Originally Posted by hardeeharhar
Irrelevant! Clearly you didn't learn how to not be lead by your own arguments. I never claimed they were anything. My only point is that not everyone earning below minimum wage gets them...
Seems like you have been caught with your hand in the cookie jar.
The minimum wage isn't meant to be the salary pursued by people taking benefit of society... it is the salary given to people who cannot take benefit -- the unemployed person whose skills are no longer desired, the mentally handicapped person who cannot work in a higher paying job etc... This is borne out in the fact that very few people work for minimum wage.
First you complain that the minimum wage should be raised because it is for those who will never rise above it due to the fact they "cannot take benefit."
Then it is pointed out that the government provides aid and benefits for those who cannot rise above minimum wage due to inherit limitations. You then complain that not everyone will receive these benefits. Obviously they will not receive them due to the fact that they are NOT limited and thus will be able to rise above the bottom rung.
So I've disproven your point completely. Those who are disabled receive benefits. Thus the minimum wage is offset for them if they cannot rise above it. Those who are not disabled earn it until their skills, productivity and education improve and move on. You've argued minimum wage is essentially a government wealth transfer to those who cannot earn more. The government has plenty of other means of transferring wealth without the minimum wage. For those who are able to be gainfully employed, their choices become more and more limited due to the government limitation on wages which imposes a level of productivity and commitment higher than they may desire to seek. The choice now is often full-time or unemployment. Choice has been removed in the name of social justice. Irony yet again.
Bull... wait for it.... shit... It incrementally increases the quality of life of people on the lowest rung, until it is sopped up by normal capitalist economic growth. The point is that the minimum wage should be set to grow and shrink with the cost of living. That is the least a civilized society can do...
You've got two people cataloging your insults and dismissals posing as reasoning. The words irrelevant and bullshit do nothing to assert or support your claims. You sound like a bully who is getting more upset that we don't yield to your insults.
When a minimum wage raises the cost of living, and you then demand it rise again to meet the new cost which again rises because of the increased wage, it is a nightmarish version of circular reasoning posing as social justice. This isn't something I've made up. We've had a minimum wage for 70 years and the purchasing power has not changed during that time.
Perhaps we should be like our friends in France with their enlightened employment practices. Clearly they demand higher wages and have much higher unemployment as a result. They also have thousands of cars burned each year as protest against this enlightened social justice that keeps them unemployed. Of course it has recently dropped to less than 8% for the first time in almost six years but that nothing to do with that evil Sarkozy. It is just coincidence
I am sure.
I'll be waiting for the incredible counterpoints you make like ... irrelevant and bullshit....
Um... It is a zero sum game all around -- you cannot possibly expect to increase the health of your economy by grounding people into the, er, um, ground.
Why put them into the ground? Let's turn them into cake instead! Any more platitudes and hyperbole to toss out?
There is value in keeping civil unrest to a minimum, ensuring the comfort of your daily strolls outside, etc etc.
Sure pay the looters at a loss or be prepared to be killed. Extortion by any other name stinks just as bad. Don't forget that Atlas can shrug as well.
To ignore the fact that hard nosed economic theories (which have ultimately failed in their fullest forms) are coupled to more than simply how some abstract individuals live, is to truly forget that the economy is not the only driving force in society.
While economics cannot explain everything, it has certainly done a better job than say.. communism.
The crime rate, for instance, in Philadelphia (and elsewhere) has ebbed and flowed with the economic fortunes of those who do work minimum wage jobs.
It has also ebbed and flowed with the government monies to pay for more enforcement during the more flush times. It has ebbed and flowed when government realizes that concentrating their social interventions via public housing and public assistance creates massive problems. Finally it ebbs and flows when government requires efforts be made of those receiving assistance versus no efforts.
The vitality of the fraction of society on the bottom edge of our social structure demands an appreciation of the not-so-subtle greater social ills associated with a permanent underclass. Minimum wage and other social programs are our pounds of flesh for penances of our social success. We have them and we operate with them as a way to avoid the obvious impossibilities of trying to survive in a society with a large permanent underclass...
Vitality... I thought they were those who could not take benefit. You go from declaring them infirmed and incapable of work to being healthy mobs who have the will to extract that pound of flesh lest we give up all of our flesh and our lives as well in their mob rule.
Technology will replace people and it should. The only way to increase wages is to increase the value of the employees (and not necessarily their output).
Stop... stop... you are killing me.
The only way to increase their wages is to increase their value... unless of course we demand the employer pay a minimum value regardless of whether the job can provide that.
Productivity is a limited and ultimately ruinous perspective on this value. We are in an economic reality in which goods are produced by entities that do not need to get paid -- that economic value is added by machine.
Productivity is ruinous... wow. I don't think I've ever heard that expressed by anyone before. What else is ruinous... printing presses... the electric light bulb... the internet?
Raising minimum wage to keep with inflation only accounts for the challenges these people face in their everyday lives. To ignore this fact is to be callously ignorant of how difficult it is to live at or below the *local* poverty line...
What raising minimum wage does is make it harder to gain employment experience and makes flexibility impossible. When the cost of hiring someone becomes high, you end up with fewer people employed and that means those employed must choose to be very skilled and also likely full-time workers.
I've seen plenty of day-workers hired here in California. I can tell you that it would be impossible for you to get any manual labor done from them for less than $10 an hour. To get paid the minimum wage you really must have absolutely minimal skills. When you raise the wage you raise the skills necessary and as such some people are permanently forced into unemployment since they can never grab onto the bottom rung and begin moving up.
I said nothing of the sort. It does increase their worth. It increases their survivability, which in turn reduces, in essence, their drain on society.
I believe your platitudes have tied themselves into an incomprehensible knot.
Originally Posted by MarcUK
when you've got a spare half hour ish...http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...74362583451279
note; the video stutters a bit for a few minutes around 4 minutes in, but sorts itself out after a moment.
What do you financial guys think of this? Aren't we all fucked when interest debt is increasing exponentially?
Yes we are screwed but this is what happens when you let the government play with currency in the name of platitudes. It is the government that outlawed private money and the ownership of gold in the United States. How do you think those folks felt with FDR signed the gold confiscation act which forced them to sell their gold at $20 an ounce and then immediately dropped the value of the dollar to $35 per ounce. All those people holding all that paper lost an awful lot of value with the swipe of a pen. Worse still as you have noted, the paper pile has been growing every since.
Money does not have to be based on gold but whatever is used does have to retain and hold value without the government manipulating it. No one wants to work for an hour and then with the swipe of a pen, have the benefits of that work be reduced to that which now requires two or three hours to garner the same value.