Apple delays Apple TV "Take 2" software by a week or two - Page 2

the impression I got from the Apple TV Demo was that the main interface was going to take the form of the square, bordered 2-tier menu in the center of the screen, instead of the hierarchical list on the right side of the screen. I was wondering if something like this was coming to Front Row

Well I'm glad they didn't leave me hanging, but this news doesn't make me any happier. It's extremely frustrating to buy something and not use it the way it was shown for a month afterward.

I think that is only for the Rental section. Whether it's Blockbuster, Best Buy or Netflix people are accustomed to searching for movie titles by the front cover. I think the rest of the AppleTV interface will still remain the same. Though, it would be nice to see some sort of Delicious Library-type interface option.

I think Apple needs a few more irons in the fire

Better to wait and release bug-free software.


Do we actually have any indication at this point as to how big the iTunes HD movies are going to be? Where did this "couple of gigs" come from?

And, as Hattig points out:


The bit-rate on HD discs is for the most part overkill. Firstly, they have to encode twice the number of pixels per frame (1080p Vs. 720p), secondly the 30 Mbps is only really necessary when using MPEG-2 compression. H.264 is a much more efficient codec.

If you want a full computer experience on your big TV, buy a computer. The beauty of my AppleTV is its simplicity why ruin that by making it a Mac-wannabe.

McD

Wow that is 100% wrong. HD is nothing but resolution, what you're talking about is compression and things like artifacts and macroblocking which can be effects of compression but have nothing to do with the res of the source.

And even in that arguement you're wrong. "You have 2 options with Apple TV: YouTube quality, or almost-DVD quality for $1 more"

What a joke.

And you don't even know what the hd rentals will even look like yet.

I figure they will with time but they'll probably do it a while after appltv so it can have it's day in the sun.

The original iTunes content wasn't that flash but has improved quite a bit. Even converting to iPod & AppleTV in iTunes is much better than 6 months ago. Did you view the content at normal viewing distance on a decent TV? (I exclude the entry-level Bravias from this - the colour/depth is awful)

The thing a lot of these arguments don't address is the subjectivity aspect of encoding i.e. what should stay & what should go. This is the reason DivX & 3ivx MPEG-4/ASP videos look better than Quicktime's AVC (despite a 10-30% compression disadvantage). Sony have also introduced a new encoder for their HD camcorders giving more details in the areas you're likely to look at (faces) so we're improving all the time.

The best thing to do is use your eyes and ignore the specs. I've seen a few ~3.5Mbps 720p H.264 downloaded TV shows and they look great on my TV much better than and SD broadcast and DVD. Unless Apple messes it up again the rentals should be fine and they'll improve over time - remember, they're just rentals.

AppleTV is great & we're starting to watch ours more than normal TV & it's a great way to show photos to friends as well as the best HiFi I've had (convenience not quality)

Good luck, McD

For those contemplating the Apple TV, here's my nontechnical review as an Apple TV owner since May 2007. My setup: AppleTV-HDMI-Receiver-HDMI-480p (DVD resolution) Projector. (We don't have a regular TV.)

The TV shows from iTunes have looked generally great, most are widescreen and the picture is crisp (no jaggies or other obvious compression artifacts). The audio sometimes gets out of sync with the video - which may be a result of my passing it through a receiver first, dunno.

We purchased one movie from iTunes - Ratatouille - and it was definitely at what I would consider DVD resolution. I have viewed an archive MP4 of one of my feature film DVDs on the Apple TV and it is only a little less sharp than the original - probably having more to do with compression choices than limitations of the Apple TV. (The "Apple TV" setting in the Elgato Turbo works great.) If this is how the non-HD rental movies will look, the Apple TV will have fulfilled its promise.

Video podcasts are all over the map, though. Some of the "HD" podcasts look quite good over this setup and others are full of compression artifacts. For example the neat This Week @ NASA podcast has unwonderful video quality.

The Apple TV is a good home movie viewing platform. It would be better if folders could be created within the Movie category. They (currently) cannot, so I identify all home movies as "TV Shows" where at least they can be grouped together. There is a little shareware program called Lostify that does batch changes to the meta data of MP4's - which, without getting too into it, is unfortunately necessary if you have lots of home movies, because iTunes makes you drag down menus one-at-a-time for every movie file you want to recategorize as a TV Show.

The YouTube connectivity is fun, especially if you are already into YouTube. However, the YouTube videos are generally low resolution and horribly compressed (through no fault of the Apple TV) and don't look that great when projected on our setup, so we don't watch 'em unless there is a must see film going around. (More FOTC, please.)

In terms of software, the iTunes integration is easy - just like an ipod that's always plugged in - so it is always updating the latest podcast or subscribed TV show, etc.

In terms of the hardware, it sure would be nice to have an off switch for easier reboots - the device does refuse to wake up once in a while, otherwise almost never crashes. Right now, I have to pull the cord out of the back of the device and re-insert it - which always makes me worry that I'm shorting it out or something. I'm thinking of adding one of those lamp cord switches to its cord for this purpose. A reset button would be even better...

So, the Apple TV is not perfect, but the things it had to get right - like video quality and ease of use - it does get right.

I was thinking that feature was going to be included, but iLounge's preview makes it seem the opposite of what you would expect. Why would you want to play back streamed audio? It already does that!

It already has too many features. If it just booted up and went straight to the movie rental screen (with the bricks along the top), and that was its only feature, then it would be less nerdy and ordinary people would understand immediately what it does, and they would want to buy it to save them having to return movies to the Blockbuster.

The reason Apple and other companies keep failing in this area because they are still trying to sell Digital Living Room/Convergence as the Big New Idea, something people don't want or understand.

The ACTUAL Big New Idea they should be trying to sell is Internet Movie Rentals. It is something far more concrete and understandable (no more trips to Blockbuster), and the first company to grasp this and sell a box that does ONLY this will make a killing.

And it looks like Apple has done this. I know I've read several posts here and elsewhere from people who have purchased a new AppleTV and are patiently and impatiently awaiting the "Take 2" update. Also, i still maintain my "4 out" Netflix account, but I've now rented 7 movies from iTunes because the moment struck me. I love instant gratification!


PS: Perhaps I'm completely off base, but it seems like the people who want the simple items to be more complex are the same ones who want the complex items to be less complex. For instance, I have a friend who calls iTunes bloatware because it has a store, codec conversion and burning capabilities built in, but then won't buy an AppleTV until it has a web browser and access to email. I just don't get it.

The Take 2 update *adds* rentals to all the other features it already has. I am suggesting they take out all the previous features (which were unsuccessful anyway) and only have movie rentals.

That way the movie rental screen can be the first thing it shows when it boots up and the last thing when it shuts down which is the least confusing GUI, and makes it clear what you're buying, In it's current form it is too amorphous and unsure of itself.

Actually, doesn't anyone remember the Flickr-feature malfunctioning on Steve at the keynote? It looked like there was something wrong with downloading images from Flickr, but the software would still happily start a slideshow, showing black screens. That's a bug in my book. If that happens during the high profile opening keynote, I dread to think what other rough edges are lurking beneath the surface.


That's a horrible idea. The biggest reason I bought AppleTV in the first place was so I could have my music library in the living room through an easy to use interface. With movie rentals not coming to Europe for another few months (heck, I'm not even sure we will get them in the Netherlands by that time, we don't even have movie downloads yet) that's probably still going to be the primary use for some time to come, for me.

I do think the new interface (which definitely is different, just look at the walkthrough on the Apple website, the welcome screen giving access to all the features is very different) looks too cluttered, I actually think it is a shame they're changing it so drastically. Maybe it's nicer to use, but it's definitely not nicer to look at. Actually, fingers crossed that one of the delays is some tweaking of the interface to make it look better.

And finally, I too would like Apple to add web-functionality to the Apple TV. I think that similar technology to that on the iPhone could make the web very useful from the living room couch, especially when combining Apple TV with the Apple wireless keyboard. Maybe they could even introduce a wireless mouse that doubles as a remote I'm sure there are ways to not bother people that don't want all this with these things and still make it possible for those that do want it. Why not allow configuration of what menu's to show, so everyone can just choose the menu's they use while not being bothered by all the other ones?

The software's not ready yet even though they said it would be. And yet, surprisingly, the sun still came up here where I live...

The quality isn't wonderful. How do we know? I thought the software wasn't ready yet...

Reality Check time. The little Apple TV costs well less than a good quality VHS VCR did in it's heyday, and does a very good job at what it was designed to do. For Pete's sake, go out into the Home Entertainment market, look at the cost of things in general, and get a sense of scale. There are people paying $2800 for 3-foot audio cables for their systems, and we're beating up a device that plays music, videos, photos, and soon allows wireless download movie rentals for under $300.

I'm glad to see such drama over a device some of you guys said would be "dying a slow death". While I'm looking forward to the update, AppleTV gets plenty of usage in the meantime.

For everyone who wants to be able to browse the web on their @TV, you should try it on a Wii first to see how it shouldn't be implemented.

At a minimum, in order to do the web correctly on the @TV it would need to support a Bluetooth wireless keyboard and mouse/pointing device, and @TV as it exists today doesn't have BT...

In the end, I think I'm in the "don't overdo it" camp.

Or if they want to they can buy a Mac Mini. It's an ideal mismash of media extender and personal computer.

I have an AppleTV , HDMI, and 42' plasma and the image looks like crap- unless you Handbrake a DVD, which looks acceptable or view photos. Evrything sold on iTunes looks barely better than VHS. looks fine on an iPod but not on a large HDTV.
And the HD that Steve talked about is pure BS. Read this:
http://www.dvdfile.com/index.php?opt...=6497&Itemid=5

Only Steve Jobs could sell you an empty box with its only intention is to $ell Itunes content only. It should be re-called the iTunesJukeBox.
We wanted an update that increased funtionality on the device but instead only got more options to buy from iTune$.
Apple, not the movie studios, has botched this product.

More FUD from the peanut gallery!

Recompressing MPEG2 DVDs to MPEG4 do not look better than the 640x480 @ 1.5Mbps video encoding with MPEG4 PART10 video that Apple sells. iTS video is close to DVD resolution and the differences between codec algorithms becomes apparent when re-encoding. Apple does encode from DVDs!

Besides your false comment that converted DVDs look good but nothing else does, the AppleTV will do 720p @ 24fps. This has nothing to do with the content. This is the physical capabilities of the hardware.

And then you say that VHS and iTS content is comparable. VHS uses a horizontal resolution of 240 lines and S-VHS (which you failed to even mention) has a horizontal resolution of 420 lines. Both well below anything at the iTS. I'm surprised to pull out the "YouTube video is better quality" blather.

Not just Steve. The phonogrpah, turntable, 8-track, cassette, VHS, DVD, HD-DVD, and Blu-ray players are a few examples of devices that required you purchase media separately.

A 42' plasma! How ever much did that cost?

Gave the article a very quick scan and it looks like it makes some good points. However, the accuracy of the article is brought into question by the fact that the table of media/codecs/bitrate doesn't state that HD-DVD and Blu-ray both use H.264, MPEG-2 or H.264, and doesn't state that the bitrates quoted are theoretical maximums rather than typical bitrates you'll actually see with most discs.

As I said before, you only really need those maximum bitrates for 1080p encoded with MPEG-2. High-Profile H.264 is much more efficient.

Finally, where did they get the iTunes store HD bitrate from? No one knows what the bitrate will be until the AppleTV 2 comes out. Even then, it might be a bit tricky to work out (will AppleTV 2 even tell you what the bitrate is?).


Number of lines is a measure of vertical resolution, not horizontal (the lines are stacked on top of each other).

The "SD" videos from iTunes have a maximum width of 640 pixels. When first launched, iTunes content in 16:9 had a height of 360 pixels and is therefore lower resolution than S-VHS.

However, I've seen some things here and there which seem to suggest that some more recent stuff is anamorphically coded so widescreen content can make full use of the 480 pixel height that 4:3 content enjoys.

Listen Peanut Vendor-At least the cassette and VHS allowed you to record media. You can't even do that with an AppleTV!! Technology should move forward not backwards.

I suspect that someone will have to put their APpleTV HDD with rented HD media onto another machine and attempt to determine the bitrate that way.


But we aren't talking about what iTS started at. That was truly bad resolution and I'm not sure why they thought was ever going to fly. As I've stated before, the current content looks as good as DVD on via my AppleTV via HDMi to a 37" LG LCD HDTV that is about 10' away from the viewer. I'm not sure if the AppleTV up-converts or that I have poor vision or if these negative comments are just pointless prattle from those who haven't used an AppleTV.


The highest SD iTS video I've come across is the movie 300 (2007) at 853x405 @ 1.67Mbps.

So then don't buy it and and leave those who like it to enjoy it.

I certainly do like peanuts and have much respect for George Washington Carver, but I've never had an opportunity to be a purveyor of this popular legume.

You can play recorded media on the AppleTV and there is no requirement ot purchase or rent from iTS. It's the great thing about the digital age; Something that previous technologies couldn't do. But that is neither here nor there. There are plenty of other media extenders out there, especially since CES 2008, for you to choose from if the AppleTV doesn't fit your particular needs.


PS: I love how the same people that say Apple products are too distended are also the ones to say that they should be more convoluted by adding something that will appeal to the very few.

Has Apple spread it's software teams too thin? Delays in Leopard, an Iphone that lacks some basic software features, Apple Tv update that does nothing that adds rentals delayed by another week or two? I bought a movie today in Chicago due to the weather on myy tivo it has taken close to 4 hours to download and I can't watch it till it's finshed downloading.
Apple Tv update needs safari support, bluetooth keyboard support, Internet radio would be nice also, how about when my iphone rings it displays the name of the caller on the screen ? iphone as a remote? How about in this leopard update when I pop in a dvd it asks if I want to rip it to itunes auto and then installs it on my apple tv.

It does seem Apple may be spreading themselves a little thin, ut no more than the past and surely their delays are a lot shorter than other software developers.
My iTS downloads come down at 2MBps (16Mbps). If you want your AppleTV to be a computer then buy a Mac Mini.

I see no reason why my iPhone ringing should interrupt a program other people are watching by plastering the call on the TV.
Just because Handbrake illegally rips DVDs means that Apple should follow suit?

What a god awful idea. I do not care about movies. I may rent one of two a year or even for the whole life of the product. I do not want to be limited to only renting movies. In my mind the whole purpose of the AppleTV is to get content off of my computer and onto my TV. Renting movies is a nice add on.


And have you looked at anything besides what Apple sells on the ITS for the iPods? Go download some video podcasts. Sure, there that were encoded for the iPods that do not look very good on the AppleTV. But there are many more that have been encoded for the AppleTV at higher levels, including high definition, and look very nice on my HD TV. (These will not load on to the iPods.)


Maybe, and maybe not. I suspect that Apple has rewritten the AppleTV from the ground up. So alot more that 'tacking on' a new software module is involved. (As if that wouldn't have its own troubles.) I think that Take-2 and 10.5.2 are interrelated. So if Apple is having problems with 10.5.2, and Take-2 needs 10.5.2 we will not get Take-2 until 10.5.2 is ready to for the public. -- From the "no know issues" being reported with the seeds I think that the 10.5.2 delay may be related to merging the AppleTV and Time Capsule support into 10.5.2. Em, maybe they still have not gotten Time Machine over WiFi to work and time Capsule is in jeopardy.


And Hollywood is doing its damnedest to keep recording and HD well apart. Someone else can chime in with the initials but Hollywood has gotten protocols in place to completely lock out all recording devices except for those they approve and control. In other word, if (and its a big if) you can record a HD signal it will only be on those devices where Hollywood can control the distribution (not) and how it is played back. We will not get the flexibility we did with VHS. -- My biggest complaint here is that Hollywood assumes that they will be the only ones creating content and can control how I copy and distribute content that I create.

With Take 2:

I just hope they fix the syncing issues I get. I have two Apple Airports in WDS, one is next to the Apple TV, I get 5 bars constant, so no signal issues. Even with my laptop next to it, I have zero network problems, i can download huge files super fast.

However, anytime I buy something from iTunes, it takes DAYS to sync. Mind you, anything else I have is immediately synced, photos, videos, mp3s. Its just the purchased content that gets hung up, don't understand this one freakin' bit. Right now its foundering through 12 songs i bought on my iPhone and a TV show my wife wanted to watch 2 days ago, but can't cause the freaking thing won't sync it. It'll try for 20 minutes then disappear from iTunes until I restart iTunes again. Constant pain with bought content. wtheck.

Disturbia is 853x480.

What is the bitrate?

Kind of a bummer that the take-2 update wasn't out for Superbowl Sunday. I hosted a party with about a dozen people, some of whom were very curious about the aluminum device that sits on top of my pioneer dvd player. After the game was over, a few wanted me to show them how the whole thing worked. While they were impressed, it would have been very nice to be able to show them the new features that are supposed to have come with take-2.

To the people saying that Netflix is a better deal. Well it is but if it's anything like LoveFilm (UK equivalent) You never know what they are doing to send you next? Is Netflix like that?

Seems to take ages for any of our priority 1 films to get though to us. So I would say that being able to watch a movie within mins of selecting it is a good trade off?

It's nothing like that. ou have a queue which you can reorder at anytime. Also, Netflix is quite good at letting you know when they've received your previous DVDs, when they haave readied yur new ones and when it is expected to arrive.

I pay for a 4 out at once, but I've still rented and purchased plenty from iTS. Netflix has the ability to be inexpensive and offers a much larger selection, but it doesn't have an option for instant gratification or any easy or legal way to load onto iDevices. Netflix does havea streaming option but it only works via WMP 11 and it extremely poor quality compared to iTS, so it is not an option for many people here.

1552.

Today makes 3 weeks; I guess they're going for the full four.

If they'd put a Blu-ray player in the AppleTV, it would at last play true HD content. Even if it had a regular DVD player, "sync" would be instantaneous.