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Briefly: More sightings of mysterious metallic grey MacBooks - Page 3

post #81 of 117
I think you guys are missing boat if you think this is all about one very thin notebook. I think there will be several MacBook announcements a month from today at Macworld. I think there will be the aluminized MacBook completing Apple's transition away from polycarbonate plastic. I think there will be the MacBook Pro updates with design modifications, specifically revolving around the keyboard and the trackpad. And finally, I think the "one more thing" will be the MacBook thin. That's my gut sense of what's going to happen. Apple has used many Macworlds to announce new notebooks — the Titanium PowerBook G4, the 12- and 17-inch aluminum PowerBook, and the MacBook Pro were all announced in January at Macworld. Things are looking good in this regard.
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You think Im an arrogant [expletive] who thinks hes above the law, and I think youre a slime bucket who gets most of his facts wrong. Steve Jobs
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post #82 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

The casing still has to be rigid, independent of the frame. The case still carries a lot of stress because its the interface between the frame and the user's hands (I know, because mine is cracked in several places).

You can fix that by using an internal skeleton though. That's what Apple does in lots of it's products from the iPod to the MacBookPro. Trust me, there's minimal structural qualities to the outer casing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

If you look at the MacBook it has quite thick plastic (see the back near the vent). If the machine was a lot lighter you could thin that down a bit, but if you're going for the thinnest possible, plastic just isn't going to cut it.

Polycarbonate plastic is much lighter than aluminium, but less rigid hence having to use more of it in the outer casing. When you've got physical constraints such as 9.5mm thick drives, backlights and full travel keyboards, it's really not a bad choice, particularly in a laptop. Aluminium strikes me as a stupid material for a laptop since it suffers plastic defamation far too easily (ie. it dents or bends and doesn't bend back). Apple's use of aluminium seems to me to be more as a large heatsink that is no longer of importance since the Intel switch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

Titanium is very good, and works work well, but it's expensive. Carbon fibre even better and more expensive.

Carbon fibre is cheaper than Titanium, at least in bicycle manufacture. Carbon fibre sheets would be very cheap to manufacture. It's a horribly unpleasant material though.

I'd love to see someone using steel in a laptop or even better, stainless steel. It's much more rigid than any of the materials above, excellent impact resistance and can be thinner than any of them for the same strength. If you wanted to make the thinnest laptop, steel is the material of choice. However, it's very dense, so it'd weigh significantly more. I'd imagine it'd play hell with wireless transmission too.

Personally, a robust sub notebook with a little more heft to it would be reassuringly nice to own though.
post #83 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by gloss View Post

Actually, to match the $1299 Macbook's specs, the XPS costs $1399. I just worked it out. =)

This is with a 2.2ghz C2D, 1GB of RAM, 802.11N, Bluetooth, and Vista Ultimate (since there are no 'stripped' versions of Leopard). We're not even talking about the huge difference in the quality of included software.

Your kidding right?

Just checked apple.com and the French store. Lowest Macbook lines up as:

* 2.0GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
* 1GB memory
* 80GB hard drive1
* Combo drive
* Intel Integrated graphics
* 10.5
* Wifi
* BT

- 1049 Euro

Just went to dell.fr and looked at the 1099 Euro XPS...

* 2.0Ghz Core 2 Duo
* 2 Gig RAM
* 160 Gig HDD
* Superdrive
* Geforce 8400M GS
* Wifi
* BT

Including Vista Ultimate is kind of not cricket, as it is really not needed. I do concede that iPhoto and a few of the other iApps do add some value, but you have to buy .Mac for the real benefits, so again you bump up the price of the Mac.

You get iTunes, Safari, VLC etc on the PC, and there are some really decent iPhoto clones and things out there, so it is not that hard to adapt.

All in all, the Dell is better in every department. And have you used a Dell recently? They wear much better than the MBP, let alone a Macbook.

Looking at it, even the 950 Euro XPS is better than the Macbook...

I don't see how they can compare at the moment, and that is coming from someone who used to work for Apple!
post #84 of 117
I was pricing at the American store.

For $1099 here you get:

1.5ghz C2D Processor
Vista Home Premium
1GB RAM
120GB HD
DVD Burner
Intel GMA-3100x Graphics
802.11a/g WiFi (extra for 802.11n, as the Macbooks have)
No Bluetooth
A 37 watt-hour battery (compared to 55 watt-hour for the Macbook)

Add in the Bluetooth, the WiFi-n, the better battery, the matching processor, and Vista Ultimate (for comparable OS ability), and you get $1399 (with $100 off, so $1299, matching the mid-range Macbook exactly). Apparently the French Apple Tax is considerably higher than in the US.

And my friend has a M1330. It's cute, but the heat it puts off surprised me.
post #85 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Apple's use of aluminium seems to me to be more as a large heatsink that is no longer of importance since the Intel switch.

How so? My regular Macbook spins up its fans to 4500rpm with very little load which is noisy, CPU and Northbridge temps are always close to 60ºC, and the surface under the palms gets noticeably warm. I have observed the same characteristics in other Macbooks.

I'm uncomfortable with a machine having to "try so hard" in the course of normal operation. It could really use more passive cooling.
Quote:
Carbon fibre is cheaper than Titanium, at least in bicycle manufacture. Carbon fibre sheets would be very cheap to manufacture. It's a horribly unpleasant material though.

I'd love to see someone using steel in a laptop or even better, stainless steel. It's much more rigid than any of the materials above, excellent impact resistance and can be thinner than any of them for the same strength. If you wanted to make the thinnest laptop, steel is the material of choice. However, it's very dense, so it'd weigh significantly more. I'd imagine it'd play hell with wireless transmission too.

Personally, a robust sub notebook with a little more heft to it would be reassuringly nice to own though.

Yup! 11" widescreen, external optical drive, steel. Even if made a lot sturdier, I think it would weigh less than a current Macbook.

I'd prefer the external steel surface textured to provide more cooling area. And how about heatpiping some of the heat from the CPU/GPU directly into the shell to cut down on the amount of mechanical cooling needed?
post #86 of 117
Steel weighs 3x as much as aluminum. It's also not as good a conductor of heat. That's why good stainless pots and pans have thick aluminum inserts to distribute heat from the burner.
post #87 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Steel weighs 3x as much as aluminum. It's also not as good a conductor of heat. That's why good stainless pots and pans have thick aluminum inserts to distribute heat from the burner.

Doh, forgot that.

Okay, what if the sides and edges were steel and the flat surfaces textured aluminum? The flats practically never dent, and the texture would hide scratches for those folks who care while maximizing heat conductivity.

Hard anodization can make aluminum practically unscratchable, but it wrecks heat conductivity so I don't see it as a good idea for computers at all.
post #88 of 117
Do you think that the Mac Book Pro update might get delayed due to the debut of MB thin at the MacWorld ?

Any Comments ??

http://whygetmacbookpro.blogspot.com/
post #89 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

How so? My regular Macbook spins up its fans to 4500rpm with very little load which is noisy, CPU and Northbridge temps are always close to 60ºC, and the surface under the palms gets noticeably warm. I have observed the same characteristics in other Macbooks.

The aluminium MacBookPro design dates from the G4 days when they were running hotter than today's Intel CPU. I'm sure there's been other advances in thermal design too making it less important now that the external enclosure acts as a big heatsink.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Steel weighs 3x as much as aluminum. It's also not as good a conductor of heat. That's why good stainless pots and pans have thick aluminum inserts to distribute heat from the burner.

Steel (particularly a nice one like we use in the bike industry) is about 4 times stiffer than Aluminium and almost twice as stiff as carbon fibre. You don't have to use the same amount of steel as aluminium so it wouldn't be 3 times heavier as a completed object. Really, if you wanted stiff and thin, steel is it.
post #90 of 117
Hi there.
I'm about to make the so called 'switch' and therefore very interested in everything that has to do with Macs.
Just thought I'd chime in with some modest wishes for the upcoming MacWorld:
  • MacBook's: Superdrive in base-model; 120GB HD as well; price drop to € 900,-* for the base-model; aluminium only if sufficiently scratch-resistant, otherwise stick to polycarbonate; LED-backlit LCD's; CHOICE between glossy and matte LCD
  • MacBookPro's: Redesign to some extend, same magnetic lid as the standard MB; improved heat-management; improved scratch-resistance; RAM and HD upgrades made as easy as in the current MBs
  • NEW MacBookPro: 13,3" LED backlit LCD (matte or glossy), high density LCD as an option; dedicated graphics; again: metal casing, scratch-resistant, not neccessarily aluminium; CHOICE between SSD and ordinary HD; either internal Superdrive, or external solution hooked to FW800 AND included in the box; CPUs same as MB; RAM and HD upgrades... ; priced between MB and MBpro around € 1500,-

A few days ago I personally experienced the difference in WiFi reception between a MBpro and a MB. As to this I think there is a simple answer, though some people may not like it:
Encase the antenna in plastic, just like it has been done with the iPod touch. IMO it is not bad design either, Maybe the top-left corner of the MB could sport a tiny piece of black plastic, designed nicely...

Other things that I would wish for (not so modest):
  • capacitive touchpads in the whole lineup, slightly bigger, perfectly implemented in the OS, showing you where you touch with each of your fingers (those dots Apple used in commercials for the interface of the iPhone)
  • an Apple tablet, slate-type; 11" LCD; capacitive touchscreen; SSD with a minimum of 64GB; priced below the 15" MBpro!


Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Steel (particularly a nice one like we use in the bike industry) is about 4 times stiffer than Aluminium and almost twice as stiff as carbon fibre. You don't have to use the same amount of steel as aluminium so it wouldn't be 3 times heavier as a completed object. Really, if you wanted stiff and thin, steel is it.

That one's got me interested. What kind of alloy is it? Or else, how is it treated to achieve such qualities? Got a link, I'm curious.

And your argument about a little more weight in favour of a sturdier device is something I agree with perfectly.


--- --- ---
* Please don't compare EURO-prices to dollar prices, it always makes me cry because we pay more for the same tech. Apply your US pricing schemes.
post #91 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by mangochutney View Post

That one's got me interested. What kind of alloy is it? Or else, how is it treated to achieve such qualities? Got a link, I'm curious.

Just general bog standard steel is around 3 times stiffer than aluminium. Most steels are equally stiff. There's a list on wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young's...oximate_values

However, something nice like Reynolds 853 (or even the drool worthy 953 stainless version) has a tensile strength about 50% more than cheaper stuff like 4130 ChroMo steel. Stength to weight ratio on 853 approaches Titanium but it's stiffer.

When you're building bicycles, you're not generally worried about how big in diameter the tubes are though so lighter, less stiff, less strong materials like carbon fibre and aluminium can be used and even though the tubes are larger in order to maintain rigidity, they usually weigh less than steel or titanium. Aluminium has to be alloyed with other metals otherwise it's way too brittle to have any kind of life or you have to build a frame with so little give in it that the frame doesn't flex at all. Think of the difference between a Coke can and a Heinz Beans can. The coke can is lighter but less stiff. If you wanted the same stiffness from steel it still wouldn't be as light as aluminium though. The coke can on the other hand to be as stiff as steel would be very thick.

Some of the Reynolds 853 tubes are as thick as 0.5mm in the middle yet you're talking about a mountain bike that'll take all the abuse given out by an average trail rider and it's stronger than much thicker aluminium tubed bikes and suffers less from dents and dings from rocks.

http://www.reynoldscycles.co.uk/steel853.html

Unusually, it also hardens in air after welding which means you don't have to go reinforcing your weld areas with gussets, giving more weight savings.

For such an old material, there's still advances in alloying happening that don't quite count it out yet.

Again, it'd be an interesting choice for laptop use and I'd guess steel's other characteristics over-rule the material benefits.

With aluminium there's also a huge amount of work making stiffer and more fatigue resistant alloys which is why every year bikes seem to get lighter and more reliable. 6069 Alumnium in the last few years has pushed what you can do with aluminium to places I'd not thought possible.

I don't know what grade aluminium Apple use but to me it doesn't seem like they've got a bike nut looking after their materials choice.
post #92 of 117
Thanks aegisdesign.
I knew some of it, because my father is an engineer at Opel and have a few insights on car-production, but that I didn't know.
Also I falsely thought of units like Rockwell, which I know a bit of, because I was interested in knives a couple of years ago, but that's a completely different thing.


Quote:
I don't know what grade aluminium Apple use but to me it doesn't seem like they've got a bike nut looking after their materials choice.

probably not, but with any luck Jonny Ive reads this and starts thinking
post #93 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

The aluminium MacBookPro design dates from the G4 days when they were running hotter than today's Intel CPU. I'm sure there's been other advances in thermal design too making it less important now that the external enclosure acts as a big heatsink.

Such as...? When the Macbook doesn't keep itself cool nearly as well and quietly as the iBook did, it certainly seems that those thermal design advances aren't being used or aren't keeping up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

I don't know what grade aluminium Apple use but to me it doesn't seem like they've got a bike nut looking after their materials choice.

Industrial computer types would be useful too. Overengineered products are engineered just right.

Is there a reason why e.g. the next mini could not be stripped of mechanical cooling entirely in favor of the shell heatsink system? Then it could be air sealed, immune to dust, and silent. With a long-lifed SSD it would last practically forever without maintenance. No one expects high performance from it, anyway.
post #94 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

Such as...? When the Macbook doesn't keep itself cool nearly as well and quietly as the iBook did, it certainly seems that those thermal design advances aren't being used or aren't keeping up.Industrial computer types would be useful too. Overengineered products are engineered just right.

Is there a reason why e.g. the next mini could not be stripped of mechanical cooling entirely in favor of the shell heatsink system? Then it could be air sealed, immune to dust, and silent. With a long-lifed SSD it would last practically forever without maintenance. No one expects high performance from it, anyway.

SSD being life-long? Wow. With all their benefits life-long [a spurious label that doesn't quantify time, but a general rule of what has or hasn't surpassed some accepted measure of time] isn't something one can claim to be a benefit. You don't claim that on disk based drives.

Can I upgrade an SSD?

My problem with SSD is that computers need to have an upgrade path, not just on BTO, but after BTO.
post #95 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Can I upgrade an SSD?

That all depends on the approach that Apple takes.
Quote:
My problem with SSD is that computers need to have an upgrade path, not just on BTO, but after BTO.

I'm not trying to discount your need to upgrade but do need to point out that disk drives, at least of the portable nature, are not that reliable. Far more laptop drives are replaced due to a failure of some sort than the need to upgrade.

That is one consideration but in the case of built in SSD you have to realize that every time the "drive" goes bad you effectively upgrade the whole computer. A solder in drive that is. When the cost of the "drive" is a significant component of the overall cost of the machine it becomes not such a bad deal. I don't see apple offering logic board upgrades but maybe as Apple care replacements.

The other end of the spectrum is that Apple or ASUS should be able to get the costs of these devices down to the point where replacement of the whole unit makes sense upon failure. Its the old question of does it make sense to spend $100 on a $300 computer that is three years old. Some will of course say yes but others will look at what that $100 will contribute to in a new machine. The same issue arises in the Pod market. many people with 3 year old iPods must be looking at the new tech. with some interest these days.

Thanks
Dave
post #96 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

If we're talking about a laptop, if you have no keyboard you have no trackpad.I can edit with pixel accuracy with a mouse. With my finger I can't see anything under the 50 square pixels its covering. Having an decent sized on-screen keyboard would seriously reduce the screen space and still would not be as accurate as a mechanical keyboard.

Now Apple makes touchscreen tablet devices with a virtual keyboard running OS X and it can make bigger versions of that with more functionality. But the technology is not going to scale to what we now use as a Mac. It would not be practical. It's a stupid idea, no matter how old you are.

Apple took out a patent for a new software multitouch sensing application that allows it to "see" if you are mimicking handwriting instead of pointing with your fingers. In other words, the editing "tip" is in front of your fingers ... a virtual stylus. So you could edit with pixel accuracy that way.

I'm guessing that a touchscreen device canted to 20 degrees using a pop-out magnesium or aluminum stand would be quite simple to accurately touch-type on. With tactile keys, tactile and audio feedback.... Screen size would be compromised, but as long as you can stretch the screen like the iPhone allows (an update of Spaces?) that won't be a problem. Need to type a six-paragraph argument into a "quick reply" box like the one on this page? Hit Quick Reply, then zoom in with a three-finger "minority report" gesture and flick the entry box up to the top part of the screen with a two-finger scroll. Rest your fingers on the bottom half of the screen, and the keyboard "floats" into view as you feel the tactile buttons rise up almost imperceptibly under your fingers. Type away with tactile and audible feedback.

Need to copy something from another post? Pull your fingers away, and the keyboard disappears. Two-finger scroll to the text you need, double-tap with one finger on the text and drag with the other finger to highlight the text, then "peel" a copy off with two, three, or four fingers. It remains floating on the side of the screen as you scroll back down to the text entry box, and you grab it with a few fingers and drag it into the text entry box. You can leave the copied text up, minimize it to one side of the screen, close it and delete it altogether, or save it into a quick TextEdit or Stickies file. Just as fast as typing something on a conventional laptop, except that you don't have to switch between the trackpad and the keyboard, and you can orient the screen any way you want.

It won't completely replace the traditional keyboard and mouse just like the mouse didn't completely replace the keyboard. But it can mimic a keyboard and it can sure mimic a mouse.
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post #97 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

That all depends on the approach that Apple takes.


I'm not trying to discount your need to upgrade but do need to point out that disk drives, at least of the portable nature, are not that reliable. Far more laptop drives are replaced due to a failure of some sort than the need to upgrade.

That is one consideration but in the case of built in SSD you have to realize that every time the "drive" goes bad you effectively upgrade the whole computer. A solder in drive that is. When the cost of the "drive" is a significant component of the overall cost of the machine it becomes not such a bad deal. I don't see apple offering logic board upgrades but maybe as Apple care replacements.

The other end of the spectrum is that Apple or ASUS should be able to get the costs of these devices down to the point where replacement of the whole unit makes sense upon failure. Its the old question of does it make sense to spend $100 on a $300 computer that is three years old. Some will of course say yes but others will look at what that $100 will contribute to in a new machine. The same issue arises in the Pod market. many people with 3 year old iPods must be looking at the new tech. with some interest these days.

Thanks
Dave

Here is a claim by Samsung

http://www.samsungssd.com/what_is_ssd/reliability.html



Not to pee on their claims but that 700,000 hours for the 2.5 HDD ~= 79 years really equates to obsolescence every 3 or 4 years. The claim that Solid State is at 2 Million hours doesn't mean a damn thing to me.

Improper charge across the circuit where the SSD resides and the entire drive is obsolete.
post #98 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post


Not to pee on their claims but that 700,000 hours for the 2.5 HDD ~= 79 years really equates to obsolescence every 3 or 4 years. The claim that Solid State is at 2 Million hours doesn't mean a damn thing to me.

Improper charge across the circuit where the SSD resides and the entire drive is obsolete.

I'm not sure what Samsung is trying to claim there. My experience is that regular laptop hard drives are not that reliable. Which is what i was trying to point out in my previous posting. Todays hard drives need to be implemented as replaceable modules simply because they are not that reliable and are subject to damage.

Once the issue of mechanical reliability is implemented there is much to be gain from soldering a solid state 'drive' to the mother board. Drive is quoted because in reality it is not a drive but rather an alternative mass storage device. Whether it is Falsh or something else I don't suspect that we will be seeing rotating media drives around that much longer. If flash doesn't replace the drives there are other technologies coming on line.

Dave
post #99 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I'm not sure what Samsung is trying to claim there. My experience is that regular laptop hard drives are not that reliable. Which is what i was trying to point out in my previous posting. Todays hard drives need to be implemented as replaceable modules simply because they are not that reliable and are subject to damage.

I think there's something else though, I don't think dropping chips on a card is that much of an inconvenience or expense. If they offer different capacities, then that means they'd have to track inventory of more varieties of mainboards, which is quite a large board vs the small area the memory chips take. If they offer multiple speed grades, then you could have at least four variations of the same large board. Putting the memory on a card would offer a lot more flexibility for them, I think. If something else on the board goes bad, then they can swap the board without also having to supply more expensive flash chips, just swap that card. As it is, Sandisk offers SSD modules in the same form factors as notebook and subnotebook hard drives.
post #100 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

SSD being life-long? Wow. With all their benefits life-long [a spurious label that doesn't quantify time, but a general rule of what has or hasn't surpassed some accepted measure of time] isn't something one can claim to be a benefit. You don't claim that on disk based drives.

Reading comprehension FTW. I said "with a long-lifed SSD it [the computer] would last practically forever without maintenance". A long-lifed SSD would be a kind of SSD equipped with good, modern wear-leveling and such, achieving a high MTBF. Like long-life batteries last comparatively long before running out. Life-long is something else entirely.
Quote:
Can I upgrade an SSD?

My problem with SSD is that computers need to have an upgrade path, not just on BTO, but after BTO.

That's why they are made in standard form factor a lot of the time. Your problem is with integration, not with SSD technology itself.

Even the current mini design isn't really user-serviceable. Sealed case design would discourage it too, at least by placing strict thermal limits on the components you put in, but at least it would deliver benefits that the half-assed approach does not.

There are all sorts of uses for small, power-thrifty computers that remain completely silent, do not have mechanical failures, do not have thermal failures caused by dust buildup, and do not have electrical failures due to humidity or liquid spillage.
post #101 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Just general bog standard steel is around 3 times stiffer than aluminium. Most steels are equally stiff. There's a list on wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young's...oximate_values

However, something nice like Reynolds 853 (or even the drool worthy 953 stainless version) has a tensile strength about 50% more than cheaper stuff like 4130 ChroMo steel. Stength to weight ratio on 853 approaches Titanium but it's stiffer.

Strength has nothing to do with stiffness.

Quote:
Aluminium has to be alloyed with other metals otherwise it's way too brittle to have any kind of life or you have to build a frame with so little give in it that the frame doesn't flex at all.

All metals have to be alloyed for structual use. You don't use iron, you use steel. You use 3-2.5 titanium, not CP titanium (although Apple reportedly used CP for the original Powerbook G4 Titanium). Aluminum alloys are used mostly because pure aluminum has much lower strength.

Quote:
Some of the Reynolds 853 tubes are as thick as 0.5mm in the middle yet you're talking about a mountain bike that'll take all the abuse given out by an average trail rider and it's stronger than much thicker aluminium tubed bikes and suffers less from dents and dings from rocks.

Resistance to permanent deformation has to do with the elastic limit, not stiffness. A spring or Slinky toy isn't made of stiff material, but it's designed to not exceed the steel's yield strength unless you really stretch it out or bend it too far, so it returns to its original shape.

Quote:
Unusually, it also hardens in air after welding which means you don't have to go reinforcing your weld areas with gussets, giving more weight savings.

A useless property for a laptop enclosure, since you can't weld every square inch of it. Besides, many framebuilders do still use gussets on 853 frames.

Quote:
Again, it'd be an interesting choice for laptop use and I'd guess steel's other characteristics over-rule the material benefits.

It also rusts, so it will need to be protected with durable paint or more likely epoxy powder coat, both of which will reduce heat dissipation. The PB G4 Ti was painted and was fairly easy to scratch.

Quote:
I don't know what grade aluminium Apple use but to me it doesn't seem like they've got a bike nut looking after their materials choice.

I'd depend a little less on the claims coming out of press releases and bike magazines.
post #102 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Strength has nothing to do with stiffness.

I didn't say it did. It's an additional material property.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

All metals have to be alloyed for structual use. You don't use iron, you use steel. You use 3-2.5 titanium, not CP titanium (although Apple reportedly used CP for the original Powerbook G4 Titanium). Aluminum alloys are used mostly because pure aluminum has much lower strength.

Raleigh used CP titanium in it's Dynatech frames in the 90s, with bonded magnesium lugs (IIRC). Aluminium alloys aren't just used to increase strength over pure Aluminium. Alloying it with other metals tweaks particular traits such as it's fatigue resistance. Pure aluminium has no fatigue resistance as well as being less strong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Resistance to permanent deformation has to do with the elastic limit, not stiffness. A spring or Slinky toy isn't made of stiff material, but it's designed to not exceed the steel's yield strength unless you really stretch it out or bend it too far, so it returns to its original shape.

Yes, plastic deformation is related to the elastic limit of a material. A Slinky is a good example of why steel is better than aluminium in this regard since steel, which is stiffer than aluminium at a given size, will spring back to shape when an aluminium slinky will not. Plastic defamation happens much sooner in aluminium alloys than steel, or you can use much thinner coils in a slinky in steel or thinner casing in a laptop.

On an another aside, it just amazes me people buy titanium springs to replace steel ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

A useless property for a laptop enclosure, since you can't weld every square inch of it. Besides, many framebuilders do still use gussets on 853 frames.

Yes, I was just stating it. I can't think of any framebuilders who know what they are doing, using 853 with gussets. There's a few using 853 with lugs but the tubeset is different for lugged v welded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

It also rusts, so it will need to be protected with durable paint or more likely epoxy powder coat, both of which will reduce heat dissipation. The PB G4 Ti was painted and was fairly easy to scratch.

See 953.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

I'd depend a little less on the claims coming out of press releases and bike magazines.

Dunno, I've been riding more these days than writing in bike magazines. I like it that way - I don't have to ride the shit we had in for review and have to think up a 1000 words to say so.
post #103 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHagan4755 View Post

I think you guys are missing boat if you think this is all about one very thin notebook. I think there will be several MacBook announcements a month from today at Macworld. I think there will be the aluminized MacBook completing Apple's transition away from polycarbonate plastic. I think there will be the MacBook Pro updates with design modifications, specifically revolving around the keyboard and the trackpad. And finally, I think the "one more thing" will be the MacBook thin. That's my gut sense of what's going to happen. Apple has used many Macworlds to announce new notebooks — the Titanium PowerBook G4, the 12- and 17-inch aluminum PowerBook, and the MacBook Pro were all announced in January at Macworld. Things are looking good in this regard.

Maybe aluminium MacBooks and titanium pros? I agree with your points.
post #104 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

That all depends on the approach that Apple takes.


I'm not trying to discount your need to upgrade but do need to point out that disk drives, at least of the portable nature, are not that reliable. Far more laptop drives are replaced due to a failure of some sort than the need to upgrade.

That is one consideration but in the case of built in SSD you have to realize that every time the "drive" goes bad you effectively upgrade the whole computer. A solder in drive that is. When the cost of the "drive" is a significant component of the overall cost of the machine it becomes not such a bad deal. I don't see apple offering logic board upgrades but maybe as Apple care replacements.

The other end of the spectrum is that Apple or ASUS should be able to get the costs of these devices down to the point where replacement of the whole unit makes sense upon failure. Its the old question of does it make sense to spend $100 on a $300 computer that is three years old. Some will of course say yes but others will look at what that $100 will contribute to in a new machine. The same issue arises in the Pod market. many people with 3 year old iPods must be looking at the new tech. with some interest these days.

Thanks
Dave

SSD's don't fail like other drives and are much more reliable that hard drives. There are no moving parts. An flash chip might have bit faults which are are handled internally. If we're talking about a very thin laptop the chips will almost certainly be soldered into motherboard, but they will have about the same failure rate as other chips on the board, so it's much of a muchness.
post #105 of 117
I am really puzzled by the post suggesting that steel/ aluminium are stiffer than carbon fibre. Is this why modern aircraft are made of composites rather than steel or aluminium? I think not. In a stressed skin structure like an aircraft wing or a laptop case a composite will beat steel or al. every time. You also have to differentiate between strength or stiffness (two different properties) per unit weight or per unit area. Per unit weight wood ( God's Composite) comes out remarkably well but is not the best material for a computer case because the volume you need would be too big, though a nice varnished or oiled wood laptop would look great. I have had several titanium/ al. powerbooks and they were all really too delicate, they scratch, they dent and if you or your five year old sit on them you can bend them irretrievably. Part of the reason is that the frames are spot welded into the case and to do this you cannot use a proper hard grade of heat treated aluminium because the spot welding destroys the heat treated properties locally. As for the green argument about the recyclability of carbon fibre composites, there's much more carbon fibre in a tennis racquet than in a laptop case and I don't hear much support for us having steel racquets! I vote for carbon fibre every time and if it really needs a metal panel for heat transfer, then a nice bonded in copper or aluminium panel would do just fine
Regards Isidore
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Regards Isidore
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post #106 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isidore View Post

I am really puzzled by the post suggesting that steel/ aluminium are stiffer than carbon fibre. Is this why modern aircraft are made of composites rather than steel or aluminium? I think not.

There are numerous material properties to consider in choosing a material. There are many different ways to measure strength. It can be compression, tension, shear, hardness, brittleness, and probably others that I can't remember. Carbon fiber composites does have its strength to weight advantages over other materials, but it's kind of floppy in flat sheet form. The rackets you speak of have a constant curve to them, tubular and all.

Quote:
Part of the reason is that the frames are spot welded into the case and to do this you cannot use a proper hard grade of heat treated aluminium because the spot welding destroys the heat treated properties locally.

Can't the whole frame be re-treated? I don't do bikes, but the temper of the alloy that I use can be lost to heat in welding, but it comes back over time, in a matter of weeks at room temperature.
post #107 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isidore View Post

I am really puzzled by the post suggesting that steel/ aluminium are stiffer than carbon fibre.

I never said aluminium was stiffer, but steel is stiffer than most carbon fibre as a material. As a structure, particularly bike frames, quite often the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isidore View Post

Is this why modern aircraft are made of composites rather than steel or aluminium?

No, that's because carbon fiber is less dense than either of them for it's strength and you can also alter the characteristics of how it flexes in the layup providing flexibility in some areas and not in others. You're also not so bothered about thickness in a wing, whereas you are in a sub-notebook. A stiff wing would do a plane no good. The wings flex up and down by quite some distance, even the aluminium ones, which confuses most people who have a simplistic view of aluminium.

I rode an Ibis Riply mountain bike a while back which has a short suspension sprung back end with no pivots, just an aluminium flat plate chainstay that flexes up and down a couple of inches. Designed by an aircraft engineer. I was sceptical but it rode well and didn't fail me despite some persuasion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isidore View Post

As for the green argument about the recyclability of carbon fibre composites, there's much more carbon fibre in a tennis racquet than in a laptop case and I don't hear much support for us having steel racquets! I vote for carbon fibre every time and if it really needs a metal panel for heat transfer, then a nice bonded in copper or aluminium panel would do just fine

Recycleability is the end of life. What's more concerning with CF is the beginning of life, manufacture and it's expected lifespan. Dig out a copy of Cradle to Cradle by McDonough and Braungart sometime.

Steel isn't a good material for tennis racquets. That doesn't mean it's not a good material for other structures.
post #108 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isidore View Post

I don't hear much support for us having steel racquets!

Jimmy Connors won several grand slams with one.........
post #109 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by chazz1985 View Post

Do you think that the Mac Book Pro update might get delayed due to the debut of MB thin at the MacWorld ?

Any Comments ??

http://whygetmacbookpro.blogspot.com/

well....it seems you have started a blog to discuss Macbook Pro... it is easier discussing on forums such as this... than maintain a blog!
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Switching from Windows right after Steve's keynote at the MWSF 'Jan 08
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Switching from Windows right after Steve's keynote at the MWSF 'Jan 08
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post #110 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by macrazy View Post

Switching from Windows right after Steve's keynote at the MWSF 'Jan 08

me too, my brother in arms
post #111 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by steviet02 View Post

It would make sense from a thermal standpoint. The aluminum may be almost a necessity if they shaved off thickness and increased speed.

I very much agree. It makes sense from a thermal standpoint, and as for the delineation, if they make the Macbook Pro gunmetal and the Macbook brushed Al and keep the 13.3 inch displays, I do not foresee any problems!
post #112 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHagan4755 View Post

I think you guys are missing boat if you think this is all about one very thin notebook. I think there will be several MacBook announcements a month from today at Macworld. I think there will be the aluminized MacBook completing Apple's transition away from polycarbonate plastic. I think there will be the MacBook Pro updates with design modifications, specifically revolving around the keyboard and the trackpad. And finally, I think the "one more thing" will be the MacBook thin. That's my gut sense of what's going to happen. Apple has used many Macworlds to announce new notebooks the Titanium PowerBook G4, the 12- and 17-inch aluminum PowerBook, and the MacBook Pro were all announced in January at Macworld. Things are looking good in this regard.

I am with you on the transition from poly to metal. And I am also with you on the idea that this MWSF is going to be HUGE for the notebook line. I agree with you on the redesign of the Macbook Pro. The only thing that I do not agree with the the "Macbook thin". I could see Apple unveiling a new, small FULL FEATURED Macbook Pro, but I don't see it being it's own product or having it's own name. I think that if they add a new Macbook, it will be a new, small pro and they will drop the Black Macbook model and have just the 2 Macbook models. That's how I see it...
post #113 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo View Post

A brand new MacBook that I ordered for my wife was just delivered an hour ago. I'm setting it up now. I don't want to hear about new MacBooks since they were just recently updated to Santa Rosa. Whatever slim 13.3" notebook is being seen now will be a new MacBook Pro, not a MacBook. The MBP line is due for a major update which includes a new case design and Penryn chips. The existing MBP/PB design has been around since 2003. I got my 15" PB in September, 2003, and I want a new MBP with a new case and Penryn. Please, let that be introduced on Jan 15.

[CENTER] [/CENTER][CENTER]If they do make the MBP 13 inch they would loose a lot of sales they need a 15 inch [/CENTER][CENTER][/CENTER]
post #114 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamanthaUpperman View Post

If they do make the MBP 13 inch they would loose a lot of sales they need a 15 inch

I don't think it would be exclusive as in eliminating other sizes. Apple used to have a pro 12", along with 14"/15" and 17" models.
post #115 of 117
Having followed Apple very closely from an investor research standpoint, it seems pretty clear to me that it is careful to sequence the launch of all its products so that it achieves two objectives:

1. Has interestng new products every 3-4 months (2007 saw iPhone, MBP evolutions, new iPods, Leopard and MB evolutions)
2. Doesn't alienate anyone who just bought a new machine

I suspect that the big hardware story at Macworld will be a revamped MacBook Pro line-up. Both 17 inch and 15-inch models will become thinner and lighter with new keyboards and internal DVD drives (and possibly BlueRay option). A third model will be added, which is the much anticipated ultralight 13-inch model with flash memory and no internal drive. All MBPs will have LED screens and 80211n WiFi.

I think that Apple will migrate its MacBook line-up to anodized aluminum models later in the year. They will also become thinner and lighter, but will ratain a 13.3-inch screen and an internal DVD drive. With any luck, they'll be available in bright colours like the iPod Nano.

A lot of people have debated whether Apple would create a single laptop line-up. I think it needs 13-inch models both with and without internal DVD drives, because a good reason to have a DVD drive to watch movies when travellling and it will take time before downloadable movies replace DVDs.
post #116 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tailpipe View Post

Having followed Apple very closely from an investor research standpoint, it seems pretty clear to me that it is careful to sequence the launch of all its products so that it achieves two objectives:

1. Has interestng new products every 3-4 months (2007 saw iPhone, MBP evolutions, new iPods, Leopard and MB evolutions)
2. Doesn't alienate anyone who just bought a new machine

I suspect that the big hardware story at Macworld will be a revamped MacBook Pro line-up. Both 17 inch and 15-inch models will become thinner and lighter with new keyboards and internal DVD drives (and possibly BlueRay option). A third model will be added, which is the much anticipated ultralight 13-inch model with flash memory and no internal drive. All MBPs will have LED screens and 80211n WiFi.

I think that Apple will migrate its MacBook line-up to anodized aluminum models later in the year. They will also become thinner and lighter, but will ratain a 13.3-inch screen and an internal DVD drive. With any luck, they'll be available in bright colours like the iPod Nano.

A lot of people have debated whether Apple would create a single laptop line-up. I think it needs 13-inch models both with and without internal DVD drives, because a good reason to have a DVD drive to watch movies when travellling and it will take time before downloadable movies replace DVDs.


[CENTER]That Would Be Preaty Cool If They Made The MacBook And MacBook Pro In Colors[/CENTER]
post #117 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

SSD's don't fail like other drives and are much more reliable that hard drives. There are no moving parts. An flash chip might have bit faults which are are handled internally. If we're talking about a very thin laptop the chips will almost certainly be soldered into motherboard, but they will have about the same failure rate as other chips on the board, so it's much of a muchness.

That's not entirely correct.

Quote:
Vulnerability to certain types of effects, including abrupt power loss (especially DRAM based SSDs), magnetic fields and electric/static charges compared to normal HDDs (which store the data inside a Faraday cage).

Quote:
Limited write cycles. Typical Flash storage will typically wear out after 300,000-500,000 write cycles, while high endurance Flash storage is often marketed with endurance of 15 million write cycles (many log files, file allocation tables, and other commonly used parts of the file system exceed this over the lifetime of a computer). Special file systems or firmware designs can mitigate this problem by spreading writes over the entire device, rather than rewriting files in place.

Their read/write times are generally slower than a HDD, at least at this level of development. They are an interesting trend, and logically the technology involved should improve over time.
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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