Originally Posted by segovius
I think most thinking people will be able to assimilate the notion that life under Saddam was better than it is now without equating that to support for Saddam.
That you cannot do this says more about your own limitations than anything else but as Hassan says, best to take it there. This is not the place.
Of course it isn't about Saddam. It is about an authoritarian power structure that will keep down the people you don't want in power so the "people" you do want in power can assume it.
You've done this time and time again, ignoring each time the morality of what it takes to grab and hold power. You shrug your shoulders time and again and ask, "Why doesn't they U.S. just bring about X result with its military and then give the power to Y quasi-populist progressive group." Each time I ask you about the sentiments of each not lining up, you ignore it. You can never explain how "the people" never seem to gain power or perhaps fail to realize that gaining power has something to do with ignoring the wishes of certain people.
Re your ramblings above, I think you'll find that I do not start five threads a week on this or any other issue - but be that as it may, the part of your rantings that are really verging on the obscene is your unthinking dismissal of 'the people' in such a quasi-mocking and ignorant way.
It sounds as if you are trying to blame them for what happens to them. But then that's probably because that's what you are actually doing.
You are starting to sound like one of those judges that blame women for wearing short skirts or lipstick if they get raped trumpt...you are veering to the Taleban-esque.
Well then when the government drives me off into the desert, plugs me and drops me in a hole, you will look away. Worse still you will probably start a thread about how terrible it was the government didn't plug more of me since now one of me killed one of you with a bomb and gun.
Oh wait.. that would be what you are eluding to in this thread isn't it. That darn government is so repressive and authoritarian that it can keep down the left, but it sure can't seem to stop the right from killing the left and the left from killing the right while they sit happy and fat in the center. Wake up.
If you support the power, you support this murder. You repeatedly call for power to be consolidated and exercised. You just want it exercised and consolidated on behalf of "the people" and then handed over to them. When asked what happens to the people who don't want this power and consolidated exercised against them, you shrug your shoulders and ignore the post.
I know you seem to have as much affection for Musharaf as you falsely claim I have for Saddam but I would personally throttle it back a bit.
People are dying....
I don't have much affection for either. However I also see the flat out ignorance in continuing to demand an authoritarian power structure while bemoaning the fact that it doesn't roll the way you want it to go. That is just stupid.
Originally Posted by Tulkas
Then it is quite possible that she was killed by those that do not believe democracy and Islam are compatible and are will to kill for it. Something you were espousing not so long ago. For those with that belief, this is a win-win situation indeed.
Note to Hassan, giant and others... I am not the only one who has noticed this trait with Seg.
Originally Posted by segovius
Yes, I agree. For sure she was killed by some Islamist faction that subscribes to a belief such as you state.
My point was the degree to which the ruling Junta 'looked the other way' or contained elements that were actively involved. For sure they would have been aware of the possibility of such an assassination every time Ms Bhutto appeared in public.
Perhaps they were merely less assiduous than they might have been.
Practically all governments can and do work with 'the enemy' if the outcome yields more profit to them than not doing so.
That's just the way it is. It's like that in the West so you can bet your @ss it is like that in the ME.
So we come down to the same nonsensical argument again. Those with the ability to bring about force either did, or couldn't or wouldn't in the way you want. Could this be any more nonsensical?
Originally Posted by giant
We should all defer to trumptman and sdw2001 since everyone knows they have extensive knowledge of pakistan's political situation.
giant's idea of debate is to declare everyone, all their sources and ideas that disagree with his to be ignorant.
There is already plenty of proof if this. Don't argue with him. giant has his blinders on and everything you post is just ignorant nonsense to him. He will you tell you so repeatedly. He will also insult your intelligence, question everything about your background, make repeated claims about you with regard to ignorance, racism, hatefulness, etc.
Just take this post and make it a sticky. Whenever you see giant demonstrating one or all of these above, just ignore him. You can't discuss with someone who is wearing blinders. It isn't debate, it is attempting to argue someone through their own ignorance.