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NVIDIA readying GeForce 8800 GT upgrade for earlier Mac Pros - Page 2

post #41 of 124
1/20/08 at 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

This is funny. Look at what my google search turned up.

http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

HAHA You're famous.
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post #42 of 124
1/20/08 at 12:59pm
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Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

HAHA You're famous.

Damn right baby.

After that: Look at this.

This is where I saw it, but look at the google search first. I was like holly shit!

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...threadid=66134
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post #43 of 124
1/20/08 at 1:07pm
I haven't seen sunil in quite a long time, kind of a bummer.
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post #44 of 124
1/20/08 at 1:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

Your probably right, but being that these cards are for Apple only, Apple may have opted for the 8 pin connector when having them built. I've read that the problem is that the new Mac Pro's are using UEFI 2.01, and the old ones are using UEFI 1.2 in which the new Mac Pro's have EFI64, and the old ones have EFI32.

I don't see Apple's OEM designing a new PCB for one low-volume graphics card buyer.

Anyway, the power connector issue is a moot point. You can plug a six-pin cable into a card with an eight-pin plug, it will work.
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post #45 of 124
1/20/08 at 1:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

Damn right baby.

After that: Look at this.

This is where I saw it, but look at the google search first. I was like holly shit!

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...threadid=66134

It doesn't matter, you're asking for apple to support SLI in OSX, which will never happen with apple using intel chipsets. Asking apple for this is like asking apple to get a nice big lawsuit from nVidia, it wont happen.

Maybe one day it will happen through a lot of hacking.
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post #46 of 124
1/20/08 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

Please ask Apple to enable SLI in it's drivers, and sell an optional SLI bridge with the 8800 GT upgrade kit. Even if your not interested in SLI' it's important that Mac users have the same benefits that PC users have available to them.
If Apple sees that graphics are important to us there is also a chance of better graphics options in more machines than just the Mac Pro in the future.

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macpro.html

It has to be implemented in the chipset. Without that support, drivers won't help. I don't know exactly what's in the Intel chipset Apple uses.
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post #47 of 124
1/20/08 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by french macuser View Post

PC 8800GTs work on old Mac Pros under bootcamp.

If that's true, then there is something in Apple's drivers, either in the OS, or the card driver itself, that is not allowing it to work under OS X.

It proves the compatibility I was talking about.

If it's just the software, then Apple can fix it. Considering that Apple can fix it, the question becomes,why didn't they announce that, rather than simply stating that it wouldn't work, which gave it the feeling of finality?
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post #48 of 124
1/20/08 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

#1 I didn't argue about what the standard required anywhere. I don't know where you get this crap.

I got it from the "crap" you wrote, which I quoted.

Quote:
And #2 I didn't say I know if it's every board, but there is only two boards in the last Mac Pro's AFAIK. The ones that have 3GHz Quad cores. and the ones that have Dual cores. What I do know is Apple is now put up a compatibility post saying that the upgrade kit requires Mac Pro's that have PCI-E 2.0. http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...SLID?find=8800 That was it. No need to go all freakshow about it and start making shit up.

You first said very definitively, that it couldn't possibly work, because there were 8 power connectors on the new ones, and 6 on the old board. You were very definitive about that. We have it here in writing.

Why are you angry? I didn't make up what you said.

You only mentioned different boards when it was showed, not only by me, that what you were saying about backwards compatibility was wrong. You used that as your fallback position as it was shown that a few older boards weren't compatible, though bad design, or lack of interest at the time.


I speculated about the mobo, because at the time we had no info that the card worked on older machines at all, until "French Macuser" pointed out that it does indeed work in the old machines, but only under Bootcamp. I find it amusing that a board will work under Windows on a Mac, but not under the Mac's own OS. Show one thing I made up.

I'm not really interested in continuing this. You are.

We can end it right here, unless you want to continue it. If you do, don't blame me.
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post #49 of 124
1/20/08 at 1:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647 View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think adding SLI is as easy as making drivers and adding a bridge between the cards. You need the Northbridge to support it don't you? This is why you can NOT get SLI support on Intel Chipsets yet. Only nvidia chipsets. And why a lot of the Intel chipsets only have Crossfire. Am I missing something? Don't the cards still need to communicate through the Northbridge with SLI? I know that Crossfire is a little different. If it was that possible to add SLI, I believe a lot more people would be doing it on Crossfire boards.

Correct.
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post #50 of 124
1/20/08 at 1:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Correct.

As was pointed out earlier. That's not entirely true. Nvidia did release the Forceware driver that worked around the Northbridge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schut View Post

It doesn't matter, you're asking for apple to support SLI in OSX, which will never happen with apple using intel chipsets. Asking apple for this is like asking apple to get a nice big lawsuit from nVidia, it wont happen.

Maybe one day it will happen through a lot of hacking.

Apple has a good relationship with Nvidia. Apple could ask. What would it hurt? They just need the source code for the ForceWare 85.96 drivers and the modification, and compile it for Leopard. End of story. Then we'd have damn near Platform parity with PC's in graphics.
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post #51 of 124
1/20/08 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647 View Post

Can you send a link about this? Everything I've read about SLI is the cards have to communicate through an nvidia northbridge, which the Mac Pros do not have.

The first thing I read on requirements is SLI Motherboard. I don't see how drivers can make up for a hardware loss in configuration...

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2284&p=3

Don't bother pasting this thread. These guys don't know what they are talking about
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....2359&tstart=50

This is off of wikipedia:



So someone is seriously mistaken here as the Mac Pro motherboard DOES NOT have those chipsets.

Correct.
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post #52 of 124
1/20/08 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It has to be implemented in the chipset. Without that support, drivers won't help. I don't know exactly what's in the Intel chipset Apple uses.

I believe it supports Crossfire. You could run dual Radeon 3870's... in Windows.
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post #53 of 124
1/20/08 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Correct.

No that's not correct. Start reading the information provided in the links in the posts.
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post #54 of 124
1/20/08 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

As was pointed out earlier. That's not entirely true. Nvidia did release the Forceware driver that worked around the Northbridge.

I thought the requirement was about getting people to buy boards with nVidia chipsets or to get board makers to pay money to nVidia for SLI capability, as in, it was an artificial software/driver restriction, not a technological one.

Quote:
Apple has a good relationship with Nvidia. Apple could ask. What would it hurt? They just need the source code for the ForceWare 85.96 drivers and the modification, and compile it for Leopard. End of story. Then we'd have damn near Platform parity with PC's in graphics.

It would be nice, but the different OSs go about their business in different ways, I don't think it's that easy of a task. I would think that it would have to be done eventually anyway, that makes the delay seem silly.
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post #55 of 124
1/20/08 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

As was pointed out earlier. That's not entirely true. Nvidia did release the Forceware driver that worked around the Northbridge.

Do you have proof that it worked, or worked in a useful manner?

I can see a very heavy hack working, but it won't work properly, and performance will suck real bad.

That's always what happens when software is used to do something that should be done in hardware, and particularly when it must work around chipsets that can't do anything like it.

Quote:
Apple has a good relationship with Nvidia. Apple could ask. What would it hurt? They just need the source code for the ForceWare 85.96 drivers and the modification, and compile it for Leopard. End of story. Then we'd have damn near Platform parity with PC's in graphics.

Apple has had good relationships with ATI as well, but we don't have Crossfire, which some Intel chipsets DO support.
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post #56 of 124
1/20/08 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

I believe it supports Crossfire. You could run dual Radeon 3870's... in Windows.

Do you know this, or are you just guessing?
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post #57 of 124
1/20/08 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

No that's not correct. Start reading the information provided in the links in the posts.

I guess we have to define what the word "works" means.

Assuming that there were hacks that allowed two cards to work in an SLI configuration, what would it have to do to be considered to be "working"?

Would it just have to run, but so poorly that it was essentially unusable?

Would that qualify?

Or would it have to run so that it gave a significant performance enhancement over one card?

I find it to be very amusing that the PC industry, which has 99% of the demand for graphics cards these days, can't get SLI to work on machines without the correct chipsets. And Crossfire can't be gotten to work on machines without the proper chipsets for that, but there is a claim that SLI will work on a Mac Pro which doesn't use Nvidia chipsets.

What possible advantage could Nvidia have for putting so much work into a project that would gain them nothing, yet, not put that same amount of effort into the PC world, where they could sell a lot more chips if successful?

And if this were true, with all the interest, why wasn't it common knowledge, blasted across all the rumors sites, as well as the gamers sites, and other tech sites?
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post #58 of 124
1/20/08 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Do you have proof that it worked, or worked in a useful manner?

Yes it was fully supported, but Nvidia decided to update the driver because they decided they wanted full control over SLI, so now it's locked out of anything that isn't an Nvidia chipset.

I think this was the first mod that worked after they disabled it, and I think it's the same one that was used on the Mac Pro. ForceWare 85.96 Mod for SLi on any Chipset?
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post #59 of 124
1/20/08 at 2:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I guess we have to define what the word "works" means.

...........

You tell me. Do these numbers look like it worked?
This is in the Mac Pro.
Quote:
Got my Mac Pro with 2x NVidia 7300 cards today. Used the PCI Express bandwidth config app in OS X to set slots 1 and 2 to 8x mode then I tested SLI in WinXP using the modified ForceWare 85.96 drivers (modified to work on any chipset). The drivers recognized the cards straight away and offered to enable SLI mode and it appears to work without any problems.

Did a quick test after installing XP and the drivers from bootcamp (no other tweaks yet)

3dmark2006 (free edition) results for one card:
3DMark Score 1642 3DMarks
SM 2.0 Score 595 Marks
SM 3.0 Score 551 Marks
cpu 3861

3dmark2006 (free edition) results with SLI enabled:
3DMark Score 3091 3DMarks
SM 2.0 Score 1162 Marks
SM 3.0 Score 1046 Marks
cpu 3861

Will do more tests when I get a chance

That's pretty much 2X the speed.
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post #60 of 124
1/20/08 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

Yes it was fully supported, but Nvidia decided to update the driver because they decided they wanted full control over SLI, so now it's locked out of anything that isn't an Nvidia chipset.

I think this was the first mod that worked after they disabled it, and I think it's the same one that was used on the Mac Pro. ForceWare 85.96 Mod for SLi on any Chipset?

This isn't, from what I can see, anything that Nvidia did. The link is to a Russian site that has nothing but 404 on any link.
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post #61 of 124
1/20/08 at 2:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

You tell me. Do these numbers look like it worked?
This is in the Mac Pro.


That's pretty much 2X the speed.

Who are you quoting?
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post #62 of 124
1/20/08 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Do you know this, or are you just guessing?

The Intel 5400 chipset (aka "Seaburg") does support Crossfire. If third-party graphics cards work at all in Windows on the Mac Pro, Crossfire should, too. With the proper drivers of course. Won't know until/unless someone tries it.
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post #63 of 124
1/20/08 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Who are you quoting?

I'm taking these from the links in the posts that you are not reading. Start reading them, because I'm done giving all these answers twice. No offense, but I have to go to bed. Bye.
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post #64 of 124
1/20/08 at 3:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker View Post

I'm taking these from the links in the posts that you are not reading. Start reading them, because I'm done giving all these answers twice. No offense, but I have to go to bed. Bye.

Ok, I read the linkcompletely.

Two guys claim to have gotten SLI two work, and two others say they couldn't get Windows to recognize the second card at all.

Nothing for OS X at all

Two and two.

What other evidence is there/
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post #65 of 124
1/20/08 at 3:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

The Intel 5400 chipset (aka "Seaburg") does support Crossfire. If third-party graphics cards work at all in Windows on the Mac Pro, Crossfire should, too. With the proper drivers of course. Won't know until/unless someone tries it.

Ok, so then if thise is what'd in the machine, and if somehow, Crossfire isn't disabled, then with the proper cards, and drivers, it should work.

Of course, which cards, and what drivers?
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post #66 of 124
1/20/08 at 4:29pm
Yah I actually saw that. I'd like some screenshots as to complete heresay. Maybe I haven't been following SLI long enough... in the beginning you HAD to have an Nvidia chipset... as I pasted above.

Quote:
NVIDIA has stated that only their own chipsets can allow SLI to function optimally, and that they will not allow SLI to work on any other vendor's chipsets. Some early SLI systems used Intel's E7525 Xeon chipset, which caused problems when NVIDIA started locking out other vendor's chipsets as it limited them to an outdated driver set. In 2007, Intel has licensed NVIDIA's SLI technology for its SkullTrail platform.

Still.. the 5xxx chipset that Mac Pro uses... didn't fall under that category. I'm all for it if someone actually did get SLI working... but something doesn't add up. I'd love someone to prove me wrong... show how and why it works that way. I haven't seen a real explanation yet, and that is why I'm very skeptical.

 

 

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post #67 of 124
1/20/08 at 7:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647 View Post

Yah I actually saw that. I'd like some screenshots as to complete heresay. Maybe I haven't been following SLI long enough... in the beginning you HAD to have an Nvidia chipset... as I pasted above.



Still.. the 5xxx chipset that Mac Pro uses... didn't fall under that category. I'm all for it if someone actually did get SLI working... but something doesn't add up. I'd love someone to prove me wrong... show how and why it works that way. I haven't seen a real explanation yet, and that is why I'm very skeptical.

They were using various modified versions.
Some worked on any intel, or AMD chipset.

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=191082
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post #68 of 124
1/20/08 at 7:59pm
Very interesting... Looks like another proof of concept that hackers can not be stopped via hardware... /points at hackintosh macs.

 

 

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post #69 of 124
1/20/08 at 8:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647 View Post

Very interesting... Looks like another proof of concept that hackers can not be stopped via hardware... /points at hackintosh macs.

I have a friend who has been using OS X Tiger on a Dell for about two years now. He says that some programs work well and others won't even open, and while everything in the OS works nothing is optimized like in a bona fide Mac. Still, he does say it has worked out well as a media serverdespite the 40Mbps average on his 1000Mbps NICand recommends it for any hobbyist with an old machine lying around.
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post #70 of 124
1/20/08 at 8:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647 View Post

Yah I actually saw that. I'd like some screenshots as to complete heresay. Maybe I haven't been following SLI long enough... in the beginning you HAD to have an Nvidia chipset... as I pasted above.



Still.. the 5xxx chipset that Mac Pro uses... didn't fall under that category. I'm all for it if someone actually did get SLI working... but something doesn't add up. I'd love someone to prove me wrong... show how and why it works that way. I haven't seen a real explanation yet, and that is why I'm very skeptical.

Maybe the obsolete drivers work, but not too well.
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post #71 of 124
1/20/08 at 9:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Ok, so then if thise is what'd in the machine, and if somehow, Crossfire isn't disabled, then with the proper cards, and drivers, it should work.

Of course, which cards, and what drivers?

Most ATI cards support Crossfire. I don't know if the really low-end, 2400 series cards will do it, but the 2600 series certainly can. Of course the Mac Pro by default comes with a 2600 card, but I don't if that card will work, since it obviously has a weird firmware.

So you would need a matched pair of ATI graphics cards from the 2xxx or 3xxx series, and a bridge cable to connect them. That bridge should come with the cards. You would also have to connect high-end cards like 3870's to six-pin power cables.

As for drivers, I don't know. Ordinarily, the latest drivers from AMD's site would be recommended. I know that Boot Camp includes drivers for the Mac's graphics, but I don't know if the Boot Camp driver is *required* due to EFI or something. If it is, it might not allow Crossfire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI_CrossFire
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post #72 of 124
1/20/08 at 10:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

Most ATI cards support Crossfire. I don't know if the really low-end, 2400 series cards will do it, but the 2600 series certainly can. Of course the Mac Pro by default comes with a 2600 card, but I don't if that card will work, since it obviously has a weird firmware.

So you would need a matched pair of ATI graphics cards from the 2xxx or 3xxx series, and a bridge cable to connect them. That bridge should come with the cards. You would also have to connect high-end cards like 3870's to six-pin power cables.

As for drivers, I don't know. Ordinarily, the latest drivers from AMD's site would be recommended. I know that Boot Camp includes drivers for the Mac's graphics, but I don't know if the Boot Camp driver is *required* due to EFI or something. If it is, it might not allow Crossfire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI_CrossFire

Sorry for my bad spelling there. I almost couldn't understand it myself when I read it back.

More modern Crossfire cards don't have to be the same.

This whole thing about EFI is over done, methinks.

Remember that Vista doesn't yet support EFI. That won't come until SP1, and only on 64 bit.

Yet, It does run under Bootcamp. I'm wondering what Apple did there, if anything.
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post #73 of 124
1/21/08 at 1:44am
It is not about power but about EFI 32bit vs 63 bit.

Apple said it wasn't intentionally, this is the reason why the kit on apple store don't say anything.

Don't give up on Apple on this issue yet, the card isn't still out as a kit.
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post #74 of 124
1/21/08 at 2:11am
I have a new generation Mac Pro and ordered mine with the ATI option since I can't wait the 5-6 weeks for it to come. I had to replace my current computer. My issue, I have to use 3 monitors anyway so am looking for a 2nd video card. I know I could save money with a 2nd ATI and I'm not sure if I'll need a 8800 GT for my use but I'm wondering, could I put both an ATI and a NVidia in my system or do I have to get a 2nd ATI for my 2nd card?
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post #75 of 124
1/21/08 at 6:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

More modern Crossfire cards don't have to be the same.

...

Yet, It does run under Bootcamp. I'm wondering what Apple did there, if anything.

The cards don't have to be the same, but they need to be close. A 2600PRO + 2600XT would work, as would a 3850 + 3870, I think. The driver would underclock the faster card to match the slower. It's just easier to explain by saying you need two of the same card.

And as for EFI, other operating systems work because Apple went back and added a Compatibility Support Module to put legacy BIOS support in. All Macs have this now, but the very first Intel Macs did not. How that affects third-party graphics drivers, I don't know. I'd experiment, but my Macs are too old to run Windows outside of VirtualPC.

I suspect this problem is the result of two incompatible EFI versions. The graphics card has to get booted with the computer or there's going to be trouble.
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post #76 of 124
1/21/08 at 6:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by markw10 View Post

I have a new generation Mac Pro and ordered mine with the ATI option since I can't wait the 5-6 weeks for it to come. I had to replace my current computer. My issue, I have to use 3 monitors anyway so am looking for a 2nd video card. I know I could save money with a 2nd ATI and I'm not sure if I'll need a 8800 GT for my use but I'm wondering, could I put both an ATI and a NVidia in my system or do I have to get a 2nd ATI for my 2nd card?

You should be able to use both. Switch the ATI for the Nvidia, and use the ATI in the second slot.
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post #77 of 124
1/21/08 at 6:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

The cards don't have to be the same, but they need to be close. A 2600PRO + 2600XT would work, as would a 3850 + 3870, I think. The driver would underclock the faster card to match the slower. It's just easier to explain by saying you need two of the same card.

And as for EFI, other operating systems work because Apple went back and added a Compatibility Support Module to put legacy BIOS support in. All Macs have this now, but the very first Intel Macs did not. How that affects third-party graphics drivers, I don't know. I'd experiment, but my Macs are too old to run Windows outside of VirtualPC.

I suspect this problem is the result of two incompatible EFI versions. The graphics card has to get booted with the computer or there's going to be trouble.

You're right about the compatibility layer, though I'm not quite sure about how it works. It's become more comlicated since the first models came out. But, Bootcamp worked from the very first, even without that, so that can't be the whole answer.
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post #78 of 124
1/21/08 at 8:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Sorry for my bad spelling there. I almost couldn't understand it myself when I read it back.

More modern Crossfire cards don't have to be the same.

This whole thing about EFI is over done, methinks.

Remember that Vista doesn't yet support EFI. That won't come until SP1, and only on 64 bit.

Yet, It does run under Bootcamp. I'm wondering what Apple did there, if anything.

Just a reminder that new Mac Pros and Leopard are 64bit, and the New Mac Pro's EFI is UEFI64, and the last ones were EFI32. So hopefully being that the new Apple EFI scheme is 64bit there is a chance that we will be able to use some of the new windows EFI cards when they become available. (maybe with a little 3rd party help) Hopefully Apple is counting on this to bolster its image about graphics and compatibility.
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post #79 of 124
1/21/08 at 9:19am
Quote:
Apple has a good relationship with Nvidia. Apple could ask. What would it hurt? They just need the source code for the ForceWare 85.96 drivers and the modification, and compile it for Leopard. End of story. Then we'd have damn near Platform parity with PC's in graphics.

It's about time apple pulled their finger out their asss on stuff like this. What's taking so long? We're using Intel cpus at last and APple are still dicking around on GPUs. Onlookers frustration is palpable. Apple are selling 2 million plus computers a quarter. 8 million a year. It's not beans.

What is it with them and GPUs?

Get Nividia to write the drivers or commission AMD. Or do it better themselves. Or change their approach. Or hire more GL programmers who know what they're doing. Why can't we just stick in any damn GPU.

And then there is the lack of choice for the iMac. Their 'mid range tower' computer.



Lemon Bon Bon.
You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...[/
Reply
You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...[/
Reply
post #80 of 124
1/21/08 at 9:21am
Quote:
Nvidia & AMD To Start Next Gen. GPU War In Q2
Published on January 21, 2008, 2:59 pm by Visionary
Filed under News > GPUs & Graphic Cards
Commercial Times talked about Nvidia and AMD introducing their next generation GPUs in Q2 this year, developed to support dual-core processors from Intel and AMD. The article mentioned that they have completed tape-out of the chips and will farm out productions of the chips to TSMC in March. Nvidia plans to introduce next-generation chip dubbed as G100 to challenge next-generation RV770 from AMD. Industry sources are pointing towards 55nm based RV770 supporting DX10.1.

About bloody time. And will Apple be there?

Lemon Bon Bon.
You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...[/
Reply
You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...[/
Reply
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