that Nintendo were deliberately holding back supplies. Given the hype that surrounds an out of stock product, it's not surprising why they'd do that really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

So it is you assertion that MS and Sony purposefully market their products to a smaller market than Nintendo's? I don't think that's the case at all.
These two games were big parts of MS and Sony marketing. - Viva Pinata & Little Big Planet

Ah no, y'see I think that Sony and Microsoft are targeting a slightly bigger market but it's because their market is divided between PSP, 360, PS3 and PS2 that it seems smaller.

But anyway, I don't think companies necessarily go after the biggest market, they go after the most profitable (like Apple) or at least what they feel is more profitable. They probably know that a 20-something guy would be willing to spend more than the average parent on a game or console.

What parent who has 3 mouths to feed, a mortgage, a car etc. walks into a store and pays £50 for a game? 20-something guys don't have the financial burdens and so can spend a bit more.

What they obviously didn't bank on is that OAPs would be so interested in video games and they have a ton of expendable income.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Fall for what? Mario and Zelda have varied gameplay control and elements. To be successful, you need to do things in sequence with proper timing while avoiding obstacles and enemies. You can avoid it all you like, but it's true.

Of course but the difficulty is pretty low and even if there are tricky bits, the overall presentation is pretty weak but like I say, it's subjective based on experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

It's marketing. It's all marketing.

If it improves gameplay then it has to be more than purely marketing. You'd probably say that the Wii-mote improves gameplay whereas I think it hinders it and I would say it's a marketing gimmick so I guess it's subjective too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat View Post

Too much work, I'd imagine, and the Wii probably doesn't have the horsepower to make it look like they want.

It surely couldn't be more work than what's required to develop for the PS3. But it's interesting that you mention about looks. I agree with you that it would look pretty bad on the Wii but doesn't that mean the Wii doesn't do it for you? You want to play the Orange Box but it's not available for whatever reason and yet it is for the 360 and PS3.

If software defines a platform then a lack of certain extremely popular games has implications for the platform itself if for whatever reason, it cannot deliver what is needed for the content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster

I know this isn't at all relevant, but I just had to post it:

I don't think they'll do all that badly. They've made a few big mistakes but they can pull it back:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22263333/
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › The Wii: does it do it for you? How much longer until it's passed by?