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Nearly 100 fixes planned for Apple's second Leopard update - Page 3

post #81 of 104
1/21/08 at 11:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik View Post

Overdoing what, drugs? Not lately, but 10.5.0 had several problems I can mention such as (1) the "data loss" problem, which struck my brother; (2) MacBook "stuck" problem which Apple corrected via Firmware (computers are hard to use when they're stuck); (3) poor quality installer that wiped a lot of people's drives. A lot of people lost a lot of data because of 10.5.0. It was hairy.

When my brother called Apple, the tech said "they released this thing WAY too early" and according to him/her, the data loss problem was wreaking havoc across the nation. But why would we hear about that? There is no system by which we would know. Only Apple really knows how many calls they got.

They stayed up some very late nights to get 10.5.1 as quick as they did. Their lives depended on it pretty much. Now, everything is stable and decent.

Overdoing the statement of problems. Whether that's because of drugs, only you can say.

But I've installed on four machines here at home with very few problems.

I know a fair number of others who also have it and most have also had few problems. a couple of people have had some problems, but one was otherwise software related (his fault), and I really don't remember why the other guy had problems. But this seems typical.

Some people exhibited one or more of the problems, but they have proved to be few, despite the rumors to the contrary.
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post #82 of 104
1/22/08 at 5:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I'm not so sure the OS will benefit so much from SSE4, but programs run in it will, if they're rewritten slightly.

I'm not a programmer, so take this with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that with CoreVideo and all the other internals of the OS, the third party programmers don't have to do much (if anything) to take advantage of SSE4 or any other new CPU feature.

Once Apple writes it into the OS, everything using those calls will benefit.

As for the OS, there will presumably be some benefit, particularly in graphics things, but most of the OS level features are so fast that any additional gains probably won't be noticed. For example, who cares if CoverFlow can go 20% faster?
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post #83 of 104
1/22/08 at 6:04am
Wow, I feel so lucky to not have suffered through all of these problems that everyone has. I upgraded the day Leopard was released (I pre-ordered it) and I have seen some glitches and the occasional minor problem which has required me to restart, but none of these deadly bugs have been crawling through my mac.

I guess it must be the fortuitous combination of RAID (stops bugs dead), ethernet (the calming vapors keeps panic at bay) and software patches (which if combined with chewing gum can stop leaks).

OK, yes I'm teasing those who say the sky is falling. And I actually am sorry that you have experienced these problems. BUT you are in the minority. Your experiences are NOT typical of all upgraders/Leopard users.

The overall satisfaction level with Leopard is 81%.

It just bothers me when people take their own little peephole on a situation (to borrow Vonnegut's brilliant turn of phrase) and try to make it the only true viewpoint for all of us.

I am sorry that Leopard has caused you problems. Please report them to Apple. Thank you.
"Too much of a good thing is great." Mae West
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"Too much of a good thing is great." Mae West
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post #84 of 104
1/22/08 at 7:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aresee View Post

Really, based on the minimum number of complaints I would say that 10.5 has been a very successful and relatively error free release.

I am currently running 10.4.11 and am about to upgrade to 10.5. I waited and listened to the screams from the early adopters. And they have been very quiet and minor with this release and I feel free to go ahead and update. -- And the screams from the past has been very loud and vocal. I can even remember a release that Apple pulled back within 24 hours because it was so bad.

Listen , i'm not the one stating that 100 corrections are going to be made on the update! All I'm saying is I don't recall the other versions of OSX getting as much corrections as this one. I'm not complaining about Leopard either. I just wish it had come out earlier as originally promised and without as many updates needed so soon- that's all. And I am not an late adaptor either- I am from the pre OSX days. Who wouldn't be satisfied with Leopard?
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post #85 of 104
1/22/08 at 9:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyoe View Post

You want NAS support? We'll GIVE you NAS support!

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=83434

*Salivates in a pacified manner.

Now to purchase that LaCie Porsche 500GB drive I've been waiting to buy. My 250GB backup is full of Backup files! Must. start. clean. with. fancy. UI. backup. app.
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post #86 of 104
1/22/08 at 9:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ouragan View Post

Mac OS X, version 10.5 was a premature release, just like Windows Vista. When will they stop passing off beta software for the real deal?


When people stop whining about how long it takes to release the thing in the first place.

I'm pretty cool with Leopard as none of the major issues I've read about affect me and my work, but I'm firmly in the wait-until-it's-ready camp. I'm not keen on being any company's paying guinea pig.

• • Programmer and designer of Ship out of Luck, an action/arcade game for iPad • • 

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• • Programmer and designer of Ship out of Luck, an action/arcade game for iPad • • 

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post #87 of 104
1/22/08 at 10:33am
From these forums I am not getting the impression that Leopard has been that bad or in much need of corrections. I seem to remember much further rants, screams, gnashing of teeth and other self abusing acts from other OS upgrades. But then again I am not following MacInTouch as closely as I used to. -- Bear in mind that unless it is important to me, I do not consider missing features, UI glitches or boneheaded implementations to be serious problems preventing me from upgrading. I only detected one serious problem to upgrading, and that was due to a hack that I do not have installed and can be resolved by doing an Archive and Install (you all do that, right?).

As a long time field engineer I never trust the initial installation of anything. To my way of thinking it is the third modification before the delivered item is performing the way the designers intended. The first release is to get the product out. The first update is to make the damn thing work. The second update catches up to what the designer wants and to correct those instances where the designer goofs and designs for one way of operations and the user actually uses it in another way. And finally the third update puts the final touches onto the product (think touchup paint). So under this 10.5.3 will be the update where Leopard is close to what the design team intended.

BTW, I ignore Chicken Little rants like bwik's as being unproductive and immature. They are out there screaming that the sky is falling without giving information on what their problems may be. They just like to hear themselves yell so can safely be ignorred.
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post #88 of 104
1/22/08 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiwai View Post

When that happens, Wall street might mature and realise that shipping a quality product which retains customers for the long term is a more sensible plan than ramming something out that might end up losing customers in the long run. But then again, when has Wall street ever been concerned about the long term?

Exactly. In short, ``When pigs fly.''
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post #89 of 104
1/22/08 at 12:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I'm not a programmer, so take this with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that with CoreVideo and all the other internals of the OS, the third party programmers don't have to do much (if anything) to take advantage of SSE4 or any other new CPU feature.

Once Apple writes it into the OS, everything using those calls will benefit.

As for the OS, there will presumably be some benefit, particularly in graphics things, but most of the OS level features are so fast that any additional gains probably won't be noticed. For example, who cares if CoverFlow can go 20% faster?

A great deal of what Apple is doing with its "core" technologies isn't using SSE at all, but rather moving those calculations off to the gpu.

These technologies complement each other. But, most SSE functionality will be realized by programs that have been optimized to use them.
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post #90 of 104
1/22/08 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Listen , i'm not the one stating that 100 corrections are going to be made on the update! All I'm saying is I don't recall the other versions of OSX getting as much corrections as this one. I'm not complaining about Leopard either. I just wish it had come out earlier as originally promised and without as many updates needed so soon- that's all. And I am not an late adaptor either- I am from the pre OSX days. Who wouldn't be satisfied with Leopard?

Until we know exactly what they are, we can't even call them bugs.

While there are going to be some bugs, many others are additions, even if minor, speedups to processes (optimizations, etc).

A good deal of that can't be called bugs, as all software is in a constant state of flux, and improvement.

If everything is being improved, then we may as well call everything buggy, as every major upgrade improves upon the ones before.

We know tht there are a few major bugs that are affecting a few people, but most of what's being done is likely not affecting most anything we do to a noticable extent.

I was one who complained that 10.4 was released too early, and it clearly was, based on what happened that year.

I remember quite well that while it didn't have an update as large as this one seems to be, operationally, there were many more smaller problems that dogged a much larger number of people.

So far, 10.5 has been much more stable.

I usually call for much slower releases, so that all known bugs get fixed, but people get mad when I say that.
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post #91 of 104
1/22/08 at 1:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I usually call for much slower releases, so that all known bugs get fixed, but people get mad when I say that.

Of course. The more hastily Apple releases updates the more we'll have to bitch about.
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post #92 of 104
1/22/08 at 1:08pm
I've got Leopard and only had one issue with it which is it just refusing to restart or shutdown, finally requiring me to hold down the power button and yeah. However I restart/shutdown my computer very rarely so it hasn't pissed me off too much.
Windows Development Team Motto: We are not happy until YOU are not happy
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Windows Development Team Motto: We are not happy until YOU are not happy
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post #93 of 104
1/22/08 at 4:52pm
What I'm wondering is what Apple is going to do with the rest of the dot updates if they squash the vast majority of the bugs with .2? It sounds to me like they are really trying to get everything fixed with this update so the rest could be used for other fun things, though I have no idea what that would be.

I'm just sayin'.....
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post #94 of 104
1/22/08 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Green View Post

What I'm wondering is what Apple is going to do with the rest of the dot updates if they squash the vast majority of the bugs with .2? It sounds to me like they are really trying to get everything fixed with this update so the rest could be used for other fun things, though I have no idea what that would be.

I'm just sayin'.....

There will always be more bugs; always more things to tweak.
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post #95 of 104
1/22/08 at 5:25pm
I have a 15" MB Pro 2.2 ghz with 2MB of ram & since I've installed Leopard, everything runs slower and is less stable (I keep losing my internet connection thru my AirPort Extreme even though my Vonage phone still works fine).

I should add that I'm running a small business and doing very simple tasks:
- Entourage
- Excel
- QuickBooks
- Safari surfing (Mozilla FireFox runs too slow for most tasks & I especially like the easy ability to enlarge fonts from the toolbar in Safari).

My chief complaints:
1. I can't believe that it takes 2-4 seconds to open a folder and subsequent sub-folder.
2. Unstable internet connection.
3. I had hoped to switch from Entourage to Apple Mail, but two lacking features prevented this:
A) I can't pre-view a message without it appearing as "Read"
B) Attached files are put into the middle of the message as opposed to an attachment list.
4. The view of sub-folders is all the same, whereas in Tiger the previous view selection (Icon or list, etc.) remained the same when that sub-folder was re-visited, even though the folder above it may have a different default view. This made it easy to drill deeper into my series of folders in my Briefcase.

Hopefully Apple will recognize these weaknesses, because there are a lot of guys like me who will quickly switch from Windows if the learning curve is not so steep.

Also, why can't Apple put a second button on their laptops so that a right-click is possible? The whole appeal of the Mac OS is it's supposed intuitiveness. Remembering to hit 4 buttons to take a screen shot is not intuitive (rather it is keyboard twister)?
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post #96 of 104
1/22/08 at 5:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Sukalewski View Post

I have a 15" MB Pro 2.2 ghz with 2MB of ram & since I've installed Leopard, everything runs slower and is less stable (I keep losing my internet connection thru my AirPort Extreme even though my Vonage phone still works fine).

Also, why can't Apple put a second button on their laptops so that a right-click is possible? The whole appeal of the Mac OS is it's supposed intuitiveness. Remembering to hit 4 buttons to take a screen shot is not intuitive (rather it is keyboard twister)?

You have a problem with your Leopard installation, a program or some bad hardware. Run Disk Utility and verify the disk and fix permissions.

You do have right clicking abilities. You need to enable it in the preferences so when you depress the mouse with two fingers on the trackpad is does the right click for you.
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post #97 of 104
1/22/08 at 5:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Sukalewski View Post

I have a 15" MB Pro 2.2 ghz with 2MB of ram & since I've installed Leopard, everything runs slower and is less stable (I keep losing my internet connection thru my AirPort Extreme even though my Vonage phone still works fine).

I should add that I'm running a small business and doing very simple tasks:
- Entourage
- Excel
- QuickBooks
- Safari surfing (Mozilla FireFox runs too slow for most tasks & I especially like the easy ability to enlarge fonts from the toolbar in Safari).

My chief complaints:
1. I can't believe that it takes 2-4 seconds to open a folder and subsequent sub-folder.
2. Unstable internet connection.
3. I had hoped to switch from Entourage to Apple Mail, but two lacking features prevented this:
A) I can't pre-view a message without it appearing as "Read"
B) Attached files are put into the middle of the message as opposed to an attachment list.
4. The view of sub-folders is all the same, whereas in Tiger the previous view selection (Icon or list, etc.) remained the same when that sub-folder was re-visited, even though the folder above it may have a different default view. This made it easy to drill deeper into my series of folders in my Briefcase.

Hopefully Apple will recognize these weaknesses, because there are a lot of guys like me who will quickly switch from Windows if the learning curve is not so steep.

Also, why can't Apple put a second button on their laptops so that a right-click is possible? The whole appeal of the Mac OS is it's supposed intuitiveness. Remembering to hit 4 buttons to take a screen shot is not intuitive (rather it is keyboard twister)?

First off, many people are having wireless issues with Leopard and those issues will most likely correct themselves with the coming update. Hold tight.

In regard to your folder opening issues, I'm unsure of what could be causing your particular problems. I've had no problems with this. Perhaps there's a member on this thread observing similar issues and can suggest methods to correct the problem your specific setup appears to be having.

Apple Mail does have a button that allows you to mark a message as unread. It's under View and Customize Toolbar. Just drag it into the mail toolbar and you can look at any message and then mark it as unread if you choose to do so.

Mail attachments are certainly different than Hotmail and other email programs. It does take some getting used to, but to be honest, it's just something you'll have to get used to if you choose to use the App. I'd also like to suggest that you try out the Quick Look button in every email message with attachments.

The second key used to right click is the Control key. You can always get yourself a mouse with a right click button should you choose to go that route.

The screenshot feature requires three keys: Shift+Command+3 pressed simultaneously. Once you know it, it doesn't take more than a second to do.

Best wishes to you and your conversion over to Leopard.
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post #98 of 104
1/22/08 at 6:01pm
Thanks for the replies.

Unfortunately, I must not be able to explain my problems clearly, as the Genius Bar guys at Apple replied the same.

The need to remember any sequence of keys to do a function is NOT INTUITIVE. This was the great advance the the mouse brought to computing over DOS.

Needing to hit the CTRL button with the trackpad button is not nearly as convenient as a simple right click, and prevents the ability to right click and drag, (I don't want to plug in an external mouse, as I don't have room for it on a plane ride).

In Entourage, I can preview an email without it appearing as read (un-bold) in the message list. In Apple Mail, if I accidently tap my track pad when scrolling down the message list, then a message is un-bolded and I forget to read it as new. I know this may sound trivial, but with lots of incoming messages, this causes me to miss a timely response.

Finally, since 94% of the corporate world uses MS Outlook for email, Apple needs to make the switch to Apple Mail easy. I don't want to re-learn how to communicate. This is why i went to Entourage when I got my first PowerBook 2 years ago (it blows my mind that MicroSoft can't include the same features in Entourage as they have in Outlook, as the issues with Entourage is what caused me to look at Apple Mail in the first place).
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post #99 of 104
1/22/08 at 6:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Sukalewski View Post

The need to remember any sequence of keys to do a function is NOT INTUITIVE. This was the great advance the the mouse brought to computing over DOS.

Then use the other option.
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post #100 of 104
1/22/08 at 8:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Sukalewski View Post

Finally, since 94% of the corporate world uses MS Outlook for email, Apple needs to make the switch to Apple Mail easy. I don't want to re-learn how to communicate. This is why i went to Entourage when I got my first PowerBook 2 years ago (it blows my mind that MicroSoft can't include the same features in Entourage as they have in Outlook, as the issues with Entourage is what caused me to look at Apple Mail in the first place).

Thank Microsoft. They have made it next to impossible to get anything out of Outlook. Regardless of the platform or client.
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post #101 of 104
1/22/08 at 10:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Sukalewski View Post

Thanks for the replies.

Unfortunately, I must not be able to explain my problems clearly, as the Genius Bar guys at Apple replied the same.

The need to remember any sequence of keys to do a function is NOT INTUITIVE. This was the great advance the the mouse brought to computing over DOS.

Needing to hit the CTRL button with the trackpad button is not nearly as convenient as a simple right click, and prevents the ability to right click and drag, (I don't want to plug in an external mouse, as I don't have room for it on a plane ride).

In Entourage, I can preview an email without it appearing as read (un-bold) in the message list. In Apple Mail, if I accidently tap my track pad when scrolling down the message list, then a message is un-bolded and I forget to read it as new. I know this may sound trivial, but with lots of incoming messages, this causes me to miss a timely response.

Finally, since 94% of the corporate world uses MS Outlook for email, Apple needs to make the switch to Apple Mail easy. I don't want to re-learn how to communicate. This is why i went to Entourage when I got my first PowerBook 2 years ago (it blows my mind that MicroSoft can't include the same features in Entourage as they have in Outlook, as the issues with Entourage is what caused me to look at Apple Mail in the first place).

Unfortunately, as OS's and programs, become more complex over the years, intuitiveness partly goes out the window(s).

There isn't much anyone can do about that. As key sequences get used for one thing, the ones that are left become less intuitive.

MS has chosen to make Outlook mail files one big file. You can't easily get inside.

When you move from one OS to another, there will be many things that are different. You simply have to learn new ways of doing these things. Intuitiveness doesn't mean doing everything the way MS does. If you're so stuck on the way they do things, then you will have a problem.

You have to let go. If you can't do that, then you will never be happy.

If that proves to be the case, as much as I dislike saying so, then you might have to run windows under Bootcamp, or a virtualization program such as Parallels, or VMware.

If that isn't helpful, then there's only one more choice.
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post #102 of 104
1/22/08 at 10:58pm
Phil's remarks sound kinda like the usual one hears from someone who's recently gone from Windows to OS X (there's always a learning curve), but for someone who had a PowerBook two years ago and now an MBP... what's that about? Why get a second Apple notebook if it's so much trouble? And now the MBP's have double tap to make life much easier... what's the complaint about a right trackpad button? Me, I go back and forth between PC's and Mac's and don't have any trouble on either of them: right button on the PC, double tap on the Mac. Unless I'm reading this wrong, I'm confused....
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post #103 of 104
1/23/08 at 3:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Sukalewski View Post

The whole appeal of the Mac OS is it's supposed intuitiveness. Remembering to hit 4 buttons to take a screen shot is not intuitive (rather it is keyboard twister)?

No, it is for pianists. That's one of the reasons Macs appeal to art people.
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post #104 of 104
1/23/08 at 8:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBoar View Post

Issues with Leapard.
1.No hierarical collapsing folders in the dock, I have had that feature since 8.6 or something (with the folder under the Apple menue)
2.The Document icon is less distinct than in 10.4
3. The Program folder Icon is less distinct than in 10.4
4. The program folder incon is now "Adobe Acrobat" since installing Acrobat
5. Firewall settings are now more hidden,
6. Scanners....
7. The brilliant feature of TimeMacine to run backups on any >800 MHz G4 but then require core animation capable graphic card if you want to actually recover anyhing. That is so sweet on the G4 towers and the G4 powerbooks and iMacs.

I have had all X sine public beta and they all have been big strides forward up to and including 10.4, all eagerly awaited and full with usefull new features. 10.5 sure have added pretty things and I am sure many under the hood things for multi core CPUs etc. But as far as a usefull GUI it feels on par with 10.2 or 10.1, not way ahead of 10.4

I'll add the annoying forced save every time to the Documents folder.

In Tiger it goes back to the last place you saved.

I really hate this shopping trolley wonkiness imposed on us as if we are all cretins and don't know what we are doing, so must be forced to do the "Right" thing as assumed by software engineers.
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