Sources: Apple Newton-tablet not ripe for Macworld - Page 4

MP3 players were a new market. Memory was VERY expensive. I bought a Creative that took Smartmedia cards. One 64MB (YES! MB) card, that only allowed one album on it at 128K/s, cost about $100.

Not too many people were buying them. Also, ripping your own Cd's was a pain back then. The software wasn't nearly as easy to use for most people on the Mac, and the situation on the far larger PC market was even worse.

There was room for another player, and Apple was able to come out with a product that, at first, was just marketed to the Apple faithful. It was much better than the competition. Also, playing music is a simple thing.

With regards to tablets, the situation is different. The reason why PC tablets are such clunky things, with keyboards, is because people simply aren't ready to abandon keyboards. There is also no killer app that would REQUIRE a tablet, and that's important.

You can look at many industries that needed one thing to make it successful. What is that thing here? Multitouch? I don't think so. That is an enabler, but it needs something significant to enable.

On an iPhone/iTouch, with their tiny screens, a two finger motion to shrink or enlarge something is almost a necessity, but not so much on a large screen. Convenient? Maybe? Necessary? No.

Until one can type on the screen at rates approaching regular keyboards, which is still off in the future, the tablet will be limited.

Depends on the dock and the CPU on the tablet. If it is a reasonable CPU (x86 not ARM) and the dock interface has SATA, PCIe and USB then you could drive a 30" ACD from the dock with additional HDD space and peripherals when docked.

That should make it equal, more or less, to an iMac. GPU performance will be lower if the PCIe connection is only x1 but driving one or more monitors would be possible if you included some GPU that could support dual channel DVI in the dock and two DVI outputs.

What a lot of us are saying is that, while the tablet wouldn't have a keyboard attached to it, we suspect it will include bluetooth so you CAN use a regular keyboard when you want/need to. The software keyboard would most likely be used for quick things, like a sudden email. If you need to take notes, then a compatible pen (I recall on Mac Rumors something about that being working into new multitouch devices) would work fine. Not handwritting recognition alone though, a black page that will let you write on it.

But maybe you are right Melgross. Maybe they just need that killer app. Maybe that is why, if the rumors are true, it is being delayed. They have the hardware figured out but they just need that one little bit of software that will allow them to corner the market on tablets, that will make Microsoft go "Sonofagun, why didn't WE think of that?"

I agree with you on what you're saying. I do think that most people look at docks as being clumsy. There is a certain market for one, but I don't think it's that large.

It's funny though. Apple was one of the first, if not THE first to offer a dock, but abandoned them years ago, while PC manufacturers keep offering them.

I'd be curious to know what the sales numbers are for Docks.

Anyone have an idea?

I'm not sure that's what many of you are saying that at all. The idea of needing to carry a keyboard that's separate, almost everywhere you go, is not a "feature", but a bug!

I just can't see people who need to type, using a tablet at this time. The one problem with tablet keyboards is that you MUST look at them while you type. That's ok if what you're doing requires looking at the screen, which is part iof the keyboard.

But, if you're at a lecture, or in a meeting, you can't often do that. You must look at the speaker, or at what she's doing.

There must be some way for your fingers to "feel" the keys. Not only when you press them, but when they're resting on them as well. I have some ideas on that, but it's not something that anyone is doing yet.

Writing on the screen with a stylus would work, as handwriting recognition is getting better, but Jobs just doesn't like the stylus. We know that. It's one thing that limits what can be done with the iPhone/iTouch. It would also limit a tablet.

With no one here having any idea as to what Apple might even be thinking on these lines, it's safest to think that they won't be thinking anything they haven shown in products, or in their patent filings. I see no evidence for a stylus in either.

I see it the opposite. You don't need a killer app that would REQUIRE a tablet. You need an app that DOESN'T REQUIRE a keyboard. And there are a lot of those - most importantly Safari and iTunes.

I really think though that the hardware must be there first for a tablet to work. Fast low-power processor. Thin, durable and low-power display, etc. Great battery.

A display like this would make it all work- but it's a way off:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOYKAeBTiUg

Really?

And just how are you posting to this forum? Crayons?

Oh, and that display is quite a ways off, and would solve nothing.

What?! How are you going to input websites and post replies and access webmail, et cetera? The iTunes that doesn't require a keyboard is called the iPod.

How much of a hassle would that be? I mean, 1-you wouldn't NEED to carry it, just if you wanted the regular keyboard. and 2-Just get a sachel/laptop bag. That's my plan. You can get a simple one for $20. I know not everyone uses laptop bags...but I just don't understand why you WOULDN'T!

I need to type and I would love a tablet, cause I also need to draw. And yes, I think despite Jobs "not liking a stylus" it would have pen input. It wouldn't be the primary means of input. Most would be done by fingers. But for writing and drawing, yes, of course. Apple knows artists use their computers, that Macs are the standard for the field. They would want to be sure to appeal to them. I just don't think it is out of the realm of possibility.

Let me put it like this. If the tablet DIDN'T have the ability to pair with a bluetooth keyboard or have pen input, then I would have very little interest in it.

Sure, its safest, but this is fun! I like thinking up things I would like to see. Until tomorrow, we just don't know. Maybe they will! Maybe they wont! The random speculation is part of the FUN!

Business people and college students would need it almost all the time. Walking around campus going from class to class. In business, when don't you have to type?

I've already had someone tell me that she wouldn't like an ultralight because it won't have a built-in CD/DVD player. I asked how often she needed one, and the response was that it didn't matter, she didn't want to carry one around when she did need it.

It would be much worse for a keyboard.

And you can't make assumptions like, "even if Jobs doesn't like it, it will have a stylus".

If Jobs doesn't like it, it's not there. He already stated why he didn't like it.

Besides, there is no tablet product even rumored, so speculation as to how it will work is fruitless. We just can guess how it will not work by what we do know.

There will be those who don't fit the market and there are those who don't think they fit the market but do. I never saw myself getting an iPod until the iPod mini came to fruition. I also didn't like the new iPod nano "fatty" until I saw it in person and decided it was brilliant.

Apple has a long history of making people 180 their previous feeling about a technological path, I don't think that a optical drive-less portable will be any different.



I agree. If it were coming I'd expect the developer software for OS X would be filled with potential "killer apps" ideal for a Mac tablet.

They also have a habit of losing potential customers because of their ideas and designs. It cuts two ways.


There would be something.

All the time, but then many businesses use Microsoft Exchange and the iPhone (so far as I understand it) doesn't play nice with it. Yet lots of people still use it, even though it doesn't work with their business email.

So one woman didn't want to carry around a large extra drive? Well, no duh! Those are several pounds and not very slick. If she can't live without one, then an ultraportable isn't for her.

How would it be worse with a keyboard? I know my current aluminum keyboard is pretty light. The bluetooth one is pretty small, designed to sit on a lap. How is it worse? It seems like it would be better than carrying around an extra drive!

And I am not saying stylus. I am saying pen. Pen input. Yes, like a stylus, but not. A stylus is used as a primary input and creates only one line width. A pen, on the other hand, is a secondary input designed for specific uses. It is presure sensative so you can very your line width. The other end has a seperate input that acts as an eraser (though you can set it for other things). It could even have two buttons on the side for right clicking and other uses. A stylus is a buck. A pen is $60. (Yes, I used a Wacom pen as an example.)

And for Apple to NOT include it is a great big middle finger to all the artists and designers who have been waiting for one like myself, espcially those like me who don't want to pay $2000+ for a Modbook. Not to mention the fact that allowing pen input (again, as secondary, you wouldn't even HAVE to buy the pen if you didn't want too!) would allow it to appeal to a larger market and seem, over all, more practical.

Now I don't know WHY Jobs doesn't like it, I am not that big of a fan boy. I can assume it is simply because touching is easier than having to use a stylus. But there is that word, HAVING to use it. If Apple did it the way I hope they do, you don't HAVE to use the pen. BUT you do have the OPTION of using it if it would be bennificial. Also, why does LEOPARD still have Ink Well if they aren't considering somesort of Pen (or even stylus). If they were NEVER going to use it, then they would have gotten rid of it. I know with my Intous, I can use it, but its really hard cause I can't see what I am writing (should have waited and gotten the 12" Cinque...oh well!)

And yes, there is a tablet rumored. I understand it has been rumored for a while. The iPhone story not long ago stated that the phone was derived from technology that was being developed for an Apple Tablet. Beyond that, we don't know. And ALL speculation is fruitless because it is speculation. Odds are, it wont happen. It doesn't mean we can't have fun doing it!

You may be forgetting this device is meant to replace your laptop.

A tablet laptop replacement has NEVER worked before.

It has to be a companion device, not a replacement.

Besides, it makes business sense to sell BOTH to an individual consumer. To create a market where there is a desire/need for both.

Anyway, we'll see what happens tomorrow, and in the coming months.

Despite what way you look at it, I see the Mac touch as being a new market too. There currently is no market for tablets, Apple will create one. This device would be a huge hit in Asia.. as well as Europe.

I mean it will be a laptop replacement for some people, not everyone. More so for people with large desktops.

That's a poor example. And those using the iPhone for business are few. Besides that, software has already come out from several prominent companies that makes the iPhone a more attractive business investment.

[quote]
So one woman didn't want to carry around a large extra drive? Well, no duh! Those are several pounds and not very slick. If she can't live without one, then an ultraportable isn't for her. {/quote]

These drives only weigh a few ounces, not several pounds, certainly no more than ther keyboard would weigh.


It isn't the weight per se, but the fact that you need another device.


You want to argue semantics? A pen is even larger than a stylus. Jobs doesn't like the idea of a separate device needed for input. That's it.

I know how the Wacoms and other graphics tablets, work. I've used them since the '80's.


Now, you see the problem.

[quote]
Now I don't know WHY Jobs doesn't like it, I am not that big of a fan boy. I can assume it is simply because touching is easier than having to use a stylus. But there is that word, HAVING to use it. If Apple did it the way I hope they do, you don't HAVE to use the pen. BUT you do have the OPTION of using it if it would be bennificial. Also, why does LEOPARD still have Ink Well if they aren't considering somesort of Pen (or even stylus). If they were NEVER going to use it, then they would have gotten rid of it. I know with my Intous, I can use it, but its really hard cause I can't see what I am writing (should have waited and gotten the 12" Cinque...oh well!)

It was very simple, as I said above. I've already complained, last January, about the lack of the use of a stylus (pen, whatever). But, did Apple listen to me? No. Will they listen to you? No.


There is no tablet rumor. There is speculation on whether Apple will produce one. That is not the same as a rumor saying that Apple is about to produce one.

The only rumor on that front is for the Newton-like device, which is much smaller, and very different. One of those might eventually make it.

It's nice that you think so. But your thinking so doesn't make it true.

So far, there is about NO interest in a tablet, even here, with so far, just about three of four people being interested in the larger form you are pushing. About three times that number have given the ok for the Newton sized device, and the rest don't seem to care at all for either.

And these forums are more forward looking (techie) than the public at large.

I agree that the odds of Apple producing a stylus are nil.

But how possible would it be for, say, Griffin or even Wacom to sell a stylus that mimics the finger's magnetic field, only far smaller? Does the software assume a ~50px fingertip or is it actually aware of the size and shape of the area of contact?

If the former, oh well. If the latter there's a golden Third Party Opportunity.

I don't know. I've been thinking about that myself. If it were easily possible, then it should have been out already.

It's also a capacitive effect.

When I get my iPhone, later this year, if one isn't already out, I plan to do some tests and experiments. But, who knows? Sometimes, even knowing how it works, and why, isn't enough to work around the special characteristics of a real finger.

No its not a good example but meh, they can't all be winners.

I always thought the drives were pretty heavy. Oh well, I was never good at wieght estimation, but they are certainly THICKER than a current bluetooth keyboard. And again, you don't NEED the device, but you can use it if you want to (like the pen). If people want something attached, then perhaps this ultraportable macbook thing might be for them.

So Jobs doesn't like the NEED for a second device for input. That is what I suspected...but I am simply suggesting that, should Apple produce a tablet, it would be logical to have the option of a pen input to appeal to a wider audience. But a stylus and pen are two VERY different objects to me. And good, I am glad we are on the same page. I don't know what you have used and I want to make sure my point is being made.

I suppose I do, but I see a solution to that problem. The only question is, what would Apple do?

Did you actually complain TO Apple or just on the message boards? And I LIKE not having a stylus on the iPhone/iPod touch, I think it is appropriate there. On a full size tablet though, I think it would be more appealing to artists if it had wacom like pen functionality. And of course they aren't going to listen to me, but then I am not TRYING to get them to. I am simply stating my opinion on what I feel would be a good product on a message board of people with different opinions to enjoy a dialogue.

And now YOU are discussing symmantics. A pen is the same as a stylus but speculation is different from a rumor? A rumor is just speculation that "came from a source" and most turn out to probably be nonsense. And what about what the article said about Apple actually developing technology for a tablet PC that they took later to the iPhone. If this is true, then it wouldn't be too far to imagine that they are continuing to develop that technology into something else.

But you are missing my point with these statements. It doesn't MATTER if it is rumor or not. We are just discussing what we would LIKE TO SEE. Not what will happen. Not what is rumored, just what we would like to see. Why? Because it is FUN! WEEEEEEEE!

We might see solutions to problems that Apple doesn't see as problems. Two different things.

Yes, I actually complained (though that's not the word for it) to Apple, as well as making noise on the boards. I also know some people there, which is why I'm not expecting anything but finger input anytime soon.

I like my drawing program on my Treo. I also like the other programs that would be difficult with finger input. Some games for instance.

Speculation is very different from a rumor.

A rumor comes from a source that has reason to believe that something is about to happen, from movements of parts from suppliers, to inserted lines in the OS, or other programs, etc.

Speculation is just people getting together and saying "wouldn't it be great if Apple came out with...".

That so called "tablet" WAS the iPhone. Not a tablet. An unfortunate use of the wrong word.

We now have rumors of the small Newton device. That's about it. the rest is just speculation here, and on other sites.

I enjoy the fun of it as much as anyone. But, just as you have your idea as to what you WANT to happen, I have my idea as to what WON'T happen.

I can use some real numbers on my part.

A good (but unfortunate) point there.

Well good on ya! I know some people who say "Oh I complained" but only on message boards and made no real attempt!

Well, rumors lead to speculation and speculation leads to rumors. I mean, the way you describe rumors sounds like speculation still to me. Now, a rumor to me might be like 9to5macs revealation of the fatty nano. They "had a source" and spread it around. That just turne dout to be legit. Other people "have sources" that turn out to be nonsense.

It has been my understanding that they were two different devices. Well, I can't claim to know everything. I would not put it past apple to have put some thought into a full tablet though.

Would it really be a Newton device though? That is word used to describe it but what does that really mean? A PDA? I know Newton wasn't the actual device but the OS that the Messanger Pads run. Newton might refer simply to the size of the device. It might be a complete misnomier. I don't know but it gives me enough to randomly speculate on a device as such.

The problem with your ideas of what WONT happen, is that they poopoo on my ideas of what I want. Way to rain on my parade with REALITY! :-P

Numbers?

Except that as of right now there's no use for one. When the iPhone SDK comes out, and as the iPhone/iPod Touch platform matures, you have something you could go back to. I'm imagining a version of OmniGraffle that "snaps" sketched shapes and lines into diagrams...

Or Wacom could license the tech and come out with a multi-touch drawing tablet. Finger-painting! Squeezing (ZBrush has never been so much fun)! Smearing! Use a brush with special "hairs" and watch as it's reproduced accurately on screen! Etc., etc. If nothing else it would be a lot of fun.

I don't mean to say that a rumor is always correct! Far from it. But, a rumor purports to be correct.

Speculation has no such contention. It's just people giving their ideas on what they'd like to see.

The only reason why the description Newton-like is being used is for the approximate form factor. The screen is much larger than the iPhones, but much smaller than Irelands 11" model he posted.

What would this supposed device do?

Well, likely everything the iTouch does. but, with a screen with 2.5 times the area and resolution, a lot more as well. The processors would be more powerful, allowing more Maclike programs to be used.

The keyboard would also be much bigger, and easier to use (horizontal, please!).

But, I'm just guessing. If this sees the light of day, its not supposed to be here until spring, at the earliest.

You'll see, and so will I

That could be true. But, I would think that at least one company would show a design concept, at least.

Possibly at Macworld we will be treated to a beta of the SDK. Supposedly, it's been in the hands of some big developers for a while now, like October. If so, perhaps we'll see some beta results from some companies as well. That happened, you might remember when Apple first announced their move to Intel, but well before it actually occurred.


I'm not sure Apple would do that. But other companies are coming out with multitouch products, so there is more than one way to do it. Wacom may not need Apple's software at all.

We sure will buddy.

Ahhh, but some people pass off their speculation AS rumor. I mean, yes they are LIARS but it still becomes rumor, doesn't it?

I wouldn't mind a 7" screen...but I would still want a pen or at LEAST some natural way for me to draw on it. A finger wouldn't work, you agree?

Would this device allow SOME degree of word processing? ie-could I take this out and work on my scripts while I was on the go? COULD I pair a bluetooth keyboard for it for extended typing (I agree that typing on a on screen keyboard for extended periods of time is problem matic).

Truth be told, I could probably get an approximation of the tablet I want with the rumored subnotebook and a 12" Cinque...but that is going to be freaking expensive at the end of the day. And I am not certain if the subnotebook will be a second computer or a companion like I imagine the Newton (and my dream tablet) to be.

But hey, we will see what we see tomorrow!

according to macnn, an iPhone stylus already exists.

http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/08/...stylus.debuts/

My idea for this would be with a 7" diag screen. A lot could be done with that. The resolution could be 720 x 400 or 480, which is plenty.

I would imagine that most anything you would want to do could be done, except for high density processing apps.

I would also want a pen or stylus.

That's great! Why hasn't this been publicized more? I don't read macnn much any more, so I didn't see it.

EXCELLENT...though with the new Wired design, that ultra-portable seems ultra awesome! Of course, it is probably not entirely right...but it sure would be nice.

Here's an article on debunking Macworld rumors.

http://www.computerworld.com/action/...LT_MAC&nlid=62

Nothing's perfect.

Batman is... :-P

I'm not going to reply to that. I just won't!!!

I didn't see it either, which confirms my hunch that it was released ahead of any real demand.

It does confirm my hunch that the multitouch technology is aware of the size and shape of the "touch," which opens up a lot of possibilities.

It would certainly make it much more useful.