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post #41 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

There is a difference between whether you have something important to add, and whether you think you have something important to add. I was trying to allow for the latter.

Well, I certainly don't think I have anything to add that you would recognize as important - I think we can agree on that

But enough about us, world events are occurring out there.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #42 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Come on, BRussell, it's possible that the terrorists we're holding aren't guilty, but it's just common sense that they are. It's one thing to be on a jury trying them, it's another to just use common sense to reach a reasonable conclusion.

I agree completely. I certainly believe that it's likely that terrorists we are holding are guilty. But here's the difference: We have imprisoned those alleged terrorists. That is a legal action. We're just BS-ing here about Musharaf on an internet forum, not imprisoning and torturing him. Maybe you see that there's a different standard of evidence in the two situations.
post #43 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

giant's idea of debate is to declare everyone, all their sources and ideas that disagree with his to be ignorant.

There is already plenty of proof if this. Don't argue with him. giant has his blinders on and everything you post is just ignorant nonsense to him. He will you tell you so repeatedly. He will also insult your intelligence, question everything about your background, make repeated claims about you with regard to ignorance, racism, hatefulness, etc.

Just take this post and make it a sticky. Whenever you see giant demonstrating one or all of these above, just ignore him. You can't discuss with someone who is wearing blinders. It isn't debate, it is attempting to argue someone through their own ignorance.


I do not think giant is alone with this problem you say he has..

If I read the above correctly I seem to remember this trumptman / Nick guy saying something that goes like this to other posters here at AI:

"Weren't seg and art the two nutjobs making the case that Iraq was a dreamland before the U.S. came in and wrecked the authoritarian utopia Saddam had established there?

You two should be thrilled. Now Musharaf can open the hidden torture camps, begin ethnic cleansing and establish a reign of "peace" according to the nonsense you two spouted in that other thread.


What the hell is that all about?

Nutjobs seems to suggest to me that you know all and dismiss all they have to say...

You sure can dish it out Nick.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #44 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

I agree completely. I certainly believe that it's likely that terrorists we are holding are guilty. But here's the difference: We have imprisoned those alleged terrorists. That is a legal action. We're just BS-ing here about Musharaf on an internet forum, not imprisoning and torturing him. Maybe you see that there's a different standard of evidence in the two situations.

Oh psh. BRussell, you know that Artman has personally taken Musharaf into custody in his basement and is subjecting him to the CIA's most successful torture device: Glitter.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #45 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

How can you have elections when all the opponents are dead or being shot at?

Things change with time.

FOX NEWS just reported that the Pakistani elections will not take place Jan 8th.

I was wrong on the timing. Elections WILL be held eventually, though.
post #46 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Oh psh. BRussell, you know that Artman has personally taken Musharaf into custody in his basement and is subjecting him to the CIA's most successful torture device: Glitter.



Gary Glitter unavailable for comment.
post #47 of 190
Quote:
U.S. Secretly Aids Pakistan in Guarding Nuclear Arms

By DAVID E. SANGER and WILLIAM J. BROAD
Published: November 18, 2007

WASHINGTON, Nov. 17 Over the past six years, the Bush administration has spent almost $100 million on a highly classified program to help Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Pakistans president, secure his countrys nuclear weapons, according to current and former senior administration officials.

Quote:
Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Thursday that he was confident about Pakistani security.

But with the future of that countrys leadership in doubt, debate is intensifying about whether Washington has done enough to help protect the warheads and laboratories, and whether Pakistans reluctance to reveal critical details about its arsenal has undercut the effectiveness of the continuing security effort.

The aid, buried in secret portions of the federal budget, paid for the training of Pakistani personnel in the United States and the construction of a nuclear security training center in Pakistan, a facility that American officials say is nowhere near completion, even though it was supposed to be in operation this year.

A raft of equipment from helicopters to night-vision goggles to nuclear detection equipment was given to Pakistan to help secure its nuclear material, its warheads, and the laboratories that were the site of the worst known case of nuclear proliferation in the atomic age.

While American officials say that they believe the arsenal is safe at the moment, and that they take at face value Pakistani assurances that security is vastly improved, in many cases the Pakistani government has been reluctant to show American officials how or where the gear is actually used.

That is because the Pakistanis do not want to reveal the locations of their weapons or the amount or type of new bomb-grade fuel the country is now producing.

The American program was created after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, when the Bush administration debated whether to share with Pakistan one of the crown jewels of American nuclear protection technology, known as permissive action links, or PALS, a system used to keep a weapon from detonating without proper codes and authorizations.

In the end, despite past federal aid to France and Russia on delicate points of nuclear security, the administration decided that it could not share the system with the Pakistanis because of legal restrictions.

In addition, the Pakistanis were suspicious that any American-made technology in their warheads could include a secret kill switch, enabling the Americans to turn off their weapons.

While many nuclear experts in the federal government favored offering the PALS system because they considered Pakistans arsenal among the worlds most vulnerable to terrorist groups, some administration officials feared that sharing the technology would teach Pakistan too much about American weaponry. The same concern kept the Clinton administration from sharing the technology with China in the early 1990s.

The New York Times has known details of the secret program for more than three years, based on interviews with a range of American officials and nuclear experts, some of whom were concerned that Pakistans arsenal remained vulnerable. The newspaper agreed to delay publication of the article after considering a request from the Bush administration, which argued that premature disclosure could hurt the effort to secure the weapons.

Since then, some elements of the program have been discussed in the Pakistani news media and in a presentation late last year by the leader of Pakistans nuclear safety effort, Lt. Gen. Khalid Kidwai, who acknowledged receiving international help as he sought to assure Washington that all of the holes in Pakistans nuclear security infrastructure had been sealed.

http://paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?193379
post #48 of 190
Quote:
Pakistan: Al-Qaeda claims Bhutto's death

Karachi, 27 Dec. (AKI) - (by Syed Saleem Shahzad) - A spokesperson for the al-Qaeda terrorist network has claimed responsibility for the death on Thursday of former Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto.

We terminated the most precious American asset which vowed to defeat [the] mujahadeen, Al-Qaedas commander and main spokesperson Mustafa Abu Al-Yazid told Adnkronos International (AKI) in a phone call from an unknown location, speaking in faltering English. Al-Yazid is the main al-Qaeda commander in Afghanistan.

It is believed that the decision to kill Bhutto, who is the leader of the opposition Pakistan People's Party (PPP), was made by al-Qaeda No. 2, the Egyptian doctor, Ayman al-Zawahiri in October.

Death squads were allegedly constituted for the mission and ultimately one cell comprising a defunct Lashkar-i-Jhangvis Punjabi volunteer succeeded in killing Bhutto.

Bhutto had just addressed a pre-election rally on Thursday in the garrison town of Rawalpindi when the bomb went off.

She had come to Rawalpindi after finishing a rapid election campaign, ahead of the January polls, in Pakistan's volatile North West Frontier Province (NWFP) where she had talked about a war against terrorism and al-Qaeda.

Reports say at least 15 other people were killed in the attack and several others injured.

As news of Bhutto's death spread throughout the country, there are reports that people have taken to the streets to protest the death of the leader of the PPP, which has the largest support of any party in Pakistan.

In the southern port city of Karachi, Bhutto's hometown, residents reportedly threw stones at cars and burnt tyres.

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English...1.0.1710322437
post #49 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

And expect no elections.

And maybe even- conveniently - a new front in the WOT.

'Surge' Of US Special Forces Expected In Pakistan In Early 2008

Not on Jan. 8th, but eventually there will be elections.
post #50 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo2 View Post

Things change with time.

FOX NEWS just reported that the Pakistani elections will not take place Jan 8th.

I was wrong on the timing. Elections WILL be held eventually, though.

Against who? Bhutto is dead and Sharif has been barred from running in the elections by Musharaf.
post #51 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo2 View Post

Not on Jan. 8th, but eventually there will be elections.

Eventually the sun will expand in size, engulfing the inner planets and possibly the Earth itself, the surface of which will become molten and sterilized of all life at the very least.

The race is on.
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Peter came out and gave us medals
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #52 of 190
Keep in mind that this woman was seeking to charm and manipulate us, to the Pakistanis' amusement.

Quote:
She is shrewd, an eloquent speaker and knows the art of winning the hearts of the naïve and gullible masses even with her hollow promises. Not only that, she can have her way in the international political arena as well. Though her influencing the Yankees is understandable yet, her winning over the British - respected the world over for their mature and far reaching policies - is rather amusing.

http://paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?193379

With that goal in mind this is the story that PARADE MAGAZINE had already planned to run in early January 2008.

Quote:

'A Wrong Must Be Righted'
An interview with Benazir Bhutto

By Gail Sheehy
Published: December 27, 2007

Editor's note: We are all saddened by the murder this morning of Pakistans Benazir Bhutto. The assassination adds more danger and confusion to the already chaotic situation in the region.

In late November, PARADE sent Contributing Editor Gail Sheehy to Pakistan. Sheehy traveled with former prime minister Benazir Bhutto as she campaigned through her home provinces. Sheehy had two long interviews with herthe first in Bhuttos home in Islamabad, a second at her residence outside Karachi. Bhutto told Sheehy that she had long been a target of terrorists. She knew she was also now a target of the Musharraf government. Todays suicide bombing mirrors the earlier attempt on her life that Bhutto described to Sheehy.

The interview with Bhutto will be the cover story of PARADE on January 6, 2008.

http://www.parade.com/benazir_bhutto_interview.html
post #53 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Against who? Bhutto is dead and Sharif has been barred from running in the elections by Musharaf.

The PKK party was lead by Bhutto. They will probably identify someone to run, and as a sympathy candidate usually does, that future nominee will receive great support.
post #54 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

Eventually the sun will expand in size, engulfing the inner planets and possibly the Earth itself, the surface of which will become molten and sterilized of all life at the very least.

The race is on.

And I GUARANTEE that between now and the time when 'life is sterilized from Earth' that elections will be held.
post #55 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo2 View Post

The PKK party was lead by Bhutto. They will probably identify someone to run, and as a sympathy candidate usually does, that future nominee will receive great support.

You mean the PPP (Pakistan Peoples Party) not the PKK. Your getting all your Jihad/Terrorist groups mixed up there...

Thanks for the Parade interview link. I read it later.
post #56 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo2 View Post

The PKK party was lead by Bhutto. They will probably identify someone to run, and as a sympathy candidate usually does, that future nominee will receive great support.

It's 'led' not 'lead'.

And as to the PKK - now we KNOW you are barking.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #57 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

I agree completely. I certainly believe that it's likely that terrorists we are holding are guilty. But here's the difference: We have imprisoned those alleged terrorists. That is a legal action. We're just BS-ing here about Musharaf on an internet forum, not imprisoning and torturing him. Maybe you see that there's a different standard of evidence in the two situations.


As in those being held in Guantanamo Bay? The majority of those held there have been released without charge, some having been imprisoned there for up to 5 years, including children as young as 13. The huge majority of the 450 or so current prisoners there, many who have been there for 6 years, have not been charged. In the handful of cases in which charges have been filed, evidence has been obtained via methods of torture, which is, according to intelligence professionals, a way of collecting useless or unreliable or garbage material. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is one such example of this: his "confession" extracted via torture is more than likely a bunch of BS, since he is also a known unreliable witness who lied under interrogation by CIA personnel.

Common sense tells us that the "terrorists" at Gitmo are innocent of terrorism. It is rogue governments who lock people up, keep them locked up for years, deny them a trial (fair or foul) and can't charge them with anything unless they fabricate evidence, or extract "confessions" by torture.

Wake up.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #58 of 190
Yeah, CNN the bastion of real news but...

Quote:
Today on "The Situation Room," Wolf Blitzer revealed an exclusive e-mail he received from Benazir Bhutto's US spokesman Mark Siegel in October. "This is a story she wanted me to tell the world on her behalf if she were killed," Blitzer said, before reading the e-mail.

In the e-mail, Bhutto wrote that, if anything were to happen to her, "I wld [sic] hold Musharaf [sic] responsible. I have been made to feel insecure by his minions, and there is no way what is happening in terms of stopping me from taking private cars or using tinted windows or giving jammers or four police mobiles to cover all sides cld [sic] happen without him."

Video clip also at the link.
post #59 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

As in those being held in Guantanamo Bay? The majority of those held there have been released without charge, some having been imprisoned there for up to 5 years, including children as young as 13. The huge majority of the 450 or so current prisoners there, many who have been there for 6 years, have not been charged. In the handful of cases in which charges have been filed, evidence has been obtained via methods of torture, which is, according to intelligence professionals, a way of collecting useless or unreliable or garbage material. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is one such example of this: his "confession" extracted via torture is more than likely a bunch of BS, since he is also a known unreliable witness who lied under interrogation by CIA personnel.

Common sense tells us that the "terrorists" at Gitmo are innocent of terrorism. It is rogue governments who lock people up, keep them locked up for years, deny them a trial (fair or foul) and can't charge them with anything unless they fabricate evidence, or extract "confessions" by torture.

Wake up.

?

I am not sure this is the appropriate way to argue your case sammi...

Presumed innocence is surely the best.

And BRussell's point was that we need to have trials to PROVE their guilt of being terrorist, until then ass/u/me what you like...
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #60 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

You perceived the term idiot was directed to you. Therefore your reply (attacking me directly) was in perfect form. Pakistan has a dictator, Pakistan is a haven for Al Qaeda and other terrorist nut-jobs, Pakistan has nuclear weapons. Pakistan could be heading for civil war.

Who should we have directed our instincts for a potential danger or crisis? Iran?

Right, as if it wasn't directed at me. Also, you posted this:

Quote:
This will show you how distorted your views are of the region and the information (propaganda) that distorted your brain on this in the first place.

But hey, that's you. Use any opportunity to launch an attack. Moving on though....

Quote:
Pakistan has a dictator, Pakistan is a haven for Al Qaeda and other terrorist nut-jobs, Pakistan has nuclear weapons. Pakistan could be heading for civil war.

Who should we have directed our instincts for a potential danger or crisis? Iran?

Pakistan doesn't really have a "dictator" exactly, even if if he's not a nice guy. He's also considerably more friendly to the United States. But regardless, it's not a question of focusing on one versus the other. That reasoning is absurd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

I agree completely. I certainly believe that it's likely that terrorists we are holding are guilty. But here's the difference: We have imprisoned those alleged terrorists. That is a legal action. We're just BS-ing here about Musharaf on an internet forum, not imprisoning and torturing him. Maybe you see that there's a different standard of evidence in the two situations.

I'm just saying that there isn't any evidence that Musharraf was involved. Yet, some here are quick to indict him, just as they are for anyone with whom they disagree. At the same time, terror suspects, President Tom, and all sorts of nefarious figures are given every benefit of the doubt. Explain that to me.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #61 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Pakistan doesn't really have a "dictator" exactly, even if if he's not a nice guy. He's also considerably more friendly to the United States. But regardless, it's not a question of focusing on one versus the other. That reasoning is absurd.

Talk about absurd reasoning... so a dictator is a-ok if he is friendly to the US? I guess you aren't so principled after all...


Is this the modern face of conservatism? pseudo-objectivist 'me, me, me' over the more principled approach of the much more honorable palecon 'wisemen'.
"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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"In a republic, voters may vote for the leaders they want, but they get the leaders they deserve."
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post #62 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Right, as if it wasn't directed at me. Also, you posted this:

Yet that was posted after your accusation to this:

Quote:
She's dead. Expected. Honestly, who didn't think this would happen?

Oh, I know...the ones who think Iran is the terrorist, nuclear apocalyptic threat.

Wake up idiots.

Your name there? You sense this was directed to you? I guess so.

Quote:
But hey, that's you. Use any opportunity to launch an attack. Moving on though....

Yes, I will accuse you for being ignorant and divisive here on big, bad PoliticalOutsider after the fact...moving on...

Quote:
Pakistan doesn't really have a "dictator" exactly, even if if he's not a nice guy. He's also considerably more friendly to the United States. But regardless, it's not a question of focusing on one versus the other. That reasoning is absurd.

Your response is exactly what I expected. Musharraf is a meat-puppet for Bush and you know it. Another "friendly" one that we shovel billions of dollars to with no results, except for misuse of that aid.

Quote:
I'm just saying that there isn't any evidence that Musharraf was involved. Yet, some here are quick to indict him, just as they are for anyone with whom they disagree. At the same time, terror suspects, President Tom, and all sorts of nefarious figures are given every benefit of the doubt. Explain that to me.

Dude, it's been less than 48 hours. Assumptions and theories abound. This forum is here to post them and make some conclusions on it. I really don't expect you to contribute on that logically either.
post #63 of 190
The Bhutto + Musharraf solution was imposed on Pakisthan by the US. Banning Nawaz Sharrif from contesting the election was part of the ploy. That has gone for a toss with her assassination. Musharraf isn't stupid to hurt her. Both of them brokered a deal to share power if you remember.

Let us see what the future holds.
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
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post #64 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

You mean the PPP (Pakistan Peoples Party) not the PKK. Your getting all your Jihad/Terrorist groups mixed up there...

Thanks for the Parade interview link. I read it later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It's 'led' not 'lead'.

And as to the PKK - now we KNOW you are barking.....


Of course you are right. Thanks.
post #65 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Talk about absurd reasoning... so a dictator is a-ok if he is friendly to the US? I guess you aren't so principled after all...


Is this the modern face of conservatism? pseudo-objectivist 'me, me, me' over the more principled approach of the much more honorable palecon 'wisemen'.

Back to Bhutto?
By Anatol Lieven, New America Foundation
PROSPECT | June 28, 2007

Quote:
A return of civilian rule is also unlikely to make Pakistan a more reliable US client state in the "war on terror." A dangerous illusion is growing in Washington, fuelled by PPP representatives, that a future PPP-led government, because it will be democratically elected, will have the legitimacy to launch a military crackdown on the Taliban in Pakistan’s tribal areas along the Afghan frontier.

This is deeply counterintuitive, since every poll shows that a big majority of Pakistanis detest US strategy in general and the US role in Afghanistan in particular, and disapprove even of existing levels of Pakistani help. This is especially true of the Pashtuns -- 15 per cent of the population -- from whom most Taliban support in Pakistan is drawn. When I visited Peshawar in May, I asked a group of students at Peshawar University -- including PPP supporters -- if they would accept a military crackdown in the tribal areas if a democratic government ordered it. Every one said no.

When the army launched a major campaign against the Taliban in Waziristan in 2005, the result was anger and even desertion among Pashtun troops. Given the military’s deep fears of mutiny, it seems unlikely that a civilian government, even one backed by Washington, could force the military to obey.

So whatever happens, Pakistan will be stuck with a highly imperfect system in which the military continues to wield a great deal of power; and the west will be stuck with a very imperfect ally in the "war on terror," or at least the war in Afghanistan. Then again, an imperfect ally is a great deal better than the military mutiny and state collapse that could result if Washington does manage to subjugate a Pakistani government to its will.

http://www.newamerica.net/publicatio...ck_bhutto_5588
post #66 of 190
This interview with Benazir Bhutto by UK TV host Sir David Frost (on "Frost All Over The World") was filmed shortly after the attempted assassination attempt in October, a few weeks ago.

It is fascinating viewing throughout, not least, where at 06:10 into the clip, she baldly states (while referring to a terrorist who allegedly decapitated 3 American and 3 British tourists) that it was former MI6 operative Omar Saeed Sheikh who murdered Osama bin Laden (Bhutto's own words). No date is mentioned (although this likely happened some years back). Amazingly, this little gem slipped through the censors.

One would imagine that Ms. Bhutto was privy to the kind of information re. Pakistan's internal affairs that is not even known within our own intelligence agencies, let alone aired and shared on the US media.

I wonder how long this will stay up on youtube before the censors ax it? Someone at JumpTV must have gotten fired over this. Certain folks (no need to mention names) must also have been absolutely raging furious with Ms. Bhutto for debunking the legend of the bearded one, and are probably (privately) rubbing their hands together at not only her demise, but also the high probability of further unrest in the region.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #67 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

This interview with Benazir Bhutto by UK TV host Sir David Frost (on "Frost All Over The World") was filmed shortly after the attempted assassination attempt in October, a few weeks ago.

It is fascinating viewing throughout, not least, where at 06:10 into the clip, she baldly states (while referring to a terrorist who allegedly decapitated 3 American and 3 British tourists) that it was former MI6 operative Omar Saeed Sheikh who murdered Osama bin Laden (Bhutto's own words). No date is mentioned (although this likely happened some years back). Amazingly, this little gem slipped through the censors.

One would imagine that Ms. Bhutto was privy to the kind of information re. Pakistan's internal affairs that is not even known within our own intelligence agencies, let alone aired and shared on the US media.

I wonder how long this will stay up on youtube before the censors ax it? Someone at JumpTV must have gotten fired over this. Certain folks (no need to mention names) must also have been absolutely raging furious with Ms. Bhutto for debunking the legend of the bearded one, and are probably (privately) rubbing their hands together at not only her demise, but also the high probability of further unrest in the region.

Given the casual way she mentioned that he killed Osama Bin Laden and and the fact that she referred to it as murder imply that she simply miss spoke and probably meant to say Daniel Pearl.

Unless you believe she was a fairly stupid person, you would hardly expect her to drop a bomb like the name of the person that killed OBL so casually, in a tone that implied it was common knowledge. Also, it is difficult to think she would refer to the killing of OBL as murder.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #68 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Given the casual way she mentioned that he killed Osama Bin Laden and and the fact that she referred to it as murder imply that she simply miss spoke and probably meant to say Daniel Pearl.

Unless you believe she was a fairly stupid person, you would hardly expect her to drop a bomb like the name of the person that killed OBL so casually, in a tone that implied it was common knowledge. Also, it is difficult to think she would refer to the killing of OBL as murder.

There is no way of knowing now, since she is dead. But David Frost didn't stop her (which is odd, as regards either eventuality), but she didn't backtrack either. It is also arguably unlikely that Ms Bhutto, sharp as she was, would have mixed up "Osama bin Laden" with "Daniel Pearl", two people of radically differing 'everything about them'.. although it is conceivably possible I guess.

But, considering that Omar Sheikh's alleged involvement in Pearl's murder came from the mouth of Khaled Sheikh Mohammed, an unreliable witness whose "confessions" were extracted via torture (thus likely to be useless/garbage), and also is known to have lied to CIA interrogators, anything that KSM has said in custody should be regarded with a large degree of skepticism. KSM's alleged confession was done in a secret detention center, and no verifiable chain of custody exists as to the veracity of what he said, when and where he said it, and to whom, and what was being done to him at the time.

If people prefer to believe the words of liars, or false witnesses, or people undergoing torture who will say anything to make the pain go away (provided its what the torturers have been instructed to extract), then thats their prerogative, if it makes their world a little more comfortable.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #69 of 190
Thread Starter 
Re the OBL 'mistake'; I am with Tulkas on this one, clearly she meant Pearl. We have no access to the original unedited tape but I would not be surprised if she backtracked, corrected herself or was pulled up by Frost.

It is always the less sensational things that are REALLY significant in terms of conspiracies and one can almost always discount such 'big-ticket' items as this (or explosions in the WTC for example), indeed they may well be part of a disinfo process themselves.

I would say that that the involvement of MI5 operatives in criminal activity at governmental level is significant enough on its own leaving OBL out of it.

In this regard I have been listening to the Press Conference in Pakistan. It is certainly enlightening.

Apparently she did not die from bullet-wounds and was not hit by any bullets. Nor was anyone else in the car - all of whom were unhurt.

The cause of death - and this is according to the official Press Conference spokesman - was that she hit her head on the sun-roof lever of the car when trying to duck.

I'm not saying this is a conspiracy - it's just ironic. She could have survived the shooting and the bombing but died by this cause.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #70 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

In this regard I have been listening to the Press Conference in Pakistan. It is certainly enlightening.

Apparently she did not die from bullet-wounds and was not hit by any bullets. Nor was anyone else in the car - all of whom were unhurt.

The cause of death - and this is according to the official Press Conference spokesman - was that she hit her head on the sun-roof lever of the car when trying to duck.

I'm not saying this is a conspiracy - it's just ironic. She could have survived the shooting and the bombing but died by this cause.

segovius................you're joking, right? Gotta link?

As far as Osama Bin Laden...Wanted: Dead or Alive.

BBC: Bhutto killing blamed on al-Qaeda

Damn terrorists and their sun-roof weapons of mass destructions...yep, CNN is developing this story now...

Quote:
Benazir Bhutto died from a fractured skull after hitting her head on a lever -- not from a bullet or shrapnel, Pakistan's Interior Ministry says.

post #71 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

segovius................you're joking, right? Gotta link?

As far as Osama Bin Laden...Wanted: Dead or Alive.

BBC: Bhutto killing blamed on al-Qaeda

Damn terrorists and their sun-roof weapons of mass destructions...

Something here at the BBC

Quote:
Addressing reporters, ministry spokesman Javed Iqbal Cheema said the primary cause of Ms Bhutto's death appeared to have been a blow to her head as she fell and not bullets or shrapnel.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #72 of 190
Ah, well this changes everything. \
post #73 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Ah, well this changes everything. \

Yes, alarm bells are starting to ring. No-one else in the car even injured....

Quote:
Talking about the cause of Ms Bhutto's death, the spokesman said she had died from a head wound.

It was, he said, sustained when she smashed against the sunroof's lever as she tried to shelter inside the car from the gunman, who set off a bomb after opening fire with a gun.

"The lever struck near her right ear and fractured her skull," he said.

"There was no bullet or metal shrapnel found in the injury."

Updated on the same link as above....

Edit: just occurred to me - surely this means she was not assassinated then?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #74 of 190
Death by Sunroof? Right at the same time 3 shots rang out? Believing that a member of Musharraf's government is going to say something honest?


Blaming "al Qaeda" (a western intelligence term lumping together all Muslim militant groups) is a lazy way out, which says nothing.

The Times of the UK has this story. Pakistan's ISI is a possible suspect, which is a far more likely area of inquiry; their undoubted involvement in the 9/11 attacks should make them a prime suspect.

Bhutto herself suspected that if she died, Musharraf and his stooges would probably have something to do with it.

Bhutto's doctor is now saying that "nothing entered her head". There is probably enormous pressure from the Pakistani government, as well as pressure from outside sources with whom Musharraf is allied to, to pull a story that takes the blame away from Musharraf.

The next thing to wonder: who are going to be the main beneficiaries as a result of this (probable) assassination?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #75 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Death by Sunroof? Right at the same time 3 shots rang out? Believing that a member of Musharraf's government is going to say something honest?


Blaming "al Qaeda" (a western intelligence term lumping together all Muslim militant groups) is a lazy way out, which says nothing.

The Times of the UK has this story. Pakistan's ISI is a possible suspect, which is a far more likely area of inquiry; their undoubted involvement in the 9/11 attacks should make them a prime suspect.

Bhutto herself suspected that if she died, Musharraf and his stooges would probably have something to do with it.

The next thing to wonder: who are going to be the main beneficiaries as a result of this (probable) assassination?

Reports are coming in that, contrary to the government report, she was killed by a sniper.

Re the second question I think we can look no further than the fact that Ms Bhutto's main plank for election was to go after Taleban elements in the hinterlands of Pakistan - possibly in areas where even OBL may be based - and eradicate them. Also to blow the lid on the A Q Khan affair and possibly bring some sort of justice.

Musharaf opposed these plans. The US supported his position.

Perhaps there is someone - an asset or maybe just someone who has brokered an immunity deal and is hiding in Pakistan from where they are conducting their operations - who is being protected by Musharaf and the US and who cannot be messed around with.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #76 of 190
Back...and to the left...back...and to the left...
post #77 of 190
Death by Sunroof = Death to any political adversary who does not support the "agenda". You will be killed by black-ops, there will be the obligatory Al-qaeda reference to keep the sheep in line. But more importantly, we will invent a completely ridiculous reason for death, because a) the sheeple will believe anything anyhow, and b) anyone else who dares to stand 'out of line' can work out for themselves that they will be eliminated.
post #78 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post

Death by Sunroof = Death to any political adversary who does not support the "agenda". You will be killed by black-ops, there will be the obligatory Al-qaeda reference to keep the sheep in line. But more importantly, we will invent a completely ridiculous reason for death, because a) the sheeple will believe anything anyhow, and b) anyone else who dares to stand 'out of line' can work out for themselves that they will be eliminated.

Don't forget c)

Even before any suspicions are aroused - within minutes of an 'event' in fact - a monstrous unpaid regiment of enabling message-board generals formed into an internet virtual black-shirted goon-squad will leap ponderously to their keyboards, their fingers trembling with querulous loquacity as they jump once more into the breach to defend the honour of any murdering tyrant who kills the people they hate, tortures the people they hate and stands for principles they themselves support but are too cowardly to stand up and say "yes, I too am a fascist and believe in the suppression and elimination of those I despise....."

We all know who they are.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #79 of 190
Police abandoned security posts before Bhutto assassination

Quote:
Perhaps more shockingly, an attendee at the rally where Bhutto was killed says police charged with protecting her "abandoned their posts," leaving just a handful of Bhutto's own bodyguards protecting her.

"Police officers had frisked the 3,000 to 4,000 people attending Thursday's rally when they entered the park, but as the speakers from Bhutto's Pakistan People's Party droned on, the police abandoned many of their posts," wrote Saeed Shah in an essay published by McClatchy News Service. "As she drove out through the gate, her main protection appeared to be her own bodyguards, who wore their usual white T-shirts inscribed: 'Willing to die for Benazir.'"

They performed no autopsy. How the fuck do you claim anything without one in a criminal investigation?

Is there anyplace on Earth where lies and deceit do not exist?
post #80 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post

Death by Sunroof = Death to any political adversary who does not support the "agenda". You will be killed by black-ops, there will be the obligatory Al-qaeda reference to keep the sheep in line. But more importantly, we will invent a completely ridiculous reason for death, because a) the sheeple will believe anything anyhow, and b) anyone else who dares to stand 'out of line' can work out for themselves that they will be eliminated.

I can't believe that MarcUK choked to death on toothpaste from his own toothbrush.

How is that even possible?

Just having some fun running you through your own scenario Marc. We all know the toothpaste tube had a puncture hole from where the black-ops gents put in the poison that simulated the choking.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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