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First Look: Apple TV 2.0 and iTunes Movie Rentals (photos, video) - Page 3

post #81 of 233
1/16/08 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I happen to like disks, both movie and music, but if those choices will be taken away over time, and they will, we will have no choice.

I am sure the studios would be happy to take away discs as it saves them money because the consumer pays for the delivery and the storage. More money to them. But as long as consumers buy discs, the studios will continue to sell them. Besides, why can't downloads and disc coexist? Downloads for those with the complex hard disk systems, disc for the more simple viewers.
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post #82 of 233
1/16/08 at 12:03pm
The original had a selection for 480i in the setup. Can someone confirm at Macworld that the new AppleTV can do 480i as well. I really would like to use it on a Standard Def TV.

Thank you,

James
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post #83 of 233
1/16/08 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

And HD movies can only be rented and only rented via the AppleTV. It is my opinion this has to do with the iPods inability to play HD content.

Doesn't seem to me that 'HD' on a device as small as an iPhone makes much sense.
I've owned 'HD' sets under 30" and they're largely a waste of time.
Given the <40" from > 10' guideline, I don't see the value.
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post #84 of 233
1/16/08 at 12:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You have absolutely no common sense. Yes, I pay for media for my AppleTV, just as people pay for media for DVD players, and jsut like people paid for media for their VHS players. I also pay to go to the movies and then buy a large popcorn and soda because I can.

solipsism...
Don't waste time arguing with a troll. Some people's posts can always be summed up as "I hate Steve Jobs", and the goal is baiting, not discourse.
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post #85 of 233
1/16/08 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

Doesn't seem to me that 'HD' on a device as small as an iPhone makes much sense.
I've owned 'HD' sets under 30" and they're largely a waste of time.
Given the <40" from > 10' guideline, I don't see the value.

The ONLY reason I can imagine that people might want to have HD material on their iPod is if they're using it as a player to view the material via component on a HDTV that doesn't have an aTV. For instance at the cottage or a friends place. I took my iPod with several movies on a vacation recently to play on the hotel TV. But if the component out on all iPods/iPhone don't allow for HD out, then there's no point at all.
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post #86 of 233
1/16/08 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pt123 View Post

I am sure the studios would be happy to take away discs as it saves them money because the consumer pays for the delivery and the storage. More money to them. But as long as consumers buy discs, the studios will continue to sell them. Besides, why can't downloads and disc coexist? Downloads for those with the complex hard disk systems, disc for the more simple viewers.

The problem is that consumers are buying less and less disks all the time. CD sales were down an astounding 23% this holiday season.

DVD's are down too.

The trend is clear. The consumer is speaking, and they are saying that they are liking disks less and less.

One reason is piracy. Even those who pirate like to deny it, it's true. But the other reasons are that there are other areas of entertainment available.

Cable, satellite, the internet, etc, are all soaking up people's time and money.

Downloadable music is moving up the sales charts while the CD is moving down.

The same thing is beginning to happen to movies.

It isn't the studios who are pushing this on us, they've been resisting it, but it's happening nevertheless.

The fact that Apple is doing this, and that we're talking about it is proof enough of the consumer interest.

Once people talk about the price, and other details of time and quality, you know that it's here to stay.

People are NOT saying, no, no I'll never do this. They are wondering how much it is and whether they will like what they get.

Ten years from now, people will have forgotten this entire argument.
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post #87 of 233
1/16/08 at 1:45pm
Well, I'm willing to bet that Apple was kinda in a tough spot. First, I think Apple recognized that it absolutely had to get all (or most) of the major studios onboard. In order to do that and have a consistent pricing scheme Apple pretty much ended up with what's been going in industry ie VOD. Second, Apple really didn't have an ace in the hole sort of speak, again, this is a market already has some history (VOD), Apple is just delivering the content through it's established iTMS and a large user base in a slightly different way. The 24-hour rental thing is standard, I had not seen the 30 day thing yet. I really thing Apple probably started with you rent it for a longer period of time, like 30 days or a week, but just couldn't pitch it. Apple has already made some waves with Universal (don't know how much the different subgroups influence each other) so I think all Apple could do here was give and give. As far as ripping dvds, I really don't think the AppleTV is the best device to use here. I don't really get way some folks are having a major issue with this, if you rip your DVDs, use your mac, which has way more horse-power and if you want to watch a DVD, well, they make this thing now called a D-V-D player and a Blu-Ray player (sorry, couldn't resist). I also think the movie industry is weary of the word "rip" after seeing the music industry decline. I've been ripping my DVDs in order to view them later on a computer running iTunes and Front Row, but I'm starting to question if it's worth the time and (wow) hard drive space, even a compressed down to acceptable quality a movie is 2GB, and then back it up, it's a lot of space. And you know what, seriously, I just don't re watch movies often enough to justify it. For me at least, the AppleTV movie rental service is ideal.
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post #88 of 233
1/16/08 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11thIndian View Post

The ONLY reason I can imagine that people might want to have HD material on their iPod is if they're using it as a player to view the material via component on a HDTV that doesn't have an aTV. For instance at the cottage or a friends place. I took my iPod with several movies on a vacation recently to play on the hotel TV. But if the component out on all iPods/iPhone don't allow for HD out, then there's no point at all.


I'm not sure the processing power available on any iPod, except perhaps, for the iTouch, is powerful enough for HD. And I'm not even so sanguine about the iTouch.

Remember the questions as to whether the early Mini's could play HD, even 720p? The first, single core, model couldn't.

We might see it in another generation or two. Maybe in 2009 with Intel's 32nm incarnation of their new platform.
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post #89 of 233
1/16/08 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaioslider View Post

Well, I'm willing to bet that Apple was kinda in a tough spot. First, I think Apple recognized that it absolutely had to get all (or most) of the major studios onboard. In order to do that and have a consistent pricing scheme Apple pretty much ended up with what's been going in industry ie VOD. Second, Apple really didn't have an ace in the hole sort of speak, again, this is a market already has some history (VOD), Apple is just delivering the content through it's established iTMS and a large user base in a slightly different way. The 24-hour rental thing is standard, I had not seen the 30 day thing yet. I really thing Apple probably started with you rent it for a longer period of time, like 30 days or a week, but just couldn't pitch it. Apple has already made some waves with Universal (don't know how much the different subgroups influence each other) so I think all Apple could do here was give and give. As far as ripping dvds, I really don't think the AppleTV is the best device to use here. I don't really get way some folks are having a major issue with this, if you rip your DVDs, use your mac, which has way more horse-power and if you want to watch a DVD, well, they make this thing now called a D-V-D player and a Blu-Ray player (sorry, couldn't resist). I also think the movie industry is weary of the word "rip" after seeing the music industry decline. I've been ripping my DVDs in order to view them later on a computer running iTunes and Front Row, but I'm starting to question if it's worth the time and (wow) hard drive space, even a compressed down to acceptable quality a movie is 2GB, and then back it up, it's a lot of space. And you know what, seriously, I just don't re watch movies often enough to justify it. For me at least, the AppleTV movie rental service is ideal.

I agree completely.
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post #90 of 233
1/16/08 at 1:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbilgihan View Post

The original had a selection for 480i in the setup. Can someone confirm at Macworld that the new AppleTV can do 480i as well. I really would like to use it on a Standard Def TV.

AppleTV has Component and HDMI ports on the device. All HDTVs will support one or both of these, as well as many SDTVs. If your SDTV has either of these inputs then your good.

PS: It's 480p, not 'i'.
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post #91 of 233
1/16/08 at 2:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

It's a neat concept, and those are good reasons for doing it, but 99.9% of people aren't willing to spend days on end ripping their collection, so doubling the size and cost of the Apple TV to include a disc drive would be a poor choice on Apple's part. Moreover, Apple could kiss their studio support goodbye if they provided a free means of bypassing DVD copyright protection, not to mention a hefty lawsuit. Besides, the Apple TV only has a 40 or 160GB hard drive with no means of adding more storage so it's not like there's anywhere to put the movies you can't rip anyhow. By the time Apple included a Blu-Ray drive, 1TB of storage, and everything else that's already in the Apple TV, you'd be talking about a niche product that's more expensive than most people in that niche are even willing to spend. They'd say, "why would I spend $xxxx on a set top box when I could buy a home theatre pc that does all that and more for $xxx?".

Or they could've just put in a slot loading DVD for playback only. Then we wouldn't have to keep a DVD player under the TV. And to the dude who asked why people want DVD playback when they are going away soon. I have 100+ DVDs NOW that I would like to play on my home theater. It would be nice to ditch everything under my TV except for my receiver and ATV. But, I have to keep my DVD player.
On a side note, why hasn't someone made an external DVD drive that runs off the usb port? Stackable, in the same footprint, if you want one, spend the money, all those people who are in this fantasy digital world can continue to do without one.
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post #92 of 233
1/16/08 at 2:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicnac View Post

Or they could've just put in a slot loading DVD for playback only. Then we wouldn't have to keep a DVD player under the TV. And to the dude who asked why people want DVD playback when they are going away soon. I have 100+ DVDs NOW that I would like to play on my home theater. It would be nice to ditch everything under my TV except for my receiver and ATV. But, I have to keep my DVD player.
On a side note, why hasn't someone made an external DVD drive that runs off the usb port? Stackable, in the same footprint, if you want one, spend the money, all those people who are in this fantasy digital world can continue to do without one.

As far as I know, there have been such drives, but I believe they need USB 2 for DVD.

There hasn't yet been a big enough market for the ATv for a third party to make such a device specifically for it. But, if it now takes off, there will be.
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post #93 of 233
1/16/08 at 3:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

AppleTV has Component and HDMI ports on the device. All HDTVs will support one or both of these, as well as many SDTVs. If your SDTV has either of these inputs then your good.

PS: It's 480p, not 'i'.

AppleTV has both, 480i and 480p.
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post #94 of 233
1/16/08 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

Doesn't seem to me that 'HD' on a device as small as an iPhone makes much sense.

I think the point is simply compatibility. Obviously you wouldn't rent the HD version to watch on an iPod. But if you rented it and watched it on your HDTV, it would be nice to be able to copy it over to your iPod and watch it again the next morning on the train going to work.

It would also be nice if the iPods could output hdtv signal to an hdtv.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The problem is that consumers are buying less and less disks all the time. CD sales were down an astounding 23% this holiday season.

DVD's are down too.

You make some good points but you miss a major factor in DVD sales. There are new competing HD formats in the midst of a format war. People don't want to buy DVDs when they know the format's days are numbered. And people don't want to buy hddvd OR bluray until there's a clear winner. In the meantime, people just stop (or slow) buying dvds at all. Once there's a clear winner, I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see bluray sales ramp up to where DVD sales were.

Video games are the same way - when a new generation of consoles come out, sales tail WAY off...but once the new platforms get a foothold, sales come back stronger than ever.
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post #95 of 233
1/16/08 at 6:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's very possible that at some point in the future, you won't "own" any content, but like a concert, every time you want to hear or see it, you will have to pay a fee.

That's the way things are going.

If the studios think revenue is down now, they haven't seen anything yet if they try that business model.
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post #96 of 233
1/16/08 at 6:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

If the studios think revenue is down now, they haven't seen anything yet if they try that business model.

Quite so. But I really doubt the studio would push for this. If that's what they wanted, they could have done it 30 years ago by not releasing movies on VHS to retail, but instead only to rental stores like blockbuster. But the studios keep selling movies-to-own, and keep putting them on newer and better formats. And it makes them billions of dollars.
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post #97 of 233
1/16/08 at 7:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post


You make some good points but you miss a major factor in DVD sales. There are new competing HD formats in the midst of a format war. People don't want to buy DVDs when they know the format's days are numbered. And people don't want to buy hddvd OR bluray until there's a clear winner. In the meantime, people just stop (or slow) buying dvds at all. Once there's a clear winner, I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see bluray sales ramp up to where DVD sales were.

Video games are the same way - when a new generation of consoles come out, sales tail WAY off...but once the new platforms get a foothold, sales come back stronger than ever.

I'm not sure how much that's affecting it. It likely has some effect.

But, even those formats are doomed in the long run.

As far as consoles go, the PS2 was still the leading console until sometime last year, and it still sells very well.

That's because it's cheaper and plays far more games.

BD and HD DVD movies cost about $30, too much for many, if not most, people. that price will have to come down.
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post #98 of 233
1/16/08 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Downloadable music is moving up the sales charts while the CD is moving down.

The same thing is beginning to happen to movies.

Even if downloads catch up with physical discs, there will still be enough people buying discs. The studios are not going to walk away from the money.
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post #99 of 233
1/16/08 at 7:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

If the studios think revenue is down now, they haven't seen anything yet if they try that business model.

Don't think that. It's easy to say, but people want their content.

It's very interesting to note that pay forplay is a very old idea.

Edward Bellemy wrote a very popular book back in 1889, I think it was (I don't have my copy in front of me).

In it, he did a Rip Van Winkle. He fell asleep in 1889, and woke in 1999. I won't bothe with the premise, but some things in the book are very interesting.

The one that interests us it the method of delivery of music.

Back then, the telephone was just getting started, and Edison hadn't yet made news with his cylinders.

Bellemy thought that in the future music would be delivered to every home via the telephone line. How? well with no recordings, he thought that there would be many orchestras and bands playing 24 hours a day. you would pick the music you wanted, and voilá, the music would come through the phone line (at better quality than calls). You would pay for what you listened to.

See, nothing new!

I can see a time when no one will "own" any content, but will pay a small amount when needed.

I do think that the payments will be far smaller for many things then we see today. But, that's in the future.
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post #100 of 233
1/16/08 at 7:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pt123 View Post

Even if downloads catch up with physical discs, there will still be enough people buying discs. The studios are not going to walk away from the money.

Eventually, they will. this is one area in which I agree with Gates. HD will be the last physical formats, and they won't last forever.

You know, back in the real old days, minstrals were free. You listened, and if you wanted to, you paid a bit.

When concerts came about where people were REQUIRED to pay, they said that it would never work, because you could just listen to musicians on the street. But they were wrong.

Same thing here. Downloads will become a fact of life, and people won't see anything unusual in it.

This current generation will be the last to have physical media to buy.
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post #101 of 233
1/16/08 at 8:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Eventually, they will. this is one area in which I agree with Gates. HD will be the last physical formats, and they won't last forever.

It's funny how the people are saying this are the people that want to make money off downloads.
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post #102 of 233
1/16/08 at 8:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pt123 View Post

It's funny how the people are saying this are the people that want to make money off downloads.

It's just a natural progression.

Look to your history. You can see where things are headed.
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post #103 of 233
1/16/08 at 8:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicnac View Post

Or they could've just put in a slot loading DVD for playback only. Then we wouldn't have to keep a DVD player under the TV. And to the dude who asked why people want DVD playback when they are going away soon. I have 100+ DVDs NOW that I would like to play on my home theater. It would be nice to ditch everything under my TV except for my receiver and ATV. But, I have to keep my DVD player.
On a side note, why hasn't someone made an external DVD drive that runs off the usb port? Stackable, in the same footprint, if you want one, spend the money, all those people who are in this fantasy digital world can continue to do without one.

Even if they put a DVD player in the Apple TV, they most likely wouldn't give it a dedicated upscaling chip so the quality would pale in comparison to a set top upconverting player, or a Blu-Ray or HD DVD player (which all have good to great upconverting chips). With 100 standard-definition DVDs, you wouldn't want to play them on your HDTV without an upconverter.
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post #104 of 233
1/16/08 at 8:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pt123 View Post

It's funny how the people are saying this are the people that want to make money off downloads.

I don't think it's only "those" people. Really. I'll stick with physical discs as long as I reasonably can, but eventually it's going to be media independent, it's going to be a downloaded file on whatever drive or card or disc. In the long term, it's almost inevitable except for the AVphiles like the kind that still plays with vinyl. The same way that some people don't touch CDs anymore for their music, it's eventually going to happen with movies too. I think it takes someone in denial to not understand that.
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post #105 of 233
1/16/08 at 9:51pm
Whatever happened to this rumored "Triple Play" feature, where one HD file would play back on your Mac or PC, your tv, and your current generation iPod? As it is now, I have to subscribe to two versions of podcasts, HD for my tv, and SD for my iPod that I hook to the HDTV in my kitchen.
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post #106 of 233
1/17/08 at 3:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galley View Post

Whatever happened to this rumored "Triple Play" feature, where one HD file would play back on your Mac or PC, your tv, and your current generation iPod? As it is now, I have to subscribe to two versions of podcasts, HD for my tv, and SD for my iPod that I hook to the HDTV in my kitchen.

You can, but only with SD media. HD media can only be played on the AppleTV because iDevices can't handle them. Sure, your iTunes capacble computer could handle them but people would be baffled and annoyed that the HD movie they rented won't copy to their iPod, so the best solution to offer HD, which is best viewed on a HDTV, is only make rentable and viewable on the AppleTV. Everything else can be passed around like a cheap whore.
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post #107 of 233
1/17/08 at 4:05am
My current AppleTV is all nicely hacked up - so that I can play HD shows from a network share.
I would have bought a Slingcatcher but they don't exist.

My guess is that any upgrade to "AppleTV take 2" is going lock down the box. No more SSH, no more XVID
:-(

C.
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post #108 of 233
1/17/08 at 7:47am
Come on everyone.. you are asking for too much!! You used to scream about HD for Apple TV and now you have it! You have to understand that Apple need others support to do some of the things you want.

Streaming TV and HD TV shows seem beautiful. But Apple need the TV networks support to provide these two and we all know the problems they are facing in that area.

Just enjoy the new features for now and be patient.
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post #109 of 233
1/17/08 at 9:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galley View Post

Whatever happened to this rumored "Triple Play" feature, where one HD file would play back on your Mac or PC, your tv, and your current generation iPod? As it is now, I have to subscribe to two versions of podcasts, HD for my tv, and SD for my iPod that I hook to the HDTV in my kitchen.

Since it looks like the iPod hardware can't handle HD files, I'm not sure who came up with that rumor.
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post #110 of 233
1/17/08 at 9:31am
It has to be remembered that this is version 1.0 of the rental service. Don't expect everything at once. Some of the limitations are political, and they must be resolved over time, once the market is better defined.

The other is technological. This service, as do the others out there, uses H.264, which as we all must know by now, needs more horsepower to get decoded than good ol' MPEG 2.

Because of that, small weak devices simply can't decode HD files. That's too bad, but it's a fact. Another generation or two of ULV mobile processors (perhaps the new Intel platform) should be able to take care of that. Be patient.
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post #111 of 233
1/17/08 at 9:47am
From using the advanced search in iTunes, it looks like so far there are about 280 movies available for rent. There also seem to be a decent number that are for sale but not available for rent at this point.

So is there any confirmation on which iPods can play back rented movies? The store just says iPod, which implies any of the video models, but I've seen reports of people finding out that it doesn't work on 5G models. Is this documented anywhere?
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post #112 of 233
1/17/08 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aresee View Post

AppleTV has both, 480i and 480p.

True, but at the wrong aspect ratio.
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post #113 of 233
1/17/08 at 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

So is there any confirmation on which iPods can play back rented movies? The store just says iPod, which implies any of the video models, but I've seen reports of people finding out that it doesn't work on 5G models. Is this documented anywhere?

Rentals only work on the current generation iPod Classic, iPod nano, iPod Touch, and iPhone.
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post #114 of 233
1/17/08 at 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

Rentals only work on the current generation iPod Classic, iPod nano, iPod Touch, and iPhone.

I found it on their FAQ page, but their main iTunes rental page just says that it works on iPods. They really should clarify that, I was planning on trying out a rental but not an option with my 5.5.

Too bad for customers and apple on this one, they could rent more movies if they supported all video ipods. My guess is that they couldn't get the firmware that supports this DRM working on the older iPods.

And looking through the rental selection, there are a LOT in fullscreen format instead of widescreen - what's up with that? For me, pan 'n scan is a dealbreaker.
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post #115 of 233
1/17/08 at 7:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

And looking through the rental selection, there are a LOT in fullscreen format instead of widescreen - what's up with that? For me, pan 'n scan is a dealbreaker.

Really? That's lame. Won't effect me though as I'll only be renting on the Apple TV in HD.
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post #116 of 233
1/17/08 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

Really? That's lame. Won't effect me though as I'll only be renting on the Apple TV in HD.

I've rented 4 movies thus far but have only started two of them.
Blades of Glory (2007) Widescreen
Raising Arizona (1989) Widescreen
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post #117 of 233
1/17/08 at 8:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I've rented 4 movies thus far but have only started two of them.
Blades of Glory (2007) Widescreen
Raising Arizona (1989) Widescreen

I rented Ice Age. We bought the second one The Meltdown, and it was a riot. I haven't watched it yet either. It is widescreen.
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post #118 of 233
1/17/08 at 10:19pm
I know the older/previous AppleTV's will be upgraded with the coming software update but is there any difference in the "hardware" between the older AppleTV's and the new ones? I thought Steve (or someone) said the "hardware" was also being updated?
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post #119 of 233
1/18/08 at 6:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sak View Post

I know the older/previous AppleTV's will be upgraded with the coming software update but is there any difference in the "hardware" between the older AppleTV's and the new ones? I thought Steve (or someone) said the "hardware" was also being updated?

During the keynote Jobs referred to is as "AppleTV Take 2". He seemed to imply that the hardware is being updated along with the software but when all was said and done it is a free software update for all AppleTV users and a major price drop for all AppleTVs being sold.
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post #120 of 233
1/18/08 at 7:52am
I don't remember any implication that the hardware was changing.
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