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Report downplays concerns over lack of 3G iPhone - Page 2

post #41 of 177
12/18/07 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

I said it wouldn't affect it much or significantly, and I stand by that. The screen is on for a few seconds, most phone calls last several minutes.

Maybe ten or fifteen seconds each end of the call. But how many calls are being made, and received a day, or week? The more calls, the more draw from the screen. It's likely that ten seconds screen draw is equal to one minute of talk.

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I'd respectfully disagree. I did the sums once, and found that stand-by battery usage accounts for about 40% of my battery usage. If you leave your phone on all the time, it definitely adds up.

I won't argue that number. In fact, it equals what I'm saying. The large majority of your battery use is not from standby, meaning that you've cut your standby time by 60%. Depending on the phone, that would mean that you only have about a day to just a few hours of standby time left.

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Of course, I do not currently own a smartphone, and I think what you're talking about would be more specific to a heavy user on a smartphone. Even then, though, using your worry about the screen being on for a few seconds before and after calls as a benchmark, standby time still matters a bit.

Yes. Smartphones use battery life like a vampire uses people. What is true for your phone about battery life is going to be much more so for a smartphone, particularly one with a really large screen. If you used a smartphone the way you use yours now, there would be little need for one. Therefore, your usage patterns would be different, and your standby time might drop to 20% of the battery life.

We are really just talking about smartphones. Their much more powerful processors use up more power as well.

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See above.

Oh, and I looked up the Anandtech article that Teno cited, where the old, obsolete Blackjack had a lot less talk time with the 3G on. Given that Anandtech measured the talk time at 4 hours 11 minutes with 3G on for the old Blackjack, and Samsung claimed 3 hours, I'm going to say that Samsung measures talk times with 3G on, and more than that, are very conservative in their rated talk times on top of that.

.

Sure. Samsung it a pretty good phone maker. I had both the i300 and i330 Palmphones. Both were pretty good as far as usage went, but 3G wasn't prevalent then and neither phone had it.

But we don't know how others are rated.
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post #42 of 177
12/18/07 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Doesn't the iPhone spend a lot of it's time contacting the carrier to check mail or doing other data related crap? That'd eat into it's 'standby time' significantly I'd have thought and maybe more so if it used 3G.

In the Anandtech article, the Blackjack didn't take a battery life hit for having 3G on while being set to check for email constantly.


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I still think however the lack of 3G for battery related issues was smoke an mirrors to hide the fact they used ancient tech in the iPhone hardware. Now they've got v1 out they can pick more advanced hardware.

I think it was partly that, but also that Steve was oh-so put out by the notion of making the iPhone a teensy bit thicker, so as to accommodate either a larger battery, or a swappable one, either of which might've been necessarily to deal with the increased battery demands of the older 3G chips.

Form over function, as it were.

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post #43 of 177
12/18/07 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

I

I think it was partly that, but also that Steve was oh-so put out by the notion of making the iPhone a teensy bit thicker, so as to accommodate either a larger battery, or a swappable one, either of which might've been necessarily to deal with the increased battery demands of the older 3G chips.

Form over function, as it were.

.

It's funny you said that now, because I walked away from the computer to go downstairs to the kitchen, and while I was there, I was thinking exactly the same thing. I've stated this often. It's a very annoying attribute of Jobs. While thin is nice, especially when it's also big, he overdoes it at times.
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post #44 of 177
12/18/07 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Maybe ten or fifteen seconds each end of the call. But how many calls are being made, and received a day, or week? The more calls, the more draw from the screen. It's likely that ten seconds screen draw is equal to one minute of talk.

Even then, the large majority of your battery draw is coming from the call, not the screen, on average. But I'll grant you that its a factor, albeit a small one.

And, of course, if its something that troubles you, nearly all phones allow you to set a shorter 'backlight on after last input' time interval (like 5 seconds). If the iPhone doesn't, that's something they need to fix.


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I won't argue that number. In fact, it equals what I'm saying. The large majority of your battery use is not from standby

I wouldn't call 60% a large majority, except in a presidential election.

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,meaning that you've cut your standby time by 60%. Depending on the phone, that would mean that you only have about a day to just a few hours of standby time left.

I don't know that you're really following me here (my bad if I explained it unclearly), but just for grins, here's how I did said sums:

Avg usage per month: around 950 minutes
My current phone's talk time: 207 minutes
My current phone's standby time: 210 hours

So, in a given month, my actual talk time depletes my battery about 4.6 times over.

My phone is always on, which comes to 720 hours standby time usage, which uses up my battery about 3.4 times over.

Doing the math, standby times accounts for 42% of my battery usage, which is a lot.


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Yes. Smartphones use battery life like a vampire uses people. What is true for your phone about battery life is going to be much more so for a smartphone, particularly one with a really large screen. If you used a smartphone the way you use yours now, there would be little need for one. Therefore, your usage patterns would be different, and your standby time might drop to 20% of the battery life.

I agree, if I talked a lot more, standby would be less of my battery usage. But bear in mind, that I'm far from a light talker. The average American cellphone user uses 720 minutes per month, so actually I'm above-average in my usage.

Hrumph. Maybe I'm a bit gabby after all.


Quote:
Sure. Samsung it a pretty good phone maker. I had both the i300 and i330 Palmphones. Both were pretty good as far as usage went, but 3G wasn't prevalent then and neither phone had it.

But we don't know how others are rated.

But we do know that Samsung very likely measures with 3G on, and is conservative in their battery life rating. Given that, their more than doubling of talk time from the 3G Blackjack I to the 3G Blackjack II is really quite good, as is the 7 hour rating on the latter phone.

I guess the newer 3G chipsets are getting better on power consumption, and/or Samsung is getting better at power management. Plus, they used a significantly better battery (though nowhere near double the capacity of the Blackjack I's battery).

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post #45 of 177
12/18/07 at 2:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's funny you said that now, because I walked away from the computer to go downstairs to the kitchen, and while I was there, I was thinking exactly the same thing. I've stated this often. It's a very annoying attribute of Jobs. While thin is nice, especially when it's also big, he overdoes it at times.

Yes, I completely agree. If the iPhone were a millimeter or two thicker, would it be loved any less? I sincerely doubt it.

The Blackjack II is actually a millimeter or so thicker than the 'Jack I. I have yet to hear anyone cry about it.

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post #46 of 177
12/18/07 at 2:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Even then, the large majority of your battery draw is coming from the call, not the screen. But I'll grant you that its a factor, albeit a small one.

While we don't have the numbers to support what we're saying, I simply can't agree here. These large backlight have been shown to use a large amount ofr current, much more than a call of the same length. Most calls have also been shown to be less than a minute in length, and that would just about equal the amount of draw that ten to fifteen seconds of backlight would pull.

Quote:
And, of course, if its something that troubles you, nearly all phones allow you to set a shorter 'backlight on after last input' time interval (like 5 seconds). If the iPhone doesn't, that's something they need to fix.

What I've seen in most phones is that the backlight doesn't always go off, but rather dims, so while it's on, it's using less power, but it is still on.

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I wouldn't call 60% a large majority, except in a presidential election.

I don't know, that seems like a lot of power, and that's not for a smartphone, as you pointed out.

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I don't know that you're really following me here (my bad if I explained it unclearly), but just for grins, here's how I did said sums:

Avg usage per month: around 950 minutes
My current phone's talk time: 207 minutes
My current phone's standby time: 210 hours

So, in a given month, my actual talk time depletes my battery about 4.6 times over.

My phone is always on, which comes to 720 hours standby time usage, which uses up my battery about 3.4 times over.

Doing the math, standby times accounts for 42% of my battery usage, which is a lot.

That's actually more confusing than the simple number you gave before.

Quote:
I agree, if I was talked a lot more, standby would be less of my battery usage. But bear in mind, that I'm far from a light talker. The average American cellphone user uses 720 minutes per month, so actually I'm above-average in my usage.

And many phones have less talk time. Besides, it's not monthly times here that matter. It's the time before you have to recharge your battery. try to use your phone to the point where the battery dies. Then you'll know for sure.


But we do know that Samsung very likely measures with 3G on, and is conservative in their battery life rating.[/quote]

Yes, I agreed to that.

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Given that, their more than doubling of talk time from the 3G Blackjack I to the 3G Blackjack II is really quite good, as is the 7 hour rating on the latter phone. I guess the newer 3G chipsets are getting better on power consumption, and/or Samsung is getting better at power management. Plus, they used a significantly better battery (though nowhere near double the capacity of the Blackjack I's battery).

.

I'm sure that all of that is true.
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post #47 of 177
12/18/07 at 2:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Yes, I completely agree. If the iPhone were a millimeter or two thicker, would it be loved any less? I sincerely doubt it.

The Blackjack II is actually a millimeter or so thicker than the 'Jack I. I have yet to hear anyone cry about it.

.

If Jobs didn't constantly, and publicly, state the thicknesses of its products, not only would most people not care, they wouldn't even know.
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post #48 of 177
12/18/07 at 2:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

While we don't have the numbers to support what we're saying, I simply can't agree here. These large backlight have been shown to use a large amount ofr current, much more than a call of the same length. Most calls have also been shown to be less than a minute in length, and that would just about equal the amount of draw that ten to fifteen seconds of backlight would pull.

Trust me, the average call length for most people is more than a minute, at least in the US (in Europe, voice rates are much higher, so they don't yak like us Yanks do).

Yeah, you might do a series of terse, quick check-in calls that last only a minute each, but those 20-minute calls to your wife or girlfriend pull the average way up. And if you're telling me that you can get your wife or girlfriend to shut up after only a minute, all the time, I will either laugh at you for lying so bad, or ask you how the hell you do it.


Quote:
What I've seen in most phones is that the backlight doesn't always go off, but rather dims, so while it's on, it's using less power, but it is still on.

It may be that I'm actually a bit spoiled by having a flip phone. I close it, and the screen shuts off, completely, in five seconds, regardless of what I have the backlight duration set to. My backlight settings only matter if the phone's open.

(still, hmm... 'immediate off' with no dimming would certainly be a nice option on bar-style phones too... does no one have it? hmm... )

But you're correct, if the iPhone screen's dim period is significant, and it likely is, then that does indeed increase the power draw. But would you not 'lock' the phone before putting it back in your pocket, so as not to activate the touchscreen inadvertantly? And does locking result in a pretty rapid 'screen off', or a screen dim? I honestly forget which.


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That's actually more confusing than the simple number you gave before.

LOL, its not that bad.

If I talk 950 minutes a month, and my phone's battery will hold out for 207 minutes, well, just divide 950 by 207, and you see that talk time discharges your battery completely about four-and-a-half times per month. It's just math.


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And many phones have less talk time. Besides, it's not monthly times here that matter. It's the time before you have to recharge your battery. try to use your phone to the point where the battery dies. Then you'll know for sure.

It honestly doesn't change anything. On a full charge, my phone will typically die after about four days of typical use. That's 96 hours.

With my phone's standby time of 210 hours, its easy to see that standby use eats up over 40% of the battery. But again, to be fair, it ain't a smartphone.


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I'm sure that all of that is true.

Yep. And special kudos to Samsung for making the 'Jack II a teensy bit thicker, and slapping a buff 1700 mAh battery in it, instead of the teensy 1200 mAh batt in the old 'Jack

(I believe the iPhone has a 1400 mAh batt, but that's a guess from the aftermarket replacement market, Apple doesn't seem to say for sure anywhere).

Samsung chose function over form... not that a millimeter of extra thickness really does sheeite to the form, either. Steve could learn something here.

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post #49 of 177
12/18/07 at 5:27pm
Many users of 3G (sharing the same phone model) have complained about massive battery drain, whereas a relative minority of other user reports relate that its been no big deal (myself among them, luckily. Though since it seems logical that people with 3G issues are more likely to frequent the forums and post than those who experience no or less significant 3G problems, I'm not certain which is an accurate representation of user experiences as a whole.)

One generally well-received theory about this discrepancy that is often invoked has to do with the specific 3G saturation in the user's geographical region. The notion is that if 3G is constantly dropping in and out, the phone's radio is in a kind of semi-constant 'search mode' where drawing a lot more power looking for a better 3G signal, whereas if the 3G signal is relatively strong, or if you're not hopping from EDGE to 3G every 5 minutes, then it returns to a more passive, normal mode of power consumption.

I know thats not the most technical of explanations, but I can't remember the specific details and I don't feel like looking them up again... you can google the usual phone forums like xda developers or howard for a more coherent discussion of this theory (of which there are several variants..)

As one poster mentioned, a nice feature/compromise would be to automatically tie specific applications to use 3G -- like the browser, google maps, etc -- and other apps like automatic mail retrevial and so on to just use EDGE. My Tilt doesn't have this functionality out of the box (though I don't doubt some hack will likely be forthcoming in the near future from xda to allow this.)

Though remember with EDGE as the default data connection, you would not be able to talk and use data at the same time. One of the really nice things about 3G is that it allows you to talk and surf/check email simultaneously... another thing the original reviewer forgot to mention.
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post #50 of 177
12/18/07 at 8:07pm
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The N80 uses the same S60 Webkit based browser as the E61i, and supports Flash-lite. So it was quite probably rendering more web page content than an iPhone does.

When I looked up the N80 I saw that it used a WAP browser. But I suppose they updated the browser.

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So switch 3G off if you want battery life instead of fast comms. Nice to have a choice though yes?

You do have a choice. You can buy another phone with 3G and wait until the iPhone has 3G.

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Doesn't the iPhone spend a lot of it's time contacting the carrier to check mail or doing other data related crap?

Not really. You can tell the phone how often to check your mail accounts. Push mail only sends mail when there are messages to be sent. Voice and text only come when one is sent.

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And the Blackjack is outdated anyhow, the Blackjack II came out in November. I guess the newer 3G chipsets are getting better on power consumption, and/or Samsung is getting better at power management.

There was no BJ 2 when Anandtech did the test. Of course the chipsets are improving just as Steve said he was waiting for them to.

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I still think however the lack of 3G for battery related issues was smoke an mirrors to hide the fact they used ancient tech in the iPhone hardware. Now they've got v1 out they can pick more advanced hardware.

The only part you can really argue is old is EDGE. The processor, graphic acceleration, screen, battery, storage are all newer tech.

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I think it was partly that, but also that Steve was oh-so put out by the notion of making the iPhone a teensy bit thicker, so as to accommodate either a larger battery, or a swappable one, either of which might've been necessarily to deal with the increased battery demands of the older 3G chips.

I can agree that Steve probably over stated 3G battery drain and obviously did not want the phone to be any thicker than it is.

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It's a very annoying attribute of Jobs. While thin is nice, especially when it's also big, he overdoes it at times. If Jobs didn't constantly, and publicly, state the thicknesses of its products, not only would most people not care, they wouldn't even know.

Its just a choice. There really is no right or wrong. The advantage is that I can place my iPhone in my pocket and forget its there. The BlackJack has a bump where the camera is that makes the phone feel unbalanced in your hand. Its not good or bad its just a different design choice.

It shouldn't be a surprise that Steve set a goal to make the phone a certain thickness and promote how thin it is. A big part of Apple's marketing is design.
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post #51 of 177
12/18/07 at 8:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

W
Its just a choice. There really is no right or wrong. The advantage is that I can place my iPhone in my pocket and forget its there. The BlackJack has a bump where the camera is that makes the phone feel unbalanced in your hand. Its not good or bad its just a different design choice.

It shouldn't be a surprise that Steve set a goal to make the phone a certain thickness and promote how thin it is. A big part of Apple's marketing is design.

So you're saying that you would notice a 2mm difference, and would be unhappy about it even if it did mean 20% better battery life, or possibly 3G?
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post #52 of 177
12/18/07 at 8:33pm
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So you're saying that you would notice a 2mm difference, and would be unhappy about it even if it did mean 20% better battery life, or possibly 3G?

That depends. When Apple designed the iPhone could they have fit a larger battery and 3G into 2mm?
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post #53 of 177
12/18/07 at 8:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

That depends. When Apple designed the iPhone could they have fit a larger battery and 3G into 2mm?

Sure. Almost all batteries that are made for small devices such as phones and music/video players are either completely custom, or semi-custom designs. Apple could spec whatever it wanted, as well as higher dpower density versions.

You've seen the iPod replacement batteries that add up to 50% more life than Apple's own. Apple sells enough of these things so that they could get whatever they needed, if they wanted to.

The battery doesn't take up the full height of the unit. A different radio entirely would have been used. No doubt they could have managed if they wanted to. Everything today is surface mount, which takes little thickness.
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post #54 of 177
12/18/07 at 8:49pm
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You've seen the iPod replacement batteries that add up to 50% more life than Apple's own. Apple sells enough of these things so that they could get whatever they needed, if they wanted to.

There has to be some limiting factor between size, capacity, and price. If there weren't we would certainly see more battery capacity than we see in all electronic devices. I'm sure someone could create more capacity for more cost. But there is a limit on price.

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No doubt they could have managed if they wanted to. Everything today is surface mount, which takes little thickness.

Jobs says the radio he wanted to use wasn't available, but should be by late 2008. Once again I'm sure someone could have built them one at a higher cost.
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post #55 of 177
12/18/07 at 8:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

There has to be some limiting factor between size, capacity, and price. If there weren't we would certainly see more battery capacity than we see in all electronic devices. I'm sure someone could create more capacity for more cost. But there is a limit on price.

Of course there is. If the battery has 20% more volume, then it has 20% more power. These very thin batteries do what they can. But there are different kinds of Lithium batteries out there, some have greater power densities than others. Cost is also involved. But, the more you need, the lower the cost becomes. Apple orders more batteries for these devices than all other makers put together, by far.

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Jobs says the radio he wanted to use wasn't available, but should be by late 2008. Once again I'm sure someone could have built them one at a higher cost.

That's what he says. But what does it mean? Someone here recently stated that he wanted Apple to come out with a full size tablet that was no thicker than the iPhone, with MultiTouch, and other features, and he thought that Apple could do it for $400. So, wanting something can mean many things, including those that are unrealistic.

What Jobs said was thet he wanted a 3G radio that would meet HIS specs. Specs that, if we can believe him about this, that no one yet makes. But, if he were to put in that slightly larger battery, he might have been able to do it now.

Then later, when the newer device came out, he could have revamped the unit, which he would be doing by then anyway, and would be able to announce that the new model was even thinner than the first one, with, possibly, even better battery life. Meanwhile, he would have sold considerably more units, and made much more money .
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post #56 of 177
12/18/07 at 9:17pm
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Apple orders more batteries for these devices than all other makers put together, by far.

This is true. But the battery used in the iPhone may be different from the battery used in the iPod. That same logic could be applied to NAND flash. Apple orders more flash than anyone else so should be able to spec whatever they want.

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Specs that, if we can believe him about this, that no one yet makes. But, if he were to put in that slightly larger battery, he might have been able to do it now.

How are you so sure a thicker battery is all it takes to solve this problem.

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Meanwhile, he would have sold considerably more units, and made much more money .

I'm pretty sure the current plan is to sell many more units and make much more money.
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post #57 of 177
12/18/07 at 9:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

This is true. But the battery used in the iPhone may be different from the battery used in the iPod. That same logic could be applied to NAND flash. Apple orders more flash than anyone else so should be able to spec whatever they want.

That doesn't mean anything because, as I said, these batteries are custom, so yes, each model will have a different battery. That's the point I'm making.

You can't compare silicon Flash to a battery. If you were talking about a custom chip, then of course, that's what the chip foundries do. Their business is to manufacture the chips designed by others. But, flash is not custom. The price depends on selling, not tens of millions, but hundreds of millions of units a year, if possible. Apple, like others, must design around what is available. But because they buy so much, and paid for a good deal in advance, they got very good pricing.

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How are you so sure a thicker battery is all it takes to solve this problem.

If we can believe Jobs when he said the problem was battery life, then it stands to reason that a battery that offered more battery life would solve the problem. a thicker battery offers more life, ergo, problem solved.

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I'm pretty sure the current plan is to sell many more units and make much more money.

That's the plan, sans sales that are being lost because of the lack of 3G.
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post #58 of 177
12/18/07 at 10:21pm
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You can't compare silicon Flash to a battery. But, flash is not custom. The price depends on selling, not tens of millions, but hundreds of millions of units a year, if possible.

I would argue that more batteries are a larger market than flash. Every portable electronic device needs a battery, while only few electronic devices use flash storage.

It should should be easier to lower prices in a commodity market than a customized market.

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a thicker battery offers more life, ergo, problem solved.

Depends on if the additional battery life really offsets the extra drain from 3G enough to make much difference. We are talking in theory. You really don't know how this will work until its tried.

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That's the plan, sans sales that are being lost because of the lack of 3G.

In its first full quarter of sales the iPhone has outsold every competitor in the US short of the BlackBerry. The iPhone also seems to have a healthy grey market around the world.

So far the official sales numbers we have are from Apple's partners. We don't have current sales numbers from Apple themselves. When these numbers are released will likely be very impressive.

All that to say there are probably a few hundred thousand consumers who will not buy the iPhone sans 3G, but millions are still being sold.
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post #59 of 177
12/18/07 at 10:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I would argue that more batteries are a larger market than flash. Every portable electronic device needs a battery, while only few electronic devices use flash storage.

It should should be easier to lower prices in a commodity market than a customized market.

Teno, you're missing the point. Sure, there are hundreds, maybe billions of batteries sold each year, and most are standard batteries. But, the custom ones are what we're concerned about.

As for Flash, please, it just isn't going to happen. Try to find a Flash manufacturer (of chips, not packaging) that will design and manufacture relatively small quantities of Flash. No one does that, I can assure you. These are standard units that each Flash manufacturer designs, at great expense, and then sells.

Apple was going to invest in a Flash manufacturing facility a year ago, with Samsung, but decided not to do so when Samsung got into trouble. Possibly, if they had done that, they could have had some influence over what got produced for them, but not basic designs, it simply costs too much.

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Depends on if the additional battery life really offsets the extra drain from 3G enough to make much difference. We are talking in theory. You really don't know how this will work until its tried.

Well, again, we don't know the specifics. It seems to be either guarded, or we just have to look very hard, which I'm not interested in doing.

But, I've designed a lot of electronics, and built plenty as well. If the power it there, then the problem is solved. It's not that difficult.

But, jobs went with design. It's what he does with consumer products. Look at the Mini. If it were just a bit bigger, he could have used cheaper, bigger, and faster, 3.5" drives like most people who complain seem to want, but he didn't.

The same thing with the iMac. just a bit thicker, and there would be more room for cooling, and even a card slot for a graphics board, but again, design won out.

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In its first full quarter of sales the iPhone has outsold every competitor in the US short of the BlackBerry. The iPhone also seems to have a healthy grey market around the world.

Sure, we all know that. But sales could have been significantly higher with 3G. He would have sold at least two to my family. Look how Aegis, and others, complain about the lack of 3G on European sales. And what's going to happen in Japan, where 4G has been running already? They'll sell some, assuming they have a deal, but not nearly as many as they could.

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So far the official sales numbers we have are from Apple's partners. We don't have current sales numbers from Apple themselves. When these numbers are released will likely be very impressive.

The estimates I'm seeing, as you are, are around 2.1 million units this quarter. But, that's likely conservative. That's including the very anemic sales in Europe, the lack of which, even I have been surprised at.

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All that to say there are probably a few hundred thousand consumers who will not buy the iPhone sans 3G, but millions are still being sold.

Don't be so sure. It could be that Apple would have seen a million more sales. but, in the coming months, in areas where 3G is much more important, a greater percentage of sales will either be delayed (optimistically), or lost, as consumers buy other phones with it.

Our discussion is interesting and fun, but we will actually know once the 3G model is introduced next year. After three months, the sales numbers will tell us what's what.
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post #60 of 177
12/19/07 at 6:50am
Teno, what you also perhaps miss is that outside the US, there really isn't an extensive EDGE network. That's why a non 3G iPhone is plainly stupid despite it's wonderful UI.

For me personally, 3G isn't a big issue as I live in a rural area that has spotty 3G coverage so most of the time I'd switch it off. I've got WiFi too at home/work (same thing for me). The main reason for wanting it is for use on trains when I'm going somewhere as plain old GPRS is painful.

For everyone else though it just seems mad that it doesn't have 3G.
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post #61 of 177
12/19/07 at 8:12am
Quote:
Teno, you're missing the point. Sure, there are hundreds, maybe billions of batteries sold each year, and most are standard batteries. But, the custom ones are what we're concerned about.

It should be a lot cheaper to make hundreds of millions of the standard batteries than to make a couple million custom designed for the iPhone.

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As for Flash, please, it just isn't going to happen.

I'm not saying it will but you are applying an uneven logic to economy of scale. Apple buys a lot of flash just like it buys a lot of batteries.

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But sales could have been significantly higher with 3G.

I don't see evidence of that. There are a few people on this board who refuse to buy one without 3G. But there are just as many if not more who say they have an iPhone and love it.

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That's including the very anemic sales in Europe, the lack of which, even I have been surprised at.

There are a couple of wrinkles in Europe. We are mostly hearing the number of activations. Its close to Christmas so many more activations will likely happen after that. Many phones being bought are likely being hacked onto other mobile carriers or being sold on the grey market. The service price is steep which would give me pause if I were looking to buy an iPhone in the UK.

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For everyone else though it just seems mad that it doesn't have 3G.

We know 3G is coming so they should just chill out and be patient. Complaining about it for 6 months isn't changing anything.
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post #62 of 177
12/19/07 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

It should be a lot cheaper to make hundreds of millions of the standard batteries than to make a couple million custom designed for the iPhone.

Teno, you keep insisting on thinds that aren't manfacturing reality. Besides, Apple has already sold over 3 million phones, possibly 4 million, and will sell at least as many more by the time a new model comes out.

Custom batteries are expensive, my Canon battery for my 5D costs $40, which is why it can be done. The more they make, the lower the price will be. Canon will never sell anywhere near as many of these batteries as Apple will, so Apple's prices will be less.

But, this doesn't pertain to memory.

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I'm not saying it will but you are applying an uneven logic to economy of scale. Apple buys a lot of flash just like it buys a lot of batteries.

No, I'm not. you just don't know about manufacturing. You are stuck on your thought. Chip manufacturing is totally different from any other kind. There are many custom battery manufacturers around the world, just like there are thousands of custom batteries.

The custom chip manufacturers don't make custom memory chips, except for specialized, and very expensive, military needs, and those are just handpicked off the assembly line after testing, and put into high stress packaging. The chips are the same.

Memory is cheap because it relies on a process that can produce vast amounts of identical products.

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I don't see evidence of that. There are a few people on this board who refuse to buy one without 3G. But there are just as many if not more who say they have an iPhone and love it.

You can see what you want here.

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There are a couple of wrinkles in Europe. We are mostly hearing the number of activations. Its close to Christmas so many more activations will likely happen after that. Many phones being bought are likely being hacked onto other mobile carriers or being sold on the grey market. The service price is steep which would give me pause if I were looking to buy an iPhone in the UK.

It's more than wrinkles. 30 thousand sales for England in five days is not great, no matter how you try to spin it. Granted that the population is a quarter of ours, but compare it to 270 thousand sold here in three days, and you can see an obvious truth. same thing on the mainland.

Now, I'm not saying that all of the huge shortfall is due to the lack of 3G, but a fair amount certainly is.

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We know 3G is coming so they should just chill out and be patient. Complaining about it for 6 months isn't changing anything.

Not everyone is patient. Look at the idiots who stand on these lines overnight to get something they could have gotten in 20 minutes a few days later.

Most others will get something now that has what they want (need), rather than wait six months to a year.
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post #63 of 177
12/19/07 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Teno, what you also perhaps miss is that outside the US, there really isn't an extensive EDGE network. That's why a non 3G iPhone is plainly stupid despite it's wonderful UI.


Bingo!

Even Jobs himself admits that "you wish it was faster" (his words, not mine) in regards to the browsing experience on EDGE. Now take that, and make it an order of magnitude worse, by going with an exclusive carrier in the UK whose non-3G data network isn't EDGE, but rather is mostly GPRS, i.e. 25-40 kbps, i.e. dial-up speed.

Gee, is it 2007, or is it 1995? I'll go get my old 28.8 modem out of the hall closet.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we know... it has wifi. Great. But if you're mobile, i.e. in a car or on public transit (which is much more popular in Europe than the US), it doesn't do you any good. Also, what if you're away from a city center/urban area? Blah.

We keep hearing from the Euro posters again and again that lack of 3G is one of the big things keeping them away from the iPhone (the other being price), and Euro sales bear that out by being much less than impressive, and yet we have Teno running around with his hands over his ears yelling, in effect, "Lalalalala, I can't HEAR you! iPhone hasn't lost ANY sales due to lack of 3G! Dismal Euro sales WILL pick up! Lalalala!" \

At this point, I almost have to wonder if he shouldn't be in an executive position at Apple marketing, 'cuz he'd be fantastic at it. He's spinning harder than my washing machine during rinse cycle.

Teno, it's okay to admit that Apple pulled a bit of a gooferino in not having their 3G model ready in time for the Euro launch. The iPhone is still cool, is still revolutionary. But I have to admit I'm kinda disappointed considering that Samsung was able to give us a 3G smartphone with good battery life a month ago, i.e. at the same time as Apple's Euro launch. And its not a tank either, its only a half-inch thick. If they can do it, Apple should be able to too.

But instead, we'll be waiting another 6-10 months, while iPhone sales are lost, as Mel correctly points out, and while Apple's competitors gain time to bring out their "good enough" touchscreen iPhone clones... with 3G, with MMS, with GPS (LG already has one out in the US, courtesy of Verizon. And yep, it's selling).

Probably didn't have to be this way, but Steve's design choices dictated some of that, as even Teno admits. Form over function to the nth degree, wheeee.

Far as my own choices in the US go, wake me up when Apple has a 3G model out. And when ATT isn't the exclusive carrier anymore.


Sidenote- It was pretty hilarious when I was watching ABC World News very late last night. They had a segment on the 'big gadgets of 2007', and of course the iPhone was on it. One of the two anchors then went as far as to haul out her own iPhone after the segment video finished, and proclaim "I love it." The other anchor then asked her, "What do you think of the ATT service?". At which point Anchor #1 grimaced and dodged the question.

Augh.

.
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post #64 of 177
12/19/07 at 3:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Bingo!

Even Jobs himself admits that "you wish it was faster" (his words, not mine) in regards to the browsing experience on EDGE. Now take that, and make it an order of magnitude worse, by going with an exclusive carrier in the UK whose non-3G data network isn't EDGE, but rather is mostly GPRS, i.e. 25-40 kbps, i.e. dial-up speed.

Gee, is it 2007, or is it 1995? I'll go get my old 28.8 modem out of the hall closet.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we know... it has wifi. Great. But if you're mobile, i.e. in a car or on public transit (which is much more popular in Europe than the US), it doesn't do you any good. Also, what if you're away from a city center/urban area? Blah.

We keep hearing from the Euro posters again and again that lack of 3G is one of the big things keeping them away from the iPhone (the other being price), and Euro sales bear that out by being much less than impressive, and yet we have Teno running around with his hands over his ears yelling, in effect, "Lalalalala, I can't HEAR you! iPhone hasn't lost ANY sales due to lack of 3G! Dismal Euro sales WILL pick up! Lalalala!" \

At this point, I almost have to wonder if he shouldn't be in an executive position at Apple marketing, 'cuz he'd be fantastic at it. He's spinning harder than my washing machine during rinse cycle.

Teno, it's okay to admit that Apple pulled a bit of a gooferino in not having their 3G model ready in time for the Euro launch. The iPhone is still cool, is still revolutionary. But I have to admit I'm kinda disappointed considering that Samsung was able to give us a 3G smartphone with good battery life a month ago, i.e. at the same time as Apple's Euro launch. And its not a tank either, its only a half-inch thick. If they can do it, Apple should be able to too.

But instead, we'll be waiting another 6-10 months, while iPhone sales are lost, as Mel correctly points out, and while Apple's competitors gain time to bring out their "good enough" touchscreen iPhone clones... with 3G, with MMS, with GPS (LG already has one out in the US, courtesy of Verizon. And yep, it's selling).

Probably didn't have to be this way, but Steve's design choices dictated some of that, as even Teno admits. Form over function, wheeee.

Far as my own choices in the US go, wake me up when Apple has a 3G model out. And when ATT isn't the exclusive carrier anymore.


Sidenote- It was pretty hilarious when I was watching ABC World News very late last night. They had a segment on the 'big gadgets of 2007', and of course the iPhone was on it. One of the two anchors then went as far as to haul out her own iPhone after the segment video finished, and proclaim "I love it." The other anchor then asked her, "What do you think of the ATT service?". At which point Anchor #1 grimaced and dodged the question.

Augh.

.

Right on, T!
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post #65 of 177
12/19/07 at 3:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Right on, T!


*high-fives Mel, and goes off to fix himself some lunch*

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post #66 of 177
12/19/07 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

*high-fives Mel, and goes off to fix himself some lunch*

.

Lunch?

Well, we don't know where you are, but it must be a long ways away from where I am.
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post #67 of 177
12/19/07 at 3:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Lunch?

Well, we don't know where you are, but it must be a long ways away from where I am.


I'm West Coast. It was actually 3:30-ish here when I posted that, so late lunch/very early dinner.

Now to eat!

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post #68 of 177
12/19/07 at 4:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

I'm West Coast. It was actually 3:30-ish here when I posted that, so late lunch/very early dinner.

Now to eat!

.

Ah. you're beginning to give yourself away.

A little more prodding, and who knows what might happen!
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post #69 of 177
12/19/07 at 4:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Ah. you're beginning to give yourself away.

A little more prodding, and who knows what might happen!


I'm actually posting from Steve's secret underground Cupertino command bunker.

Air vents are a wonderful thing, if a bit tight.

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post #70 of 177
12/19/07 at 4:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

I'm actually posting from Steve's secret underground Cupertino command bunker.

Air vents are a wonderful thing, if a bit tight.

.

Will you go and eat already before your starvation gets worse, and your hallucinations take you over completely!

We'll be here later. I'm going to dinner downstairs in a short while as well.
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post #71 of 177
12/19/07 at 7:25pm
I don't know why you don't believe me. It's great down here, there's a closet full of black mock turtlenecks, and a 'quarterly review stall' where Steve gets to taze underperforming employees or anyone who's unwilling to do 100-hour weeks.

Strangely enough, there's no shower. Hmmm.

The parking's lousy though. Nothing but handicapped spaces. Steve said "It was never a problem" for him. Wonder why.

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post #72 of 177
12/19/07 at 8:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

... and a 'quarterly review stall' where Steve gets to taze underperforming employees or anyone who's unwilling to do 100-hour weeks.

...

Well, THAT I believe.
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post #73 of 177
12/19/07 at 11:37pm
Quote:
No, I'm not. you just don't know about manufacturing.

Fine enough I'm no more a chip manufacturer than you. Much of what you say sounds like your opinion to support your position more than it sounds like you have any real information of how these processes work.

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30 thousand sales for England in five days is not great, no matter how you try to spin it.

Not great in comparison to what? A fair comparision cannot be made with US sales the circumstances between the two markets are very different.

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"Lalalalala, I can't HEAR you! iPhone hasn't lost ANY sales due to lack of 3G! Dismal Euro sales WILL pick up! Lalalala!"

You have a special knack for misquoting me. I never said the iPhone has lost no sales because of 3G. But there are a few other factors going on in Europe other than 3G.

Quote:
But instead, we'll be waiting another 6-10 months, while iPhone sales are lost, as Mel correctly points out, and while Apple's competitors gain time to bring out their "good enough" touchscreen iPhone clones... with 3G, with MMS, with GPS

The same way Apple gave their competitors time to catch up with their good enough mp3 players....with FM radios, music rentals, and Plays For Sure.

Just as the iPod has always been a work in progress which never gave the competition a chance to catch up. I would venture the iPhone will be the same. By the time competitors have made what the iPhone was last year Apple will have moved on.

Quote:
Teno, it's okay to admit that Apple pulled a bit of a gooferino in not having their 3G model ready in time for the Euro launch. Right on, T!

Seems no matter what success the iPhone achieves you will cling to the the idea it could have done "better" if it had 3G now. Your minds are permanently set on that no matter the facts that may point to the contrary. In a few months it'll no longer be an issue.
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post #74 of 177
12/20/07 at 12:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Fine enough I'm no more a chip manufacturer than you. Much of what you say sounds like your opinion to support your position more than it sounds like you have any real information of how these processes work.

I don't have to be a chip manufacturer. You know I have manufacturing and electronic design experience. I've had these issues to go through, though not recently. But, you can read the tech sites as well as anyone, even without the experience.

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Not great in comparison to what? A fair comparision cannot be made with US sales the circumstances between the two markets are very different.

I don't see why not that would be valid. Other than the amount of 3G usage, what other major differences are there? They buy expensive phones, etc. And it's the same in Germany and France. Sales per population numbers all far below US figures. MMS? I don't think so. MMS is used more by those who want to save money, not use expensive services.

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You have a special knack for misquoting me. I never said the iPhone has lost no sales because of 3G. But there are a few other factors going on in Europe other than 3G.

Ah. Reading down from the last, I thought you meant me. Teno, please refer to whom you are responding. I don't write that way, that's how I caught it.
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post #75 of 177
12/20/07 at 1:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Not great in comparison to what? A fair comparision cannot be made with US sales the circumstances between the two markets are very different.

Yep that's true. There are lots of other factors too such as the lack of an EDGE network, more advanced and more competitive competition, the iPhone's price and it's dismal tariffs.

Apple just got it wrong trying to force a US phone on Europe with US pricing too. I hope they learn from that and not just in the phone market too.
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post #76 of 177
12/20/07 at 8:21am
Quote:
I don't have to be a chip manufacturer. You know I have manufacturing and electronic design experience. I've had these issues to go through, though not recently. But, you can read the tech sites as well as anyone, even without the experience.

You clearly take a firm and biased stance on an issue and use whatever information you have available to support it. I'm sure some of the things you say are true. But I don't believe someone who actually does work in flash or battery manufacturing would fully agree with you.

Quote:
I don't see why not that would be valid. Other than the amount of 3G usage, what other major differences are there?

The European market is already flooded with fairly advanced phones. While in the US the iPhone is a lot better than most anything we have.

The service charge for the Europe iPhone is higher than it is in the US.

The official sales numbers we are hearing from Europe are activations and not actual sales from Apple. There is likely to be a much higher number of iPhones unlocked and running on different carriers in Europe than in the US. Which would not be figured into the official activation numbers.

The iPod Touch was available in Europe before the iPhone. The iPod Touch was not an option in the US when 270,000 iPhones were sold in two days.

The iPhone was released weeks before Christmas. There will at least be tens if not hundreds of thousands of iPhones waiting to be opened Christmas morning. Most will likely be activated with Apples carriers of choice. Some will definitely be unlocked and used on other carriers.
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post #77 of 177
12/20/07 at 8:57am
Thinking about it again. Europe doesn't have it that bad with its mobile service. The contract is for 18 months. Oranage in France and T-Mobile in Germany will unlock your iPhone after the contract is over and you are free to move the phone to a number of other carriers.

In the US our contract is 24 months. ATT will not unlock our phones. And even if they did the only other option is T-Mobile. Verizon would be much more the preferred option.
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post #78 of 177
12/20/07 at 9:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The service charge for the Europe iPhone is higher than it is in the US.

It's not really that that is an issue. We're quite used to paying more than the US.... except for phones where it's usually a lot less especially in the UK. By comparison with other handsets in Europe, the iPhone tariffs are very expensive unless you really need a lot of data in your tariff. And if you did need a lot of data, you'd not pick a phone that only offers 2G speeds and can't be used as a modem. That's the WTF moment you have when trying to rationalise the iPhone especially when it's sold next to free N95s with unlimited text, gps mapping updates, 500 minutes free and 'unlimited' data for £35 in the very same shop from the very same carrier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The official sales numbers we are hearing from Europe are activations and not actual sales from Apple. There is likely to be a much higher number of iPhones unlocked and running on different carriers in Europe than in the US. Which would not be figured into the official activation numbers.

Not true. O2 may have not released actual sales figures but both Orange France and T-Mobile did. Still, I wonder what Jobs will say on the stage at MacWorld. Orange France said about 20% were sold unlocked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The iPhone was released weeks before Christmas. There will at least be tens if not hundreds of thousands of iPhones waiting to be opened Christmas morning. Most will likely be activated with Apples carriers of choice. Some will definitely be unlocked and used on other carriers.

I really, really, really doubt that. The market for phones at Xmas is Pay-As-You-Go phones, not expensive 18 month contract phones. The top seller this Xmas in the stores today (just back from Manchester shopping) was the Sony Ericsson W580i at around £100 contract free and unlocked on t-mobile.
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post #79 of 177
12/20/07 at 9:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Thinking about it again. Europe doesn't have it that bad with its mobile service. The contract is for 18 months. Oranage in France and T-Mobile in Germany will unlock your iPhone after the contract is over and you are free to move the phone to a number of other carriers.

In the US our contract is 24 months. ATT will not unlock our phones. And even if they did the only other option is T-Mobile. Verizon would be much more the preferred option.

Yes, it's not bad in comparison to the USA, but that's not the point!
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post #80 of 177
12/20/07 at 9:34am
Quote:
Not true. O2 may have not released actual sales figures but both Orange France and T-Mobile did. Still, I wonder what Jobs will say on the stage at MacWorld. Orange France said about 20% were sold unlocked.

That still only accounts for the phones that they've sold, it does not tell the full story of how many are being sold in Europe overall.

Quote:
I really, really, really doubt that. The market for phones at Xmas is Pay-As-You-Go phones, not expensive 18 month contract phones.

Its the same in the US. There will be many other phones that will far outsell the iPhone for Christmas. In the grand scheme of things hundreds of thousands isn't that much. I'm not saying the iPhone will be the top selling phone for Christmas, I'm just saying it is selling.
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