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Apple set to ship Macs with Blu-ray support - report - Page 3

post #81 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Apple is most likely going to procure a Universal drive. They really don't have a pony in this war as much as many people like to portray.

To date DVD Studio Pro supports HD DVD out of the box and Blu-ray prep with a Telestream plugin.

There's no value in Apple choosing sides. They sell content production software. They don't give a shat about the format war.

Blu-ray/HD DVD playback isn't coming until HDCP/AACS/BD+/ is fully integrated in OS X.

Newsflash ....Universals will rule the day. Last CES it was about Universal chipsets from NEC and Broadcom. This CES should be about more integration and Universal player options.

Actually, there is a value in Apple choosing sides. Microsoft is heavily invested in HD DVD. The VC-1 codec that is used on a large percentage of HD DVD's is a renamed version of Microsoft's WMV format and the interactive features of HD DVD are powered by Microsoft's HDi. Stopping MS from getting another stranglehold on technology seems like a pretty good reason to me.

And if, as you suggest, universal, dual-formats players win, then both formats lose. Current dual-format players cost more than buying 2 different players for each format. There's also the retail aspect to think about with 2 formats sucking up valuable shelf space. This CES should be about ditching the losing format if HD content is to survive.
post #82 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenjs View Post

Apple are currently a Blu-Ray supporter in name only though. Disney have declined to answer questions about being paid to support Blu-Ray. I doubt very much that Steve Jobs cares which format wins - Apple are all about selling content on iTunes - and if Apple did start selling computers with Blu-Ray drives, would it really make much difference to the format war?

Actually, Disney has denied receiving any money to support Blu-Ray exclusively.

And as for it making a difference to the format war if Apple put a Blu-Ray drive in Macs (and assuming it was capable of playing Blu-Ray movies), I would say that's a big "Yes." Just look at these forums and how strongly Mac supporters rally behind most every Apple product. As one of the most watched and scrutinized tech companies, don't you think it would be a big boon to Blu-Ray to get a real nod of approval from Apple with internal Blu-Ray playback?
post #83 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Apple is most likely going to procure a Universal drive. They really don't have a pony in this war as much as many people like to portray.

To date DVD Studio Pro supports HD DVD out of the box and Blu-ray prep with a Telestream plugin.

There's no value in Apple choosing sides. They sell content production software. They don't give a shat about the format war.

Blu-ray/HD DVD playback isn't coming until HDCP/AACS/BD+/ is fully integrated in OS X.

Newsflash ....Universals will rule the day. Last CES it was about Universal chipsets from NEC and Broadcom. This CES should be about more integration and Universal player options.

I've ben looking at the few combo players that have been, and are, out there. The problem with all of them is that they are danged expensive. $1,000!

This would mean that we shouldn't expect HD playback for almost another year. Bonkers!

Apple must take sides now. If they put players in their less expensive machines, they will influence the outcome. Those who don't agree with that haven't paid attention to the figures.

Apple users buy digital downloads, and media, at a far higher clip than do their PC buying friends.

Sony has sold millions of PS3's, while MS has sold only 120 thousand HD-DVD add-ons for the 360. While HD-DVD has sold about 35% more stand alone players than has Blu-Ray, BD movies are selling at a 2 to 1 clip. That's important, because it's the amount of media sold that will determine who wins this.

If Apple could add a few million more BD players to the mix this year, it could move BD over the top.

Apple must get involved.
post #84 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Sony has sold millions of PS3's, while MS has sold only 120 thousand HD-DVD add-ons for the 360. While HD-DVD has sold about 35% more stand alone players than has Blu-Ray, BD movies are selling at a 2 to 1 clip. That's important, because it's the amount of media sold that will determine who wins this.

With so many more Blu-ray plays sold than HD-DVD, shouldn't Blu-ray be outselling HD-DVD by much more than HD-DVD? Especially since the Playstation 3, which is AppleTV and more, is selling for such a great price.
post #85 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I wouldn't think porn viewers would care that much. Porn is cheap, HD-DVD is cheap, looks like a perfect match. But whatever floats your boat. Personally I was never very attracted to the sleaze look to begin with. Maybe a little pixelization would help cover up the flaws in the acting.

Apple is a member of the Blu Ray consortium, Disney is 100% Blu Ray. Try and think in terms of reality while it sets in.
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post #86 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I've ben looking at the few combo players that have been, and are, out there. The problem with all of them is that they are danged expensive. $1,000!

This would mean that we shouldn't expect HD playback for almost another year. Bonkers!

Samsung and LG both brought set top combo players to market in the past couple of months; they can already be had for $749. By this time next year I imagine set top combo players will sell for under $399. However, the prices you're talking about are for set top players, and not the drives computer manufactures put in their machines (which are much cheaper). HP is putting drives in their sub-$1,000 computers today that play both high-def formats. The cost to add playback support for both formats is negligible, and the least painful thing you can do for consumers is just make sure everything plays on their computer.
post #87 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by pt123 View Post

With so many more Blu-ray plays sold than HD-DVD, shouldn't Blu-ray be outselling HD-DVD by much more than HD-DVD? Especially since the Playstation 3, which is AppleTV and more, is selling for such a great price.

The question is just how many who have a PS3 are buying movies? It's assumed that there is a percentage, but no one knows what it is. also, it's been reported that BD owners buy more movies than do HD-DVD owners. I have no figures for that though. But the numbers of movies sold are published numbers.

If Apple sold 3 million computers this year with BD playback, that could change those figures to 3 to 1, or even 4 to 1, considering that not all that many movies have been sold so far. It could push HD-DVD out to a bit player, by having studios that produce both, drop HD-DVD.

And that would be good, because then I could just type BD, rather than having to type HD-DVD all the time.
post #88 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by pt123 View Post

With so many more Blu-ray plays sold than HD-DVD, shouldn't Blu-ray be outselling HD-DVD by much more than HD-DVD? Especially since the Playstation 3, which is AppleTV and more, is selling for such a great price.

Probably because there are a vast amount of PS3's are gaming consoles, and not movie players. Duh.. Even though the games are on Blu Ray disks they don't count as blu ray movies. Add them to the equation however and your imaginary ratio would probably be close to accurate.
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post #89 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

Samsung and LG both brought set top combo players to market in the past couple of months; they can already be had for $749. By this time next year I imagine set top combo players will sell for under $399. However, the prices you're talking about are for set top players, and not the drives computer manufactures put in their machines (which are much cheaper). HP is putting drives in their sub-$1,000 computers today that play both high-def formats. The cost to add playback support for both formats is negligible, and the least painful thing you can do for consumers is just make sure everything plays on their computer.

I haven't seen them anywhere at those prices, but they are still way too expensive at that price.

The $99 Hd-DVD price was a promotion for a short while, but BD is priced at under $300, and HD-DVD under $200. A viable combo drive would need to be no more than $400, at the most. Few people buy high end models, except at the very beginning.
post #90 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

Probably because there are a vast amount of PS3's are gaming consoles, and not movie players. Duh.. Even though the games are on Blu Ray disks they don't count as blu ray movies. Add them to the equation however and your imaginary ratio would probably be close to accurate.

Well yes, we know that. But, the PS2 was credited with getting many people to buy DVD;s when the technology was still young, and players expensive. That doesn't mean that everyone who bought a PS2 bought movies.
post #91 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Yeah, Blu-Ray is more advanced than HD-DVD. The main advantage is significantly greater storage capacity. The second is freedom from MS's influence on the product.

Sony influence is better than MS? Please, explain how?

Significantly greater storage capacity? I could care less. That's what Hard Drives are for.

I'm not a big fan of MS any more than any of us here, but seriously how is Sony better? Sorry, I don't buy it at all.

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post #92 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

As a movie buff, I do care. Sorry if it offends you that I might want to watch movies at home with the best picture and sound quality available. I don't want to have sit around waiting for that seemingly mythical day when digital downloads finally arrive in all their much talked about (but never actually delivered) promise. I don't want my movie watching controlled by Apple's iTunes Store and whatever hardware they deem to provide for viewing or be saddled with whatever Microsoft's current scheme might be.

I definitely understand this, and as a fellow movie buff I completely understand this, but it's been proven time and time again that the quality between HD DVD and Blu-ray is practically non-existent, so why is everyone in such a hurry in getting either format immediately and then having a debate about which is better?

Frankly, NEITHER are any worth any salt. Until content is there, until there's a multi-format player, it's not worth getting either one.

w00master
post #93 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

And that would be good, because then I could just type BD, rather than having to type HD-DVD all the time.

Finally, the most overwhelming point in the whole BD/HD-DVD (that IS hard to type) debate. Should be cool to see if Apple does throw their hat into the ring soon.
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post #94 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Well yes, we know that. But, the PS2 was credited with getting many people to buy DVD;s when the technology was still young, and players expensive. That doesn't mean that everyone who bought a PS2 bought movies.

Where did yo get any idea I was saying anything different about the PS3?
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post #95 of 153
lol, isn't there already a thread for this blu-ray vs hd-dvd 'discussion'?
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post #96 of 153
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Originally Posted by w00master View Post

Alert the media... A Blu-ray fanboy has entered the building.

I could care less about either of these formats. The fact that neither side could come to an agreement to create one format and in the end screw over consumers ended my fascination on either formats. I honestly hope both of them die a miserable death.

And honestly, does it *really* matter which format wins? Seriously. Is it seriously going to affect your day to day life? I really doubt it. Get over it, both Blu-ray and HD DVD each have there advantages and disadvantages, but honestly does the consumer REALLY care about any of this? Nope.

w00master

I personally care about higher storage size for backups. Were any of his points wrong? What are these advantages of HD-DVD that you talk about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

lol, isn't there already a thread for this blu-ray vs hd-dvd 'discussion'?

Use for movies, and use as a replacement for CD-Rom are two completely different topics. I'd say that the other thread concentrates on the use of the hd formats for movies, as opposed to the use as a write once storage medium. The storage usages are more important for use in a computer.
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post #97 of 153
Storage size for backups AND media durability are huge for me. Why didn't HD-DVD go for better durability as well?
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post #98 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Use for movies, and use as a replacement for CD-Rom are two completely different topics. I'd say that the other thread concentrates on the use of the hd formats for movies, as opposed to the use as a write once storage medium. The storage usages are more important for use in a computer.

perhaps that is what it has evolved into, i hardly bother to look in the 'versus' thread nowadays, too much like fanboys slinging sales stats at each other... i followed it for a long time, from back when it started, and the discussion in this thread is more of the same.

on topic, i'd prefer a combo player/burner, and it would make sense considering that apple has a foot in each camp.
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post #99 of 153
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Originally Posted by sennen View Post

perhaps that is what it has evolved into, i hardly bother to look in the 'versus' thread nowadays, too much like fanboys slinging sales stats at each other... i followed it for a long time, from back when it started, and the discussion in this thread is more of the same.

on topic, i'd prefer a combo player/burner, and it would make sense considering that apple has a foot in each camp.

I would not be willing to pay any premium for a combo player - and would combo players have the same reliability? I just want big disks.
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post #100 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I would not be willing to pay any premium for a combo player - and would combo players have the same reliability? I just want big disks.

For the fourth time, the cost to allow playback of both formats with one drive in a computer is negligible; HP announced a $949 computer today that plays both formats. You wouldn't have to pay a premium.
post #101 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

There will be a meeting withe Final Cut user groups at the end of MacWorld. Possibly Blu-Ray is on the agenda, particularly if Apple does support Blu-Ray in some machines now.

It'll be interesting to see what that meeting is about.

There were 2 earlier Quicktime rumours that went nowhere... but also have potential
1) Quicktime was being entirely rewritten, from the ground up, in cocoa.... etc
2) Apple doesn't just want to download a movie, but rather all the extras as well... like a DVD does.

I'm wondering whether the Final Cut meeting could be concerned with a new method of creating menus (ie: interactivity) for films.

Naturally, could easily be way, way off.
post #102 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

hmmm, i'll believe it when i see it.



um, not quite. very limited HD-DVD creation, and no Blu-Ray, and i'm not hopeful of much change to that in the near future.

Quite. HD-DVD and Blu-ray are not content. Content is what goes onto those media.
Apple does indeed market a complete line of HD content creation tools.

And stop saying "um."
post #103 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

Actually, there is a value in Apple choosing sides. Microsoft is heavily invested in HD DVD. The VC-1 codec that is used on a large percentage of HD DVD's is a renamed version of Microsoft's WMV format and the interactive features of HD DVD are powered by Microsoft's HDi. Stopping MS from getting another stranglehold on technology seems like a pretty good reason to me.

And if, as you suggest, universal, dual-formats players win, then both formats lose. Current dual-format players cost more than buying 2 different players for each format. There's also the retail aspect to think about with 2 formats sucking up valuable shelf space. This CES should be about ditching the losing format if HD content is to survive.

As long as both formats support AVC Apple's fine. DVD Studio Pro 4.x can deliver HD content on DVD discs in MPEG2 and AVC support now. No VC-1 support without a Telestream plugin as of today.

Apple voted for HDi as an interactive layer (DVD Forum Vote). We must not forget that Apple really isn't the fondest of JAVA either. I'm not talking about STB for Universal players. I'm talking about a bare drive that can be put in a Mac Pro. The LG (if you can find it) is $299 by next year the drives could be as low as $199. That makes moving to a Universal drive a no brainer IMO.

Apple isn't a content provider like a studio is so there's no stress for them to ditch anything. If they can support both formats affordably and make money doing so they will. The money for Apple is in authoring...they are well insulated against the failing of either format.
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post #104 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I've ben looking at the few combo players that have been, and are, out there. The problem with all of them is that they are danged expensive. $1,000!

This would mean that we shouldn't expect HD playback for almost another year. Bonkers!

Apple must take sides now. If they put players in their less expensive machines, they will influence the outcome. Those who don't agree with that haven't paid attention to the figures.

Apple users buy digital downloads, and media, at a far higher clip than do their PC buying friends.

Sony has sold millions of PS3's, while MS has sold only 120 thousand HD-DVD add-ons for the 360. While HD-DVD has sold about 35% more stand alone players than has Blu-Ray, BD movies are selling at a 2 to 1 clip. That's important, because it's the amount of media sold that will determine who wins this.

If Apple could add a few million more BD players to the mix this year, it could move BD over the top.

Apple must get involved.


I doubt it. What's in it for Apple? If BD wins ...so what. Time Machine doesn't work with BD discs. BD means Apple has to add DRM virtual machine to their OS that's already showing weakness. Apple doesn't own studios so they reap any rewards there. Most of the people screaming about HD DVD or Blu-ray and killing format wars are doing so for their own edification. They want to know that "they" are buying the right product. Whateva..it's not rocket science here. Even if either format dies they will still playback great HD content seeing as how HD camcorders are growing very fast.
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post #105 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancho View Post

Storage size for backups AND media durability are huge for me. Why didn't HD-DVD go for better durability as well?

Because HD DVD didn't go for better anything.

Current capacity: 60% of Blu-ray for each layer.
Future capacity: Prototype Blu-ray discs have been made with up to 8 layers. HD DVD is struggling to get to three.
Read speed: Slower than Blu-ray.
Burner speed: Slower than Blu-ray and likely to stay that way since the older DVD technology it's based on is causing too many problems with the blue laser scattering in the thick substrate.
Scratch resistance: Far lower than Blu-ray.
Long term archival stability: Questionable since it uses organic dyes just like writable DVDs and CDs, while BD-R uses phase-change material.
Price: Much vaunted, but in practice, writable HD DVD discs have turned out to be more expensive than Blu-ray blanks in terms of $/GB, and slower as well (1x rated compared with 2x rated).

Quite frankly, for computer use, there's not a single advantage to HD DVD. And that's why Apple would be smart to choose Blu-ray.
post #106 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by w00master View Post

Significantly greater storage capacity? I could care less. That's what Hard Drives are for.

Hard drives aren't archival devices.
post #107 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Because HD DVD didn't go for better anything.


Quite frankly, for computer use, there's not a single advantage to HD DVD. And that's why Apple would be smart to choose Blu-ray.

All HD DVD players have access to the internet- all of them. Blu-ray players do not. Know what you are speaking about before you put your foot in your mouth.
post #108 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

All HD DVD players have access to the internet- all of them. Blu-ray players do not. Know what you are speaking about before you put your foot in your mouth.

I think he means for computer uses and not STB movie playback. I'd agree with him as well. Blu-ray has more of an advantage within a computing realm than HD DVD but I still think Optical technology is only good when it's really cheap. I don't have a use for $14 writable discs (too expensive). I generally don't need to transport 25-50GB of data.

I think online backups will be the future coupled with pooled (and redundant) storage at home (think ZFS). Portable storage will be handled by flash drives (once 16GB can be had for less than $50).
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post #109 of 153
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Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

All HD DVD players have access to the internet- all of them. Blu-ray players do not. Know what you are speaking about before you put your foot in your mouth.

Soooo, use your HD DVD player for computer purposes much? Somebody definitely put his foot deep into his mouth here and it's not me.

P.S. The best-selling Blu-ray player is the PS3, which -- surprise -- can access the net. It can even do it wirelessly out of the box if you already have a wireless router. Can your beloved HD DVD players do that?
post #110 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

P.S. The best-selling Blu-ray player is the PS3, which -- surprise -- can access the net. It can even do it wirelessly out of the box if you already have a wireless router. Can your beloved HD DVD players do that?

The xBox-flavored ones can, yes. Difference is, the HD DVDs can actually do something once they get online, while blu-Ray won't get internet-based features until they reach their Profile 2.0 status this time next year. That's HD DVD's big advantage by the way; it's a finished format
post #111 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by warnergt View Post

Quite. HD-DVD and Blu-ray are not content. Content is what goes onto those media.
Apple does indeed market a complete line of HD content creation tools.

true enough, however what is the point of creating 'content' if you have nowhere to put it (ie on a medium such as Blu-Ray or HD-DVD) for consumption?

Quote:
And stop saying "um."

um, no.
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post #112 of 153
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Our sources indicate that the possible names of this new product include 'MacBook mini' or 'MacBook slim'.


Call it the MacBook 2. Simple. Elegant. Effective. Co-exists with the MacBook and MacBook Pro.

post #113 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancho View Post

Storage size for backups AND media durability are huge for me. Why didn't HD-DVD go for better durability as well?

51GB of storage space is the highest amount ratiefied amongst both platforms and that is with HD DVD (of course no discs have been made in that Triple Layer config yet)

HD DVD doesn't need a protective layer because its protection layer is 6x thicker than Blu-ray. While many tout the durability of Blu-ray let is not forget that it's scratch resistent but if you should happen to penetrate the film covering your disc is toast and cannot be repaird. HD DVD can be repared using the same DVD disc repair technique.
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post #114 of 153
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Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

I think he means for computer uses and not STB movie playback. I'd agree with him as well. Blu-ray has more of an advantage within a computing realm than HD DVD but I still think Optical technology is only good when it's really cheap. I don't have a use for $14 writable discs (too expensive). I generally don't need to transport 25-50GB of data.

I think online backups will be the future coupled with pooled (and redundant) storage at home (think ZFS). Portable storage will be handled by flash drives (once 16GB can be had for less than $50).

Irony?

A $14 disc holding 25-50GB is no good compared to a $50 16GB flash drive

BTW remember when CDs were $20 then they were $15 then they were $10.. now what are they? pennys??
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post #115 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by w00master View Post

I definitely understand this, and as a fellow movie buff I completely understand this, but it's been proven time and time again that the quality between HD DVD and Blu-ray is practically non-existent, so why is everyone in such a hurry in getting either format immediately and then having a debate about which is better?

Frankly, NEITHER are any worth any salt. Until content is there, until there's a multi-format player, it's not worth getting either one.

w00master

I would say it's pretty much impossible to judge whether one format delivers higher quality than the other. Dual format releases from Warner (and previously Paramount) are using the same video encodes and thus should look exactly the same. But Paramount stated that Transformers on HD DVD lacked lossless audio because there was insufficient disc space, which seems to clearly indicate that HD DVD is already reaching certain limits. And it makes you wonder what compromises Warner has to make with audio and video when creating dual format releases. Or look at a release like Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix where the Blu-Ray contains 12 audio tracks versus 4 on the HD DVD, which is great from a studio perspective since than can produce one disc usable in every market instead of having to create a U.S. version, German version, Japanese version, etc.

I also never said that either format was better than the other. At the time I purchased my PS3, the only HD DVD exclusive studio was Universal, thus the format war winner seemed a pretty foregone conclusion.

I do not understand your comment about there not being content. I already own 50 movies on Blu-Ray (only 6 of which I previously owned on DVD) and if I could afford it, I'd probably own 2 or 3 times that number.

If you really want content to grow, dual-format players are not the answer. They are the death of both formats. Movie studios, movie retailers, electronics manufacturers, and consumers do not want two formats to deal with.
post #116 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

The xBox-flavored ones can, yes. Difference is, the HD DVDs can actually do something once they get online, while blu-Ray won't get internet-based features until they reach their Profile 2.0 status this time next year. That's HD DVD's big advantage by the way; it's a finished format

With luck, Apple choosing Blu-ray will help turn HD DVD into a finished format.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

51GB of storage space is the highest amount ratiefied amongst both platforms and that is with HD DVD (of course no discs have been made in that Triple Layer config yet)

And probably never will. It's vaporware they've been touting for over a year. Besides, you conveniently omit that even Toshiba itself has admitted that the third layer would have a lot of read errors, so it will not have 51GB capacity in the real world sense. I don't even want to think about the write errors if they ever created triple layer HD DVD-R.

Quote:
HD DVD doesn't need a protective layer because its protection layer is 6x thicker than Blu-ray. While many tout the durability of Blu-ray let is not forget that it's scratch resistent but if you should happen to penetrate the film covering your disc is toast and cannot be repaird. HD DVD can be repared using the same DVD disc repair technique.

Something strong enough to penetrate the Durabis coating on a Blu-ray disc would create a scratch too deep to polish out on an HD DVD disc. So much for your repair.
post #117 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by w00master View Post

Sony influence is better than MS? Please, explain how?

Significantly greater storage capacity? I could care less. That's what Hard Drives are for.

I'm not a big fan of MS any more than any of us here, but seriously how is Sony better? Sorry, I don't buy it at all.

w00master

BD uses Java to run the disk OS. HD-DVD uses a MS software standard. I would like to move away from more MS control over standards.

Sony has done a few stupid things the lasp couple of years, but it's not a determined attack on everything as Ms has done over the past two decades. Big difference.

HDD storage has nothing to do with Bd and HD-DVD disk capacity.

But, if you're a photographer, or moviemaker, you would appreciate the 50 GB of recordable back-up BD gives you over the 30 GB of HD-DVD. We really don't like storing our files on a HDD. There are good reasons why that is no good for more than short term storage, though many are forced to do so.
post #118 of 153
Oops. This got screwed up.
post #119 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

Where did yo get any idea I was saying anything different about the PS3?

I went from this statement:

Quote:
Probably because there are a vast amount of PS3's are gaming consoles, and not movie players. Duh..

I if that wasn't what you meant, then I apologize.
post #120 of 153
The 100 GB disk by Hitatachi already works with existing Blu Ray heads. All that was needed was a firmware update. PS3 was the guinea pig.
onlooker
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onlooker
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http://www.apple.com/feedback/macpro.html
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