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Bhutto Killed in Suicide Attack

post #1 of 190
Thread Starter 
Reports are coming in that Bhutto has been killed.

Whatever anyone thinks of her and the Pakistan situation this is very, very bad news for us all.

I'm hoping it is a false alarm but it's looking like it's true....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #2 of 190
She's dead. Expected. Honestly, who didn't think this would happen?

Oh, I know...the ones who think Iran is the terrorist, nuclear apocalyptic threat.

Wake up idiots.
post #3 of 190
Thread Starter 
Yes, bound to happen.

At least here - for once - is someone who actually did really believe in the Democratic process and was prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice for it...unlike the weasels we are addled with in the West who make other do the dying and don't believe in it anyway.

On another note - or is it the same note? - the BBC are reporting that Bhutto apparently had evidence that Musharaf was behind the threats to her life and was perhaps sponsoring Islamist factions to carry out such an attack.

Whether or not this was actually the case it seems that Bhutto believed so and has left some evidence to this effect to be disclosed in the event of her death. We shall see.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #4 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

She's dead. Expected. Honestly, who didn't think this would happen?

Oh, I know...the ones who think Iran is the terrorist, nuclear apocalyptic threat.

Wake up idiots.

How dare you use her death to take a cheap shot at those with whom you disagree.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #5 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

She's dead. Expected. Honestly, who didn't think this would happen?

Seconded. I'm somewhat surprised Musharraf didn't just have her arrested and 'disappeared', instead of going through the trouble of arranging an assassination.

Very bad news for Pakistan.
You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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You need skeptics, especially when the science gets very big and monolithic. -James Lovelock
The Story of Stuff
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post #6 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoster View Post

Seconded. I'm somewhat surprised Musharraf didn't just have her arrested and 'disappeared', instead of going through the trouble of arranging an assassination.

Very bad news for Pakistan.

There's no evidence he was involved. Before you claim that, some evidence would be nice.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #7 of 190
Weren't seg and art the two nutjobs making the case that Iraq was a dreamland before the U.S. came in and wrecked the authoritarian utopia Saddam had established there?

You two should be thrilled. Now Musharaf can open the hidden torture camps, begin ethnic cleansing and establish a reign of "peace" according to the nonsense you two spouted in that other thread.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #8 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

There's no evidence he was involved. Before you claim that, some evidence would be nice.

It'll come out in the days to come. And there'll be plenty of time to ignore the facts and obfuscate when it does.

Meanwhile, because this tragedy has only just occurred, you have a unique chance (for you) until the facts do emerge; you can legitimately claim there is no evidence and be correct for once.....

Make the most of it.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #9 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Weren't seg and art the two nutjobs making the case that Iraq was a dreamland before the U.S. came in and wrecked the authoritarian utopia Saddam had established there?

You two should be thrilled. Now Musharaf can open the hidden torture camps, begin ethnic cleansing and establish a reign of "peace" according to the nonsense you two spouted in that other thread.

Well, you didn't offer any evidence for your contrary view there. I like to think that is because you are vaguely aware of the subject and know you don't have any basis for your view...I am painfully aware the truth is probably far more sad than that though.

The sad truth is really that you know not of what you continually speak.

Why would we be thrilled? Another US backed dictator murders the Democratic opposition again. ANd if he did not authorize it - and it is highly likely he did - then certainly he is responsible by negligence and failing to protect the citizens.

But then, as we all know, Democracy was never on his agenda - unlike Bhutto - and it is her who winds up dead and Islamists get blamed, WOT is justified (again). Bush can parrot some more about why we need to support Musharaf and fight 'al Qaeda'.

Everyone's a winner.

Except the people. Oh and Ms Bhutto of course.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #10 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

- the BBC are reporting that Bhutto apparently had evidence that Musharaf was behind the threats to her life and was perhaps sponsoring Islamist factions to carry out such an attack.
.

Where?
post #11 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Weren't seg and art the two nutjobs making the case that Iraq was a dreamland before the U.S. came in and wrecked the authoritarian utopia Saddam had established there?

You two should be thrilled. Now Musharaf can open the hidden torture camps, begin ethnic cleansing and establish a reign of "peace" according to the nonsense you two spouted in that other thread.

If you have an objection or an argument to make, make it in the appropriate thread, Nick.
post #12 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post

Where?

It was an interview on Radio Five Live with Bhutto's UK representative - didn't get his name - who claimed that he had had a conversation with her recently where she said that if she died then there was evidence lodged somewhere that would be revealed.

Maybe you can find it on their podcast was about an hour ago.

NB: apologies if I was misleading - should have said: 'BBC is reporting on someone who claims this' as clearly they are not making that statement themselves. Genuine mistake.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #13 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It'll come out in the days to come. And there'll be plenty of time to ignore the facts and obfuscate when it does.

Meanwhile, because this tragedy has only just occurred, you have a unique chance (for you) until the facts do emerge; you can legitimately claim there is no evidence and be correct for once.....

Make the most of it.


You are relentless. What possible motivation would I have for ignoring facts if he looks like he's responsible? It's an extremely serious allegation, and your response is simply that he'll be proved guilty soon enough? I want to see some facts showing he was responsible. I mean, imagine...asking for actual evidence of someone's guilt. Seems me you have no problem with indicting someone as guiltier-than-sin, so long as you happen to not to like him. But if it's a terrorist in Guantanamo Bay? Well that person needs legal counsel and civilian trial. Gotcha.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #14 of 190
Come on SDW, it's possible Musharaff wasn't involved, but it's just common sense that he was. It's one thing to be on a jury trying him, it's another to just use common sense to reach a reasonable conclusion.
post #15 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Well, you didn't offer any evidence for your contrary view there. I like to think that is because you are vaguely aware of the subject and know you don't have any basis for your view...I am painfully aware the truth is probably far more sad than that though.

I didn't offer it because I don't waste my time with fantasies.

Quote:
The sad truth is really that you know not of what you continually speak.

You are right. The world keeps pissing in your cornflakes and getting it wrong because you are all-knowing.

Quote:
Why would we be thrilled? Another US backed dictator murders the Democratic opposition again. ANd if he did not authorize it - and it is highly likely he did - then certainly he is responsible by negligence and failing to protect the citizens.

Because when that U.S. backed dictator murders the democratic opposition, they do it on the left (stopping the people) and the right (stopping the religious extremists) so that the all might dollar can be chased. When you say another U.S. backed dictator you mean another Saddam (among others) who you praised to death in the other thread.

What you should do is really admit that if all the other people got out of the way and just let the people YOU want to take power do so then you would be happy. However if you suspect that won't happen, you are just as happy to let an authoritarian government drive opposition to them off into the desert, plug them in the head and drop them into a hole.

Quote:
But then, as we all know, Democracy was never on his agenda - unlike Bhutto - and it is her who winds up dead and Islamists get blamed, WOT is justified (again). Bush can parrot some more about why we need to support Musharaf and fight 'al Qaeda'.

Everyone's a winner.

Except the people. Oh and Ms Bhutto of course.

Yes "the people" who never seem to rise up and do what is right and half the time when "the people" do rise up it is with suicide bombs against those who claim to support "the people" but don't support their backward and primitive notions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post

If you have an objection or an argument to make, make it in the appropriate thread, Nick.

Are you kidding me? Seg starts five of them a week on this topic and spews it through all the rest of the topics. I simply eluded to something he said that was hypocritical when noting what he said here. I expressed my disbelief at his hypocrisy in the appropriate place. You can go reference the initial source.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #16 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

....snip.......

I think most thinking people will be able to assimilate the notion that life under Saddam was better than it is now without equating that to support for Saddam.

That you cannot do this says more about your own limitations than anything else but as Hassan says, best to take it there. This is not the place.


Re your ramblings above, I think you'll find that I do not start five threads a week on this or any other issue - but be that as it may, the part of your rantings that are really verging on the obscene is your unthinking dismissal of 'the people' in such a quasi-mocking and ignorant way.

It sounds as if you are trying to blame them for what happens to them. But then that's probably because that's what you are actually doing.

You are starting to sound like one of those judges that blame women for wearing short skirts or lipstick if they get raped trumpt...you are veering to the Taleban-esque.

I know you seem to have as much affection for Musharaf as you falsely claim I have for Saddam but I would personally throttle it back a bit.

People are dying....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #17 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yes, bound to happen.

At least here - for once - is someone who actually did really believe in the Democratic process and was prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice for it...unlike the weasels we are addled with in the West who make other do the dying and don't believe in it anyway.

Then it is quite possible that she was killed by those that do not believe democracy and Islam are compatible and are will to kill for it. Something you were espousing not so long ago. For those with that belief, this is a win-win situation indeed.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #18 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Then it is quite possible that she was killed by those that do not believe democracy and Islam are compatible and are will to kill for it. Something you were espousing not so long ago. For those with that belief, this is a win-win situation indeed.

Yes, I agree. For sure she was killed by some Islamist faction that subscribes to a belief such as you state.

My point was the degree to which the ruling Junta 'looked the other way' or contained elements that were actively involved. For sure they would have been aware of the possibility of such an assassination every time Ms Bhutto appeared in public.

Perhaps they were merely less assiduous than they might have been.

Practically all governments can and do work with 'the enemy' if the outcome yields more profit to them than not doing so.

That's just the way it is. It's like that in the West so you can bet your @ss it is like that in the ME.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #19 of 190
We should all defer to trumptman and sdw2001 since everyone knows they have extensive knowledge of pakistan's political situation.
post #20 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

What possible motivation would I have for ignoring facts

Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #21 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

For sure they would have been aware of the possibility of such an assassination every time Ms Bhutto appeared in public.

As was Ms Bhutto. As was every person even marginally familiar with issues in the area. Only realistic way to even try to keep her safe would be to remove her from the country and put her under heavy, isolated, armed protection.
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Perhaps they were merely less assiduous than they might have been.

Could be. Could be they were involved. Could be that they screwed up. Could be that the group(s) involved planned well or got lucky. Could be they assisted directly or through malicious negligence. Could be they just weren't up to the task.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #22 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

How dare you use her death to take a cheap shot at those with whom you disagree.

Oh, you're rich. I expected this from you. As much as I expect your continued ignorance of the potential powder keg this country is compared to Iran.

This will show you how distorted your views are of the region and the information (propaganda) that distorted your brain on this in the first place.

Pakistan's fuse is now lit. Expect civil war.
post #23 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Weren't seg and art the two nutjobs making the case that Iraq was a dreamland before the U.S. came in and wrecked the authoritarian utopia Saddam had established there?

You two should be thrilled. Now Musharaf can open the hidden torture camps, begin ethnic cleansing and establish a reign of "peace" according to the nonsense you two spouted in that other thread.

Get coal in your stocking Nick? I never, ever said that and you know it. What I have said time and time again is that Pakistan was more of a potential danger in this region than any combined.

Emotions are running high with the right-wingers today. You've been duped (AGAIN). Deal with it.
post #24 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Come on SDW, it's possible Musharaff wasn't involved, but it's just common sense that he was. It's one thing to be on a jury trying him, it's another to just use common sense to reach a reasonable conclusion.

It's reasonable to look at the method of dispatch.

Secular killers try to survive assassination attempts.

Islamists believe martyrdom yields rewards in the afterlife.
post #25 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Oh, you're rich. I expected this from you. As much as I expect your continued ignorance of the potential powder keg this country is compared to Iran.

This will show you how distorted your views are of the region and the information (propaganda) that distorted your brain on this in the first place.

Pakistan's fuse is now lit. Expect civil war.

And expect no elections.

And maybe even- conveniently - a new front in the WOT.

'Surge' Of US Special Forces Expected In Pakistan In Early 2008
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #26 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Oh, you're rich. I expected this from you. As much as I expect your continued ignorance of the potential powder keg this country is compared to Iran.

This will show you how distorted your views are of the region and the information (propaganda) that distorted your brain on this in the first place.

Pakistan's fuse is now lit. Expect civil war.

Not if Musharraf can help it.

You should be glad we have a strong advocate of democracy and a stalwart ally in the WoT in Musharraf.

May she Rest in Peace, but she was a snake and her assassination is not the blow to America's hopes for liberty in that part of the world that some would have us believe.
post #27 of 190
Wrong Horse

Thursday November 01, 2007 (1347 PST)

US Foreign Policy experts are once again backing a wrong horse in Pakistan.
This time openly instead of doing it covertly. Musharraf is being pressured for power sharing with BB and to accommodate her all demands. Ostensibly, it is being done with a view to creating an alternate basket to put their eggs into instead of placing them all only in Musharraf’s basket. However, what the Anglo Americans are not realising that by doing so they are buying the ill will of the Pakistanis. Benazir and her husband have been allegedly the worst ever looters and plunderers of the national wealth in Pakistan. BB is, therefore, regarded a corrupt ruler having stashed about US$ 1.5 billion in the foreign banks. And, as far as her being a democrat in concerned, suffice it to say, she doesn’t enjoy that image either. In fact she is reputed to be an autocrat of the order who would not tolerate even her own mother who was made the Chairperson of the party after the death of her husband – Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto (ZAB) - the founder of the PPP.

Benazir first manoeuvred to share the Chair with the mother but soon engineered her ouster ignominiously getting herself installed as the Life Chairperson of the party. What a democrat – the ‘life long Chairperson’ of the party. A party that has NEVER held its party elections ever since its inception – 40 years ago! The poor mother is invalid and hospitalised for the last many years in London and hardly any one in the public knows of her present plight. Though BB has been to London umpteen times but one has never heard of her visiting the bed ridden mother there. Probably her only fault was that she wished to pass the ZAB mantle in the Eastern tradition to the male heir, the eldest son Murtaza Ali Bhutto and the BB has not forgotten it.

Murtaza Bhutto was murdered under mysterious circumstances in police firing near his house in Karachi when Benazir herself was the Prime Minister of the country. Murtaza’s widow Ghinwa and daughter Fatima allegedly point their fingers towards BB and her husband for the dastardly crime and an FIR to this effect is pending with the Karachi police against the husband Mr. Asif Ali Zardari. The Life Chairperson rules the party with an iron hand and no one, including the founding fathers of the party, dare do anything without her explicit prior permission. Quite a few disillusioned stalwarts have left the party and only recently the two most important and very senior members of the party, the ex-Governor Punjab Mustafa Khar whom ZAB used to call his son and heir apparent in preference to his real sons, and General (Retd) Naseer ullah Khan Babur who was a staunch supporter of the BB and was her Interior Minister, have left the party only a few days ago. They parted the ways with the BB for her having negotiated a deal with a military dictator which, according to them, has tarnished the image of the party, compromised its principles, betrayed the party workers and their long arduous struggle for the restoration of democracy. They allege that only Benazir and her husband have gained from the deal, absolving them of all corruption charges and withdrawal of the court cases against them in Pakistan, Switzerland etc. She doesn’t seem to be much disturbed by such desertions in the party as nothing matters to her except her own self interest. She is shrewd, an eloquent speaker and knows the art of winning the hearts of the naïve and gullible masses even with her hollow promises. Not only that, she can have her way in the international political arena as well. Though her influencing the Yankees is understandable yet, her winning over the British - respected the world over for their mature and far reaching policies - is rather amusing. Such is her spell that both are openly pressuring Musharraf for sharing power with her. What baffles most here is as to what is the compulsion for General Musharraf to yield to such pressures and shake hands with the most corrupt politician whose is known to have plundered the national exchequer of at least 1.5 billion dollars?! A very common perception prevailing in Pakistan is that the UK and USA governments think that she would be able to help eradicate the extremism and restore full democracy in Pakistan. What they don’t realize it that by thrusting upon the nation an allegedly corrupt of the order of Benazir, they are antagonising the people further to the extent that they are losing the support of even the moderates also along with the religious parties, who have already no love lost for them.

On the top of it all, the BB has made the blunder of issuing statements like that she will handover AQ Khan to the IAEA for questioning and also that she will permit the NATO and US forces to bomb the tribal areas, if required, etc. etc. This has left little doubt in the mind of the general public as to whose agenda she is carrying and shall follow and implement if elected to power and installed as the PM for the third time. This general perception is not only damaging the Americans and the British in Pakistan but also increasing the popular support in favour of the Islamists who are generally considered to be aligned with the Jihadis and extremists.

Such a situation is not only detrimental for the Anglo-Americans but highly fraught with dangers for Pakistan itself. If the extremists come to power, it will drive Pakistan further backwards and its hopes of achieving enlightened moderation and modern progress and development will be severely affected. It is time that our western benefactors, if they wish well for Pakistan, had pulled their hands off from supporting Benazir as their such support for her is having a negative effect in Pakistan.


http://paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?193379
post #28 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

And expect no elections.

And maybe even- conveniently - a new front in the WOT.

'Surge' Of US Special Forces Expected In Pakistan In Early 2008

Let's ALL of us keep your prediction in mind.



I believe there WILL be elections.
post #29 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo2 View Post

Let's ALL of us keep your prediction in mind.



I believe there WILL be elections.

How can you have elections when all the opponents are dead or being shot at?

Quote:
Four people were shot dead at a campaign rally for former Pakistan prime minister Nawaz Sharif on Thursday, police said, and Sharif's party blamed rival supporters of President Pervez Musharraf.

The Muslim League-N party said 17 of its people were also wounded in the shooting, which comes less than two weeks before what has been a bitterly contested parliamentary election. Police said three people were hurt.

The violence threatens to worsen the political turmoil in Pakistan, where Islamic militants have vowed to disrupt the January 8 vote and Musharraf's opponents have accused the president of planning to rig the election.

Witnesses said the gunfire appeared to have come from a nearby compound belonging to the rival Pakistan Muslim League-Q which backs Musharraf, but this was not immediately confirmed by police.
post #30 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I think most thinking people will be able to assimilate the notion that life under Saddam was better than it is now without equating that to support for Saddam.

That you cannot do this says more about your own limitations than anything else but as Hassan says, best to take it there. This is not the place.

Of course it isn't about Saddam. It is about an authoritarian power structure that will keep down the people you don't want in power so the "people" you do want in power can assume it.

You've done this time and time again, ignoring each time the morality of what it takes to grab and hold power. You shrug your shoulders time and again and ask, "Why doesn't they U.S. just bring about X result with its military and then give the power to Y quasi-populist progressive group." Each time I ask you about the sentiments of each not lining up, you ignore it. You can never explain how "the people" never seem to gain power or perhaps fail to realize that gaining power has something to do with ignoring the wishes of certain people.

Quote:
Re your ramblings above, I think you'll find that I do not start five threads a week on this or any other issue - but be that as it may, the part of your rantings that are really verging on the obscene is your unthinking dismissal of 'the people' in such a quasi-mocking and ignorant way.

It sounds as if you are trying to blame them for what happens to them. But then that's probably because that's what you are actually doing.

You are starting to sound like one of those judges that blame women for wearing short skirts or lipstick if they get raped trumpt...you are veering to the Taleban-esque.

Well then when the government drives me off into the desert, plugs me and drops me in a hole, you will look away. Worse still you will probably start a thread about how terrible it was the government didn't plug more of me since now one of me killed one of you with a bomb and gun.

Oh wait.. that would be what you are eluding to in this thread isn't it. That darn government is so repressive and authoritarian that it can keep down the left, but it sure can't seem to stop the right from killing the left and the left from killing the right while they sit happy and fat in the center. Wake up.

If you support the power, you support this murder. You repeatedly call for power to be consolidated and exercised. You just want it exercised and consolidated on behalf of "the people" and then handed over to them. When asked what happens to the people who don't want this power and consolidated exercised against them, you shrug your shoulders and ignore the post.

Quote:
I know you seem to have as much affection for Musharaf as you falsely claim I have for Saddam but I would personally throttle it back a bit.

People are dying....

I don't have much affection for either. However I also see the flat out ignorance in continuing to demand an authoritarian power structure while bemoaning the fact that it doesn't roll the way you want it to go. That is just stupid.

BTW...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Then it is quite possible that she was killed by those that do not believe democracy and Islam are compatible and are will to kill for it. Something you were espousing not so long ago. For those with that belief, this is a win-win situation indeed.

Note to Hassan, giant and others... I am not the only one who has noticed this trait with Seg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yes, I agree. For sure she was killed by some Islamist faction that subscribes to a belief such as you state.

My point was the degree to which the ruling Junta 'looked the other way' or contained elements that were actively involved. For sure they would have been aware of the possibility of such an assassination every time Ms Bhutto appeared in public.

Perhaps they were merely less assiduous than they might have been.

Practically all governments can and do work with 'the enemy' if the outcome yields more profit to them than not doing so.

That's just the way it is. It's like that in the West so you can bet your @ss it is like that in the ME.

So we come down to the same nonsensical argument again. Those with the ability to bring about force either did, or couldn't or wouldn't in the way you want. Could this be any more nonsensical?

Quote:
Originally Posted by giant View Post

We should all defer to trumptman and sdw2001 since everyone knows they have extensive knowledge of pakistan's political situation.

giant's idea of debate is to declare everyone, all their sources and ideas that disagree with his to be ignorant.

There is already plenty of proof if this. Don't argue with him. giant has his blinders on and everything you post is just ignorant nonsense to him. He will you tell you so repeatedly. He will also insult your intelligence, question everything about your background, make repeated claims about you with regard to ignorance, racism, hatefulness, etc.

Just take this post and make it a sticky. Whenever you see giant demonstrating one or all of these above, just ignore him. You can't discuss with someone who is wearing blinders. It isn't debate, it is attempting to argue someone through their own ignorance.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #31 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Come on SDW, it's possible Musharaff wasn't involved, but it's just common sense that he was. It's one thing to be on a jury trying him, it's another to just use common sense to reach a reasonable conclusion.

Come on, BRussell, it's possible that the terrorists we're holding aren't guilty, but it's just common sense that they are. It's one thing to be on a jury trying them, it's another to just use common sense to reach a reasonable conclusion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Oh, you're rich. I expected this from you. As much as I expect your continued ignorance of the potential powder keg this country is compared to Iran.

This will show you how distorted your views are of the region and the information (propaganda) that distorted your brain on this in the first place.

Pakistan's fuse is now lit. Expect civil war.

No one has been ignoring Pakistan. I for for one am not exactly surprised it happened. But Pakistan being dangerous doesn't negate the problems Iran poses. To think it does is to embrace a false dilemma of "dealing with Iran OR Pakistan." That's simply not the way it is.

I'll ignore your personal attacks for now.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #32 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

No one has been ignoring Pakistan. I for for one am not exactly surprised it happened. But Pakistan being dangerous doesn't negate the problems Iran poses. To think it does is to embrace a false dilemma of "dealing with Iran OR Pakistan." That's simply not the way it is.

I'll ignore your personal attacks for now.

You perceived the term idiot was directed to you. Therefore your reply (attacking me directly) was in perfect form. Pakistan has a dictator, Pakistan is a haven for Al Qaeda and other terrorist nut-jobs, Pakistan has nuclear weapons. Pakistan could be heading for civil war.

Who should we have directed our instincts for a potential danger or crisis? Iran?
post #33 of 190
Oh, no, trumptman. I simply want to acknowledge that you and sdw have extensive knowledge of pakistan's political situation. Thank you for your informed insight!
post #34 of 190
Bhutto voiced disquiet that international help in finding those responsible for the assassination attempt two months ago was refused by Musharraf's government. Of course she also added that the "sham investigation" into the October event and Musharraf's refusal to allow outside help did not necessarily imply that Musharraf 'had a part' to play in that attack. Out of a sense of self-preservation, to add that disclaimer would be a given.

A "sham investigation" (in Bhutto's words) combined with a refusal to cooperate with foreign intelligence in finding out the truth of the October assassination attempt, suggests that Musharraf (or parties allied to him) had a part to play in both that, and possibly today's killing. Since Musharraf is a classic rogue leader who harbors terrorists etc etc, it would come as very little surprise to find out that he was an accessory, at least.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #35 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Come on SDW, it's possible Musharaff wasn't involved, but it's just common sense that he was. It's one thing to be on a jury trying him, it's another to just use common sense to reach a reasonable conclusion.

Musharaff is certainly a top suspect, if not the top suspect. What I find amusing, in a sad way, is the utter predictability that in mere hours after Bhutto's death, with there being no possible way for anyone to be certain about anything, that plenty of certainty in some people's minds would nevertheless arise.

Some people seem to have a deep-seated need to show that THEY are not about to pull the wool over their eyes, nosiree, and the only protection against being naively duped is to leap to certainty about a particular, easily demonized suspect, and henceforth view everything through the filter of how one must imagine that the prime suspect would go about shifting blame and covering their tracks.

The kind of thinking where lack of evidence is itself evidence that someone (the pre-selected suspect) hid or destroyed that evidence.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #36 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

The kind of thinking were lack of evidence is itself evidence that someone (the pre-selected suspect) hid or destroyed that evidence.

'where' - it's 'where' not 'were'.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #37 of 190
October 20, 2007

Benazir Bhutto blames enemies within the Government for suicide bombing

Quote:
Benazir Bhutto said last night that she had sent President Musharraf the names of three people whom she suspected of planning the attempt to kill her, as she vowed to keep campaigning for elections due in January.

Ms Bhutto, who escaped unhurt from the twin blasts that killed 140 people, blamed officials inside President Musharrafs Government as well as militants for trying to kill her and derail her struggle to bring back democracy after eight years of military rule.

The cowardly people who planned the attacks on me are not Muslims, she said in a sombre, hour-long speech at her family residence in Karachi. No Muslim can attack a woman, no Muslim can attack innocent people.

Que mojo2 in 3...2...1...
post #38 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

'where' - it's 'where' not 'were'.

Fixed. Now, something more important to add?
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #39 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

Fixed. Now, something more important to add?

Nope - you know me!

Feel better now - thanks
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #40 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Nope - you know me!

Feel better now - thanks

There is a difference between whether you have something important to add, and whether you think you have something important to add. I was trying to allow for the latter.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
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