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Apple developing dynamic OLED-based keyboard - Page 2

post #41 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

And Lebedev isn't using these on all the keys as first stated, just a few, because of cost, I would imagine. I would think that Apple's engineers know a bit more than he does.

No, he is...he's selling four variants of the keyboard, ranging in price from about $450 to over $1500: one with just an OLED space bar; one with the ten function keys on the left side, one with the alpha keys, and one with all the keys.
post #42 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by macbookschmo View Post

I'd be more excited about adding a iphone/ ipod touch like multi touch screen on the side of the keyboard or next to the trackpad for multi-touch gestures, custom buttons, etc. This would probably work better on a laptop, but maybe it's too much like sideshow for Vista.

Maybe you want something more like the Optimus Tactus then: http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus-tactus/

Coming in, uh, ...
post #43 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by cromulent View Post

No, he is...he's selling four variants of the keyboard, ranging in price from about $450 to over $1500: one with just an OLED space bar; one with the ten function keys on the left side, one with the alpha keys, and one with all the keys.

Last I was on his site, admittedly 6 months or so ago, he had given up on the all key OLEDS, and the price was over $1,000 for what he was selling.

Whatever, it's vastly overpriced for what it does, though his production costs are also high.
post #44 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Are we talking e-ink or e-paper here?

edit: http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/03/l...isplay-for-ces

Thanks for posting that link! I read that too... color e-paper is very real.
post #45 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferry13 View Post

Thanks for posting that link! I read that too... color e-paper is very real.

If you actually READ what it said, you would see that it isn't a product. It's for show only. Experimental.

Quote:
It'll be at CES, but apparently only for Korean models to hold and love. The rest of us? Not so lucky, not even by a long shot.
post #46 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

If you actually READ what it said, you would see that it isn't a product. It's for show only. Experimental.

Hey, no reason to raise your voice here... We are talking about future products, right? So that link seems relevant to me.
post #47 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferry13 View Post

Hey, no reason to raise your voice here... We are talking about future products, right? So that link seems relevant to me.

We're talking about products that will be in the future, yes, but you can't ever assume that an experimental technology will work out. Even OLED's aren't doing too well. Large sizes are already three years behind expectations. E-Ink, is also not doing as well as predicted, and color is proving more difficult than was thought two years ago, when I was shown one of the first samples.

So, when you said it was very real, as a response to what I had said about it, it simply isn't true. Real, means products.
post #48 of 74
*cough* Optimus Maximus *cough*
post #49 of 74
This can Already be done... you just can't see it like you could with OLED keyboard. Of course that would require a modification to the running kernel, but no sweat either way, right?
post #50 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by amerist View Post

This can Already be done... you just can't see it like you could with OLED keyboard. Of course that would require a modification to the running kernel, but no sweat either way, right?

Exactly?
post #51 of 74
Some people here have been suggesting multi-touch screens or "e-paper"-type solutions, but the problem with these is the lack of tactile feedback. Keyboards are much more difficult to use when you can't *feel* where the keys are. It's not as important with smaller applications (i.e. the iPhone), but I imagine most of us (at least the touch-typists) would not want it for our full-time main keyboard.
post #52 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Ireland, you're still crazy.

Lebedev first came up with this almost three years ago.

Not the full-screen version.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #53 of 74
If the Dock could be along the top of the keyboard instead of on the screen it could save valuable screen real-estate.
post #54 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

If the Dock could be along the top of the keyboard instead of on the screen it could save valuable screen real-estate.

Yup, that's a good idea, and it has been said a few times for that reason.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #55 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

I really think they could just do this with a multitouch keyboard.

The developers could create keys and control interfaces that match apps and change at a whim.

You have to solve everyone's tendency to rest their fingers on the keys without triggering a key event.
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post #56 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Not the full-screen version.

i meant that you're still crazy, whether or not he did.

By full screen version, do you mean the "concept" keyboard, or the one he first announced, then said he couldn't do, then apparently decided he could, though it doesn't seem to be a shipping product yet?
post #57 of 74
Too power hungry. This is an application for eink, and nothing else.

Furthermore, I think it's just a patent for patent's sake.
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post #58 of 74
I'd like to point out that apple has had a patent on display based keys since at least 1997. I actually saw some prototype ones back then, and Art's idea only showed up around the time a few other firms showed some mockups of "future" design.

Apple's patent is well founded, and seriously owns the whole gamut of key based input, including each key having a sensor under the display so that they could show hand shadows on the screen or illuminate just the key you were about to hit, similar to how the iphone key gets bigger.

I've seen it with my own two eyes. While art's optimus keyboard is cool, it doesn't hold a candle to the stuff I've seen from Apple and that was at least 3-4 years back.
post #59 of 74
Also btw the coolest prototype I've ever seen from Apple involved what some have seen in those mockups where the touchpad surface is a full bar. I saw two different kinds. One that was full touch area, with much more recessed and flat button (still could feel it) and the whole bottom could be used with a stylus to draw stuff. I've also seen the trackpad enlarged with a display that would show interesting data, or hand functions that you could do to manipulate screen objects.
post #60 of 74
Since only a single keyboard design (physically) has to be produced, the rest being handled by software.

One thing that may be different b/w Lebedev's and and this design is (conceptual) resolution of button images. Optimus uses sufficiently high res to be able to display icons. Patent filing by apple seems to suggest a rather low res (but then again -- this si only based on the sketches, not the real thing)...
post #61 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceesaxp View Post

Since only a single keyboard design (physically) has to be produced, the rest being handled by software.

One thing that may be different b/w Lebedev's and and this design is (conceptual) resolution of button images. Optimus uses sufficiently high res to be able to display icons. Patent filing by apple seems to suggest a rather low res (but then again -- this si only based on the sketches, not the real thing)...

Apple one would be very high res. that much we can promise.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #62 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Apple one would be very high res. that much we can promise.

How can you promise that? I see no reson why a keyboard button would have to be high resolution. It just has to be high enough to display the text or simple icons perceptibly.
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post #63 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

How can you promise that? I see no reson why a keyboard button would have to be high resolution. It just has to be high enough to display the text or simple icons perceptibly.

The Apple one would be a screen, not a series of tiny OLED buttons. I know they patented such, but the iPhone says all that needs to be said.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of a rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #64 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by googleplex View Post

This would be a godsend for gaming....

I don't see how OLED or e-ink keycaps are supposed to significantly contribute to gaming, barring the possible design of new games specifically for the keyboard, and I don't know if that even would bring anything to the table. The only current genre that comes to mind that might be nicely convenienced is aircraft simulation, and it is a niche well below one percent.
post #65 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

How can you promise that? I see no reson why a keyboard button would have to be high resolution. It just has to be high enough to display the text or simple icons perceptibly.

I'm holding Ireland to it though.

If Apple comes out with one, and it's NOT high resolution, I'm going to institute a class action lawsuit against Ireland for Apple's not delivering on his promise.
post #66 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

I don't see how OLED or e-ink keycaps are supposed to significantly contribute to gaming, barring the possible design of new games specifically for the keyboard, and I don't know if that even would bring anything to the table. The only current genre that comes to mind that might be nicely convenienced is aircraft simulation, and it is a niche well below one percent.

The only use, and it's is a big one for pro use at least, is to have each key properly labeled as to its use in that particular program.

How many times has someone, in games, as well as in other programs, hesitated, because they forgot which was the correct key?

It happens pretty often.

It's even useful in more mundane programs. Do you always remember which characters you get when hitting the option key? Or the control key, etc?
post #67 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The only use, and it's is a big one for pro use at least, is to have each key properly labeled as to its use in that particular program.

How many times has someone, in games, as well as in other programs, hesitated, because they forgot which was the correct key?

It happens pretty often.

It's even useful in more mundane programs. Do you always remember which characters you get when hitting the option key? Or the control key, etc?

I sure know a lot of editors who'd grab one. Most editing suites from Avid to Final Cut do well with specialized keyboards. Yeah, pros would love these sort of things. Also music suites would have fun (home and pro).
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post #68 of 74
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Originally Posted by mzaslove View Post

I sure know a lot of editors who'd grab one. Most editing suites from Avid to Final Cut do well with specialized keyboards. Yeah, pros would love these sort of things. Also music suites would have fun (home and pro).

I have two. One for Photoshop, and one for Final Cut Studio. Each cost $225. There are cheaper ones (not by much!), but I like quality keyboards for this stuff.

A keyboard that allowed each key to change would be worth a good $350 to me if it could be used for those programs, and for characters. Games would be nice, but I imagine that each company could program for its own needs. Probably would be easy to do so.

The fewer keyboards I have, the better.
post #69 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I have two. One for Photoshop, and one for Final Cut Studio. Each cost $225. There are cheaper ones (not by much!), but I like quality keyboards for this stuff.

A keyboard that allowed each key to change would be worth a good $350 to me if it could be used for those programs, and for characters. Games would be nice, but I imagine that each company could program for its own needs. Probably would be easy to do so.

The fewer keyboards I have, the better.

Be great if the app came with its own keyboard configuration if you wanted to use it, be it games, editing, etc. Then modify it as you saw fit. It would make my life a little easier (I hate multiple keyboards, too).
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post #70 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzaslove View Post

Be great if the app came with its own keyboard configuration if you wanted to use it, be it games, editing, etc. Then modify it as you saw fit. It would make my life a little easier (I hate multiple keyboards, too).

It would likely be just a matter of doing the icons, and putting them into some sort of format that Apple specs. Then I imagine you could just go to the keyboard icon on the menubar, and choose which layout you wanted to use, as you can do now.

I suppose if Apple didn't do it, someone could write something that would allow you to download all sorts of icons the way you can do now for folders, and replace individual ones.

Possibly we would see a new version of Candybar for this.
post #71 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It would likely be just a matter of doing the icons, and putting them into some sort of format that Apple specs. Then I imagine you could just go to the keyboard icon on the menubar, and choose which layout you wanted to use, as you can do now.

I suppose if Apple didn't do it, someone could write something that would allow you to download all sorts of icons the way you can do now for folders, and replace individual ones.

Possibly we would see a new version of Candybar for this.

Seems easy when you say it. I'm sure if they don't do this sort of keyboard now, one will eventually come out. Once there, I could see many other uses to make life easier. Anyone who uses shortcuts in a office/business applications could put a few on their keyboards, that sort of thing.

I like the CandyBar idea -- be a snap for a small company to do that, or maybe a la some of Adobe's apps, instead of just Workspaces one can save, they can save keyboard iterations.

Lots of fun stuff to do.
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post #72 of 74
A keyboard that works multi nationally, or for any game?

Problem solved, for $80 US!!



OLED does look to be the future of keyboard technology, hopefully it won't take too long to come down in price.
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post #73 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The only use, and it's is a big one for pro use at least, is to have each key properly labeled as to its use in that particular program.

How many times has someone, in games, as well as in other programs, hesitated, because they forgot which was the correct key?

It happens pretty often.

Games are a bit different. They don't use anywhere near as many buttons on average than productivity apps use for shortcuts, and they strongly encourage you to learn the key by touch. It's easier to do so because of the high frequency of their use in the game, it's more necessary because looking away from the screen usually hurts your game performance, and it's not half as much work because gamers bring in their preferred control schemes from past games by keymapping and that usually leaves them with only minimal new controls to learn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

I have two. One for Photoshop, and one for Final Cut Studio. Each cost $225. There are cheaper ones (not by much!), but I like quality keyboards for this stuff.



I'm all for putting money in good keyboards, and that's well within reasonable to pay for a good one... but I have messed around with Photoshop on 100% amateur level when it was at version 4 and I was fifteen (I went through one of the thicker PS guide books and did the exercises), and had all shortcuts down just with my normal system of shortcut learning.

I have long entertained the idea that when you learn shortcuts in more than one app, it might be a good thing that your memory doesn't map them directly from function to physical key, but from function to character to key instead, because the physical act of pressing the key without thinking about it is hard and memorizing function to character is really easy in comparison. When split to the two parts, the harder character to key part is shared between all apps. The function specific keytops work against this. Thoughts?
post #74 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

Games are a bit different. They don't use anywhere near as many buttons on average than productivity apps use for shortcuts, and they strongly encourage you to learn the key by touch. It's easier to do so because of the high frequency of their use in the game, it's more necessary because looking away from the screen usually hurts your game performance, and it's not half as much work because gamers bring in their preferred control schemes from past games by keymapping and that usually leaves them with only minimal new controls to learn.

You have to be proficient with the keyboards in all of these apps. But there is a learning curve. Don't forget that each game can have its own special keys. They are not all alike. After you finish that game, which can take from a few days to a few weeks, you go on to another. This type of keyboard would be very helpful. there could be special keys that you can use for special items. How many games make you cycle amongst the weapons you carry? Or amongst the stuff in your backpack? In a situation where you needed something very quickly, it would be better to just go to the key and click it, rather than to have to click through all your stuff.

Quote:
I'm all for putting money in good keyboards, and that's well within reasonable to pay for a good one... but I have messed around with Photoshop on 100% amateur level when it was at version 4 and I was fifteen (I went through one of the thicker PS guide books and did the exercises), and had all shortcuts down just with my normal system of shortcut learning.

Yeah. Well, I've been a pro user, beta tester, and teacher of PS from when it first came out, and I know the program pretty well. But, still, I appreciate my PS keyboard.

Quote:
I have long entertained the idea that when you learn shortcuts in more than one app, it might be a good thing that your memory doesn't map them directly from function to physical key, but from function to character to key instead, because the physical act of pressing the key without thinking about it is hard and memorizing function to character is really easy in comparison. When split to the two parts, the harder character to key part is shared between all apps. The function specific keytops work against this. Thoughts?

Everyone is different, but editors, as a group, would not agree with you.

Going back in time to the old hardware word processing computers, such as the Wangs, the keyboards, which had extra keys (and the function keys were actually used back then), all had as many keys as possible labeled as to their functions, so this idea is nothing new.
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