or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › Paradox of paradoxes
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Paradox of paradoxes

post #1 of 122
Thread Starter 
Well, I'm not exactly known as the guy who unloads much emotionally, but I need some combined brainpower/empathy to ponder what to do in this particular circumstance.

My wife recently decided to return to work after having left the workforce for several years to raise our two sons. We had agreed that she would return at the beginning of the 2007 school year however her lack of enthusiasm at this task was plainly evident and needless to say, when after eight months of not even getting her resume together, I figured she wasn't likely to be hired. She managed to finally pull it together and apply for one job after the beginning of the school year. She didn't get it and so since she wasn't working, we agreed that she would devote herself full-time to trying to address her health since she has gotten quite heavy for her size. We agreed that if this were not done that she would have to substitute starting with the new year since that would indicate another five months of basically no effort.

So January rolls around, nothing has been done health wise, no clubs joined, no food plans attempted, no exercise plan. So it is time to put down the foot and when I do she goes and finds a job at a neighboring district.

Now to be polite my wife has several ongoing problems that are now manifesting themselves as both problems and solutions now that she is working. In our household while she was home, it was basically summer camp. By this I mean that her time was hers and even with that the household wasn't kept up and she would often need my help. The time seemed to slip by and often so did the money. She would claim that she desired order but couldn't keep a schedule or a budget. She actually kept the check register but couldn't use the budget feature in Quicken or would magically make the numbers add up at the end of the month.

We didn't have money problems because I would take the growth from our investments and find some way to get even more from it to insure we always had savings and asset growth. I also really didn't care to address it that harshly because everyone was kept happy and really there are worse things in life than folding a basket of clothes or two to help when the wife and kids have wandered out to parks, museums, just around sometimes and enjoyed themselves through out the day even if blowing a little cash. I mean there are worse things in life to worry about and we are well ahead of the game of life than most.

So needless to say she has gone back to work and for everyone that is not her... it has been wonderful and that is where the paradox lays. When she decided to go back I told her flat out that instead of helping her with certain tasks, I would just assume responsibility for them and do them outright. So laundry, dishes, dropping off kids, preparing breakfast and lunch, and paying the bills are all mine now.

I do these tasks and in fact enjoy doing them now that we don't have to deal with the constant self-imposed inefficiencies she seems to demand and call "order." As an example she would do laundry in these impossibly small loads and in some ridiculously small non-laundry baskets. My first order of business was to buy regular laundry baskets, you know the $7 at Walmart kind and do it once a week. We now have 3-4 large loads done one day a week instead of 10-12 micro-loads that were done... daily... bi-daily.. not quite sure. I've taken our shopping back to more generic brands in terms of food staples. I've been watching the expenses more carefully. I've even taken to helping with certain tasks that are still hers since she is getting used to trying to balance work and home demands.

The results have been great on paper. We still have a few days to go but I'm estimating that we have a $900 reduction in monthly expenses from previous spending. This is not including her salary which we can now bank since we live within the one salary. She has actually lost 13 pounds in a month due to having to get up, go to work, keep a schedule, etc. I'm sure part of it is stress related but that is part of the paradox, most of the stress is self-imposed or created out of a refusal to adopt more productive methods of work (like with the laundry.)

In our house, the clothes are clean, the cabinets are well-stocked, the coffers are full so to speak with regard to budgeting.

So the paradox is of course my wife is miserable and we have small fights here and there related to control of matters she previously managed. Little short, terse conversations like these:

Her-It's Sunday, you should do the laundry.
Me-The laundry is fine. I like the weekends free and will do it on Monday.
Her-What about the kids going to school tomorrow and our going to work?
Me-I checked and everyone still has around four days of clothes left.
Her-But we could do it today, I can't take this disorder around her.
Me-They have plenty of clothes, no one is going to work or school in dirty clothes. They have clean clothes now because I did the laundry last Monday and left that weekend free as well.
Her-Well I'm going to just go do the laundry now since you won't do it.
Me- Can you give me a rational reason why we should be scared at doing laundry weekly? Is there some sort of fear we should have about only having four pairs of clean pants and half a dozen shirts available on Monday morning? Is someone going to die?
Her-You just don't appreciate order.
Me- Your way is not a synonym for order.

Her-I'm going to be late from work so please start dinner. After dinner I'll have to spend the entire evening making phone calls to parents.
Me-Why are you making 20 calls a day home?
Her-I have to tell the parents their kids misbehaved and that they have detention.
Me-Everyone else uses a detention form. The kids take it home, get it signed and bring it back.
Her-I can't do that. (really I won't) They won't bring them back if I do that.
Me- Have you tried it yet?
Her-No but I can tell from this bunch I won't get them back.
Me- Why don't you make a trade. They save your time and thus get theirs. Give them the form, if they bring it back they shave 5-10 minutes off the detention and get to leave a bit early. It makes everyone happy and saves you from 20 calls a day.
Her-I can't do that.
Me-Why not? You can't turn a 30 minute detention into a 25 minute detention to save yourself 60-90 minutes of calling a day?
Her-No I can't. If it says 30 then I want it to be 30.

With such wonderful reasoning, of course her job is overwhelming her. It now has to consume her evenings, her weekends, her holidays. I work in the same field though not at the same level and manage not to let this happen. I know she is returning to the classroom, but everything is pure drama. I know it is possible to gain control of your time and manage it effectively so that your entire life is not consumed by your job.

So herein is the paradox. In every objective measure including her physical health. Everything is better with her working now. We save money, the housework is done on a schedule or even if the schedule was missed you understand why as opposed to "I just couldn't get to that today." The homework is still done. The kids are still carted to sports. The bills are still paid. Everything is as it was or better. My wife is responsible for about half a meal a day in terms of preparation. We actually eat out less now.

The flip side is my wife declares she is completely miserable. Even though everything is objectively better and she will admit it when questioned on it, her inner-dialog, the mental processes that start the little tense conversations assure her it all must be falling to crap. I guess I could hope that over time, her inner-dialog and reality begin to be in sync. But sadly from past experience, this hasn't often worked out. She will basically create her own misery do to thought processes that paint her into a corner.

What are your thoughts?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #2 of 122
Sex?
post #3 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


What are your thoughts?

Nick I give you credit for opening up here honestly with our AI family. Not everyone would feel comfortable laying out all the details of life as you have done in a brief and compact "get to the point" way. I am sorry to hear that there are strains in your family because as you report your wife is not happy. I hear that you report that individual metrics under this configuration of her working has created a better situation for household finances and her health etc. I will have to say that I do not have an answer other than to say pray about this and have constructive conversations with your wife to explore options and in the process you may discover if the situation as it is can be tweeked or if there will have to be major changes. As long as you both agree to do what is best for the entire family while being understanding of each other's needs I believe you can come to resolution of this dilema.

I am sorry you are facing these difficulties.

Email me anytime.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #4 of 122
From what I see, you are a control freak. You married someone either lacking or suppressing their leadership skills. Woman wanting more control were incompatible with you. Your wife's inability or unwillingness to lead now frustrates you. She is frustrated by your need to control (even if your ideas are good). If the path to resolution is to preserves your marriage, there is a tremendous need for open discussion, understanding and compromise on both sides. Your wife is not your staff.

The Flat Man
traveling the globe in an envelope
Reply
traveling the globe in an envelope
Reply
post #5 of 122
Whenever there is a big lifestyle change like that there is bound to be both a power struggle and emotional turmoil for a while.

My wife has a similar inner monologue, which can spin off into the weeds if I don't notice (particularly if she starts talking to recently divorced women, who go into the "men suck" rant).

What worked for my wife and I is that we went to a weekend workshop on "Amago couples therapy".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat Stanley View Post

From what I see, you are a control freak. You married someone either lacking or suppressing their leadership skills. Woman wanting more control were incompatible with you. Your wife's inability or unwillingness to lead now frustrates you. She is frustrated by your need to control (even if your ideas are good). If the path to resolution is to preserves your marriage, there is a tremendous need for open discussion, understanding and compromise on both sides. Your wife is not your staff.

The Flat Man

huh? He should absolutely have control of the things he took over when she started working - she is trying to get him to do the laundry, etc, her way, so it seems to me that the relationship is the reverse of your analysis. The bit about the detention slips was her business, though - but she seems a bit hard headed about it - the best way would be to get an email list of parents or a phone tree or something.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #6 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat Stanley View Post

From what I see, you are a control freak. You married someone either lacking or suppressing their leadership skills. Woman wanting more control were incompatible with you. Your wife's inability or unwillingness to lead now frustrates you. She is frustrated by your need to control (even if your ideas are good). If the path to resolution is to preserves your marriage, there is a tremendous need for open discussion, understanding and compromise on both sides. Your wife is not your staff.

The Flat Man

That's really insightful.
post #7 of 122
People are often crabby when they are losing weight, whether it's intentional or not. You should find a way to subtly change the diet, but since these things seem to be different for everyone, you'll have to figure out what you need to do. Nine times out of ten, replacing sugar with apples/bananas/etc has a great, positive affect on attitude.

It sounds crazy, but it's easy and worth a try if you can swing it.
Cat: the other white meat
Reply
Cat: the other white meat
Reply
post #8 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Whenever there is a big lifestyle change like that there is bound to be both a power struggle and emotional turmoil for a while.

My wife has a similar inner monologue, which can spin off into the weeds if I don't notice (particularly if she starts talking to recently divorced women, who go into the "men suck" rant).

What worked for my wife and I is that we went to a weekend workshop on "Amago couples therapy".



huh? He should absolutely have control of the things he took over when she started working - she is trying to get him to do the laundry, etc, her way, so it seems to me that the relationship is the reverse of your analysis. The bit about the detention slips was her business, though - but she seems a bit hard headed about it - the best way would be to get an email list of parents or a phone tree or something.



The controlling personality goes back far before these events. It's the root cause for his wife not being able or willing to maintain an organized house. Look at the tone of the post. It is what I would expect of a parants towards a child or a manager towards an employee far below his or her level.
traveling the globe in an envelope
Reply
traveling the globe in an envelope
Reply
post #9 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

That's really insightful.

It is cold analysis Shawn. It wasn't meant to be in an inspirational card.
traveling the globe in an envelope
Reply
traveling the globe in an envelope
Reply
post #10 of 122
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by @_@ Artman View Post

Sex?

Dude, buy me a drink first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat Stanley View Post

From what I see, you are a control freak. You married someone either lacking or suppressing their leadership skills. Woman wanting more control were incompatible with you. Your wife's inability or unwillingness to lead now frustrates you. She is frustrated by your need to control (even if your ideas are good). If the path to resolution is to preserves your marriage, there is a tremendous need for open discussion, understanding and compromise on both sides. Your wife is not your staff.

The Flat Man

Hahahahaha...I am control freak who is upset that my wife won't control and lead.... interesting.

Even while laughing at it, I appreciate the window into a VERY different mind than my own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Whenever there is a big lifestyle change like that there is bound to be both a power struggle and emotional turmoil for a while.

My wife has a similar inner monologue, which can spin off into the weeds if I don't notice (particularly if she starts talking to recently divorced women, who go into the "men suck" rant).

What worked for my wife and I is that we went to a weekend workshop on "Amago couples therapy".

Got a link? I can fully relate to the inner monologue being tainted by nearby divorced woman bit. I friend of my got divorced in part I believe because she took a new job, her new friends there were either single or divorced and bam... scary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

People are often crabby when they are losing weight, whether it's intentional or not. You should find a way to subtly change the diet, but since these things seem to be different for everyone, you'll have to figure out what you need to do. Nine times out of ten, replacing sugar with apples/bananas/etc has a great, positive affect on attitude.

It sounds crazy, but it's easy and worth a try if you can swing it.

Diet, I hadn't thought of that. Although I've actually been taking the household away from the sweets and stuff with my shopping. She could be crabby over the lack of sweats though too. Good thoughts!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Nick I give you credit for opening up here honestly with our AI family. Not everyone would feel comfortable laying out all the details of life as you have done in a brief and compact "get to the point" way. I am sorry to hear that there are strains in your family because as you report your wife is not happy. I hear that you report that individual metrics under this configuration of her working has created a better situation for household finances and her health etc. I will have to say that I do not have an answer other than to say pray about this and have constructive conversations with your wife to explore options and in the process you may discover if the situation as it is can be tweeked or if there will have to be major changes. As long as you both agree to do what is best for the entire family while being understanding of each other's needs I believe you can come to resolution of this dilema.

I am sorry you are facing these difficulties.

Email me anytime.

Fellows

Prayers with Fellowship or sex with Artman... hmmm... such tough choices. I think I'll take the...... prayers.

We have a good relationship Fellows. I'm just very puzzled by this bit here and wanted more than one brain on it.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #11 of 122
Quote:
Prayers with Fellowship or sex with Artman... hmmm... such tough choices. I think I'll take the...... prayers.

We have a good relationship Fellows. I'm just very puzzled by this bit here and wanted more than one brain on it.

Hey I wish you the BEST man! I think it is smart what Splinemodel mentioned with the process of weight loss. He is right as I am sure many who have ever been in the weight loss process can tell you if they are honest.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #12 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat Stanley View Post

The controlling personality goes back far before these events. It's the root cause for his wife not being able or willing to maintain an organized house. Look at the tone of the post. It is what I would expect of a parants towards a child or a manager towards an employee far below his or her level.

I don't think I could disagree with you more - part of what a life partner helps you with is demanding that you get your shit together on occasion (which I have been both on the giving and receiving end of, as I am sure most married people have).

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Got a link?

I was wrong about the spelling, it is Imago

http://gettingtheloveyouwant.com/

We have tried a bunch of things, and this is the one that worked the best for us.
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
45 2a3 300b 211 845 833
Reply
post #13 of 122
First, make sure you give her a 10-second passionate kiss every day when she comes home from work. You don't have to have sex if you're not in the mood (or if the "spark" has faded), but you do need to give her a kiss to make sure she feels loved.

Second, Sundays should be yours. As a family. Make a plan in advance (by Thursday) and tell her what you'll be doing on Sunday. Give up Sunday football (Tivo it if you have to). If you go out and do something together every Sunday then the laundry won't be an issue.

But if what you want to do on Sunday is sit in front of the TV, and expect her to sit next to you, then I don't have much sympathy.
post #14 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Prayers with Fellowship or sex with Artman... hmmm... such tough choices. I think I'll take the...... prayers.

We have a good relationship Fellows. I'm just very puzzled by this bit here and wanted more than one brain on it.

Well, replace Fellowship or myself with your wife. Try either one. Hey try both ideas at the same time.

I'll admit I was being blunt. But it is a personal question and thought it would break the ice...aw shit, now your gonna take THAT the wrong way.

Quote:
“I'm at the age where food has taken the place of sex in my life. In fact, I've just had a mirror put over my kitchen table.” - Rodney Dangerfield
post #15 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

What are your thoughts?

Honestly, my first thought was that I hope she really doesn't know about this 'internet' thing, or this is going to get much, much worse...
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
Reply
post #16 of 122
e#s is right.

I think this is probably partly about the routine your wife had established for years, partly about the loss of that routine, partly about power.

One thing to consider if that her self-described misery is being described out that irrationality. Certainly, she may feel miserable. But that doesn't mean the misery is systemic or enduring.

This is really Machiavellian, but perhaps you could, over the course of a few weeks, cede something back to her and feign inability?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #17 of 122
ok, you asked for OPINIONS... right?

Let her quit and go back to being "just" a mommy.
It almost sounds like that's what she'd enjoy. Perhaps she went back to work because she felt "guilty" about not contributing to the cash flow? I dunno.

But the old saying: "If momma's not happy, then nobody's happy." has been proven true over and over.

You've got kids?... women can be cut some slack and allowed to put on a few pounds after the whole child-bearing process. My wife's not as small as she was 4 kids ago either, but I can live with that, and so can she. Of course, it's not to the point that it'd have an effect on her health... then I'd maybe say something... from a distance... and from behind cover... and with a clear path of escape.

Just because the kids are in school during the day doesn't mean she needs to be at work. Especially if (as you said) you can live on your income alone.

Oh, and perhaps you need to lighten up on the whole "organization and neatness" thing ... again, with kids in the house, you just have to accept that things are gonna be a bit "disshelved". (is that the right word/spelling?) We rarely get to see the actual surface of our kitchen counters 'cause they're full of papers, bags, purses, projects, they're the science lab some days, the art classroom on others, extra "desk-space" on the days they just need to spread out. Accept that things aren't gonna look like a museum and take your wife to the bedroom for some "exercise"
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #18 of 122
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
Reply
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
Reply
post #19 of 122
Well, one thing is that there is this usual marital bickering (or whatever) stuff.
You seem level-headed about this.

The paradox is this: most indications on your side are that this is good for her.
She does not seem to think so.

She may be doing it just to please you, and as such resentment may be building up.

So,
A = Things you think are good for her and generally know are good for people
B = Things she feels she has achieved, is comfortable with, feels good about

The proposed solution is see where A intersects B.

Kinda like you can have your cake and eat it. If I do about 15minutes on the treadmill
(running/walking, quite simple stuff), then my McDonalds McFlurry Oreo tastes that
much better. In fact after excercise, in the same day, I find many many snacks way
too sugary.

Short point is, there need not be excessive or unnecessary pain for long term
sustainable pleasure and stability.

Though you have been quiet on that front, sexual enjoyment is very important for
marriages particularly those with young children. Er... Let me rephrase that. If a
married man and woman have young children, the husband and wife should ensure
their sexual relationships are still enjoyable, intimate, "exciting"... etc. But y'all
probably know all that anyways.
post #20 of 122
Thread Starter 
First I want to thank all of you for the various advice you have offered. I posted this at AppleInsider and AppleNova and let me tell you the quality of replies has been dramatically different at one versus the other.

I also have something to confess and I feel very terrible about this given how much work some of you put into your replies. I feel truly horrible and terrible. I lied.

What was true is that I did stay home on a Friday to go to the kids little award assemblies and that this was the first time I have ever done that. What was not true is my wife and I having any problems listed here. I made it up just to see what the reactions would be if the roles were reversed from what normally is seen as happening when the woman goes back to work. It is true that she is going back to work and I did volunteer to take on the roles I listed but I am far from perfect. She gladly helps out while I am learning. I help her with her newly acquired job. This was more of an elaborate experiment about role reversals.

You can blame Spike Lee. I love his movie the 25th Hour. Actually I don’t know if I like that or the Terence Blanchard soundtrack which just kicks major butt. Eitherway Spike made that movie and cast Edward Norton in the role of sympathetic drug dealer. He spends the entire movie showing you this guy is a person and that you care for him. At the end, which is perfect, he leaves you to ponder whether the Norton character should run from the law.

I have no proof but I always have suspected that Spike Lee took and made that film to poke at a more subtle type of racism. I’ve wondered how many people would be desiring for the Norton character to run if he were black, had cornrows and was wearing a wifebeater shirt.

So what I did here is undertook a similar process only with sexism. I designed a man who can handle both the first and second(home) shift perfectly. I designed a woman who is a bit controlling, appears to be questionable in motivation, and might not be able to handle one shift well be it at home or at work. In reality while I believe both parties work hard to divide labor in ways they feel work best for both on them within the relationship, we are often told by the media that it is the women who are superwomen while men are lazy, controlling and basically sit at home on their butts. I reversed this to see what you would recommend.

The results were definitely a bit enlightening.

First kudos to Faust.(AN) Faust is a woman and amazingly enough the only person who was close to judging both parties equally. She was the one closest to saying, that the woman should get over herself, get her act together and pull her weight. There were also a few people that said sorry to her about it and hope it all just works out. They weren’t judgmental against any of the parties and just hoped for the best. They may have offered a resource where help could be found.

The other responses were to say the least, a bit interesting.

First we have the overachievers are really controlling repressive jerks responses. They made the “superman” (one person actually said super-hero) someone who got off on control and repression. They declared that in order to feel strong, they were intentionally finding a way to undermine and make someone feel weak. They declared that the person viewed as doing less was not to be dictated to by the person doing more and that the person doing less wasn’t really responsible for doing less since they were being controlled.

We had the affection crowd in a second group of responses. The person doing less was really doing less because they felt unloved by the person doing more. It was the obligation of the person doing more to find some way to provide more affection, self-esteem or basically fill the hole. So I think about this with the role reversal. If a man hasn’t gotten the laundry done, the woman should give him a ten second passionate kiss, a day at the spa, hire someone to do it, more sex, etc. It is an interesting dynamic.

Then we have the twisted logic/Machiavellian responses. These consisted of feigning incompetence or creating a false area of helpfulness to make both parties feel better since they were now more equitable. They ranged from using resources to hire unnecessary help to pretending to be unable to handle some aspects of the second shift.

A few questions/observations and then you can all go stab your Trumpetman/Trumptman voodoo dolls.

How do you think you would have responded if the sexes were reversed?

Should a woman really dumb herself down or feign incompetence in order to make the man feel better about what he can or cannot do?

If a relationship has become unbalanced with a woman working harder than the man without getting a return, is that woman really the oppressor instead of the victim?

Finally if a woman can accomplish both home and career aka be a superwoman while the man cannot, is she under the obligation to love him in a limited role, tolerate it, pay for it if necessary and just reward him with more sex, affection and spa visits, etc. until he manages to catch up. Even if he doesn’t catch up should she undertake all these actions just to make him feel better about what she can do and he cannot.

I have to give some major kudos to AN folks. There was a little discussion over there about the length of the initial post and some back and forth about how it felt a bit “processed” because you just don’t type original posts that long though actually concise as others noted into a browser.

Indeed you don’t and I was sweating the thinking right there. However the reply about the text editor made it go away.

Thank you all for your insights. They have been very interesting. I now ask that you take the sex roles and reverse them and seriously question yourself as to whether your response would be the same. I suspect that if there was a superwoman married to a man of questionable ability and motivation, that most would tell her to kick him to the curb. Even with acceptable effort or attempts they would say he certainly doesn’t deserve EXTRA affection and attention. I suspect many would declare him unworthy of any affection or attention due to the laziness we know he must have.

Finally I would say to you that if you are a man, you don’t need to achieve X or accomplish Y to be deserving of love. We give women love and we tell men they must earn love. I’m telling you that you don’t have to earn it, and you just deserve it. You deserve time with your kids, with your family and for yourself. Society sees you as a checkbook and you need to fight that perception. You aren’t a checkbook but a human and thus deserve what all humans deserve.

Thanks,
Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #21 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

You deserve time with your kids, with your family and for yourself. Society sees you as a checkbook and you need to fight that perception. You arent a checkbook but a human and thus deserve what all humans deserve.

Single-payer universal health care?
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #22 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


I also have something to confess and I feel very terrible about this given how much work some of you put into your replies. I feel truly horrible and terrible. I lied.

Nick you really do have too much time on your hands. You should get out and go walking, clean the car, do something other than play a stupid game like this.

I don't think the average AI poster here likes to be jacked with like you have done.



Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #23 of 122
I'm glad I stayed out of it.
post #24 of 122
Sounds like second thoughts about posting private information on the interwebs.

post #25 of 122
So your victim complex is so profound that you had to post a bunch of made-up stuff on multiple forums just to feed it?

That is pretty messed up.
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
Reply
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
Reply
post #26 of 122
I would have just explained the situation to a moderator (regrets about posting personal information on the internet) and politely asked them to delete the thread.
post #27 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Sounds like second thoughts about posting private information on the interwebs.


I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #28 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

....Finally I would say to you that if you are a man, you dont need to achieve X or accomplish Y to be deserving of love. We give women love and we tell men they must earn love. Im telling you that you dont have to earn it, and you just deserve it. You deserve time with your kids, with your family and for yourself. Society sees you as a checkbook and you need to fight that perception. You arent a checkbook but a human and thus deserve what all humans deserve.....

Interesting... society sees me as a checkbook.
Kinda true, actually. But there are stronger women
I have encountered and that I like who are willing to
earn their own way. They usually excercise more or
are generally slimmer than average weight.
post #29 of 122
edit . . .

hey ho, who cares?

post #30 of 122
I'm sure this is all just a continuation of our "thought experiment"

Trumpt must be furiously taking notes as we speak!
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
Reply
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
Reply
post #31 of 122
They're giving it to him good at AN.
post #32 of 122
Yes, and despite his protestations to the contrary, the follow-up post at AN makes it pretty clear (to me) that trumpt's really not sorry at all. Sorry in the "I'm sorry if you're hurt, but this is what I thought I had to do to get what I want" sense rather than the "I've made a serious error in judgment, I won't ever do something like this again, and I regret having done what I did in the first place" actual apology.
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
Reply
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
Reply
post #33 of 122
Thread Starter 
You are absolutely right I never said I what I did was an error in judgement. I don't consider it to be such and wouldn't change what I did.

I find your and Shawn's little bitter tag team replies a tad funny and sad at the same time. Clearly my post caused you to confront something within yourself that you aren't comfortable with and as such you are going well beyond expressing yourself. Flounder didn't even share or reply and here you are comdemning over multiple posts. I suppose you are the unvictimized victim.

Clearly you both have issues with seeing males as non-controlling, non-oppressors, or whatever other load of crap you probably have paid good money to learn in college. There really can't be any other good reason for both of you harboring the level of animosity you have about my non-problem. Others indicated they thought they had shared personal informtion although getting a haircut, going to a spa or conference or whatever really isn't deep personal information but regardless I apologized for what they felt about their sharing.

You two as far as I can see have shared nothing and harbor an awful lot of anger. So clearly this made you discover something about yourself and you don't like what you see. I'm not going to apologize for that or take it back. You can live with it.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #34 of 122
Trumpt, I didn't do a whole lot more than skim your initial and "gotcha" postings, and if you think I put any thought into whatever male/female control/attitudes, or whatever the hell it was you were "investigating" (and what that was is wholly unclear) then you are sadly mistaken. I haven't considered it enough to have any opinion on your theories (whatever it is they may be).

What offends me, as someone with a degree in epidemiology, is the whole bizzarre concoction you've made under the guise of conducting an "experiment"

If you are so interested in your "research" I would suggest

1. Getting the appropriate degree that would teach you how to, or at the very least doing several months worth of reading on your own, so you can
A. Have a clue of how to do research in an ethical manner
B. Have a clue of how to do research in a scientifically rigorous manner

2. Apply #1, and go and do some apropriate research, write it up, and post it here. I'm sure we'll all be happy to peruse it.
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
Reply
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
Reply
post #35 of 122
Nick. You really, really need to go on a weekend retreat called Men Together: We Are Warriors in a sequoia forest somewhere. Get some Iron John. You live in California, right? Go on one. Learn to take some responsibility, dude. Seriously. Your Warrior needs to have a pow-wow with your Lover.

You painted a picture of two really charmless, unsympathetic people who can't compromise or don't love each other enough to indulge each-other's foolishnesses anymore. I don't really care if it was a thought experiment or not, it says far more about your own personal insecurities and experience than it does about gender roles in society, at least in my experience.

Send some PMs to all the AppleNova people whose generosity you piddled all over and stay here starting threads saying 'X is Evil' couched in terms that let you deny responsibility for the suggestion.

And go on a course where men can learn how to be men. Take it on the chin.
post #36 of 122
Thread Starter 
Enjoy being offended about that which you didn't read and haven't considered.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #37 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Enjoy being offended about that which you didn't read and haven't considered.

I am offended by your process. The content is irrelevant.
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
Reply
A good brain ain't diddly if you don't have the facts
Reply
post #38 of 122
Thread Starter 
Oh then enjoy bring offended about a process which you didn't read and haven't considered.

I think you are right. That reads much better.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #39 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Enjoy being offended about that which you didn't read and haven't considered.

I read it, carefully, and began to write a response to it.

I decided not to post my response (actually, I gave up pretty quickly), even though it was encouraging and cheekily 'sexist', because I don't know you, or your hypothetical wife, and it's really unguessable what goes on behind closed doors, I've never been married and my advice would have been internet nonsense, and not really useful. It was along the lines of 'compromise and selective indulgence save relationships.'

Me, I'm pretty pissed off because I thought you were being honest and I thought about you sort of kindly for a day, and now I know you were beating your men are victims hobbyhorse again. It's pretty lame.
post #40 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post


Me, I'm pretty pissed off because I thought you were being honest and I thought about you sort of kindly for a day, and now I know you were beating your men are victims hobbyhorse again. It's pretty lame.

I was irritated with this game as well. Why? First of all my sister is having problems in her marriage and I have been there for her and it takes a toll on me as well being family and all. Some of my neighbors are having money issues and I have tried to encourage them during their hard times (their money problems are due to medical costs). Then to see Nick having "stuff" going on I wanted to extend to him my friendship in time of need also.

For the rug to be jerked out and Nick saying.... I lied to you all

It pissed me off. Being a Christian I forgive Nick right away but my goodness I hope Nick does not do this kind of stuff in the future. It is not cool to jerk around people in some kind of trick.

And Nick don't get on Shawn or any other posters here as if this is about some kind of fault on their behalf. This entire thread is your doing Nick. OWN that and move on.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: AppleOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › Paradox of paradoxes