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New Browser for OS X......Chimera!!

post #1 of 92
Thread Starter 
All browsers for OS X have their own merits and some are better than other for their own reasons. I use Mozilla Mach-O most of the time. It is (well was) the fastest browser out there. However I did happen to stumble across a new browser out there. It is called Chimera. It is a fresh off the boards browser being developed by the same community that is doing Mozilla. It is being developed as a pure Cocoa application. I must say this browser is THE FASTEST HANDS DOWN BROWSER AVAILIBLE!!!! However it is still at version .11 so it is buggy, will crash, not all the standard functions work. But as a preview of the speed, design, and future ease of use this browser will provide, it rocks. This browser has features like Tabbed browsing, a slide drawer (like in Maill.app and OmniWeb... I have to say the Chimera slide drawer is smoother and more responsive than OmniWeb) The slide drawer contains, bookmarks, search engine & history. The interface is a clean Aqua design and easy on the eyes (nothing cluttering the browser). It launches quickly and speeds through pages like a rumor of an Apple PDA through the Mac Community. Now the bugs, as this is a FIRST release it is nowhere near complete. It WILL crash, my longest time without a crash is about 90 min. , but unlike OmniWeb it does't take a mineut or two to crash, but clears out quickly. Some links do not respond. QuickTime, no. Java, not that I have seen. Fill in spaces are a no go. There are a few other bugs to be worked out. My hope is that it will one day take advantage of the Quartz engine (this is what makes OmniWeb reneder pages so well and clear) but without any speed sacrifice. I will now give you the link and hope that everyone will give it a try.

<a href="http://chimera.mozdev.org/" target="_blank">http://chimera.mozdev.org/</a>

If you like what you see and want to help or tell the develpoers to keep up the great work their e-mail adresses are on the page as well.

I hope everyone who likes it will write in and tell them that the work they are doing is appreciated and that we look forward to the new releases.

Did you download it? What did you think?

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post #2 of 92
I tried it a few days ago and must say that it is insanely unstable!! It's got awesome potential and I greatly look forward to its progress.

I'm sticking with Moz0.9.8 and OW4.1sp42 for now.
post #3 of 92
I thought the mozilla license forbid people from making publicly available binaries with the gecko engine like that.
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post #4 of 92
If it is being developed as a "true Cocoa application" as you say, then how come the fonts look like crap and their is no scrool wheel support? And how come we still get the ugly Windows-style and buttons and such? No Aqua?
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post #5 of 92
Thread Starter 
"If it is being developed as a "true Cocoa application" as you say, then how come the fonts look like crap and their is no scrool wheel support? And how come we still get the ugly Windows-style and buttons and such? No Aqua?"
----------------------------------------------------

Did I not say that this is only v.11 ? Come on give it a rest, it is not even Beta! It does not yet use the Quartz engine as it might do in the future. Lets see they have been working on it for only 21 days! Read my post, read the website. I was talking about the potential of the browser, not trying to start a crap fest of someting that the developers only released as a preview only 4 days ago so that people can know about it and hopefully attract some support for. I guess you only see the glass half empty as there was not even one constructive comment there just crap. Didn't your mother say that if you don't have anything nice to say, shut the hell up.

[ 02-17-2002: Message edited by: Odinn5 ]</p>
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post #6 of 92
It looks like it has a lot of potential; gotta love tabbed browsing.

I'll be keeping an eye on this one, but as of now it's not really worth more than drooling at the screenshots
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post #7 of 92
I'll try it out when it's actually stable.
post #8 of 92
I've enjoyed trying out Chimera.... for ten seconds at a time, between crashes!
post #9 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by Odinn5:
<strong>Didn't your mother say that if you don't have anything nice to say, shut the hell up.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, but my mother taught me that Cocoa apps don't need any extra work to use Aqua. She taught me that all windows in a Cocoa app need no extra work to take advantage of scroll wheels. She taught me that Cocoa apps use the Cocoa aa scheme and not the one in Chimera.

And quit being such an ass. I was asking legitimate questions.
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post #10 of 92
The last thing I need is YAB, Yet Another Browser.
post #11 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by ThinkingDifferent:
<strong>The last thing I need is YAB, Yet Another Browser. </strong><hr></blockquote>

No, but the first thing you need is the best browser. And right now, IE sucks and all of the other browsers are not perfect.
post #12 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by crawlingparanoia:
<strong>

She taught me that all windows in a Cocoa app need no extra work to take advantage of scroll wheels.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

well, at least here she taught you wrong
post #13 of 92
Well, for some strange reason my scroll wheel works in all of my Cocoa apps but only a few select Carbon apps, and not in any open/save dialogs of Carbon apps, even in those that do support scroll wheels. Can someone explain this to me then?
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post #14 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by corvette:
<strong>

No, but the first thing you need is the best browser. And right now, IE sucks and all of the other browsers are not perfect.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You speak the truth but I don't see where this one is going to improve the situation. Acoording to the author, this browser is only 21 days old. How long has Omniweb, IE and Netscape been in development?
post #15 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by crawlingparanoia:
<strong>No, but my mother taught me that Cocoa apps...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm guessing your mother isn't a developer? Well, not a smart one, at least.
post #16 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by ThinkingDifferent:
<strong>You speak the truth but I don't see where this one is going to improve the situation.</strong><hr></blockquote>How will it improve?
Let's see....

We've got Gecko: a fast, standards-compliant engine.
We've got a Cocoa interface that uses native Aqua goodies.
We'll soon have the smooth Cocoa-style AA text. (see bugtracker)
We'll soon have an improved download manager. (see bugtracker)
Even more?

Basically, it'll be an awesome competitor against OmniWeb. If you learned anything from your old high school economics class, competition is a Good Thing.
post #17 of 92
So I guess what you guys are saying, is that if I were to go write an app in Cocoa, that I would get all of those ugly Windows-style buttons to start, and that it would require extra work to get it to use Aqua? I don't think so. Maybe Chimera is a Cocoa app not using extras.rsrc or something? I don't know... I'm not a developer and you guys aren't providing any answers.

(I'd appreciate in the future no references to my mother, thank you)
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post #18 of 92
I know its a full fledged web client vs just a browser.... but look at that cpu load.

Also notice the slighty 'nicer' rendering of macnn's tabs. Though without looking at the html its hard to tell what the coder intended(my guess is the chimera way).

I do however like the mozilla look over the native aqua. Using aqua widgets != good usability or design. I would prefer if the developers kept the client as it is in Netscape6, perhaps just using full aqua widgets in only the embeddable version of the browser. To allow styles(colors and sizes outside of aqua's range) in forms and such they should keep the gecko widgets, otherwise Chimera will NOT be as capable as IE is, and this project has every right to clean IE's clock.

I guess the question is whether Chimera is to be a full NS browser (supporting themes and styles) or just a tech-demo for this embedable browserView?




ps - drawers are a hellish ugly creation and I wish Apple could unmake them.(who knows... they deprecated docklets pretty well)
post #19 of 92
havanas:

I suggest you use Mozilla 0.9.8 rather than Netscape 6. If you don't like the Aqua look, simply apply the "Modern" theme to it and you get the Netscape look. Moz is currently MUCH better, IMO, than NS (and it fixes the rendering bug you pointed out). Also, I agree with you about drawers. Yuck. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

crawlingparanoia:

Well, you brought your mother into this to begin with. Anyway, what you are forgetting is that just because something is Cocoa doesn't mean it can't have Carbon parts or that it can't create custom widgets. QuickTime is Carbon, for example, yet it works fine in Cocoa apps. If I understand correctly, though I may be wrong, Chimera is like that. The browser itself is a Carbon implementation in a Cocoa interface. Besides that, the browser uses custom drawing procedures to create the buttons. As shown by the improvements in Mozilla, developers are working on grabbing images from the system for their widgets (although they are still not "native" widgets, they *look* like native widgets).

However, havanas does make a good point about keeping the windows-ish widgets *inside* the browser view so that themes can be applied per the pages' design.

It's all a complicated mess!! <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" />

[ 02-17-2002: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
post #20 of 92
Actually Odinn5 brought her into this.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification.

But still, if it is a Cocoa app using Carbon parts, it still isn't a "pure Cocoa application" as Odinn5 originally said.
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post #21 of 92
Thread Starter 
I said nothing bad about your mother, I just didn't like the way you contribute your thoughts on what I thought I made clear was a very new and incomplete browser. Your comments ( a term I use very loosely, they are better termed as b*tchings ) could have been put in a more constructive form, as I was not trying to start a flame session about a browser that I am very excited about. I am sure you would be happy about someone pissing on a subject you were excited about. Thanks for the fun that you have provided in what I hoped what would be a great forum that the develpoers could use for suggestions. Thank you everyone else for keeping the comments civilized and professional.

[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: Odinn5 ]</p>
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post #22 of 92
This is sad. There's a new, ultra fast, Cocoa and Gecko based browser in development for the Mac, and some people's first reaction is to try to piss on it.

It's a pre-alpha technology demonstration release, and it's already pretty darn cool. It may crash a lot right now, but it's faster than anything else avaliable for the Mac, as well as better looking than everything except perhaps OmniWeb (and it renders pages WAY better than OW).

Some people..


-robo
post #23 of 92
[quote]I said nothing bad about your mother<hr></blockquote>I know that and I never accused you of such. I only said that we could keep her out of this. That is all.

[quote]I just didn't like the way you contribute your thoughts on what I thought I made clear was a very new and incomplete browser. Your comments ( a term I use very loosely, they are better termed as b*tchings ) could have been put in a more constructive form<hr></blockquote>Cool thing about the Internet: people are judged based on their ideas and ideas alone. Bad thing about the Internet: written word can be misinterpreted and very easily taken the wrong way.

Perhaps I should have changed "fonts look like crap" to fonts are smoothed poorly, but I certainly wasn't bitching. I seriously wanted to know how a pure Cocoa app could behave in the way that Chimera does.

You say...
[quote]I was not trying to start a flame session about a browser that I am very excited about<hr></blockquote>
but then you say...
[quote]I guess you only see the glass half empty as there was not even one constructive comment there just crap. Didn't your mother say that if you don't have anything nice to say, shut the hell up.<hr></blockquote>I didn't make any comments, only had questions. If you look at my post - two sentences and a fragment - all three were questions.

[quote] I am sure you would be happy about someone pissing on a subject you were excited about.<hr></blockquote>I, like you, would not find that fun. I am sorry my original questions were taken the wrong way.

[quote]Thanks for the fun that you have provided in what I hoped what would be a great forum that the develpoers could use for suggestions.<hr></blockquote>So you started this thread so that the Chimera developers could use it as feedback? Did you email them the link? What did they think? (seriously)

[quote]Thank you everyone else for keeping the comments civilized and professional.<hr></blockquote>Well the following wasn't very professional: [quote]Originally posted by starfleetX:
I'm guessing your mother isn't a developer? Well, not a smart one, at least. <hr></blockquote>Despite that, it was starfleetX who finally answered my questions. Thanks again.

Moving on...

I think if they can get the Cocoa AA-scheme in there and either Aqua or a consistent, non-Windows-like UI in there, it could turn out to be great. I tried it out only briefly, had no crashes, it was pretty fast, and the tabbed-browser mode was cool.
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post #24 of 92
Ditto robo
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post #25 of 92
robo and Solishu,
I am not now, now was I ever, trying to piss on this thread. Read my post above. I had legitimate questions which, while they might not have been written the most happily way possible, were still legitimate question - legitimate questions which took 15 more posts to answer (thanks again starfleetX).
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post #26 of 92
Thread Starter 
crawlingparanoia

Just when I was starting to think you were Bill Gates in disguise, you turn around and pull a very cool "I see how you might have taken it wrong" viewpoint that I really appreciate and respect. I thank you very much for seeing how I was feeling and were decent enough to let me know what your intentions were. I am glad that we could clear this thing up as this forum was starting to lose its fun factor for me. Again thank you. And to everyone else I will plea to you that we keep it cool, professional, and civilized so that we can all have fun without anyone feeling bad and make them not return to this thread and lose their valuable insight.

In resopnse to your question...

--------------------------------------------------
So you started this thread so that the Chimera developers could use it as feedback? Did you email them the link? What did they think? (seriously)
--------------------------------------------------

Honestly as of right this second, no. I did not start the thread as a development forum but had thought of doing that untill our little trouble started. But as soon as I am finished typing.... off it goes.

As you said moving on...

I find the best way to use Chimera in its current form is to start from the Untitled:Blank screen to use a bookmark, and to go on from there. It seems to hang around for a little while longer.

In fact if you do try out Chimera, time it. Let's see how long it can be kept up for.

[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: Odinn5 ]</p>
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post #27 of 92
Thread Starter 
Link has been sent and I hope they visit to maybe answer questions or to reap some great ideas we could come up with.
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post #28 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by Odinn5:
<strong>Link has been sent and I hope they visit to maybe answer questions or to reap some great ideas we could come up with.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just something that popped into my head... if I recall correctly, I believe some of the Omni guys post over at the MacNN boards.
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post #29 of 92
uhm, where exactly is this browser faster than omniweb? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
post #30 of 92
On my machine, it is a bit faster at e.g. window resizing. Then again, that could just be because there's much less running behind the interface; I dunno if it'll slow down when they get more of it working.

If Omniweb got tabbed browsing, though, I'd take it home and love it forever and ever.
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post #31 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by Odinn5:
<strong>Link has been sent and I hope they visit to maybe answer questions or to reap some great ideas we could come up with.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?a=tpc&s=50009562&f=8300945231&m=7860966473" target="_blank">Do you mean this one over at that place we're not supposed to talk about?</a> I think it would be good if he (hyatt) did read the comments here also.

But do us all a favor if he(they) do(es) come here...

nobody be an @ss.... its an chance to give honest feedback to a real live developers... dont run 'em out of town...
post #32 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by rocky racoon:
<strong>uhm, where exactly is this browser faster than omniweb? :confused: </strong><hr></blockquote>

We're talking about page rendering, not window resizing or scrolling, which are another matter.

IE uses it's own page rendering engine, which is great on the PC, but slow on Mac OS X.
OmniWeb uses it's own page rendering engine, which is very 'OS X friendly' but slow and has problems with some pages.
Mozilla based browsers (including Chimera) use the Gecko layout engine, which is both fast and standards compliant. Fizilla uses a Carbon based port of Gecko, which is quite fast, while Chimera uses the pure UNIX Gecko back end, which is as blazingly fast as something really fast covered with cooking oil sliding downhill on Jupiter.


This is what we are excited about (oh, and the Cocoa based Aqua wrapper too )

-robo

[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: robo ]</p>
post #33 of 92
Ok, addressing some of the comments/questions above.

Chimera can be thought of as being divided into two parts: the front end and the embeddable browser control. The front end is pure Cocoa, and the back end is a mixture of Carbon and Cocoa. Specifically we're using NSQuickDrawViews, Cocoa objects that enable you to get to a GrafPtr for Carbon-style drawing.

Right now we're having to start with a current snapshot of Gecko. That means it has all the objectionable problems that Mozilla has, namely a lack of Quartz rendering and ugly form controls. We are actively working on solving both of these problems.

(1) Lack of scroll wheel support and key event support is because the Gecko widget back end is being ported to Cocoa, and it isn't finished yet. I just got scroll wheel support working today, so expect that in the next downloadable build.

(2) Quartz rendering. I have the browser up and limping with Quartz rendering, but the implementation is suboptimal, and the speed hit is unacceptable. I'm not going to turn this on until I'm convinced that the speed issues have been resolved. (Speed first, style second.)

(3) Scrolling. Right now scrolling is sluggish because I'm running into what I believe is a bug with NSQuickdrawView in Cocoa. It doesn't seem to honor the scrollRect function on NSView (it just blits white). I'm either going to have to fall into Carbon to solve the problem or try to figure out if this is my fault or not. Anyway, until this is fixed, scrolling is repainting the entire visible area when you move, and that's why it's slow.

(4) Form controls. The short term plan for form controls is to use nsITheme to do native rendering. However, Mozilla is about to pick up a new set of form controls, and we didn't want to waste time converting the old ones to look right when new ones are just around the corner. So we're waiting for the new ones to land, and then we'll make them look more like Aqua.

Remember, as far as the layout engine is concerned we are working with a thick cross-platform codebase and if we want to stay in sync with Mozilla and pick up changes/improvements to the engine, this is a constraint we simply have to work with.
You may think it's inane/insane that - for example - Gecko manages its own scrolling and clipping, but the payoff is that the rendering is incredibly consistent across multiple platforms. IMO that's a good thing and well worth a couple of megs of code bloat.

Finally ,this is just a preview that I released only after many people complained that there were no builds. We're well aware that the browser isn't really usable as yet..

Good things come to those who wait.
post #34 of 92
Thanks for the news Hyatt. Keep up the good work.
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post #35 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by robo:
<strong>

OmniWeb uses it's own page rendering engine, which is very 'OS X friendly' but slow and has problems with some pages.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i've never encountered problems with displaying pages (except from ones with iframes) and it renders faster than the pages load. at least it's fast enough for me

and there just isn't any browser which tops omniweb in style (i'm talking about the latest 4.1 sneakypeeks, not 4.0x) <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />

what's exactly the difference between chimera and mozilla? the cocoa-wrapper?
post #36 of 92
Pretty much, yes. I'm using Galeon right now... same idea. It's the best browser for linux/gnome. It yanks out Gecko, and puts it in a native widget set, which has less ram/cpu overhead (using system GTK libs instead of drawing it's own). It also tosses out the bloatware... the Chatzilla, mail, web page editor etc. "The web, only the web" is Galeon's slogan and it's a phenomenal, hella fast, stable, attractive browser. Incidentally, 'tabbed browsing' appeared first on Galeon, and was later adopted on mozilla after people realized what a dope-ass idea it is.

If I were running OSX, I'd be all over Chimera like a pedophile on a playground.

[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: stimuli ]</p>
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post #37 of 92
Actually, I believe tabbed browsing appeared first in a browser called NetCaptor that embeds IE on Win32.
post #38 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by rocky racoon:
<strong>uhm, where exactly is this browser faster than omniweb?</strong><hr></blockquote>As it's been pointed out, rendering is MUCH faster than OmniWeb. Just try any large thread at ArsTechnica or Slashdot that is really big and uses lots of tables.
[quote]<strong>i've never encountered problems with [OmniWeb] displaying pages (except from ones with iframes) and it renders faster than the pages load.</strong><hr></blockquote> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> I guess you never visit sites that use CSS, complex tables, or JavaScript!

Oh, and thanks for the insider info, hyatt!! :cool: I'm glad I was mostly right in my assumptions.

[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
post #39 of 92
Welcome to the forums, Hyatt.

I agree with robo's sentiments here... this project has so much potential to become the undisputed king of os x browsing; that is, unless M$ decides to rewrite IE6 in pure cocoa, with a rediculously fast new rendering engine ... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
post #40 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by robo:
<strong>IE uses it's own page rendering engine, which is great on the PC, but slow on Mac OS X.</strong><hr></blockquote>Actually, no, the Mac version and Windows version use two completely separate rendering engines. I think some Microsoft guy addressed this point a long time ago on the MacNN forums.
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