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Apple's preps iTunes 7.6 with support for movie rentals - Page 3

post #81 of 91
1/9/08 at 8:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

The DCMA is Federal law. It specifically states that it is illegal to circumvent encryption. While the copyrighted work is owned by the studios they can't tell an indivdual (or Apple) its okay to break Federal law and circumvent the DVD encryption. Nothing written in the DMCA allows content owners this level of control.

Dave

It's the content owners who DO have this level of control. No one else does.
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post #82 of 91
1/9/08 at 8:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

I am arguing that the studios can't give Apple or any other company the ability to rip the DVD. The studios are only the license holders of the copyrighted work contained on the encrypted DVD. They only have the ability to distribute the work. They don't have the ability authorize Apple to rip (i.e., break encryption) a DVD. They do have the ability to give the encryption keys to Apple so they can decrypt DVD contents (if this is what you mean by your past statements).

The news story on AI, was the idea that the studios would inlcude another electronic file on the DVD in which iTunes could read. This is fine. But it isn't giving Apple (or anyone else) the ability to circumvent DVD encryption. The iTunes compatible file will be like the DVD extras that are only accessible on a Mac/PC.

Dave

It's not that simple. The studios, in the majority of cases, DO own the copyrights. In some cases, some bigger studios are distributers of material for smaller studios, and then, what you say is correct.
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post #83 of 91
1/9/08 at 8:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

The news story on AI, was the idea that the studios would inlcude another electronic file on the DVD in which iTunes could read. This is fine. But it isn't giving Apple (or anyone else) the ability to circumvent DVD encryption. The iTunes compatible file will be like the DVD extras that are only accessible on a Mac/PC.

Yes, I understand this. And that's why I know it's a rubbish idea because it offers no flexibility. If the file is for the iPod, that guarantees that it'll be a low-res, low bit-rate file with no surround sound.

If you could rip the actual main DVD title, that would allow for much greater flexibility, as I stated earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

Okay. Let's step back for a moment. I believe you brought up the idea of giving iTunes the ability to rip a DVD here:

Yes, I did state that, but with the important proviso that DRM would be involved, including the software asking for the original DVD to be inserted from time to time to ensure it wasn't a rented or borrowed DVD that was ripped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

I am arguing that the studios can't give Apple or any other company the ability to rip the DVD. The studios are only the license holders of the copyrighted work contained on the encrypted DVD. They only have the ability to distribute the work. They don't have the ability authorize Apple to rip (i.e., break encryption) a DVD. They do have the ability to give the encryption keys to Apple so they can decrypt DVD contents (if this is what you mean by your past statements).

And I'm arguing two important things:

1.) Apple is a license holder for CSS, which means it wouldn't be "cracking" the encryption, in addition it would add DRM to the ripped file and therefore one copy protection is exchanged for another. Nothing is circumvented.

2.) The DMCA allows for the studios to take a company to court if they distribute software intended for the circumvention of copy protection. If said studios had an agreement in place with Apple, why would they then take them to court?
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post #84 of 91
1/9/08 at 9:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Yes, I understand this. And that why I know it's a rubbish idea because it offers no flexibility. If the file is for the iPod, that guarantees that it'll be a low-res, low bit-rate file with no surround sound.

If you could rip the actual main DVD title, that would allow for much greater flexibility, as I stated earlier.



Yes, I did state that, but with the important proviso that DRM would be involved, including the software asking for the original DVD to be inserted from time to time to ensure it wasn't a rented or borrowed DVD that was ripped.



And I'm arguing two important things:

1.) Apple is a license holder for CSS, which means it wouldn't be "cracking" the encryption, in addition it would add DRM to the ripped file and therefore one copy protection is exchanged for another. Nothing is circumvented.

2.) The DMCA allows for the studios to take a company to court if they distribute software intended for the circumvention of copy protection. If said studios had an agreement in place with Apple, why would they then take them to court?

The chances of studios allowing you to rip a DVD are slim to slightly more than none. Even with this file, chances are, as someone suggested earlier, the DVD will come with a paper containing an activation number that iTunes will ask for when you try to play the file on your computer. Once you use that activation number, iTunes will insert the DRM into the file and the activation code will either be deactivated in the iTunes database or forever associated with your iTunes ID.

The idea that the studios would ever give you the freedom to just rip the movie are pretty hopeless. Even with the idea of making you reinsert the DVD every again (what a pain that would be).

I think the point is to provide a portable copy for iPods. If you have the DVD, why do you need another version for home usage?
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post #85 of 91
1/9/08 at 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius View Post

I think the point is to provide a portable copy for iPods. If you have the DVD, why do you need another version for home usage?

Ever heard of AppleTV and associated devices? So far they haven't caught on and this is obviously because most people don't know how to rip DVDs. If iTunes and the like made it simple then the sector would start to grow more quickly.
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post #86 of 91
1/9/08 at 12:40pm
I assume it's the DMCA that has forced Apple to disable ANY screen capture while DVD Player is open, even when it's minimized.
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post #87 of 91
1/9/08 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Ever heard of AppleTV and associated devices? So far they haven't caught on and this is obviously because most people don't know how to rip DVDs. If iTunes and the like made it simple then the sector would start to grow more quickly.

Most people have no interest in ripping DVD's. When content arrives on itunes in respectable amounts, it will be different.
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post #88 of 91
1/9/08 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Most people have no interest in ripping DVD's. When content arrives on itunes in respectable amounts, it will be different.

I don't know about that. Didn't CD ripping take off before online stores did?

If people already have a collection of DVDs, it makes sense that they would rather rip them than purchase the same content again in a different (currently inferior) format.

Another reason that DVD ripping hasn't fully taken-off is the amount of time it takes; it's still a fair while, but it won't be long before you can rip a DVD and compress it to H.264 in about 15 mins. You would have thought the studios would like to have a mass-market ripping solution out there that adds DRM before everyone gets used to the open-source rippers out there that offer no such protection.
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post #89 of 91
1/9/08 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

I don't know about that. Didn't CD ripping take off before online stores did?

If people already have a collection of DVDs, it makes sense that they would rather rip them than purchase the same content again in a different (currently inferior) format.

Another reason that DVD ripping hasn't fully taken-off is the amount of time it takes; it's still a fair while, but it won't be long before you can rip a DVD and compress it to H.264 in about 15 mins. You would have thought the studios would like to have a mass-market ripping solution out there that adds DRM before everyone gets used to the open-source rippers out there that offer no such protection.

CD ripping is different. It's always been easy because it's always been legal.

DVD ripping isn't easy, because you can't just use Apple's software, which is on the machine, or Toast. You must buy a special program for it. It also takes a long time. And it isn't legal.

Most people simply don't care either.
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post #90 of 91
1/9/08 at 6:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Then users could rip at a setting suitable for their target application (e.g. DVD resolution and high bit rate for AppleTV, lower resolution and bit rate for iPod.)

You'd have to encode twice to get the most from both devices and this is messy if you have quite a few films and the difference is more pronounced when considering HD and iPod content. I'd like to see iTunes generating additional video/audio tracks and syncing these to the external devices to keep it simple even though it swells the file size.

McD
Android proves (as Windows & VHS did before it) that if you want to control people, give us choices and the belief we're capable of making them. We're all 'living' the American dream.
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Android proves (as Windows & VHS did before it) that if you want to control people, give us choices and the belief we're capable of making them. We're all 'living' the American dream.
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post #91 of 91
1/9/08 at 11:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I assume it's the DMCA that has forced Apple to disable ANY screen capture while DVD Player is open, even when it's minimized.

No, its the CSS license. If Apple violates the DVD Forum rules, the forum will take away the CSS license and Apple will be unable to do anything will DVDs. Play, burn, create, ect..
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