First year Apple TV sales fall below expectations - Page 5

For AppleTV to become successful it definitely needs more umph. HD video would be a start, but the "killer app" is either DVR, or Video Rentals in HD. Or maybe both...

Unfortunately You Tube have been sucking up 1/4 of ALL THE INTERNET TRAFFIC for the past year, and companies like ATT and Sprint are not keen on others using their network to play videos and sell spot advertising. They figure that Google has plenty of money to pay for bandwidth. Net result (sorry for the unintended pun) is that Apple will not be able to make HD Rental a profitable idea anytime soon. Sure we all want $1.99 downloadable video rentals, but the bandwidth alone would cost a lot. If Apple were smart they would come out with a new DVR/Rental Apple TV in January and just take the loss on the HD rentals for a few years until the price comes down. Hey they have $15 BILLION in cash reserves. They can afford a slight loss for an iTunes type monopoly on the HD video rental business. After all consumers are still gun shy over the whole VHS/Beta HDDVD/Blueray thing and no one wants to spend several hundred dollars on the wrong format, AGAIN.

Look for Apple to make a move soon...

apple tv won't make it unless apple sorts out the problems with it. i had mine replaced twice and even the second replacement only managed to show up once in itunes... but never was able to sync. and that was with a copper cable from my mac to the apple tv. finally gave up and through it in the closet.

people are disenchanted with itunes video and movies for 2 reasons. one is the dearth of movies available. 3 times i've gone out to look for a movie i wanted, most recently troy. not there. secondly, not everyone wants to buy the movie, i don't necessarily want to own every movie that i watch. if they do a rental business thru itunes that might work, but only if they get the problems with apple tv sorted out so people can watch the rental on their plasma.

Well well.

The AppleTV, in my opinion didn't fail. What failed is iTunes video. The reasons are well known to everyone and I don't feel the need to repeat them here.

What I would like to know is:
- Apple mentioned, in a quarterly results conference call, that they are splitting revenues of AppleTV over a year in order to provide "continuosly added new features". Where are these?
- What are the plans, besides YouTube (!!!) with regards of IPTV and the AppleTV? If Apple cannot close deals to sell content, why can't they close a deal to stream it (ads included) on the ATV?

I own an AppleTV. So far I love what it does, but being outside the US (or UK or, new, Canada) I cannot even complain about the video quality since there's NONE of it...

AppleTV was my best option because:
- in Europe there is nothing like TiVo (at least to my knowledge)
- I wanted to listen to music from my living room with the least possible number of cables
- I wanted to watch the pics I have taken on something bigger than a 13" monitor (own a MacBook)
- I wanted to watch the videos I SHOT with my High Def Sony Handycam without having to purchase an HD-DVD or BluRay burner (for my mac, if it even exists) and player. AppleTV allows me to edit everything on my Mac, store it on an external HD and then stream it or store it locally on the ATV for playback.

I miss video content (particularly rental), but only if it is in HD.

AppleTV was meant for early adopters and all of these own HDTVs, of that you can be sure.

Apple, please show us some love. Add Widgets to the ATV, a iTunes store for the AppleTV (why else did you ask, in the latest SW revision, to provide my login and nationality??), and open the friggin USB port (for "diagnostics", do you seriuosly think we buy that?) for: Elgato EyeTV tuner and recorder (reverse stream back to the computer for extended storage) AND/OR external Harddisk drive.

When you are at it, allow us to play DivX. You know better than anyone that Handbrake and others are used a lot. Spare us the hassle. You know we get our video content even now that there is no NBC on iTunes (you also know where we get that from). Please spare us the extra step of reincoding: you don't have any studios to please now...

Edit:

the single best thing Apple could do is create a home server. That would be great. Even Microsoft understood that... People are storing a lot of digital content (partly purchased, partly created). They (WE) are running out of space...
Apple, create a centralized, 2TB, AppleTV home server. You'll sell millions...

You don't think true discrete surround sound is a needed feature? On a box that only connects to HDTVs? (and yes, it's an issue with the aTV operating system and not the hardware itself, but that's still a limitation of the box that can't be fixed with any content, iTunes store or otherwise)

If I could do that I'd be much closer to buying one of these. Right now I watch tons of content using my iPod as a tiny portable aTV. I'd love to rip all my dvds to hard drive, but no way to play those back with surround sound.

With HD screens and disk players finally starting to sell, I also think the missing ability to play back 1080 content hurts appeal for many potential buyers as well.


Who says the two are mutually exclusive? I definitely agree that it's more of a perceived issue than a real one. I just think people make purchasing decisions based on perceived issues (meaning it IS a deal breaker). They want to know that they're getting the best, even if they can't use all the features yet. Especially when the box is $299, if it were selling for $99 I'm sure people would be much more willing to forgive it for not having the best specs.

Personally, I'm holding off any HD purchases as long as possible, mainly until screens are dirt cheap, the disk format battle is clearly settled, and/or my current TV dies (which could be years from now). But when I finally make that jump, there's no way I'm buying anything but the highest resolution. By that time I doubt anything but 1080p will be available.

I've never bought the whole "merge with mini" thing. One of the biggest things holding back the aTV from selling well is the price, it probably needs to hit $199 or even $149 to make any kind of dent. Switching it to mini hardware would just double the price, and they'd sell even fewer than they are now.

(double post)

TVs are huge these days so you need hi-res files. Even DVDs aren't really good enough for modern TVs. iTunes Store will need to go back to the cinema reels and remaster.

Also I heard the Apple tv only supports 2 speakers not 6. I don't know if that's true or not but everyone has 6 speakers these days.

The Apple TV is the type of gear that is going to be purchased by those that are tech savvy. People that would buy Apple TV -- for the most part -- are not going to be watching TV on something that is 780p, or at least not by choice. So if you have a TV that is 1080p/i, then why would you hook the Apple TV to it, which only has video in 780p. I also think that's the reason why the video segment of the iTunes store hasn't done well. We're in the world of High Definition, and Apple needs to sell HD content in its store.

I love Apple to death, and I think they are the most innovative brand out there. However, on this issue, I think they are behind the curve. They need to catch up to what consumer taste is right now. People that buy tech are buying 40"+ TVs in 1080p/i, and they are buying blue-ray and HD-DVD.

Add DVR (tivo like) and streaming video via itunes and it will take off.

I *love* my Apple TV ....
... but I only started loving it after I modified it.


To me, a tiny, silent, media-center with a cool interface, running Unix and with 270-megabit wireless is simply an awesome bargain.

Being able to browse a shared media server, then wirelessly stream HD Video from a fileshare is, for me, really useful.

But the device, as shipped, is crippled. I think Apple are so worried by appearing to be the pirate's friend, that they hobbled the device. The result was a device which only made sense when used with iTunes. And yet there is no direct iTunes interface on the box, and many territories have no iTunes TV or Movies sales.

C.

You just made my day (sort of). At least I now know the AppleTV I own is CAPABLE of doing the stuff I'd like it to do (on the hardware side). Not being a hacker is tough though, since I have to wait for "infinite loop" to wake up and allow me to use the device to it's full potential.

Question: by High Def, do you mean 720p or 1080i/p?

Thanks to your post I know the AppleTV does not "need" a hardware revision to perform. This gives me hope that a software update might fix a couple of things (or three or four or five...).

Relaunch the ATV as the Mac Nano with leopard screen sharing enabled by default so that consumers can do what they want with it and the existing hardware will be insanely popular at the same price point!

WHOLEHEARTEDLY YES!!!!!

All of the terrestrial channels in the UK offer completely FREE content on demand. It's time-limited. In order to do that they had to use Microsoft DRM because nobody else offers time-limited control rights management.

Apple isn't on MY side. They want to sell me content which is available free to Windows users. If they were on my side they'd be offering the content providers a way to provide FREE content to me, with restrictions. I really don't care if the content explodes 30 days after downloading if it's free.

eg. Channel 4 On Demand - (4oD) http://www.channel4.com/4od/index.html

From their help page...

"Will I be able to access 4oD on my Mac?
Unfortunately not at the launch of 4oD.

This is an industry-wide issue caused because the accepted Digital Rights Management (DRM) system used to protect online video content, which is required by our content owners, is not compatible with Apple Mac hardware and software. The closed DRM system used by Apple is not currently available for licence by third parties and there is no other Mac-compatible DRM solution which meets the protection requirements of content owners. Unfortunately, we are therefore unable to offer 4oD content to Mac users at this stage."

4oD launched over a year ago, before AppleTV.

4oD also does 'rental' movies at £1.99. Apple charges £1.89 for a single TV show episode. They've even got the balls to try and sell us crap like Ugly Betty at £1.89 an episode when it's shown on TV twice a week for free here and 99p an episode on 4oD for Windows users.

Conversely, just because something has been decreed as illegal, doesn't automatically make it wrong.

From a moral (rather than legal) standpoint, I don't personally see anything questionable about converting content, that have already I paid for, from DVDs into a more portable format, given that I am not redistributing the resulting file to other people who haven't paid for it like I have.

The fact that the consequences of doing so may be dire (depending on the jurisdiction I live in) might make such action against my rational self-interest (or, if I were doing it, it might be against my rational self-interest for me to to draw attention to that fact). But I certainly wouldn't feel any moral compulsion to make any amends to the content producers for having done it.

Agreed. Apple has never broken out the sales figures for the AppleTV. They may have sold a million or they may not have. Forester doesn't really know either way, so they are guessing.

No, it's not 'existing agreements' as Apple has none with UK content providers. All the content sold here is US based, and twice as expensive on iTunes than on other services.


Yes, Apple is the problem. No, it's not making DRM worse. It's an alternative. It also gets us FREE content.


There isn't one because Microsoft won't do it and neither will Apple as they want to sell you content, not rent it. If Apple is working on doing rentals right, they're over a year behind schedule. All the TV stations here have it done already.

Actually, the video store seems to be doing pretty well, it's the *movie* sales that aren't as good.

I saw a number recently that the iTunes store had over 90% of the video download market, including television. When you look at movies only, the iTunes store drops all the way down to about 40%. But that's still way ahead of the #2 competitor.

Is the video store, especially with movies, lagging behind the music store? Definitely. But is anyone else even close, much less doing better? It sure doesn't look like it.

Part of the problem is the aTV, part of the problem is lack of movie selection. But the biggest thing holding it back just seems to be the fact that the video download market is still in its infancy - *nobody* is selling a ton of movie downloads yet.


OR it's very possible that the TV studios offered apple their content only under the condition that they not include DVR or DVD ripping in iTunes or other apple products. People seem to forget that apple only gets content if the studios allow it. If you were in SJ's shoes, would you put in DVR if it meant all the TV and movie content providers yanked their material?

I agree, but the problem still remains that Apple can't promote that as a means of getting AppleTV content. The way Apple works now, they can't depend on viral marketing to get the sales that they want. I think relying on viral marketing is a part of why the other makers don't have much market share.

I don't know if the Media Center Extenders fall prey to this limitation, but I think the biggest issue for AppleTV really is content in two ways - access to a good variety and quantity, as well as making it convenient to get in an on-demand-ish way. The top-down approach in extending the computer to the living room doesn't really fit very well with how people watch TV, the direction for the future is PVR and on-demand. AppleTV doesn't currently do either. They can at least do something like on-demand requests without having to go back to the computer.

I would hope Apple fixed it with a software update rather than screwing the people that already bought it.

1st: Software update to add iTunes Store on the unit itself. This way from my couch I could log onto iTunes and download my favorite TV show.

2nd: Widgets, like weather, traffic, stocks, movie times

3rd: Plays more video options

4th: No more syncing, just let me dump what I want on it.

-----

When I go into the Apple store and look at the Apple TV movies, I can't believe how bad they look on those beautiful Sony Bravia TV's. Until they get Hi-Def or even good standard def on ATV, why bother?

I was actually unimpressed with apple tv when it first came out but oddly enough I ended up understanding how it fits my needs. I'm gonna get one in jan, I'd never pay full price though I'll grab one off the refurb store.

To be honest, when I go into a store and see HDDVD or bluray movies playing on an HDTV, I can't believe how bad they look either.

I saw HD movies playing at a Sony store and the picture looked totally awesome to me. It's definitly on the top of my wish list.

1080i, which represents the majority of HD programming (in the US, ABC, ESPN, and Fox seem to be the major holdouts), can scale very well to 1080p. On the other hand, (down)scaling to 720p would result in loss of resolution. Granted, most 1080i programmings are in fact 1440x1080 (rather than full 1920x1080), but upconverted 1080p still offers far greater detail than Pioneer PDP-5080's 1365x768 can resolve.


Most is relative. Right now, there are more 720p sets in use than 1080p. But manufacturers are introducing more 1080p sets than 720p. By next year, 1080p will represent majority of HDTV sets sold.

Perhaps Apple will update Apple TV with 1080p next year, assuming it doesn't get canned altogether. While dearth of HD contents (1080p or even 720p) is frustrating, 1080p capability can help Apple TV display more detailed photos. And if improved with native support for discrete multi-channel audio capability, can be marketed toward home theater enthusiasts.

That said, most folks in the US are not capable of downloading HD contents in few hours. An average pseudo-480p stereo 2-hour movies on iTunes Store is 1.5 GB. At roughly 3 times the resolution, 720p with 5.1-channel audio will balloon to 5 GB. And 1080p will be nearly 15 GB in size.

For this reason, I think Apple TV needs to integrate with HD DVD or Blu-Ray drive (either standard or as add-on) and/or offer DVR capability.

Availability: Temporarily out of stock. Order now and we'll deliver when available. We'll e-mail you with an estimated delivery date as soon as we have more information. Your credit card will not be charged until we ship the item.
(Amazon.com 11-DEC-2007)

I wouldn't use that info as a gauge for anything. Amazon never carried both models. Its no surprise to me that they ran out of stock on the low end model.

Why on earth would you want six speakers? Do you have six ears?

Because HRTF can't possibly compensate for all seating positions.

While it's debatable exactly how many are optimal, there's no question that more than two generally sound better than two. The DVD standard is 5.1 (six speakers, with a few in 6.1).

Even without turning your head, you can perceive front/back positioning. When you take into account that people do move their heads when they listen and that generally there will be multiple people sitting in a room, requiring a bigger sweet spot, more than two speakers are definitely needed to create a 3d sound field.

I just upgraded my home theatre to surround sound, and even with just four speakers so far (left, right, left and right surround), it's a huge improvement. I'm debating the subwoofer and center speaker, so far I'm undecided but leaning a bit toward getting a center since I can hear that with my current setup, I'm not getting a solid center image.

If you really want to know why six speakers are needed, just find someone with a decent 5.1 system and pop in a DVD of a big action flick. Switch between surround and stereo, and the benefit of having more speakers should be immediately obvious.

I was pretty excited when AppleTV was annonced but not anymore.

Here in Asia, we have so many alternatives machine that can play whatever format you throw at it and we are not even abit concern about whatever itunes offer because mostly we cannot even buy anything off itunes at all.

Check out equipment such as by Sarotech which can play DivX, Xvid, h264 etc, stream video from computer and there are even models by other manufacturer (korean mostly) that allow the unit be a Network Storage, it is selling so hot here in Singapore that you have to pre-order.\

Did I mentioned that almost all of them play HD video today and not tomorrow. Also, they are sold without HDD so you can put whatever size HDD you desired. I see some foreigners buying it and putting in 750GB HDD, mentioning something like they got 1000s of movie to load inside (DivX i guess). I can't even imagine trancoding so many video just to be able to use AppleTV to watch.

Anything that does not play DivX/Xvid movie, forget about getting it at all. I even changed my DVD players because Samsung launch a DVD HDD recorder that I can used to store my DivX/Xvid files inside the HDD!

As for YouTube, what's that? Why u want to watch such low quality video on a TV?

No, but your two ears can tell when the sound is coming from the rear/side and front (e.g., airplane flying from left front to right rear).

That's ok, I've only got one sofa.

I have to say I find those huge home cinema setups embarrassing whenever I see them in someone's house when I visit. "What, you've not got better things to do than watch TV?" is my immediate thought.

My home cinema setup is an old 21" TV I bought in 1997. I didn't even buy a DVD player till they were £17 in Tesco. Can't stand them. No satellite, no cable. It's plugged in to an old Rotel amp I bought in the 80s.

TV - rots brains.

Why on earth would you only have one TV? Do you have one eye?

Snobbery aside, you don't watch movies either? If TV and DVDs are so horrible, why do you own them at all?


FTW.

I'm not convinced those stats are going to play out. TV refresh cycles are long and the 720p sets here are half the price (don't know about the US). Without a valid reason for 1080p I think the general public will stick with the cheaper 720p sets for HD cable/satellite programming. 1080p will be lucky to get 20% of the flat panel market.


Look to the torrent sites to see the actual figures. They're getting 720p at 2.5 to 3.5Mbps which looks fine.

McD

OR, Apple could just give us a damn mid-tower for the same cost as this mythical Apple TV with BD, DVR, 5.1 blah blah blah and we could do it ourselves in OSX.
Here are the real issues:
1: The AppleTV is not ahead of it's time. It's lack of features put the CONCEPT ahead of the specs it actually provides (as in, it would have been a killer product if...)
2: The Mini is similarly crippled. It is underpowered, and underfeatured. To be a killer machine (in lieu of the Apple TV or the mid-tower), it would need full support of HD outputs (video, audio, optional BD or HD-DVD).
3: A mid-tower that has standard PCI/PCI-Express slots would enable users to take care of the above two but Apple as usual, has it's own mind as to what it will allow consumers to do and not to do.

With these 3 points in mind, why should ANYONE want to consider any current Apple product as an HTPC contender?

You've never beem to a movie?

Aegis, just because you pride yourself on that doesn't mean it's right for anyone else. I don't watch many films, but when I do, I like to enjoy the experience. you may not have noticed, the the days of B/W 4:3 movie screens with mono are long over.

Most new models here are now 1080p, and prices have dropped a good deal. I suspect that anything less will be pretty much gone by the time the Feb 2009 changeover is here, except, perhaps, in the smallest sizes.

In the US, the price difference between 720p and 1080p sets isn't as dramatic. Few example:

Sharp LC-37D62U (1080p 37" LCD): $1599
Sharp LC-37D43U (720p 37" LCD): $1299

Sony KDL-40V2500 (1080p 40" LCD): $1699
Sony KDL-40S3000 (720p 40" LCD): $1499

Toshiba 42HL167 (1080p 42" LCD): $1699.99
Toshiba 42HL67 (720p 42" LCD): $1399.99

The price difference is there, but it is rapidly shrinking (was about twice a year ago). By next year, the difference will be negligible.

Even more interesting is that most makers have either stopped or will soon stop selling 720p sets for larger sizes. Sharp no longer makes 720p for 42" or larger. Sony and Toshiba have either stopped or will soon stop selling 720p for 46" or larger.