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First Look: Apple TV 2.0 and iTunes Movie Rentals (photos, video) - Page 5

post #161 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatsFan83 View Post

Does anyone if you rent iTunes movies that are playable on your iphone/computer, can you stream these to your AppleTV?

It looks like you'll be able to do that, but if the intention is to watch them on your TV, it makes more sense to rent directly via AppleTV because the quality will be higher - the standard def is higher, not to mention HD.
post #162 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

It looks like you'll be able to do that, but if the intention is to watch them on your TV, it makes more sense to rent directly via AppleTV because the quality will be higher - the standard def is higher, not to mention HD.

The keynote implied that at least all movie rentals will be DVD quality. The only current rental I have is 853x405. That is better than DVD quality, is it not?

I don't see iTunes having "near-DVD" quality content and DVD quality content when they are so close in resolution. Wouldn't it make more sense to keep only two files for each movie: DVD quality and HD quality?
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post #163 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The keynote implied that at least all movie rentals will be DVD quality. The only current rental I have is 853x405. That is better than DVD quality, is it not?

I don't see iTunes having "near-DVD" quality content and DVD quality content when they are so close in resolution. Wouldn't it make more sense to keep only two files for each movie: DVD quality and HD quality?

Anything greater than 720 x 480, but less than 1024 x 720 is considered to be "enhanced".
post #164 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The keynote implied that at least all movie rentals will be DVD quality. The only current rental I have is 853x405. That is better than DVD quality, is it not?

I don't see iTunes having "near-DVD" quality content and DVD quality content when they are so close in resolution. Wouldn't it make more sense to keep only two files for each movie: DVD quality and HD quality?

Check out the following website:

http://trac.handbrake.fr/wiki/AnamorphicGuide

Interesting since I thought all the movies for iphones/ipods were maxed at horizontal resolution of 640...The extra resolution is nice, although a boost in bitrate would probably make a more noticeable impact.
post #165 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

It looks like you'll be able to do that, but if the intention is to watch them on your TV, it makes more sense to rent directly via AppleTV because the quality will be higher - the standard def is higher, not to mention HD.

Except like this weekend, I wanted a movie for the train, and want to finish it on my TV. It sounds like the resolution for itunes has been bumped (or is at least stored anamorphic, and then streched horizontally).
post #166 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatsFan83 View Post

Check out the following website:

http://trac.handbrake.fr/wiki/AnamorphicGuide

Interesting since I thought all the movies for iphones/ipods were maxed at horizontal resolution of 640...The extra resolution is nice, although a boost in bitrate would probably make a more noticeable impact.

Like you said, both the iPhone and iPods still state that the max resolution is 640x480 @ 1.5MBps, but the movie does transfer and play on my iPhone. Either the Tech Specs listed the previous quality iTunes video quality as the peak even though it could support higher quality in both the HW and SW, or the new update for the iPhone, released that same day, moved the capabilities in SW higher. Did the current iPods (besides the Touch) get an update, too?

I do wonder how this will affect the longevity of the device. For example, if I could get 4 hours of video from 640x480 on the iPhone can I now only get 3.8 hours from the odd 853x405 resolution video as it will tax the CPU more. Not just from the higher size but the odd sizing too.
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post #167 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The keynote implied that at least all movie rentals will be DVD quality. The only current rental I have is 853x405. That is better than DVD quality, is it not?

I don't see iTunes having "near-DVD" quality content and DVD quality content when they are so close in resolution. Wouldn't it make more sense to keep only two files for each movie: DVD quality and HD quality?

Interesting. My impression was that there would now be three different resolutions:
1. Near-DVD quality, at 640X480 maximum. The standard that Apple has been using.
2. DVD-quality, at 720X480 maximum. This is the new standard definition for AppleTV rentals.
3. HD.

But if you got 853X405, then you're probably right and standard definition really is going to be the same on iTunes and AppleTV. And you're right that it does make a lot more sense to have two types of movies (HD and DVD) rather than three.

Now I'm wondering about the videos already on the store. Is it just the rentals that are using this new format, or are they going to release everything like this, like they did with the jump from 320 to 640.
post #168 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatsFan83 View Post

Except like this weekend, I wanted a movie for the train, and want to finish it on my TV. It sounds like the resolution for itunes has been bumped (or is at least stored anamorphic, and then streched horizontally).

Yeah, it looks like that's right.

But now that raises a question: Why does Apple say you can't move even SD rentals from AppleTV to your computer?
post #169 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Now I'm wondering about the videos already on the store. Is it just the rentals that are using this new format, or are they going to release everything like this, like they did with the jump from 320 to 640.

Me too, but I'm too cheap to buy and rent a movie that was there before Tuesday's announcement and to also buy and rent a movie that appeared after Tuesday's announcement just to see if there are any differences between the encoding.

I doubt it but I'll rhetorically ask anyway: Will new music videos and TV shows be staying at 640x480? If they are new ones are changing, how about the old one too?
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post #170 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Me too, but I'm too cheap to buy and rent a movie that was there before Tuesday's announcement and to also buy and rent a movie that appeared after Tuesday's announcement just to see if there are any differences between the encoding.

I doubt it but I'll rhetorically ask anyway: Will new music videos and TV shows be staying at 640x480? If they are new ones are changing, how about the old one too?

I would guess that Tv shows would be staying at 640- 480.

Movies?

He didn't actually make that clear at the keynote.

I should have measured the movie I rented before I changed it to full width.. I didn't think of that. The next time, I'll do it.
post #171 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I should have measured the movie I rented before I changed it to full width.. I didn't think of that. The next time, I'll do it.

Just right click on the rental and choose Get Info. It will tell you the resolution.
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post #172 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Just right click on the rental and choose Get Info. It will tell you the resolution.

Ah, I didn't look.

So why all the questions then? We can see for ourselves.
post #173 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

So why all the questions then? We can see for ourselves.

I can only answer questions about what I have rented, which has shown that iTunes rentals will provide better quality than before, and better than DVD quality if I understand it correctly. Though it's not quite enough empirical evidence to answer all questions about how Apple is handling all the various possibilities.

— DVD Quality = 720x480 = 345,600px
— "The Lives of Others" = 853x405 = 345,465px

So it's less visual pixels than DVD at a 4:3 ratio but pretty damn close.
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post #174 of 233
I tried syncing some movies I ripped from Handbrake that were similar resolution to the itunes rental (853x405) to my iphone, but it wouldn't sync over. Not sure how it differentiates between the two types of resolutions.

When the rental is opened in quicktime player, it lists this as the resolution:

AAC (protected), Stereo (L R), 44.100 kHz
AVC0 Media, 640 x 356 (853 x 356), Millions

I believe it is stored as 640, but should be played back stretched to 853.
post #175 of 233
..........
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post #176 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatsFan83 View Post

I tried syncing some movies I ripped from Handbrake that were similar resolution to the itunes rental (853x405) to my iphone, but it wouldn't sync over. Not sure how it differentiates between the two types of resolutions.

When the rental is opened in quicktime player, it lists this as the resolution:

AAC (protected), Stereo (L R), 44.100 kHz
AVC0 Media, 640 x 356 (853 x 356), Millions

I believe it is stored as 640, but should be played back stretched to 853.

But what is the Mbps? I think 1.5Mbps is still the maximum.
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post #177 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I can only answer questions about what I have rented, which has shown that iTunes rentals will provide better quality than before, and better than DVD quality if I understand it correctly.. Though not quite enough empirical evidence to answer all questions about how Apple is handling all the various possibilities.

— DVD Quality = 720x480 = 345,600px
— "The Lives of Others" = 853x405 = 345,465px

So it's less visual pixels than DVD at a 4:3 ratio but pretty damn close.

That's true, but if it were on DVD, then it would be about 720 x 340, so it would be more than DVD quality. Unless you got scan and pan.
post #178 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That's true, but if it were on DVD, then it would be about 720 x 340, so it would be more than DVD quality. Unless you got scan and pan.

Your figures don't seem to account for the different stretching that is usually done for widescreen DVDs. A 'scope movie like that would be fill an area of about 720 x 363.

*edit* nevermind for now, maybe I'm getting my math wrong somewhere. I think you might have accounted for it, but I was going from IMDb's 2.35:1 aspect ratio, the stated ratio from the iTunes download is 2.1:1, which seems to account for the difference.
post #179 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feynman View Post

.....the AppleTV would play video_ts files. I would buy one in a heart beat!

I used Visual Hub to convert a video_ts to 'Apple TV' format, and directly compared the two. The resolution is *identical*, and the Apple TV version actually looks a bit nicer because the saturation appears to be boosted a bit. Now Apple TV supports Dolby Digital, the only difference between a video_ts and an Apple TV version is the lack of DVD extras, and the fact the Apple TV version is about 1/3 the file size.
post #180 of 233
Resolution isn't the only consideration either.

All DVDs use interlaced video and there isn't a great way to quantitatively compare that to a non-interlaced video mastered from film. Some people are very susceptible to interlacing artifacts while others will never be able to tell the difference.

There are also the issues of color space and frame rate. It would be interesting to know how apple is producing these files. I doubt an actual DVD is anywhere in the production chain. Or at least I hope not.

I've often wondered the same about iTunes. Audio CDs are much lower fidelity than the original production. It is possible that Apple has been ripping from the original, highest-def source, rather than re-down-sampling from the already down-sampled consumer release.

What I'm getting at is, I suspect that the Apple's rips (should) look and sound better than is possible when ripping from DVDs or CDs.
post #181 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

I've often wondered the same about iTunes. Audio CDs are much lower fidelity than the original production. It is possible that Apple has been ripping from the original, highest-def source, rather than re-down-sampling from the already down-sampled consumer release.

Does that still make a difference when the AAC quality is still well below that of a CD?
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post #182 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Does that still make a difference when the AAC quality is still well below that of a CD?

Definitely. Source quality is of the utmost importance no matter the final compression rate.

Keep in mind CD audio and DVD video is in fact "compressed" already. Re-compressing it to an even lower bit-rate produces lower fidelity results than compressing just a single time from the original source.

The only question is... is the difference perceivable? I suspect that it is unnoticeable to most but obvious to some. (with a good dose of placebo thrown in just to confuse everyone)
post #183 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Resolution isn't the only consideration either.

All DVDs use interlaced video and there isn't a great way to quantitatively compare that to a non-interlaced video mastered from film. Some people are very susceptible to interlacing artifacts while others will never be able to tell the difference.

There are also the issues of color space and frame rate. It would be interesting to know how apple is producing these files. I doubt an actual DVD is anywhere in the production chain. Or at least I hope not.

I've often wondered the same about iTunes. Audio CDs are much lower fidelity than the original production. It is possible that Apple has been ripping from the original, highest-def source, rather than re-down-sampling from the already down-sampled consumer release.

What I'm getting at is, I suspect that the Apple's rips (should) look and sound better than is possible when ripping from DVDs or CDs.

Don't forget that film itself isn't projected the way it is shot.

Film is shot at 24 fps, but projected back at 48 fps with two identical frames presented one after the other to reduce flicker.

Color space has to match the much narrower space of Tv. That's been changing over the years, but not in a standard way. Tv, any older standard, has about 1 million colors possible. HD, in theory, allows for 16.7 million, but I doubt most Tv's can reproduce it, except for a very few models. The HDMI 1.3 spec allows for "deep color". We'll have to see how that works out.

The question of CD quality is argued back and forth. Considering that the mics, mixers, and associated equipment is no better than, or of lower fidelity than the CD itself, it's an interesting argument.

Quality is always better when moving from the original source.

An interesting aside about this. When my company began producing graphics and video for the internet from clients content, we found that content shot on Betacam always looked better than content shot on lesser machines—even when what we had to produce was 320 x 240 with 16 bit color, rather than 24, and high compression rates.

Higher quality original material ALWAYS produces better end quality because it handles the downsampling, and high compression better!
post #184 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Does that still make a difference when the AAC quality is still well below that of a CD?

As far as I know, Apple doesn't rip anything. the content companies do their own ripping.
post #185 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Definitely. Source quality is of the utmost importance no matter the final compression rate.

Keep in mind CD audio and DVD video is in fact "compressed" already. Re-compressing it to an even lower bit-rate produces lower fidelity results than compressing just a single time from the original source.

The only question is... is the difference perceivable? I suspect that it is unnoticeable to most but obvious to some. (with a good dose of placebo thrown in just to confuse everyone)

Cd audio is sampled, not compressed. There is a difference.
post #186 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Cd audio is sampled, not compressed. There is a difference.

And that's what you chose to comment about?
(It seems like you're off on a rebutal/nitpick bender)

But yes, sampling is a form of compression by many people's definitions.
post #187 of 233
Is there a distinct advantage to getting the bigger HD in the AppleTV?
post #188 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Dog View Post

Is there a distinct advantage to getting the bigger HD in the AppleTV?

Yes. You can sync more data from your main computer (potentially your entire iTunes library) and hold more rented movies.

Personally I don't see as necessary. My 802.11n network streams stuff plenty fast. I haven't synced anything to mine.
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post #189 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I just rented another movie. My clock is correct and I'm getting a 5103 error. The didn't fix it they actually broke it. I'm not the only one. Anyone who has apparently altered their clock (unsure of timeframe) will be able to download the rental but not play it. This is very discouraging and sheds a darkness over the rentals. There is no resolution on Apple's site yet. I'll call tomorrow to find a solution.

DO NOT ADJUST YOUR CLOCK TO TEST THIS OUT DO NOT ADJUST YOUR CLOCK TO TEST THIS OUT DO NOT ADJUST YOUR CLOCK TO TEST THIS OUT DO NOT ADJUST YOUR CLOCK TO TEST THIS OUT DO NOT ADJUST YOUR CLOCK TO TEST THIS OUT DO NOT ADJUST YOUR CLOCK TO TEST THIS OUT DO NOT ADJUST YOUR CLOCK TO TEST THIS OUT DO NOT ADJUST YOUR CLOCK TO TEST THIS OUT DO NOT ADJUST YOUR CLOCK TO TEST THIS OUT

I reported my issue via iTunes Store on Sunday. I got an email from Apple's iTunes support staff via email at 2pm PST. They said they'd look into it and get back to me. They haven't yet but the video is now working fine. One unfortunate thing is that I have lost all the day it was locked out for. i assumed they'd credit me back a few days from the server, though I don't know if that is possible.
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post #190 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

And that's what you chose to comment about?
(It seems like you're off on a rebutal/nitpick bender)

But yes, sampling is a form of compression by many people's definitions.

Sigh!

No, it's not nitpicking, and no, sampling is not compression, even if a few people want to think so.
post #191 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I reported my issue via iTunes Store on Sunday. I got an email from Apple's iTunes support staff via email at 2pm PST. They said they'd look into it and get back to me. They haven't yet but the video is now working fine. One unfortunate thing is that I have lost all the day it was locked out for. i assumed they'd credit me back a few days from the server, though I don't know if that is possible.


Ho ho. You know better than that.

You actually told Apple that you tried to get around their time limiting DRM? And then you asked for credit?

You you!

Wow!!!

That was brave of you. I would have taken my tail between my legs and slunk off into the dark!
post #192 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Ho ho. You know better than that.

You actually told Apple that you tried to get around their time limiting DRM? And then you asked for credit?

You you!

Wow!!!

That was brave of you. I would have taken my tail between my legs and slunk off into the dark!

I told them i had a kernel panic. I had read a couple reports of rentals giving the same error after that happening.

Either way, I didn't fear the reputations of altering my own clock time outside of not getting a response at all from iTunes support.
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post #193 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I told them i had a kernel panic. I had read a couple reports of rentals giving the same error after that happening.

Either way, I didn't fear the reputations of altering my own clock time outside of not getting a response at all from iTunes support.

Aw, now you gone and spoiled it!

But, you have now given Apple a fruitless line of testing to go down, so that's something.
post #194 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Aw, now you gone and spoiled it!

But, you have now given Apple a fruitless line of testing to go down, so that's something.

I do want so desperately to test it again but I'll wait until 10.5.2 to arrive. I just can't leave well enough alone. They have to be working on a solution to the clock thing that doesn't alter the rental time or lock out rentals.

My solution would be:

If time has changed iTunes to verify correct time on iTunes servers.
If not internet connection is found to iTunes Servers dialogue box appears.
Once time is verified iTunes checks to see if rental is still valid
If valid, rental starts playing.

Obviously that is overly simplified and I'm sure there are better ways but that is surely better than the error I had for 48 hours.
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post #195 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Yes. You can sync more data from your main computer (potentially your entire iTunes library) and hold more rented movies.

Personally I don't see as necessary. My 802.11n network streams stuff plenty fast. I haven't synced anything to mine.

I went for the larger HDD since I have three 802.11g devices on my 802.11n network, so I was worried about having to stream too much video. My tv finally arrives tomorrow. I think the FedEx truck broke down for five days.
post #196 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Sigh!

No, it's not nitpicking, and no, sampling is not compression, even if a few people want to think so.

Any other definitions you want us to scratch out of the dictionary while you're at it?
post #197 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Any other definitions you want us to scratch out of the dictionary while you're at it?

I think he has a point on that one, even if it is a nitpick. I haven't found any articles on digital sampling that call it compression.
post #198 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Any other definitions you want us to scratch out of the dictionary while you're at it?

I'm just trying to be accurate.
post #199 of 233
And completely missing the point by doing so...

In this instance, we were talking about whether iTS rips are made from consumer media or from the original source. Compression is a good loose term to describe the conversion of data in order to use less storage. You're right that there can be a distinction between it and sampling. But in this instance, when we're talking about both sampling and compression of the same file with no need to distinguish between the two. It made sense to use a term that can encompass both.

How about a car analogy?
I drove my "car" to work today. But feel free to correct me because it is actually an "SUV".

Words can have multiple meanings and using the more "accurate" definition, as you put it, isn't always the most communicative thing to do. If someone is speaking broadly, it makes more sense to use a term with a broad definition or connotation. Using the more specific term can actually be less accurate.

Your quest to have everyone use your single definition of "compression" may have noble intentions, but it certainly isn't making this a more informative thread. It has done exactly the opposite by taking us off on a useless tangent, thereby defeating the purpose of your original nitpick, which I assume was to educate.

Back to my original point...

Does anyone know how the iTS rips are produced? I've seen a few places where people mention that their personal DVD rips look worse than the Apple equivalents. Has anyone else noticed this to be the case?
post #200 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

And completely missing the point by doing so...

In this instance, we were talking about whether iTS rips are made from consumer media or from the original source. Compression is a good loose term to describe the conversion of data in order to use less storage. You're right that there can be a distinction between it and sampling. But in this instance, when we're talking about both sampling and compression of the same file with no need to distinguish between the two. It made sense to use a term that can encompass both.

How about a car analogy?
I drove my "car" to work today. But feel free to correct me because it is actually an "SUV".

Words can have multiple meanings and using the more "accurate" definition, as you put it, isn't always the most communicative thing to do. If someone is speaking broadly, it makes more sense to use a term with a broad definition or connotation. Using the more specific term can actually be less accurate.

Your quest to have everyone use your single definition of "compression" may have noble intentions, but it certainly isn't making this a more informative thread. It has done exactly the opposite by taking us off on a useless tangent, thereby defeating the purpose of your original nitpick, which I assume was to educate.

Back to my original point...

Does anyone know how the iTS rips are produced? I've seen a few places where people mention that their personal DVD rips look worse than the Apple equivalents. Has anyone else noticed this to be the case?

Not missing the point at all.

What you're doing with your own definition is leading people to think that something is being done, when it isn't. this isn't MY definition. It is THE definition.

Agreeing on terminology is the most important thing one must do before having a discussion involving that terminology. People simply can't define words any way they like.

Sampling leaves everything intact below half the sample frequency. Lossy compression throws away increasing amounts of that data the more the date is compressed. CD is not compressed, MP3, AAC, and other compression schemes throw away much of that data.

If you want to argue that sampling throws away data above the sample rate, then you would be correct.
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