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O2 sweetens service plans for UK iPhone customers - Page 2

post #41 of 76
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And I think people are more inclined to make use of it, not because they necessarilly want to, but are paying for it anyway so might as well do so.

This makes no sense.

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The Google maps application would munch through a lot of data and I'm pretty sure that people are likely to be playing with these features.

Yes this is evidenced by iPhone traffic to Google and Google services has surpassed Windows and Blackberry combined. Windows holds 11% and Blackberry 10% of the worldwide mobile market. iPhone is only 2%.

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I live in a major city, so I can't believe for a second that the edge signal is anything short of perfect in the centre of town.

Not necessarily there is likely a lot of interference in the center of town.

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The rendering speed might make up for edge in comparison to other edge and basic 3G phones, but certainly can't come anywhere near to an HSDPA enabled device (in my experience).

EDGE is slower in raw speed to HSDPA. That is a fact. But more plays into rendering a website other than wireless bandwidth. The rendering power of the web browser software, the speed of the phones processor and graphics chips if the phone even has a specialized graphics chip. The design of the website and how easy it can be rendered by a phones modest abilities.
post #42 of 76
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This makes no sense.

OK let me clarify. Customers have no option but to pay for data with their iPhone contract. Therefore, they are going to be using it whether they wanted data or not. When someone buys a Symbian or Windows Mobile smartphone, chances are they will have a choice as to whether they take data or not. My guess is that most people won't want it, so hence Symbian and Windows Mobile phones having a smaller data share. Let's assume for instance that for every Symbian phone sold, the customer had to take out a data plan. The result would be that Symbian would take a massive slice of total data usage.

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EDGE is slower in raw speed to HSDPA. That is a fact. But more plays into rendering a website other than wireless bandwidth. The rendering power of the web browser software, the speed of the phones processor and graphics chips if the phone even has a specialized graphics chip. The design of the website and how easy it can be rendered by a phones modest abilities.

Yes I understand this perfectly. The problem is the iPhone is starved of data to actually process. It's all very well and good that it can crunch through a torrent of data, but it's never going to be fast if the data is only trickling through. It's crying out for a great fat pipe of data like an HSDPA connection, and then it would browse more like it does when connected through wifi.
post #43 of 76
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OK let me clarify. Customers have no option but to pay for data with their iPhone contract. Therefore, they are going to be using it whether they wanted data or not.

The reason this makes no sense is because a consumer has hundreds of phone options and consciously chooses the iPhone. You go into it knowing the iPhone is data centric and comes with an unlimited data plan. This one of the major selling points.

The majority of people are not buying an iPhone and saying "wells since I have no choice but to take the data plan I might as well use it." Most people are buying the iPhone and saying "I want to buy the iPhone because it has an unlimited data plan and lots of apps that make use of that data."

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The problem is the iPhone is starved of data to actually process. It's all very well and good that it can crunch through a torrent of data, but it's never going to be fast if the data is only trickling through.

Starved for data is bit dramatic. But yes it will be much faster when it has 3G which will be coming later this year.

The most important part of all of this is actual real world use. In real world use the iPhone is being used as an internet device more than any other mobile gadget on the market.
post #44 of 76
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Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

apple gets a cut - they get the cut from China mobile and from all the other future deals they sign which reflect the strong foot traffic generated.


Suuure, I can totally see that:

Jobs: Oh, and in this deal, we also get 5 bucks a month for every new subscriber you sign up that we think you may have gotten due to increased foot traffic. Even if they didn't purchase an iPhone.
China Mobile: Bwhahahaha! You are so FUNNY, Steve. We love your American sense of humor.
Jobs: I was serious.
China Mobile: The door is that way. Don't grab anything off the lunch cart on your way out.



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post #45 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Well we have to look at it in its full context. The Euro market is a mature market with many advanced smartphones. Many of these phones are given free with 18 month tariffs. The iPhone was sold at a premium with a higher tariff than most phones.

Sorry Teno, but the horse has pretty much left the barn on that one. When even AI itself is routinely reporting:

Thus far, sales of the iPhone in the UK -- like that of Germany and France -- have underperformed.

... against a backdrop of missed sales targets in every Euro launch country, well, yeah, I think its safe to say Euro sales are slow. Not "woulda coulda shoulda". No one cares.

Euro sales are slow, so let's fix this. The price/plan changes are a great first step.


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By function the iPhone is not hampered by 3G in reality if at all only by hype. O2 reports by percentage iPhone use more data than all other smartphones combined.

You know better than that, Teno. As you've been told, in Europe, the alternative to 3G is often crappy GPRS, aka dial-up speed, even slower than EDGE. And yes, I'd expect that iPhone users would use more data than competitors even still, because Safari is a better user experience than your typical smartphone minibrowser... but what you're leaving out is HOW MUCH MORE data iPhone users would use if they had 3G.

Safari + dial-up speed connection = decent user experience
Safari + high-speed connection = really good user experience.

If Jobs says of EDGE, "You wish it was faster", well, gee, I wonder what he'd say of much-slower GPRS? \

Teno, even you yourself have admitted that the iPhone would sell better if it had 3G, so it's kinda funny to see you backpedaling even now against the backdrop of slow Euro iPhone sales. Trying to downplay the fact that a significant number of Euro customers really want it on the iPhone at this point is silly.

Again, let's fix this. Plan changes are a major part of it, and so is changing the feature set to what the Euros really want. I'm sure that at this point, Apple wants a 3G iPhone out sooner rather than later.


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I'm talking about the major carriers. There is little chance anyone is moving their iPhone to a tiny regional carrier.

What you may be unaware of is that even most tiny regional carriers have roaming agreements with the large national carriers- meaning that their customers do have national coverage- and often better prices than the nationals too.

There's actually quite a good chance that a few ppl will be moving their iPhones to a small regional, it just won't be a lot of ppl. ATT and T-Mobile scarfed up all the GSM regionals of any size.

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post #46 of 76
Quote:
Sorry Teno, but the horse has pretty much left the barn on that one. When even AI itself is routinely reporting:Thus far, sales of the iPhone in the UK -- like that of Germany and France -- have underperformed.

Looking beyond only sales numbers and sensationalism. While not phenomenal its cleat that everyone is satisfied with last quarters results. The tariff adjustment is more about continuing future iPhone sales.

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Teno, even you yourself have admitted that the iPhone would sell better if it had 3G, so it's kinda funny to see you backpedaling even now against the backdrop of slow Euro iPhone sales. Trying to downplay the fact that a significant number of Euro customers really want it on the iPhone at this point is silly.

I agreed that some number of people will not buy an iPhone without 3G. I've also said I don't believe that number is large. There is no backpedaling. I've always said cost is the main factor limiting iPhone sales not 3G. Which is why O2 has made this adjustment.

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There's actually quite a good chance that a few ppl will be moving their iPhones to a small regional, it just won't be a lot of ppl. ATT and T-Mobile scarfed up all the GSM regionals of any size.

You are just being argumentative. It'll be more than zero. But such a small number as to be mostly inconsequential.
post #47 of 76
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Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Looking beyond only sales numbers and sensationalism.

There's no real sensationalism... there were targets for the iPhone in Europe, and they were missed. The end. The problem doesn't need to be spun, it needs to be fixed. Its good to see that they're finally starting to do that.


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While not phenomenal its cleat that everyone is satisfied with last quarters results.

Not the European results. It was very telling that in the earnings conference call that Cook and Oppenheimer offered absolutely no concrete sales figures for Europe.

And of course, last quarters results are only half the story. Apple stock got absolutely hammered, in part due to the slowing US economy, but also because of weak next quarter guidance. And Europe is part of that story.


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I agreed that some number of people will not buy an iPhone without 3G. I've also said I don't believe that number is large.

Denial springs eternal, eh Teno? Tsk.


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You are just being argumentative. It'll be more than zero. But such a small number as to be mostly inconsequential.

Argumentative? No. Just accurate.

Honestly, if there was a small regional in my area, I'd consider going with them. They can be a surprisingly good deal sometimes.

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post #48 of 76
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Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Suuure, I can totally see that:

Jobs: Oh, and in this deal, we also get 5 bucks a month for every new subscriber you sign up that we think you may have gotten due to increased foot traffic. Even if they didn't purchase an iPhone.
China Mobile: Bwhahahaha! You are so FUNNY, Steve. We love your American sense of humor.
Jobs: I was serious.
China Mobile: The door is that way. Don't grab anything off the lunch cart on your way out.

I'll reply as if you really don't understand... I think you were just kidding, but just in case...

When China mobile sees that every operator that Apple signs up with has a blockbuster year the next year, and in fact those operators actually come out as SAY that it's thanks to the extra foot traffic from the iPhone, they will have a much easier time agreeing to any terms.

So no, there's no $5 per month fee, but when Apple says oh, we want 30% of the revenue from iphone users, China mobile might just crunch the numbers on how many TOTAL new customers the iPhone will bring them (including new customers who do not use the iPhone) and figure that Apple is really only getting 15% of the revenue from the new users it BRINGS.

See?

You really think that a company is not going to factor in that kind of information when negotiating the iphone?
post #49 of 76
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Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

So no, there's no $5 per month fee, but when Apple says oh, we want 30% of the revenue from iphone users, China mobile might just crunch the numbers on how many TOTAL new customers the iPhone will bring them (including new customers who do not use the iPhone) and figure that Apple is really only getting 15% of the revenue from the new users it BRINGS.

See?

You really think that a company is not going to factor in that kind of information when negotiating the iphone?


The problem is that it's incredibly hard to quantify that kind of information. Sure, part of T-Mobile Germany's subscriber increase may have been due to iPhone-generated foot traffic, even if few iPhones were actually bought. But... how do you quantify that? Is it possible that T-MG would've had a good quarter even without Apple? What percentage of T-MG's new subscribers were due to Apple? Got any hard figures on that, hmm?

You don't. Because no one does, likely.

I'm not saying that it can't play a role in negotiations. But I wouldn't overstate it.

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post #50 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

The problem is that it's incredibly hard to quantify that kind of information. Sure, part of T-Mobile Germany's subscriber increase may have been due to iPhone-generated foot traffic, even if few iPhones were actually bought. But... how do you quantify that? Is it possible that T-MG would've had a good quarter even without Apple? What percentage of T-MG's new subscribers were due to Apple? Got any hard figures on that, hmm?

You don't. Because no one does, likely.

I'm not saying that it can't play a role in negotiations. But I wouldn't overstate it.

Hard to quantify? Sure. But if you don't think Apple has teams of accountants with Ivy league degrees working with ATT, Tmo, o2 and Orange to come up with numbers, you're crazy. And you can be sure they have hard numbers to show. Statistics is a science, and you can bet Apple has the numbers in hand when they go to China and all other comers.
post #51 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

Hard to quantify? Sure. But if you don't think Apple has teams of accountants with Ivy league degrees working with ATT, Tmo, o2 and Orange to come up with numbers, you're crazy. And you can be sure they have hard numbers to show. Statistics is a science, and you can bet Apple has the numbers in hand when they go to China and all other comers.


But that's just it... they're not hard numbers. As far as the 'foot traffic effect' goes, they're what Apple thinks the numbers are, or rather, wants to think they are. It's pretty easy for the carriers Apple is negotiating with to say, "Well, we think differently. We think you're worth 'x' to us in that department."

It helps Apple, but not as much as hard iPhone sales and activation figures.

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post #52 of 76
Quote:
There's no real sensationalism... there were targets for the iPhone in Europe, and they were missed. The end. The problem doesn't need to be spun, it needs to be fixed. Its good to see that they're finally starting to do that.

Those sales projections are only so important, mostly bragging rights. Orange has sold over 100,000 iPhones by now and O2 has sold over 200,000 by now. Everyone knows this and is why the financial markets don't care if they hit the exact target by the exact date.

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Not the European results. It was very telling that in the earnings conference call that Cook and Oppenheimer offered absolutely no concrete sales figures for Europe.

Probably because Germany hadn't officially released its figures at that point.

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And of course, last quarters results are only half the story. Apple stock got absolutely hammered, in part due to the slowing US economy, but also because of weak next quarter guidance. And Europe is part of that story.

iPhone sales at this point are an extremely small part of that.


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Denial springs eternal, eh Teno? Tsk

No, just you taking what I've said out of context as you do to confuse the issue when you don't have solid argument.
post #53 of 76
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When China mobile sees that every operator that Apple signs up with has a blockbuster year the next year, and in fact those operators actually come out as SAY that it's thanks to the extra foot traffic from the iPhone, they will have a much easier time agreeing to any terms.

I think what would be more valuable to a Chinese carrier is the fact that their is such demand for unofficial iPhones in China. Chinese consumers are willing to use the iPhone inspite of the fact that they have to hack the Chinese language on to it.
post #54 of 76
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Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

It helps Apple, but not as much as hard iPhone sales and activation figures.
.

Good, then we agree.
post #55 of 76
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Originally Posted by mrochester View Post

0

Yeah it's a nice surprise for those of you who were already happy with the allowance you received. But O2 aren't doing this to please their existing customers, they are doing this to attract new customers. Kudos for them for finally getting the message!

Whilst I agree in general, if they weren't worried about their excisting customers, then they wouldn't have applied it to their existing customers. We signed a deal that said 200 minutes and 200 texts, we wouldn't have a leg to stand on to demand the new deal without cancelling our old contract and buying into a new one. I give O2 a lot of credit for thinking about the older customers on this one.
post #56 of 76
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Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Those sales projections are only so important, mostly bragging rights. Orange has sold over 100,000 iPhones by now and O2 has sold over 200,000 by now. Everyone knows this and is why the financial markets don't care if they hit the exact target by the exact date.

So, if Apple misses its stated 10 million goal, that 'won't really matter' either? C'mon Teno, get real. It's much more than bragging rights... a company doesn't set goals or make projections or give guidance just for s***s and grins. And when it misses those goals, that's a sign to investors and potential investors that there is a problem there. The stock usually gets punished accordingly. It is quite a big deal, actually.


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Probably because Germany hadn't officially released its figures at that point.

Please. Even you probably don't believe that. If there was a positive story on Euro sales to tell (beyond the standard fallback: "We're very happy..." ) Cook and Oppenheimer would have been remiss not to tell it... with figures.


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iPhone sales at this point are an extremely small part of that.

Investors don't see it that way. The iPhone is one of Apple's three major businesses: iPod, iPhone, and Mac. And much of the growth in the coming year was supposed to come from the iPhone business.


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No, just you taking what I've said out of context as you do to confuse the issue when you don't have solid argument.

More like, regarding 3G and the iPhone feature set, I'm just shrugging and laughing as you consign yourself to membership in the Flat Earth Society. It isn't like you haven't heard from of our Euro friends again and again and again about the importance of 3G and MMS to that market, not to mention the many news articles on the subject.

The new plans will help a lot, and I've advocated Apple address their pricing issues over there, but that's not the whole problem in Europe. Having the product rely on GPRS for its Internet experience in many cases and in many places is a joke, and a pretty bad one. As is the lack of MMS.

If you can't or won't understand that, my condolences. I think Apple finally gets it, though, and is literally counting the days until they get a 3G iPhone out there. Preferably 16 GB, natch.

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post #57 of 76
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Originally Posted by cameronj View Post

Good, then we agree.


Yeah, pretty much.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall during those conversations, though. The fencing between Apple's and the carrier's experts must be fascinating.

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post #58 of 76
Quote:
So, if Apple misses its stated 10 million goal, that 'won't really matter' either? C'mon Teno, get real. It's much more than bragging rights...

I'm more speaking specifically of O2 and Orange sales projections. Not all sales projections ever. Selling tens of thousands over weeks is entirely different from tens of millions over a year.

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Please. Even you probably don't believe that. If there was a positive story on Euro sales to tell (beyond the standard fallback: "We're very happy..." ) Cook and Oppenheimer would have been remiss not to tell it... with figures.

Well they said they are happy. Healthy profits from the past quarter. What evidence do you have to contradict that?

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It isn't like you haven't heard from of our Euro friends again and again and again about the importance of 3G and MMS to that market, not to mention the many news articles on the subject.

Yes they talk about 3G. But in reality only a small percentage even use data and make much use of 3G.

I cannot find it now. But Nokia conducted a survey of what features phone used most. At the top of the list was e-mail, MMS wasn't even on the list.
post #59 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I'm more speaking specifically of O2 and Orange sales projections. Not all sales projections ever. Selling tens of thousands over weeks is entirely different from tens of millions over a year.

Unfortunately, those matter too, especially considering that most agree that they were conservative, lowball goals. And they missed them even still. \


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Well they said they are happy. Healthy profits from the past quarter.

LOL, I told you "we're happy" is standard boilerplate, and you go and go quote it anyway. Too funny. C'mon Teno, you're playing dumb here.

And, as I already told you, last quarter's profits are only half the story... the other half is future growth and future guidance. Investors didn't seem too happy with the Apple story in those departments, which is much of why the stock is down roughly 35 percent from a month ago. Argh.


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Yes they talk about 3G. But in reality only a small percentage even use data and make much use of 3G.

I cannot find it now. But Nokia conducted a survey of what features phone used most. At the top of the list was e-mail, MMS wasn't even on the list.

Teno, as a stockholder, all I can say is, I am very happy that you aren't in charge of Apple product decisions. \ You still can't seem to get that Europe is a very different market from the US. Asia will be more different still. A product that does well in the US doesn't necessarily fly elsewhere.

But even beyond that, you seem ignorant of the fundamental nature of the iPhone. Data use on phones has been low in general because the user experience has been bad previously. The iPhone changes that... better data/internet user experience equals you want to use data and browse the 'net on the iPhone.

And if you're gonna do that, are you gonna want to do it at 3G (broadband) speed, or GPRS (dialup) speed?

Yeah... that's what I thought.


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post #60 of 76
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Unfortunately, those matter too, especially considering that most agree that they were conservative, lowball goals. And they missed them even still.

The market didn't punish them for it. So its a nonissue.

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And, as I already told you, last quarter's profits are only half the story... the other half is future growth and future guidance. Investors didn't seem too happy with the Apple story in those departments, which is much of why the stock is down roughly 35 percent from a month ago. Argh.

Apple is always conservative about its future guidance, which drives down the stock price. This time was more dramatic than the past.

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You still can't seem to get that Europe is a very different market from the US. Asia will be more different still. A product that does well in the US doesn't necessarily fly elsewhere.

Well I not only see what they say. I look at what they do. They talk about 3G a lot more than they use it.

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But even beyond that, you seem ignorant of the fundamental nature of the iPhone.

Really? Even though I've owned one since they first went on sale.

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Data use on phones has been low in general because the user experience has been bad previously. The iPhone changes that... better data/internet user experience equals you want to use data and browse the 'net on the iPhone.

Data use has been low on phones with 3G because the user experience has been bad. Internet use on the iPhone without 3G is nearly at the same rate as Linux on the desktop.

What is the common factor that makes the difference? Its not 3G.

What becomes the important factor that empowers people to use data. Its not 3G.

3G will help make the experience better.
post #61 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The market didn't punish them for it. So its a nonissue.

The stock's down 35 percent in a month. Over 40 billion dollars of shareholder value has been wiped out. So... WTH are you talking about? The economy is some of it, but Apple's growth story (or lack of) is the rest.


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Apple is always conservative about its future guidance, which drives down the stock price. This time was more dramatic than the past.

It was more dramatic because investors actually believed Apple's low guidance this time. Duh. And the iPhone's prospects were part of that.


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Well I not only see what they say. I look at what they do. They talk about 3G a lot more than they use it.

It's almost like you don't read my posts before you respond. What part of "the iPhone is a breakthrough Internet device that greatly improves user experience and drives data/Internet usage" did you not get?


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Really? Even though I've owned one since they first went on sale.

It's sad, but true.


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Data use has been low on phones with 3G because the user experience has been bad.

Do you honestly believe that data usage has been low on those phones because of 3G? That's hilarious.


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Internet use on the iPhone without 3G is nearly at the same rate as Linux on the desktop.

What is the common factor that makes the difference? Its not 3G.

Linux? Apple and oranges? WTF? That makes no sense.


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What becomes the important factor that empowers people to use data. Its not 3G.

It's Safari and ease-of-use... BUT... what is the point of having a cutting-edge mobile browser and world-class ease of use, if you then s*** all over that user experience by having your user base surf the 'net on an outdated, super-slow connection?

GPRS is 25 to 35 kbps, real-world. Is it 1995 again? Should I go fetch my old 28.8 modem out of the closet? What's not to get here?


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3G will help make the experience better.

In the case of Europe, which often has GPRS and not EDGE, make that a lot better.

And users over there, being rather more sophisticated regarding cellphones than your average US user, can see that... and they vote with their euros, pounds, etc. And have been... against the iPhone in too many cases.

Honestly Teno, what's your point? That Apple can stick Safari on a pair of styrofoam cups with a string running between them, and that alone will make the user experience delightful? Egads.

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post #62 of 76
Quote:
The stock's down 35 percent in a month.

Keep up Baggins we were talking about Orange and O2. They are the ones who made the projections that were not met.

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It's almost like you don't read my posts before you respond. What part of "the iPhone is a breakthrough Internet device that greatly improves user experience and drives data/Internet usage" did you not get?

I wasn't talking about the iPhone. I was talking about Euros and their demands for 3G. They talk about it more than they actually use it.

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Do you honestly believe that data usage has been low on those phones because of 3G? That's hilarious.

That's not what I said at all. Once again, "you taking what I've said out of context as you do to confuse the issue when you don't have solid argument".

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Linux? Apple and oranges? WTF? That makes no sense.



"The numbers seem small…until you put them into perspective. The iPhone was launched in late June — about seven months ago — and since then has captured almost .2% of the web-using world. When you look at Net Applications’ numbers and see that Linux itself — which has been around for centuries — only has .63% of the web market, such a dramatic seven-month gain is nothing short of incredible. (Either that, or there are only, like, 100 Linux users in the world.)"



Windows XP\t 78.37%
Windows Vista\t 9.19%
Mac OS\t 6.81%
Windows 2000\t 2.97%
Windows 98\t 0.76%
Windows NT\t 0.63%
Linux\t 0.57%
Windows ME\t 0.43%
iPhone\t 0.09%
Hiptop\t0.02%
Windows 95\t0.02%


"And it doesn't stop there. Desktop platforms are starting to come into the iPhone's blast radius. Windows 95 has less than a quarter of the marketshare of the iPhone. And all of the Linux variants combined, just over five times (.57%) the market. Broken out over Red Hat, Novel, Ubuntu, etc, someone is losing to the iPhone right now. At this rate, the iPhone/iPod platform should be the third largest computing platform by the end of next year. Remember, the iPod touch is only three months old. Oh, and it is Christmas. Not a bad first five months for Apple's new handheld OSX devices."


Quote:
Honestly Teno, what's your point? That Apple can stick Safari on a pair of styrofoam cups with a string running between them, and that alone will make the user experience delightful? Egads

Looking at the charts above. My point is that 3G helps but is not the primary technology for a good mobile internet usage.
post #63 of 76
This tariff change leaves me completely cold, I'll be honest. I don't care about extra free minutes, or extra texts, I'd never use up even the original allowance. I want a competitive feature-rich phone.

As a long-standing Mac fanboy who has recently returned to Europe after four years in North America I was in the market for a new phone. Obviously I was drawn to the iPhone but a little serious consideration was all I needed to dismiss it. The iPhone simply doesn't compete. I've gone with the Nokia N73, which despite being a two-year-old model does far more than the iPhone - 3G, user-installed apps being the main advantages, plus SD memory and a decent camera sweetening the deal - and it cost less unlocked than the iPhone does locked. The Symbian OS may not be as pretty as mobile OSX but imo it has more to offer - a lot more. Last but definitely not least, I can use my unlocked N73 with a pay-as-you-go SIM which is crucial if you travel much, and with a bargain basement monthly contract of 5 euro, with data access as and when I need it (and proper data access, not EDGE, because I need to use my phone as a modem for my macbook pro).

I think I'm a fairly typical phone user and I don't understand why Apple haven't invested more time in trying to understand the market here. No wonder the iPhone is tanking in Europe. This move by O2 doesn't change a thing - we need unlocked hardware with competitive features and third party applications. Otherwise the iPhone will never make it.
post #64 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by mono View Post

Well, I have no issue now with the price. But why the 18 month contact? Get it to 12 months and you have a deal O2. I'd only accept an 18 month contact for a MASSIVE subsidy on the handset cost.

Ha! In Germany not only do we have a 24 month contract, but now get 6 times less minutes and 10 times less SMS's than you. Seriously, you have nothing to complain about.

I'm sure that isn't the only reason stopping uptake here though. Like others have said, the device is last generation technology until it comes out with 3G.
post #65 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottocrat View Post

This tariff change leaves me completely cold, I'll be honest. I don't care about extra free minutes, or extra texts, I'd never use up even the original allowance. I want a competitive feature-rich phone.

As a long-standing Mac fanboy who has recently returned to Europe after four years in North America I was in the market for a new phone. Obviously I was drawn to the iPhone but a little serious consideration was all I needed to dismiss it. The iPhone simply doesn't compete. I've gone with the Nokia N73, which despite being a two-year-old model does far more than the iPhone - 3G, user-installed apps being the main advantages, plus SD memory and a decent camera sweetening the deal - and it cost less unlocked than the iPhone does locked. The Symbian OS may not be as pretty as mobile OSX but imo it has more to offer - a lot more. Last but definitely not least, I can use my unlocked N73 with a pay-as-you-go SIM which is crucial if you travel much, and with a bargain basement monthly contract of 5 euro, with data access as and when I need it (and proper data access, not EDGE, because I need to use my phone as a modem for my macbook pro).

I think I'm a fairly typical phone user and I don't understand why Apple haven't invested more time in trying to understand the market here. No wonder the iPhone is tanking in Europe. This move by O2 doesn't change a thing - we need unlocked hardware with competitive features and third party applications. Otherwise the iPhone will never make it.


Exactly. The O2 tariff changes help a lot but I'd still have to carry around an unlocked 3G phone to tether with my Mac anyway which makes the iPhone a vanity dongle.

I emailed a friend of mine the new O2 tariffs yesterday. He said he was still getting an HTC Tytan - free, better minutes/text still, £25 a month and 'enough' data allowance. What sold it though was he can operate it with one hand, something he couldn't do with an iPhone.

I think he'll end up frustrated with WinMo personally but again it just shows some people value cheap over flashy.
post #66 of 76
The internet experience consists of 2 critical parts. The speed, and the user experience. The iPhone has the user experience nailed, but is way off the mark in terms of speed. Other phones, such as the N95, are far more balanced because they have both a fairly decent user experience, and fairly decent speed.

In America simply having the internet on your mobile to begin with seems like a miracle has been performed, and I think that's why it has sold well. In Europe we are already far more accustomed to using the internet on our phones so we aren't repared to sacrifice speed for a jazzy interface. It needs to have both.
post #67 of 76
At last O2 listen.....

First new price plans and now new bolt ons.. making a much better deal..

new Bolt Ons:

"We're also offering the following Bolt Ons for our iPhone customers and it'll be available from 01 February 2008 onwards:

- 1) Unlimited O2 O2 Calls for £7.50.
- 2) Unlimited weekend calls for £7.50.
- 3) Unlimited anytime texts for £7.50.
- 4) Unlimited fixed line calls for £7.50.
- 5) An extra 200 anytime minutes for £7.50

If you would like to take advantage of one of these great offers, please reply to this email with your selection on or after 01 February 2008. We'll then add this to your account."
post #68 of 76
Well its about time O2 done this. To be honest a move like this was always on the cards. I mean 200 mintues and texts for 35 a month is plain stupid. I would have thought they will drop the price of the handset around Easter time.
post #69 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrochester View Post

In America simply having the internet on your mobile to begin with seems like a miracle has been performed, and I think that's why it has sold well. In Europe we are already far more accustomed to using the internet on our phones so we aren't repared to sacrifice speed for a jazzy interface. It needs to have both.

Fair enough, but my iPhone on O2's EDGE service is quicker than my SE V600i 3G Vodafone phone at downloading websites. Bandwidth does not mean speed, just like high resolution cameras does not mean great picture quality... there are so many different factors.
post #70 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Keep up Baggins we were talking about Orange and O2. They are the ones who made the projections that were not met.

Teno, no one CARES much about Orange and O2, beyond QoS/network/pricing issues... they are mainly just orifices for Apple to sell iPhones through, far as Apple investors are concerned.

But I guess if I didn't want to talk about how Apple's stock did indeed get punished by investors in part for sub-par European iPhone sales and a soft Euro sales outlook going forward, then changing the subject to the Euro carriers' stock price would be one way to do it.


Quote:
I wasn't talking about the iPhone. I was talking about Euros and their demands for 3G. They talk about it more than they actually use it.

Sigh. Teno, you've been told repeatedly that the very nature of the iPhone drives data usage dramatically, and that the better Internet experience on the iPhone is a game-changer in terms of data usage (much more so if given a data connection that isn't crap slow).

You even own one, so you know this. So I'm just going to assume that you're being willfully obtuse here, and are ignoring some very obvious facts here only because they don't fit in with your argument. Sad.


Quote:
That's not what I said at all. Once again, "you taking what I've said out of context as you do to confuse the issue when you don't have solid argument".

LOL. Give it a rest, Teno. It was no accident that you said

Data use has been low on phones with 3G because the user experience has been bad.

You were trying to give the impression that 3G had something to do with the user experience being bad, which is silly. The Internet user experience on smartphones was bad due to (take your pick) crippled minibrowsers, smallish screens (in some cases), and poor ease-of-use.

3G is actually a bright spot for said smartphones. The user experience is bad in other ways, but at least it isn't compounded by having a crap slow connection. \


Quote:
blah buh blah tortured linux comparisons, even I don't know what I'm saying anymore

Fixed.


Quote:
Looking at the charts above. My point is that 3G helps but is not the primary technology for a good mobile internet usage.

Teno, teno, teno... have you learned nothing from our little chats? It's all about user experience. GPRS does not help provide a good one, and thus hobbles Apple's awesome mobile Safari browser and great ease-of-use. 3G, on the other hand, complements Apple's otherwise stellar user experience.

You can pull up all the Linux comparo charts you wish, but it doesn't alter that central fact. And until you can grok that user experience is what really matters, you'll never 'get it'.

On the plus side, I look forward to you comparing 3G to Solaris, the BeOS, and chicken-fried steak in your next posting. Should be terribly relevant.

.
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post #71 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrochester View Post

In America simply having the internet on your mobile to begin with seems like a miracle has been performed, and I think that's why it has sold well.

In Europe we are already far more accustomed to using the internet on our phones so we aren't repared to sacrifice speed for a jazzy interface. It needs to have both.


Well said.

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post #72 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by hdasmith View Post

Fair enough, but my iPhone on O2's EDGE service is quicker than my SE V600i 3G Vodafone phone at downloading websites. Bandwidth does not mean speed, just like high resolution cameras does not mean great picture quality... there are so many different factors.


Basically, much of what you're saying is that your Sony-Ericson has a crap browser. Fair enough, software does matter.

But, imagine the iPhone's mobile Safari browser over 3G, rather than O2's hodgepodge of GPRS and EDGE. Would that not completely blow your SE away?

.
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post #73 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottocrat

This tariff change leaves me completely cold, I'll be honest. I don't care about extra free minutes, or extra texts, I'd never use up even the original allowance. I want a competitive feature-rich phone.

As a long-standing Mac fanboy who has recently returned to Europe after four years in North America I was in the market for a new phone. Obviously I was drawn to the iPhone but a little serious consideration was all I needed to dismiss it. The iPhone simply doesn't compete. I've gone with the Nokia N73, which despite being a two-year-old model does far more than the iPhone - 3G, user-installed apps being the main advantages, plus SD memory and a decent camera sweetening the deal - and it cost less unlocked than the iPhone does locked. The Symbian OS may not be as pretty as mobile OSX but imo it has more to offer - a lot more. Last but definitely not least, I can use my unlocked N73 with a pay-as-you-go SIM which is crucial if you travel much, and with a bargain basement monthly contract of 5 euro, with data access as and when I need it (and proper data access, not EDGE, because I need to use my phone as a modem for my macbook pro).

I think I'm a fairly typical phone user and I don't understand why Apple haven't invested more time in trying to understand the market here. No wonder the iPhone is tanking in Europe. This move by O2 doesn't change a thing - we need unlocked hardware with competitive features and third party applications. Otherwise the iPhone will never make it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Exactly. The O2 tariff changes help a lot but I'd still have to carry around an unlocked 3G phone to tether with my Mac anyway which makes the iPhone a vanity dongle.

I emailed a friend of mine the new O2 tariffs yesterday. He said he was still getting an HTC Tytan - free, better minutes/text still, £25 a month and 'enough' data allowance. What sold it though was he can operate it with one hand, something he couldn't do with an iPhone.

I think he'll end up frustrated with WinMo personally but again it just shows some people value cheap over flashy.


Yeah, it's sad, you hear stories like this over and over and over again... Euro iPhone sales lost to competitors simply because Apple doesn't quite seem to understand the market over there.

The pricing issues are being solved, but they've got to understand the feature sets that Euro users expect and demand as well. That's just par for the course if you want to be an agile global competitor in, what is for you, a new market (Euro cellphones).

To be fair, Apple is not alone in not quite 'getting' a foreign market. Nokia has had poor results in the US over the past few years, on account of favoring bar phones for the longest time (Americans tend to like flips) and not having much good CDMA product (CDMA is more popular than GSM in the US).

Hopefully, Apple does not emulate Nokia's tone deafness to a foreign market, and end up becoming an also-ran in Europe in the same way that Nokia is pretty much an also-ran in the States. \

Here is a cautionary tale for Apple:


Nokia wants its US market share back
Written by Doug Aamoth
December 10th, 2007


Remember back when everyone basically had the same cell phone? Those old, brickey Nokias? Well Nokia misses that feeling and wants to claw its way back into the US market again.

Its market share here in the states is about 10%, down from 28% five years ago according to the New York Times. Much of the reasoning behind Nokia’s fall from grace has to do with "its refusal to adapt its strategy to the market’s idiosyncrasies," a claim that Nokia agrees with.

“We felt we could teach the U.S. market how we do business elsewhere, and frankly, that failed. Now we just want to act, based on the needs and requirements of the market,” said Nokia’s chief executive, Olli-Pekka Kallasvuo.


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post #74 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by hdasmith View Post

Fair enough, but my iPhone on O2's EDGE service is quicker than my SE V600i 3G Vodafone phone at downloading websites. Bandwidth does not mean speed, just like high resolution cameras does not mean great picture quality... there are so many different factors.

Ah, but which one is fastest for data attached to your Mac/PC ?

Wait.... You can't attach the iPhone.....
post #75 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Ah, but which one is fastest for data attached to your Mac/PC ?

Wait.... You can't attach the iPhone.....


In the US, we call it 'tethering'.

And... good point. \


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post #76 of 76
With the new software available for the Touch, I have met people (including Apple employee) who have bought a Touch and the relevant software and stuck with their normal phone and contract. Wonder what impact this might have on iPhone sales
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