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Exclusive: Apple to adopt Intel's ultra-mobile PC platform - Page 3

post #81 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

It all depends on the MHz. Silverthorne's targeted TDP is 0.55 Watts. If that is at 600 MHz clock rate, it'll be within 600 MHz ARM implementations. I wouldn't expect ARM processors of equivalent performance per Hz to be much lower power consumption than Intel's attempt, and as noted, Intel has a process advantage to provide parity if they are off by a factor of 2 to their competitors. If that's a 1 GHz clock rate, I don't think ARM will be competing very well as Intel's process advantage would be too much.

If those numbers are real and include the entire chip set then they are indeed very good. One has to remember that this is a high integration shot at a SOC. The chip will be including a memory interface and a GPU - plus whatever else. So at the moment I'm taking this too mean that the total power is pretty damn good especially if it is maxing out at two watts. In any event Intels power numbers are always a bit sneaky as you really want to know what the power profile is when driving a farily intensive process(es). Say watching a movie while handling Wifi in back ground.

Either way if the chip set is half as good as is being indicated, then Intel will have made significant advancements for the i86 world. The problem is ARM isn't standing still, you should be able to implement a multiprocessor ARM solution and still end up under Intels power levels and probably end up with a better more responsive system. In any event Intel gets the slot simply because of the instruction set and being good enough.
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Having a competitive SoC on the other hand may prove to be trouble for Intel. They're going to have 2 chip solution (Moorestown). That may be one chip too many. They got a really nice Apple-ish concept device though:

The only thing that would be attractive to Apple is the x86 instruction set or a subset of that and Intel's low power processes. These features can't be underestimated though. Frankly I have to agree that a two chip solution will be a hard sell, especially in something along the lines of an iPod. However considering what they have integrated into the main chip, I have to wonder if the second support chip will always be required.
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But like everyone else is saying, where's the market? UMPC vendors are providing solutions searching for a problem.

The problem is the manufactures just don't understand people perception of value for the money. At least not until ASUS came out with the Eee PC. The simply answer is that no body would be willing to spend the money asked for the devices. Especially in the corporate world and its mind set of screw the work and buy the cheapest thing that can get the job done.
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Edit: Well, Anandtech won't show the images

As a side note I don't like the idea that Intel will get the slot simply because it is good enough and has the i86 component locked up. Alternative hardware seems too be dropping like flies. I expect Power PC to be dead in a couple of years, mainly due ot IBM dropping the ball there. Microchip is taking a shot at MIPs and then your have ARM. I fully expect that in a coule of years we will have a two horse race with Intel and ARM the only survivors. Intel will take just about anything that requires flexibility in user level software leaving the embedded world to ARM.

Dave
post #82 of 180
dude! can i have some of that ¨grass¨your smoking?


Quote:
Originally Posted by appleeinstein View Post

Maybe a pocket for a friggin giraffe.

That thing is UUUUUGLY. I don't think it can get any uglier unless it has a M$ Windoze logo stuck to it.

Here's what they'll be using the new chips for.

The Power of Ten. (click image to view full size)

As you can see, this 9" x 6.5" device (9" screen diagonal; 800x500 resolution) sports an iSight camera with mic, stereo speakers, and two physical buttons on the face:
  • Power button (press once to turn off screen and put in sleep mode; press and hold to power down)
  • Exposé button (press once to see all your open windows, press twice to open Dashboard, press and hold to minimize all open windows to the dock and zoom all the way out)
It also has dedicated volume buttons, a play/pause button, and Ctrl, Alt, and Command buttons on the face between the speakers, all touch-sensitive (similar to the LG Chocolate).

The device runs an updated version of Mac OS X Leopard that uses the Spaces engine + multitouch to allow two- and three-finger guesturing to zoom in and out both within programs and on the overall desktop (hence the press-and-hold option for the Exposé button). The screen has an articulating frame with braille-like dots that allow tactile play and response for the multi-layout onscreen keyboard that pops up whenever you rest more than four fingers on the screen or open it manually by double-tapping the spotlight icon. A smaller, magnification-based keypad (press and slide back/forth/up/down to choose character; release to select) also pops up in an unused corner of the screen whenever the Ctrl, Alt, or Command modifier keys are pressed. This allows for common keyboard shortcuts to retain their old functionality.

A built-in orientation sensor automatically switches the screen from landscape to portrait, but this can be manually overriden by "gripping" the screen with three fingers and twisting. The back of the device has an ultrathin pop-out reinforced stand that, while not significantly adding to weight, allows it to be propped up at a 20 degree (for typing) or 70 degree (for watching videos or video chatting) angle. The stand is slightly loose in its clipping mechanism and thus, though it cannot be removed entirely, can be quickly re-oriented to prop it up in portrait orientation.

One configuration of Cover Flow + QuickLook + orientation sensor allows for full-screen Cover Flow browsing in landscape and an automatic switch to QuickLook for the highlighted file when you switch to portrait.

The dock can be reconfigured to provide iPhone-esque icons that can be scrolled through by flicking them back and forth. Likewise, watching movies in portrait view allows for the user to open up an iPhone-style interface on the bottom half of the screen for surfing the web or typing a quick email.

The outer frame is the same no-slip brushed aluminium featured in the iPod Touch. The device comes standard with a composite leather sleeve that fits tightly around the outside edges and sports a stiff leather cover to flip over the screen when not in use (it automatically secures with magnets at the base).

Supports full Bluetooth, WiFi, and infrared (for Apple Remote) and comes with a built-in 3G and EDGE radio (configurable with the purchase of a supported wireless broadband data plan). The WiFi also allows for automatic data syncing (a few folders for work and a few for home?) with a desktop or notebook Apple with compatible AirPort.

The left edge has the MagSafe power port, two USB 2.0 ports, an Ethernet port, Firewire port, video out port, and 3.5mm audio input/output jacks. It also has a standard iPod dock built into the right edge of the device. Thin, tall third-party "expansion pack dongles" can be plugged into the iPod dock to allow for GPS support or other similar functionality. Bluetooth support allows for third-party headsets to mimic phone service using VOIP if connected to the internet using 3G or WiFi.

No optical drive; 80GB flash memory built into motherboard. Optionally the device can ship with 40GB flash memory and a 120GB 1.8" HDD for extra file storage (the 1.8" drive cannot run programs or the operating system). Battery life with flash-only configuration at medium screen brightness for moderate use is 18 hours.

Pricing starts at $649 for the base configuration and $749 for the HDD, thus (along with the 3G-enabled 16GB iPhone 2 at $599) filling the pricing gap between the current iPhone and the MacBook line (which will be expanded with an ultraportable ultrathin version at $999.

To be announced at the MacWorld convention in January 2008 after all the other products have been announced. Announcement made by Steve Jobs in an iPhone-esque product launch. Release on June 29, 2008.
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post #83 of 180
Very nice discussion. I have a few questions.

1) Does anyone know when silverthorne will be available? The article says "early in 2008" but I was wondering if anyone knew of a more concrete date.

2) Is Menlow a SoC platform?

3) What are the advantages of a SoC platform.
post #84 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I've found that with the iPhone, the vertical keyboard is a bit difficult, but it becomes much easier when typing in Safari with the horizontal orientation, and that will be smaller than either size machine we are looking at. But, I'm not typing as a touch typist when I try it, but two thumb Blackberry style.

60 words a minute is fairly fast, but not very. It might be possible on a somewhat larger board, but it would be a question. I do think that a second generation model will likely perform better than these first generation ones. So much is dependent on the software.

But, can you type at that speed now on one of the mid size keyboards?

I'm 18, I'm a NALA certified paralegal, and I can type well in excess of 100 wpm on my (ancient) 1st-gen MacBook keyboard. Standard Windoze keyboards are usu. between 90 and 100 wpm. I can type around 75-85 wpm on a smaller 7.5-inch laptop keyboard once I get used to it.

In landscape two-thumb Blackberry style on the iPhone I can reach 40 wpm or so. Not that amazing in terms of data entry, but pretty good for a 3.5" screen.

I'm definitely a power user when it comes to how demanding I am on my text entry method. I think nothing of sitting down and typing out an 8 page memorandum of law while I'm waiting for my boss to finish eating his sub at Quizno's (fictitious example). Most of the target market isn't going to be as demanding on their keyboards, but it makes me a good test subject; if I can use a virtual keyboard setup without it hampering me, then most people will be able to as well.

I quoted 60 wpm as the value that most intermediate typists would probably be able to type initially on a touchscreen keyboard. Assuming that they could usually type at 70 wpm on the physical keyboard of their choice. If a person could only type 50 wpm, then they could probably do 42 or so on the touchscreen keyboard. Ultimately there would be no difference once you get used to it; I'm sure I would break 100 wpm on a touchscreen keyboard in under two weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenga

dude! can I have some of that "grass" your smoking?

It's not grass, it's bananadine. Google it.
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post #85 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by appleeinstein View Post

I'm 18, I'm a NALA certified paralegal, and I can type well in excess of 100 wpm on my (ancient) 1st-gen MacBook keyboard. Standard Windoze keyboards are usu. between 90 and 100 wpm. I can type around 75-85 wpm on a smaller 7.5-inch laptop keyboard once I get used to it.

In landscape two-thumb Blackberry style on the iPhone I can reach 40 wpm or so. Not that amazing in terms of data entry, but pretty good for a 3.5" screen.

I'm definitely a power user when it comes to how demanding I am on my text entry method. I think nothing of sitting down and typing out an 8 page memorandum of law while I'm waiting for my boss to finish eating his sub at Quizno's (fictitious example). Most of the target market isn't going to be as demanding on their keyboards, but it makes me a good test subject; if I can use a virtual keyboard setup without it hampering me, then most people will be able to as well.

I quoted 60 wpm as the value that most intermediate typists would probably be able to type initially on a touchscreen keyboard. Assuming that they could usually type at 70 wpm on the physical keyboard of their choice. If a person could only type 50 wpm, then they could probably do 42 or so on the touchscreen keyboard. Ultimately there would be no difference once you get used to it; I'm sure I would break 100 wpm on a touchscreen keyboard in under two weeks.

40 WPM on an iPhone, even in horiz position is pretty danged good. If you can do that, then a keyboard that's an inch and a half wider, and an inch higher should present no problems, unless you find it to be too wide for two thumb reach, but too small for touch. I can't answer that, it also depends on the size of your hands.
post #86 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I really think it has to be "beltable". The Newton was, as I remember, the first really beltable computing device. a newer replacement would be thinner, and lighter, making it even more possible to carry that way.

The only problem I have with a coat pocketable device, is how does one carry it when not wearing that coat?

You could start carrying a purse. Just kidding. Seriously though, I could see men carrying some type of computer shoulder bag, it doesn't have to match your shoes.

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post #87 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

You could start carrying a purse. Just kidding. Seriously though, I could see men carrying some type of computer shoulder bag, it doesn't have to match your shoes.

That's a problem though. It's something you have to carry. Then when you sit down, you have to remove it from your shoulder. There are many times when people want to go somewhere and don't want to carry something, what then?

The whole point to taking something everywhere you go, is that it not be annoying to have.
post #88 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

With all of the attention paid to energy waste/pollution due to transportation, the fact is that 1/3 of power usage in this country is devoted to architectural waste. And a huge amount of that energy waste is devoted to cooling buildings now being heated by superfluous computing power.

You are correct about superfluous computing power wasting energy, but who wants five different personal computers for various tasks. Where cooling is much more of an issue, is in data centers. That is where low power cpus and virtualization come in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I really don't need somebody telling me what sort of car I drive or what sort of PC I need. Oh by the way I do most of my eating in restaurants, that probably offends you in some way too. It is not an issue of entitlement or other leftist wishfulness.

You can live your life however you like. No one is telling you what to do. Conserving energy is not a left or right concept. It saves money, resources, the environment, etc. what's the problem?

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post #89 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That's a problem though. It's something you have to carry. Then when you sit down, you have to remove it from your shoulder. There are many times when people want to go somewhere and don't want to carry something, what then?

The whole point to taking something everywhere you go, is that it not be annoying to have.


The last thing I want is some big honkin' device clipped to my belt. Now, that would be a geeky fashion statement to go along with my assortment of pocket protectors.

m

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post #90 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

The last thing I want is some big honkin' device clipped to my belt. Now, that would be a geeky fashion statement to go along with my assortment of pocket protectors.

m

No one would ever think, these days, that having something from Apple clipped to their belt, is a geeky fashion statement.

It also shouldn't be a "big honkin'" device. That's just what I don't want to see. The Newton wasn't really all that big, and a modern version could be even smaller.
post #91 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

40 WPM on an iPhone, even in horiz position is pretty danged good. If you can do that, then a keyboard that's an inch and a half wider, and an inch higher should present no problems, unless you find it to be too wide for two thumb reach, but too small for touch. I can't answer that, it also depends on the size of your hands.

The touch screen keyboard is, surprisingly enough, quite fast; faster, I think, than a physical keypad. Of course you have to look at it. I don't think that two-thumb Blackberry typing can get much faster than 40 wpm (that's two taps per thumb per second, not counting capitalization or punctuation). So the only way to increase speed much above a landscape orientation iPhone would be touch typing. Which needs at least 7.5 inches of width to be workable (unless you have microhands). My hands are proportional to my height, which is 6'3".

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

The last thing I want is some big honkin' device clipped to my belt. Now, that would be a geeky fashion statement to go along with my assortment of pocket protectors.

No one would ever think, these days, that having something from Apple clipped to their belt, is a geeky fashion statement.

It also shouldn't be a "big honkin'" device. That's just what I don't want to see. The Newton wasn't really all that big, and a modern version could be even smaller.

Smaller than the Newton? The biggest Newton was 8" tall, which with .5" physical margins is barely enough (actually, it isn't enough) space for a touch typing touchscreen keyboard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

You could start carrying a purse. Just kidding. Seriously though, I could see men carrying some type of computer shoulder bag, it doesn't have to match your shoes.

That's a problem though. It's something you have to carry. Then when you sit down, you have to remove it from your shoulder. There are many times when people want to go somewhere and don't want to carry something, what then?

The whole point to taking something everywhere you go, is that it not be annoying to have.

It's not too terribly dreadful to carry a computer shoulder bag. Not if the dimensions are, say, 11". With a form-fitting leather cover that has a flip-up face so that you don't have to actually take it out of the bag to use it.

Lots of different ways to carry it. It's a full-featured computer. Shoulder holster, anyone?
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post #92 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by appleeinstein View Post

The touch screen keyboard is, surprisingly enough, quite fast; faster, I think, than a physical keypad. Of course you have to look at it. I don't think that two-thumb Blackberry typing can get much faster than 40 wpm (that's two taps per thumb per second, not counting capitalization or punctuation). So the only way to increase speed much above a landscape orientation iPhone would be touch typing. Which needs at least 7.5 inches of width to be workable (unless you have microhands). My hands are proportional to my height, which is 6'3".

you're a big guy, with bigger hands than usual.

Quote:
Smaller than the Newton? The biggest Newton was 8" tall, which with .5" physical margins is barely enough (actually, it isn't enough) space for a touch typing touchscreen keyboard.

A lot more of the Newton was case sounding the screen than we'd see today. If that case/screen ratio were less, the device would be smaller, without compromising the screen size, and just possibly making it a touch bigger. If you look at the bottom of the device particularly, you'll see what I mean. Of course, it could be thinner as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Newton

Quote:
It's not too terribly dreadful to carry a computer shoulder bag. Not if the dimensions are, say, 11". With a form-fitting leather cover that has a flip-up face so that you don't have to actually take it out of the bag to use it.

Lots of different ways to carry it. It's a full-featured computer. Shoulder holster, anyone?

"Not too terrible" is exactly the problem that must be avoided if people are going to take this with them.

Also, again, you're a pretty big guy. The average man is about 5' 8". The average woman is 5" 4".
post #93 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by appleeinstein View Post

What do you mean "screen flipable"? And that mockup was using a high-res promo image of the iPod Touch; did you mean making the screen larger to remove the bezel or making the device itself smaller? And landscape is absolutely the way to go in physical button placement for a device of this size. The bezel won't be so large that you can't stretch your thumb over it to manipulate keys on the left edge of the screen when you are holding it in portrait "steno pad" style.

First screen all the way to the edges like the iPhone. The flippable part is just electronic. Only put a button or two on one end bezel, like the iPhone, but allow the user to choose whether they want to hold it with the buttons on the right or left (gives totally agnostic handedness that way). Then display the screen accordingly upright, buttons always on the bottom if held portrait style. That's trivial to implement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by appleeinstein View Post

Beltable would be a great goal. Can you get a screen small enough to be beltable but large enough to run a touch type virtual keyboard?

No. But you could probably run a very useable keyboard, just not a work-primary high volume of typing one. That's what the regular desktop/laptop is for. And don't forget beltable can be put it in a tightly form-fit portfolio and stick it under the belt in the small of your back. I carry m steno pad holder this way all the time, as do most gents I know that need to use their hands constantly.
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post #94 of 180
Some interesting stuff on this thread.

Any thought that a smallish device might be able to use multi-touch when portable, then plug in a keyboard and the traditional UI pops up out of hyperspace somewhere a la Dashboard/Spaces/Fast User Switching?

I'd bite at that.
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post #95 of 180
Quote:
At the most recent Fall IDF, Intel executives flaunted an unnamed Moorestown processor, describing it as the 'chip the iPhone would have wanted.' Similar to Silverthorne, the 45nm design bundles an integrated memory controller, video encode/decode engine and graphics processor all on a single SoC.

During an ensuing demonstration, executives whipped out an iPhone-like ultra-mobile PC in apparent homage to Apple, explaining that the Moorestown-based device could run constantly for 24 hours between charges.


Two things:

1- Can't wait for Moorestown iPhones;
2- Apple will have competition with 3G intelligent phones. There is nothing like competition for prices to come down. Great news all over!

post #96 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricksbrain View Post

Some interesting stuff on this thread.

Any thought that a smallish device might be able to use multi-touch when portable, then plug in a keyboard and the traditional UI pops up out of hyperspace somewhere a la Dashboard/Spaces/Fast User Switching?

I'd bite at that.

I don't see why not, other devices such as my Palm, and Windows Mobile phones allow for this.

It's just software. It would be up to Apple, or possibly, a third party, to write drivers.
post #97 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

You are correct about superfluous computing power wasting energy, but who wants five different personal computers for various tasks. Where cooling is much more of an issue, is in data centers. That is where low power cpus and virtualization come in.

There can be good reasons to want multiple computers in a home. A media server is one. Some of us take a hobbyist approach to certain things like using old PC as CNC controllers.
Quote:

You can live your life however you like. No one is telling you what to do. Conserving energy is not a left or right concept. It saves money, resources, the environment, etc. what's the problem?

Well that is the problem people are telling us exactly what to do. In the case of automobiles they want us all in subcompact cars no matter what the circumstances. In m circumstance I drive a medium sized pickup, the primary reason being the machine has the physical size that works well with my body size. It isn't lie I've haven't looked at compacts as I actually went to a SATURN dealer when they where new, but you know what zero clearance for my head. Not to mention a few other stupid design features.

Conserving energy is not the issue in every case. Years ago I changed most of the lamps in my house to CFL's. Worked great and saved money. Couldn't do that in every socket though because CFL's don't always mesh well with the application. Given that I expect to be able to change out those CFL's with LED lighting in the future. But you know what I won't do that until the CFL's fail.

It is not like I'm against saving money or energy. The problem is people telling me how much energy I should use with out even having a clue as to what I'm using that energy for.

In any event back to the discussion of low power computing platforms. Which is what this new intel chip is all about

Dave
post #98 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricksbrain View Post

Some interesting stuff on this thread.

Any thought that a smallish device might be able to use multi-touch when portable, then plug in a keyboard and the traditional UI pops up out of hyperspace somewhere a la Dashboard/Spaces/Fast User Switching?

I'd bite at that.

This is one of the issues I have with the current iPhone software release. As far as I'm concerned it is half done and one of those half done components is the Bluetooth stack. As has already been mentioned it is a case of having the software there in this case drivers.

As far as a traditional interface you wouldn't really even need that. All you really need is to have the keyboard stream directed to the text box that currently has focus.

I see a well supported Bluetooth stack as being a key element in making the SDK a success. Simply put many applications come to mind that would do well interacting with the outside world. The best way to get outside on these devices is Bluetooth. The biggest problem right now is that Apple doesn't appear to be willing to flesh out the OS on these devices. Or is taking a very long time to do things that should be simple.

Dave
post #99 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by appleeinstein View Post

The touch screen keyboard is, surprisingly enough, quite fast; faster, I think, than a physical keypad. Of course you have to look at it. I don't think that two-thumb Blackberry typing can get much faster than 40 wpm (that's two taps per thumb per second, not counting capitalization or punctuation). So the only way to increase speed much above a landscape orientation iPhone would be touch typing. Which needs at least 7.5 inches of width to be workable (unless you have microhands). My hands are proportional to my height, which is 6'3".

I think the key here is that not many of us envision using a tablet device for gross data entry. I'm still pretty much convinced that the best way to make such a device a success is to make it a consumer of content machine. That doesn't mean to completely ignore text entry just that it can't be reasonably expected to replace a keyboard.
Quote:

Smaller than the Newton? The biggest Newton was 8" tall, which with .5" physical margins is barely enough (actually, it isn't enough) space for a touch typing touchscreen keyboard.

8 inches is a little to much but that is probably a personal issue as the individual needs would dictate optimal size. As has been pointed out by others though the key here is that the screen would expand to cover most of the front surface. In fact the only thing I'd like to see on the front besides a home key is provision for a front facing camera. That is right a device that has the potential to fully support video chat.
Quote:
It's not too terribly dreadful to carry a computer shoulder bag. Not if the dimensions are, say, 11". With a form-fitting leather cover that has a flip-up face so that you don't have to actually take it out of the bag to use it.

Well if you are a guy carrying a shoulder bag can be pretty dreadful. It doesn't really matter what is in the bag either.
Quote:
Lots of different ways to carry it. It's a full-featured computer. Shoulder holster, anyone?

Actually the shoulder holster is not a bad idea. Frankly though I could see it being placed anywhere, toolbox, brief case, back pants pocket, dash, trunk, overnight bag and a host of others. The physical size of the device though is what makes it convenient to have with you. If Apple can hit upon the right size and feature set I think people will be amazed at how much more useful and less of an hassle a good tablet can be relative to a laptop.

Note that I've had to carry laptops around for work a few years ago. There is a huge difference between carrying one across town than there is across the ocean. By the time you ass all the support hardware required you have a lot of volume and weight. By far though it is the bulk that kills you. I ended up getting a hard case and checking the damn thing. It just made everything easier. Especially getting through security as the question that always comes up is why do you need all those cables and other bits. That comes up do to not being a prototypical user and like the issue of power usage if you are out of the norm it sets up red flags.

Dave
post #100 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Well if you are a guy carrying a shoulder bag can be pretty dreadful. It doesn't really matter what is in the bag either.

Why is that?

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Someone insecure?

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post #101 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's a standard Intel x86 "M", which is run at a lower speed.

It's most likely a Pentium M 723, which runs at 1.0GHz on a 400MHz bus. Possibly underclocked. And it's a ULV processor, per this chart. It has to be, to run in such a small enclosure with so little cooling. The price difference between the low-voltage processors and the standard processors isn't that great.
post #102 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post

Why is that?

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Someone insecure?

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It would clash with your waist pack.

Ask your boyfriend for his opinion, Joey.
post #103 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Very nice discussion. I have a few questions.

1) Does anyone know when silverthorne will be available? The article says "early in 2008" but I was wondering if anyone knew of a more concrete date.

2) Is Menlow a SoC platform?

3) What are the advantages of a SoC platform.

1. Summer 2008 (as defined by Jun 20 to Sep 20) is probably the earliest you'll see a machine with Menlow. It'll be fairly seamless as all of the UMPC devices you see now will simply have the new platform inside.

2. Menlow is a 2 chip solution with a CPU and a chipset to perform I/O functions. It's very much a small version of Intel's laptop solutions. If Apple uses it, it won't be in the iPhone.

3. Well, saves PCB space making smaller devices possible such as PDAs and cell phones. It should have lower power consumption. More importantly, it's a complete integrated solution, making it easier to sell. For example, every thing and the kitchen sink should be in the chip including wireless electronics bits (WiFi, Bluetooth, GSM), graphics, media decoding, etc. Menlow doesn't really do that.
post #104 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

The only thing that would be attractive to Apple is the x86 instruction set or a subset of that and Intel's low power processes. These features can't be underestimated though. Frankly I have to agree that a two chip solution will be a hard sell, especially in something along the lines of an iPod. However considering what they have integrated into the main chip, I have to wonder if the second support chip will always be required.

Considering it doesn't have cellular wireless support, Menlow is a non-starter for cell phones. They'll need the second chip as it has the graphics there, and a bunch of other chipsets if lots of other features are wanted. It's a big platform compared to handheld ones.

Quote:
The problem is the manufactures just don't understand people perception of value for the money. At least not until ASUS came out with the Eee PC. The simply answer is that no body would be willing to spend the money asked for the devices. Especially in the corporate world and its mind set of screw the work and buy the cheapest thing that can get the job done.

Well, cheap is a big feature all on its own. I certainly agree. But it's also a laptop form factor and doesn't pretend to be a UMPC. It'll be interesting to see what it'll be like if looked like the Samsung Q1 Ultra



Or the sliders from Sony and OQO:



One interesting case study is the Nokia N810 "Internet Tablet" at $400. It's a slider like above, and if it ran Windows, I don't think it would be as successful as the Eee PC. It's one of those just a little too big for a pocket, but not powerful enough to be a laptop devices. So, it has a niche market.

Quote:
As a side note I don't like the idea that Intel will get the slot simply because it is good enough and has the i86 component locked up. Alternative hardware seems too be dropping like flies. I expect Power PC to be dead in a couple of years, mainly due ot IBM dropping the ball there. Microchip is taking a shot at MIPs and then your have ARM. I fully expect that in a coule of years we will have a two horse race with Intel and ARM the only survivors. Intel will take just about anything that requires flexibility in user level software leaving the embedded world to ARM.

Well, until the market moves away from CMOS chips (whose fabs take twice as much investment every process improvement), the nature of the technology is that there can only be one because the fabs require an exponentially increasing market, or incoming revenue stream. I don't think its automatic for Intel in the handheld space though since it's proven very difficult to use the Windows monopoly as a wedge. It's curious why MS hasn't broken Blackberry compatibility yet. I guess the anti-trust suit did its job.
post #105 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Half the battery life of the iPhone is clearly better than 1/4th the battery life...but not quite there yet.

Battery life is a little bit more complicated than this. I'm sure the screen is 1/3rd of the power budget, cellular radio is another 1/3rd, the rest is the computing chips.

Quote:
IMHO, let Intel get to 55mW @ 600Mhz for an X86 CPU (10x improvement) and ARM is in big trouble in its home turf, 2 chip implementation or not.

Well, that ain't going to happen? You're thinking 550 mW? 550 mW TDP is the target for Silverthorne, I think, not Menlow. In 2008, most ARM handhelds will probably be under 250 mW, but as we noted, it's all about clock cycles.

A 600 MHz Penryn will make Flash usable, barely. I'm not so sure about ARM.

Quote:
1280x720 or perhaps 1280x768 or 1366x768. You might as well go WXGA if you get to 1280x640.

No, no, no. The photochop of a TiBook was all about maintaining the laptop form factor, maintaining keyboard usability, maintaining the usability of the existing operating system, while producing as small a device as possible.

So, I'm imagining using the same MacBook keyboard, and eliminated the white space on the sides and the palm rests & trackpad to make a laptop or clamshell device on the order of 10" x 6" x 0.75" and <1.5 lbs. It may even be possible to keep the optical drive in a device of such size with Menlow sized PCBs. Add in a 1.8" 160 GB drive, 1 SO-DIMM slot, and you've got yourself a nice portable video and office system. This leaves you with a 10" screen at 2:1 aspect ratios (9 x 4.5 inches) at 1280 x 640. The keyboard would be the current MacBook size. A nipple / micro-track ball is required. It can be augmented with multi-touch.
post #106 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

No, no, no. The photochop of a TiBook was all about maintaining the laptop form factor, maintaining keyboard usability, maintaining the usability of the existing operating system, while producing as small a device as possible.

I think any small Apple device (larger than an iPhone, smaller than a subnotebook) would most likely use an onscreen keyboard on a multi-touch display. A significantly larger screen than the iPhone would allow the keyboard to be larger, easier to use.

I just don't see Apple putting a tiny physical keyboard on such a device after doing the iPhone.
post #107 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

I just don't see Apple putting a tiny physical keyboard on such a device after doing the iPhone.

Especially after SJ spent so much time explaining why tiny keyboards squashed into a small space are bad.

That's another part of the genius of the Multi-Touch interface, it removes the need for physical input devices and makes the software smarter. Any tablet format Mac will use Multi-Touch - unless we see a 12" notebook revival. That is pretty unlikely given the current state of play...by that I mean, they have all the hardware and software available TODAY, why go backwards and use a physical keyboard if you just spend so much time/money/effort to come up with a way NOT to have it there at all?

Z
post #108 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by mowenbrown View Post

So is the power savings here big enough to offset the increased consumption of 3G radios?

The power savings of Silverthorne over the ARM CPU currently used in the iPhone is around -500%. There is simply no comparison. Maybe it isn't a big issue when the power consumption of all the other components are taken into consideration.

However the motherboard size requirement of Silverthorne (7cm by 14cm) is huge compared with the iPhone's 3cm by 5cm or so. I'd say that rules out its use completely. That iPhone motherboard also includes all of the technologies required for a mobile phone with large amounts of storage.

This CPU will not be used in a future iPhone, not in 2008 anyway, and not in 2009 either.

However it will clearly be used in something from Apple. I'd imagine that version two of the AppleTV will utilise this platform Also I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple making a mobile device that's like 2x the size of the iPhone with an 800x480 display that uses this system (although why they wouldn't leverage their iPhone platform for this is beyond me) that would compete against other small tablet-like devices in this rapidly growing product area.

I very much doubt that these will run desktop Mac OS X. They'll all be running a special variant for the device's purpose.
post #109 of 180
I'm glad to see the AI board finally back to the way they were.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #110 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

I think any small Apple device (larger than an iPhone, smaller than a subnotebook) would most likely use an onscreen keyboard on a multi-touch display. A significantly larger screen than the iPhone would allow the keyboard to be larger, easier to use.

Yeah. That's why I said, "So, I'm imagining using the same MacBook keyboard, and eliminated the white space on the sides and the palm rests & trackpad to make a laptop or clamshell device on the order of 10" x 6" x 0.75" and <1.5 lbs. It may even be possible to keep the optical drive in a device of such size with Menlow sized PCBs. Add in a 1.8" 160 GB drive, 1 SO-DIMM slot, and you've got yourself a nice portable video and office system. This leaves you with a 10" screen at 2:1 aspect ratios (9 x 4.5 inches) at 1280 x 640. The keyboard would be the current MacBook size. A nipple / micro-track ball is required. It can be augmented with multi-touch."

Heck, the MacBook keyboard should be an interchangeable part! And vinea was right. After doing some math, a 1280 x 720 or 1366 x 768 screen would be great for this "subnotebook." Marketing and pricing will be interesting though. At $700 to $800 it could eat into MacBook sales, which won't be a good thing. It'll have to increase marketshare to be worthwhile.

Quote:
I just don't see Apple putting a tiny physical keyboard on such a device after doing the iPhone.

Never say never.
post #111 of 180
Some people are still having problems with the iphones lack of push button keyboards . They use them and when they break them in an accident, they rebuy blackberry or another product . Not an apple iphone . And they used it for 6 or more weeks before they dropped it in the puddle. It happens. Teenagers are much faster with a button phone . But they LOVE fashion , so apple has them hooked. They have to make most of these devices in different sizes and styles and designs to attract everyone they want to sell to . Diversity of sizes and cost differences hurt margins. Start with one device. They did . Almost everyone complained but the stock holders. How many sizes were there in the first computer screen ? They are just getting started. They may not hook everyone . Not all these devices will last long. Look at the 4 gig iphone. I said Apple stck to 165 by Halloween. I was lucky and was right. I said 215 by 12/ 25 /07 . Looks like it will be 1/17/08 before we see 215. I can wait . Your iphone will output thru its UBS cable as Apple is expanding what it and the new devices will do. Touch sensitive keyboards first. Soon it will be an assortment of software and hardware choices in the phone, computer, game , business ,,,etc. .More devices than you can shake a stick at and most add on able . There will be more adult toys to come . I only sold a little stock to live on and I'm riding the wave. Amsterdam was nice place for a vacation last month and just got back from Jamaica yesterday. Boy, do I hate wireless . Give me speed or give me wired. Slow wireless sucks. Wont use it in my house. Videos over the internet wireless suck. Love to be a fanboy when it is makin me rich . But not all Apple products make me happy. I'm just the average consumer. Some of the the Apple products are great sellers. Some ain't .I think their airport sucks and refuse to use it for games or video.
post #112 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

Yeah. That's why I said, "So, I'm imagining using the same MacBook keyboard, and eliminated the white space on the sides and the palm rests & trackpad to make a laptop or clamshell device on the order of 10" x 6" x 0.75" and <1.5 lbs. It may even be possible to keep the optical drive in a device of such size with Menlow sized PCBs. Add in a 1.8" 160 GB drive, 1 SO-DIMM slot, and you've got yourself a nice portable video and office system. This leaves you with a 10" screen at 2:1 aspect ratios (9 x 4.5 inches) at 1280 x 640. The keyboard would be the current MacBook size. A nipple / micro-track ball is required. It can be augmented with multi-touch."

Heck, the MacBook keyboard should be an interchangeable part! And vinea was right. After doing some math, a 1280 x 720 or 1366 x 768 screen would be great for this "subnotebook." Marketing and pricing will be interesting though. At $700 to $800 it could eat into MacBook sales, which won't be a good thing. It'll have to increase marketshare to be worthwhile.



Never say never.

Exactly. Top selling lineups always come out with multiversions.
post #113 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

.

Well if you are a guy carrying a shoulder bag can be pretty dreadful. It doesn't really matter what is in the bag either.

Actually the shoulder holster is not a bad idea. Frankly though I could see it being placed anywhere, toolbox, brief case, back pants pocket, dash, trunk, overnight bag and a host of others. The physical size of the device though is what makes it convenient to have with you. If Apple can hit upon the right size and feature set I think people will be amazed at how much more useful and less of an hassle a good tablet can be relative to a laptop.

How you carry the device is a huge consideration in it's marketability. If you are going to toss it around in a tool box, dash board, etc, it better be ruggedized. Like the UPS driver who has a tablet sized device, it often falls on the ground but has big heavy plastic case margins to absorb the shock. Apple designs sleek, elegant devices that need protection inside a pocket, case, or bag.

Personally, I carry my MacBook Pro everywhere in a leather briefcase which has a shoulder strap. It could be a little smaller and lighter but I don't think anyone is going to call me gay - of course, I'm pretty big, muscular, and ride a Harley, so that may offset the shoulder bag look a little bit.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #114 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by drjjones View Post

Some people are still having problems with the iphones lack of push button keyboards . They use them and when they break them in an accident, they rebuy blackberry or another product . Not an apple iphone . And they used it for 6 or more weeks before they dropped it in the puddle. It happens. Teenagers are much faster with a button phone . But they LOVE fashion , so apple has them hooked. They have to make most of these devices in different sizes and styles and designs to attract everyone they want to sell to . Diversity of sizes and cost differences hurt margins. Start with one device. They did . Almost everyone complained but the stock holders. How many sizes were there in the first computer screen ? They are just getting started. They may not hook everyone . Not all these devices will last long. Look at the 4 gig iphone. I said Apple stck to 165 by Halloween. I was lucky and was right. I said 215 by 12/ 25 /07 . Looks like it will be 1/17/08 before we see 215. I can wait . Your iphone will output thru its UBS cable as Apple is expanding what it and the new devices will do. Touch sensitive keyboards first. Soon it will be an assortment of software and hardware choices in the phone, computer, game , business ,,,etc. .More devices than you can shake a stick at and most add on able . There will be more adult toys to come . I only sold a little stock to live on and I'm riding the wave. Amsterdam was nice place for a vacation last month and just got back from Jamaica yesterday. Boy, do I hate wireless . Give me speed or give me wired. Slow wireless sucks. Wont use it in my house. Videos over the internet wireless suck. Love to be a fanboy when it is makin me rich . But not all Apple products make me happy. I'm just the average consumer. Some of the the Apple products are great sellers. Some ain't .I think their airport sucks and refuse to use it for games or video.

Paragraphs, paragraphs!
post #115 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Paragraphs, paragraphs!

I flunked english and spelling and french but made it through dental school anyway. Thank goodness they were tolerant.
post #116 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Personally, I carry my MacBook Pro everywhere in a leather briefcase which has a shoulder strap. It could be a little smaller and lighter but I don't think anyone is going to call me gay - of course, I'm pretty big, muscular, and ride a Harley, so that may offset the shoulder bag look a little bit.



You asked for it!
post #117 of 180
You know, I've oft tried to understand the purpose of such rampant speculation... sadly to no avail. I truly wish I had such excessive amounts of time to ponder/debate about what future products Apple may or may not release down the road... and even if I did, I'm certain I could find much more constructive and worthwhile endeavors to put my mind to.

It's the same vicious cycle time and time again... everyone gets all worked up over absolutely nothing and then ends up being horribly disappointed when Apple doesn't release exactly what they were speculating about. How is that healthy in any way, shape, or form? Unless one has been clinically diagnosed with some form of OCD, is there any reason why they cannot wait until Apple announces the damned product? Just imagine how much time, energy, and grief everyone would save if they did just that!

I'm just as much of an Apple/Mac lover as the next person and have been for some twenty years now. The reason I am is simply because I believe Apple offers, especially with the Mac, a superior product compared to anything available from every other competing manufacturer. Subsequently, the majority of my time is spent using my Macs for what they are - tools... means to accomplish a specified end. I've always been happy with what Apple has offered me and I can't imagine any reason as to why I wouldn't be so in the future.

A very small percentage of what time I have left is spent giving people online a wake-up call. I'm not going to be so brash as to say something along the lines of "get a life," but at the very least try exploring the world outside your computer screen.

Bottom line - Apple is going to release whatever the hell they want and they don't give a rat's behind about what any of you want or think. Furthermore, whatever they do release - you're all going to buy anyway... they know this... you know this, so accept things for what they are and move on.

/end rant
post #118 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

How you carry the device is a huge consideration in it's marketability. If you are going to toss it around in a tool box, dash board, etc, it better be ruggedized. Like the UPS driver who has a tablet sized device, it often falls on the ground but has big heavy plastic case margins to absorb the shock. Apple designs sleek, elegant devices that need protection inside a pocket, case, or bag.

Personally, I carry my MacBook Pro everywhere in a leather briefcase which has a shoulder strap. It could be a little smaller and lighter but I don't think anyone is going to call me gay - of course, I'm pretty big, muscular, and ride a Harley, so that may offset the shoulder bag look a little bit.

sorry couldn't resist...

http://dykesonbikes.org/1_pride.html
I heard that geeks are a dime a dozen, I just want to find out who's been passin' out the dimes
----- Fred Blassie 1964
Reply
I heard that geeks are a dime a dozen, I just want to find out who's been passin' out the dimes
----- Fred Blassie 1964
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post #119 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCJ001 View Post

You asked for it!

Thanks for sharing that. At least I don't have to worry about getting my ass kicked for hanging a computer bag from my shoulder. I guess I've just always had things hanging from my shoulders, be it women or M16s.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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post #120 of 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigc View Post

sorry couldn't resist...

http://dykesonbikes.org/1_pride.html

It seems you are having a little gender confusion, which is understandable, but I'm here to help, so let me clear it up for you. See, the dykes are the GIRLS who can beat the sh*t out of you.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

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