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Apple introduces 16GB iPhone, 32GB iPod touch models - Page 5

post #161 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I wouldn't call the entrenched Windows Mobile and Palm "no competition."

Depends where you are. In the US, you'd be correct to say that WM and Palm are a significant force, at least in sales. But elsewhere in the world, it seems to be all about Symbian and their 70-75% worldwide marketshare in smartphones.

WM, in comparison, has only about a 6% worldwide share... and that's with many years in the market, and the backing and considerable resources of the richest tech company in the world. Its no wonder that outside of the US, WM is kind of a laughingstock.

Palm? 1.6% worldwide smartphone share.

You gotta understand, the Euros will naturally tend to have a very different view than Americans on something like this. WM and Palm are a bit of a joke to them because WM and Palm aren't that successful outside of the US... more like "gnats dancing for Symbian's amusement" as one Euro friend of mine put it, though that is a bit harsh.


Quote:
You are talking in specs and theory. But in actual practice the iPhone in 8 months has captured .13% of the worlds browser share, more than any other phone. What good is the 3G in many other phones if it is rarely used?

Well, that's the cool thing about the iPhone, the browser and ease-of-use are a leap ahead, so you actually want to browse the 'net on the iPhone... assuming your connection isn't crap slow, compromising the user experience.

Therefore, on the iPhone, 3G would definitely be used, and the iPhone's browser share should explode. Win-win, wouldn't you say?


Quote:
Instead of buying the phone that meets your needs and enjoying life, you seem comfortable just to bitch about everything in regards to the iPhone in general.

No, I think he's simply seeing it through a Euro consumer's eyes. Competing phones over there have 3G, MMS, and 3.2 and 5.0 megapixel cameras. Sure, Apple has some very key things that said competition does NOT have (OS X, Safari, visual voicemail), but, given the price, a mixed scorecard does not seem to be attractive enough for Euro users to stampede towards the iPhone... as sales so far have borne out.

What aegis, and a lot of Euro posters, appear to be saying is, get rid of the iPhone's obvious weaknesses and the thing will be a lot more of an attractive buy over there. Because if you've got the iPhone's advantages and 3G and MMS and a good camera, what's not to love?

The price would still be high, likely, even if Apple does get a bit more aggressive there- but I think enough ppl are willing to shell out for something that would inarguably be 'the best', as a good iPhone 2.0 would be.

And besides, who are you to decide whose complaints are legitimate and whose are bitching? The world does not love a forum bully, Teno. Aegis' comments are every bit as legitimate as your own. \


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post #162 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Have you seen the latest Orange France stats yet? They only sold 20,000 in January. 20,000 in one of Europe's biggest countries.

Ugh. That's even bleaker when you consider that mobile phone penetration in most European nations is quite a bit higher than it is in the US.


Quote:
I was explicitly bitching about the 2G phone chip but add the shitty camera.

Quote:
I agree but in this case the iPhone has those features - ie. a radio chip and a camera - they're just poor implementations for such an expensive phone.

IYO Aegis, is it fair to say that, for the price, your average Euro customer expects 3G and either a 3.2 or a 5.0 megapixel camera?


Quote:
No, I was asking Teno when he expects them to aggressively update the iPhone and he was suggesting 'sometime before the end of the year'. I agree with you - it'll have to be soon.

I think Apple would be very foolish to wait until the end of the year to update the iPhone in a major way. The Asian launch and good Euro sales practically require an iPhone 2.0... that's where we're at, and I'm sure Apple is aware of it. The capacity update is great as far as it goes, but by itself, is more of a stopgap than anything else.


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post #163 of 226
Quote:
Depends where you are. In the US, you'd be correct to say that WM and Palm are a significant force, at least in sales. But elsewhere in the world, it seems to be all about Symbian and their 70-75% worldwide marketshare in smartphones.

I was only talking about the US.

Quote:
You gotta understand, the Euros will naturally tend to have a very different view than Americans on something like this. WM and Palm are a bit of a joke to them because WM and Palm aren't that successful outside of the US.

Do you notice you've only taken what Aegis has said as the entire European view? Pretty heavy load carrying the opinion of 700 million people who have different cultures and speak different languages.

Quote:
Therefore, on the iPhone, 3G would definitely be used, and the iPhone's browser share should explode. Win-win, wouldn't you say.

I've said several times the iPhone experience will be better with 3G. But the current reality is that iPhone data use is wildly successful. Their is more to do with that success than only radio chips or frequencies.

Quote:
No, I think he's simply seeing it through a Euro consumer's eyes.

"I am European and I find the iPhone to be a simply astonishing device. I use it constantly, not because it is crammed with features, but because unlike Nokia's devices, its features actually work. That functionality makes it more valuable to me. "

Carniphage, Sheffield England


"I, like many iPhone users have found this is the first phone where I have explored 'every' feature on the device and when more features are added i'll have already learnt the device inside out so I'll get to know all of the new features in depth too. It's one of those things Apple have always done right. They understand the balance between functionality and clutter. The balance between Form and Function."

Dazabrit, UK

"All in all a stunningly beautiful and "truly revolutionary" handheld device (it's not just a phone) with a few very noticable but very fixable oversights.I have to admit it, it's hard not to love the iPhone once you have really used it.
Now excuse me while I go touch the future."


Ireland, Ireland
post #164 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I've said several times the iPhone experience will be better with 3G.

I find it interesting how many articles said something like
"Wow, how did they get it so small and sleek"
followed immediately by "Pity it's not 3G".

And very few articles really put the 2 together. I mean, it's a no brainer to want a 3G iPhone but with the same size and battery life as the current iPhone... I'd love one.

So - if Apple had released a 3G version side by side with their 2G version.... even the same price... and the 3G was 50% thicker and twice the weight (bigger battery squeezed in), which would you have chosen?
post #165 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

So - if Apple had released a 3G version side by side with their 2G version.... even the same price... and the 3G was 50% thicker and twice the weight (bigger battery squeezed in), which would you have chosen?


'50% thicker and twice the weight' is a gross exaggeration.

Look around... there's plenty of 3G smartphones out that are nearly as thin as the iPhone, and weigh about the same. Take the Samsung Blackjack II, for instance:


Blackjack II: (3G smartphone)
Weight\t 4.09 oz (116 g)
Dimensions\t 4.48" x 2.39" x 0.51"

iPhone:
Weight\t 4.8 oz (136 g)
Dimensions\t 4.5" x 2.4" x 0.46"


So, let's see... the Blackjack II is actually quite a bit lighter than the iPhone, is marginally shorter and narrower than the iPhone, and is only about 10% thicker. And has 3G.

Before you go, "Well, what about battery life?", the Blackjack II has 7 hours talk time, nearly as good as the iPhone. And it actually has more standby time... 336 hours vs 250 for the iPhone.

What ppl don't seem to get is that the 3G chipsets are getting better all the time in regards to things like power consumption, weight, and size. The 3G iPhone, when it arrives, certainly will not be a tank.

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post #166 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I was only talking about the US.

In that case, I would agree with you. But you do understand why the Euros do not see WM and Palm as being particularly strong competition. In Europe, and most of the rest of the world, they're not.


Quote:
Do you notice you've only taken what Aegis has said as the entire European view? Pretty heavy load carrying the opinion of 700 million people who have different cultures and speak different languages.

The majority of Euro postings to date seem to be closer to Aegis' point of view on most things iPhone-related than your own. I don't think this is really news to you.


Quote:
I've said several times the iPhone experience will be better with 3G. But the current reality is that iPhone data use is wildly successful. Their is more to do with that success than only radio chips or frequencies.

What you seem to willfully ignore at every turn, though, is the fact that the iPhone's data use would be much more 'wildly successful' still if it had 3G.

Again, its all about user experience... Safari is a great first step, but you need to mate it to a decent data connection. GPRS isn't it, and thats what many Euros are stuck with if they're mobile and do not have a 3G-capable phone. And those Euros have been voting with their pocketbooks.



Quote:
"I am European and I find the iPhone to be a simply astonishing device. I use it constantly, not because it is crammed with features, but because unlike Nokia's devices, its features actually work. That functionality makes it more valuable to me. "

etc. etc.

That's great Teno, but I'm sure if I had the time and desire, I could dig up five times more quotes that generally agree with aegis and disagree with you.

And of course, we have the slow Euro sales to back that up.

I'm sure that many Euro consumers do find things in the iPhone to admire, but unfortunately, those things haven't been compelling enough to make many Euro consumers overlook the iPhone's weaknesses and/or price.


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post #167 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Yeah but they didn't raise the price, they just didn't lower it. Existing model is the same price, you said they rose the price.. they didn't, they merely added a more expensive "newer" model.

I was referring to the biggest one, cause that's the only one I'd get. So the price for the biggest size rose 100 bucks, but w/e, not like it matters, I'll wait til the 32 GB is cheaper

On the other hand, if they were selling the 32 GB for 399, I'd be in for one now , but I can wait, cause it seems like you're always waiting with Apple
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post #168 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Come on Aegis you are going way out of way reaching for criticism. Bug fixes are when something doesn't work correctly. So far the major functions on the iPhone have worked fine.

Much of the new functionality wasn't even available when the iPhone was first introduced.

I don't think I am reaching but perhaps you can remind me what 'major functionality' they've added. Or what you mean by not existing when the phone was first introduced other than a custom YouTube client and iTunes in Starbucks?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Yeah ToDo's is absolutely required of any phone...

Of any smartphone, yes, I think it is. A fully implemented PIM is one of the cornerstones of smartphone-ness. YouTube isn't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I wouldn't call the entrenched Windows Mobile and Palm "no competition."

So you're saying Windows and Palm are actually pretty good?

The US market is basically Windows Mobile, Palm and RIM. RIM have done well to get where Palm should have been. Windows has just been shit all along. Symbian for whatever reason doesn't feature in the USA, largely because of your phone standards and reluctance from carriers to take Nokia's handsets it seems. I don't understand quite why exactly. There's cultural differences with candybars v flips (Here flip phones are for teens and chavs). However, it's resulted in a US market for smartphones that was only about 10% of the world's market..... until Apple came along and educated the USA as to why smartphones are cool. Couple it with some good marketing and persuading a carrier to not be such an arse and they have a hit there.

That's how I see it, and why Apple are successful in the USA and why I said it was low-hanging fruit.

In Europe, it's different. The phone hardware was a bit last year already, the software missing features we use more here, the carrier tariffs very high (though O2 have fixed that now) and the initial handset price astronomical. We've much more choice in handsets, carriers and tariffs. We've higher expectations in hardware features regardless of how nice the UI is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Penetration of smartphones in Europe may have happened faster than in the US. But actual use of them beyond phone calls and texting has been no faster.

Really? Prove it. And I don't mean by browser share. That's not the only thing you use smartphones for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

You are talking in specs and theory. But in actual practice the iPhone in 8 months has captured .13% of the worlds browser share, more than any other phone. What good is the 3G in many other phones if it is rarely used?

For when you actually want fast data ?

It's not 3G that is stopping browser usage on the other phones, it's the poor browsers and until last year at least, the tariffs. That's all changed recently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Instead of buying the phone that meets your needs and enjoying life, you seem comfortable just to bitch about everything in regards to the iPhone in general.

I'm an Apple fan. I'm disappointed that the 4 year old SE P910i I've already got is a better smartphone than Apple's new phone for me. Do you not think that's a sad situation to be in?

The SDK may fix that though if 3rd party developers add the features that I want in a phone that are currently missing from the iPhone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Well what other phone would sell 20,000 units on one carrier at 339 Euros with a 49 Euro tariff? Bringing new customers to its carrier.

There's two answers there...

1) Nokia managed to sell over 18 million smartphones in the quarter.

2) It shows there's a problem with the pricing or the product when it's not selling well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Ugh. That's even bleaker when you consider that mobile phone penetration in most European nations is quite a bit higher than it is in the US.

And our smartphone market is much bigger than the USA although ours only grew at 50-something percent and the USA grew at 222 percent, largely because of RIM and Apple.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

IYO Aegis, is it fair to say that, for the price, your average Euro customer expects 3G and either a 3.2 or a 5.0 megapixel camera?

Yes, I'd say so although the iPhone is pretty much priced way above anyone other than maybe the expensive fashion Nokias and Vertu phones. N95 8GB, HTC Tytans and Viewtys can be had for free now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Do you notice you've only taken what Aegis has said as the entire European view? Pretty heavy load carrying the opinion of 700 million people who have different cultures and speak different languages.

The sales figures speak for themselves really. I'm only trying to explain them by giving you context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I've said several times the iPhone experience will be better with 3G. But the current reality is that iPhone data use is wildly successful. Their is more to do with that success than only radio chips or frequencies.

It's entirely down to good browser software and the fact you're tied to a data plan, even if you're stuck on GPRS/EDGE. That's not usually the case with other phones. IME heavy 3G users use it by tethering their phone to a laptop too.
post #169 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

'50% thicker and twice the weight' is a gross exaggeration.

Look around... there's plenty of 3G smartphones out that are nearly as thin as the iPhone, and weigh about the same. Take the Samsung Blackjack II, for instance:

Before you go, "Well, what about battery life?", the Blackjack II has 7 hours talk time, nearly as good as the iPhone. And it actually has more standby time... 336 hours vs 250 for the iPhone.

What ppl don't seem to get is that the 3G chipsets are getting better all the time in regards to things like power consumption, weight, and size. The 3G iPhone, when it arrives, certainly will not be a tank..

That is what Steve has been saying from the beginning.

But we must keep in mind, that talking on a phone is not the issue. Using the phone more, like watching movies is going to eat into available talk time. Using a phone for surfing the net more is going to eat into available talk time. Just using a phone more is going to eat into available talk time. And let's face it, all those things, they way you can do it and how you can do it is going to eat into available talk time.

More important, until the technology improves, 3g will just make you use your iPhone more. And if after everything else, the one thing you don't want to happen is not have enough available talk time when you need to use your phone to phone.
post #170 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

'50% thicker and twice the weight' is a gross exaggeration.

It is an exaggeration.
I appreciate the counter example.
I wish you'd responded to what I was talking about, rather than picking at how much bigger/heavier. Ah well.
post #171 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

It is an exaggeration.
I appreciate the counter example.
I wish you'd responded to what I was talking about, rather than picking at how much bigger/heavier. Ah well.

Unfortunately one exaggeration or lie perpetrates another and somebody is going to use it as fact. Thus a perception becomes reality.

Only an idiot would condone it.
post #172 of 226
Quote:
But you do understand why the Euros do not see WM and Palm as being particularly strong competition. In Europe, and most of the rest of the world, they're not.

The same as Sony/Ericson and Nokia aren't strong competition in the US. But WM and Palm were more entrenched in the US.

Quote:
The majority of Euro postings to date seem to be closer to Aegis' point of view on most things iPhone-related than your own. I don't think this is really news to you.

I wouldn't say the majority. I think those are the ones who are most vocal. Their were several Euros who bought iPhones from the US and unlocked them before they were officially launched.

Quote:
What you seem to willfully ignore at every turn, though, is the fact that the iPhone's data use would be much more 'wildly successful' still if it had 3G.

What evidence do you have that this would happen? Certainly not based on current 3G data use.

Quote:
That's great Teno, but I'm sure if I had the time and desire, I could dig up five times more quotes that generally agree with aegis and disagree with you.

That's such linear thinking. My point was that Eruos are not homogeneous. Some like the iPhone, some don't care for it what it is now.

Quote:
I'm sure that many Euro consumers do find things in the iPhone to admire, but unfortunately, those things haven't been compelling enough to make many Euro consumers overlook the iPhone's weaknesses and/or price.

The 4 million in sales clearly shows their is a strong demand for the iPhone. Just not necessarily a strong demand for Orange, O2, or T-Mobile.
post #173 of 226
Quote:
I don't think I am reaching but perhaps you can remind me what 'major functionality' they've added. Or what you mean by not existing when the phone was first introduced other than a custom YouTube client and iTunes in Starbucks?

Apple had to write the YouTube app and the mobile iTunes from scratch and they both worked fine from day one. You may not consider these major features. But I haven't seen YouTube or music downloads as sophisticated on any other phone.

The Maps app has been completely rewritten. Here is what I was specifically talking about. Google Locate Me and Skyhook location software were not available when the iPhone was released.

Quote:
Of any smartphone, yes, I think it is. A fully implemented PIM is one of the cornerstones of smartphone-ness.

Whatever if missing for you is likely to come with the SDK. Someone will make it.

Hey, YouTube is a lot of fun.

Quote:
So you're saying Windows and Palm are actually pretty good?

No I wasn't really saying they were good. Only that they were entrenched competition.

Quote:
That's how I see it, and why Apple are successful in the USA and why I said it was low-hanging fruit.

I agree all someone had to do was come out with a better phone and would easily outsell WM or Palm. But up to this point no one did that. Not Nokia or S/E.

Quote:
However, it's resulted in a US market for smartphones that was only about 10% of the world's market..... until Apple came along and educated the USA as to why smartphones are cool. Couple it with some good marketing and persuading a carrier to not be such an arse and they have a hit there.

I wouldn't say that US consumers did not want or see the value in smartphones. What has been holding it back are the carriers, their plans and pricing. ATT and the iPhone have shown them all just how much demand their is for smartphones and how stupid they've all been about giving it to us.

Quote:
I'm an Apple fan. I'm disappointed that the 4 year old SE P910i I've already got is a better smartphone than Apple's new phone for me. Do you not think that's a sad situation to be in?

Not really. I'm an Apple fan too. But if I found some other product fit my needs better than an Apple product I would use the other that fit my needs. I certainly would not spend hours of my life complaining about it.


Quote:
1) Nokia managed to sell over 18 million smartphones in the quarter.

2) It shows there's a problem with the pricing or the product when it's not selling well.

Nokia sells multiple phones in multiple countries on multiple carriers. What one phone could Nokia sell in one country on one carrier for a premium price at a premium tariff and sell 20,000 of them?

Apple sold one phone in four countries on four carriers. Has sold 4 million in 8 months adding around $400 million in revenue.

Quote:
And our smartphone market is much bigger than the USA although ours only grew at 50-something percent and the USA grew at 222 percent, largely because of RIM and Apple.

Now that many of the barriers are down the US market will grow much larger.
post #174 of 226
Quote:
So, let's see... the Blackjack II is actually quite a bit lighter than the iPhone, is marginally shorter and narrower than the iPhone, and is only about 10% thicker. And has 3G

I think you either missed or conveniently ignored my response the last time you brought up the BlackJack 2. You leave out key differences in your comparison.

The Blackjack has a 2.4" 320x240 screen, 3.5" 320x480 on the iPhone.

The BlackJack has a 260MHz CPU, 640MHz CPU on the iPhone

The Blackjack has 128MB of storage, the iPhone has 8/16GB of storage.

The BlackJack has no touchscreen, the iPhone is totally a touchscreen.

This all makes a huge difference in battery life.
post #175 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Unfortunately one exaggeration or lie perpetrates another and somebody is going to use it as fact. Thus a perception becomes reality.

Fair enough. How much bigger and heavier do you think a 3G iPhone would have been (in July, and/or now)) - with HSPA and the same battery life. I was basing my estimate largely on the extra size required between the smallest 2G and smallest 3G phones now in shops (even they still have less battery life), and presuming the internals of the iPhone don't have any space left over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Only an idiot would condone it.

Take it easy, I'm not an idiot or a liar. If not to show a simple respect, do it to reinforce your argument by responding to the issue rather than attacking someone.
post #176 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

Fair enough. How much bigger and heavier do you think a 3G iPhone would have been (in July, and/or now)) - with HSPA and the same battery life. I was basing my estimate largely on the extra size required between the smallest 2G and smallest 3G phones now in shops (even they still have less battery life), and presuming the internals of the iPhone don't have any space left over.

I can't attest to this being true or false, but it is possible that in a year's time that improvements in 3G technology, battery density and power management will maintain the iPhone's current dimensions.
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post #177 of 226
Quote:
I can't attest to this being true or false, but it is possible that in a year's time that improvements in 3G technology, battery density and power management will maintain the iPhone's current dimensions.

That's the idea. We won't see 3G or GPS until they can fit into the iPhones dimensions and power requirements.
post #178 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

That's the idea. We won't see 3G or GPS until they can fit into the iPhones dimensions and power requirements.

Exactly!
post #179 of 226
I am from SE Asia and I am eagerly awaiting its release here. Last year I bought an iPod touch and am enjoying it. I like the multi touch screen feature very much that I badly want a cellphone with that feature.
post #180 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

That's the idea. We won't see 3G or GPS until they can fit into the iPhones dimensions and power requirements.

Sigh. Other people have managed it in smaller phones with better battery life and you still ignore the fact you can always switch it off to save battery life. It's a non issue.
post #181 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Apple had to write the YouTube app and the mobile iTunes from scratch and they both worked fine from day one. You may not consider these major features. But I haven't seen YouTube or music downloads as sophisticated on any other phone.

Then you've really not looked at what is going on in Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The Maps app has been completely rewritten. Here is what I was specifically talking about. Google Locate Me and Skyhook location software were not available when the iPhone was released.

But they were on other phones, although to be honest I prefer TomTom or MGMaps on my phone anyway.

I really don't consider these major feature updates. You might I guess having not had them for years already. What puzzles many people is they're spending time on secondary features when the phone's main features were lacking. Poor SMS, No MMS, Poor camera, No Video capture, No voice recording. Maybe if they had a todo list feature they could organise their development priorities correctly?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Whatever if missing for you is likely to come with the SDK. Someone will make it.

Some features though have to be done by Apple. No 3rd party is going to hack full IMAP support into Mobile Mail or add photo/video editing into the camera app for instance. We'll see when the SDK arrives as to how much of it is a private API and what isn't and also the licencing terms. I really hope they don't make developers sign their apps through an expensive signing policy or it'll stifle 3rd party open source development. I may start writing apps myself. I've a few I'd miss on my current phone which would be simple candidates to get my feet wet in iPhone development.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Hey, YouTube is a lot of fun.

For about 5 minutes. I'd rather have an email app that supports IMAP IDLE on any IMAP connection, not just Yahoo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I agree all someone had to do was come out with a better phone and would easily outsell WM or Palm. But up to this point no one did that. Not Nokia or S/E.

Nokia and SE *have*. Symbian has about 80% of the European market. Why the carriers haven't picked up these handsets for the US puzzles me. Some of it is being GSM only and also in the USA you go nuts for chiclet keypads like the Blackberry and Palm or QWERTY pads like the big HTCs. Here we don't so much. We've a much wider range of smartphones.

IIRC the Nokia CEO said a few years back that they didn't understand the USA. They built phones for Europe, for how they wanted phones, which is why they didn't build flip phones. Apple sometimes do this the opposite way around where Apple don't think of how Europe works. eg. European keyboards having keys in the wrong place, AppleTV not having SCART or any content, iPhone missing key European features and US style pricing structures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I wouldn't say that US consumers did not want or see the value in smartphones. What has been holding it back are the carriers, their plans and pricing. ATT and the iPhone have shown them all just how much demand their is for smartphones and how stupid they've all been about giving it to us.

Yep. That's what I said. Here on the other hand it's Apple and their carriers that are holding back sales of the iPhone by pricing it out of reach and restricting it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Not really. I'm an Apple fan too. But if I found some other product fit my needs better than an Apple product I would use the other that fit my needs. I certainly would not spend hours of my life complaining about it.

Although you're spending much more time than I am defending it.

I need a new phone soon to replace the P910i which is looking a little battle worn after 4 years. I've tried a few, including the P990 (too buggy) and N95 (no touch screen). I love the iPhone UI and Safari but it's missing some features I need that would require me still having to carry another phone. I also think it'd be silly to buy a phone that isn't 3G in 2008. Spending hours bitching on Apple forums either way probably isn't going to change anything I guess but I quite like venting my frustration on the lack of ANY phone available currently that does what I want in one package.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Nokia sells multiple phones in multiple countries on multiple carriers. What one phone could Nokia sell in one country on one carrier for a premium price at a premium tariff and sell 20,000 of them?

It's not getting through to you yet is it?

Nobody in Europe does that, except Apple, which is why they aren't selling 18 million phones a quarter and are only selling a few hundred thousand in the biggest smartphone market. Early days I guess and I'm all for building a market organically and slowly but it'd be a pity to see it falter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Apple sold one phone in four countries on four carriers. Has sold 4 million in 8 months adding around $400 million in revenue.

90% of which was in the USA, a market with almost no smartphone competition. You may think of WM/RIM/Palm as the entrenched competition but it's a tiny niche market in the USA so at that stage of a market it's easy to become a leader. Here it's not so small a niche and they've got competition from Symbian, who are like Apple in the MP3 market. Here, Apple managed to release a Zune.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Now that many of the barriers are down the US market will grow much larger.

Yep. Has to be good for everyone. Apple entering the market has stirred up a stagnant market and I really hope the Symbian, Microsoft, RIM and even Palm are raising their game to match.
post #182 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Sigh. Other people have managed it in smaller phones with better battery life and you still ignore the fact you can always switch it off to save battery life. It's a non issue.

Did these phones have equivalent technologies, or were they trading off in other areas?

Or take a similar touch screen model - the LG touch screen is 3G I think... does it have the same battery life etc. Is it the same size? Similar speed processor? (even though software is substantially different, of course).

(not a rhetorical question.. genuinely wondering. If I get a chance I'll look myself, just figure you must know to have such a self assured answer)

edit: BTW - no argument that Apple could 3G technologies are getting smaller & more power efficient - Apple could release a 3G iPhone in the next few months of the same size. I'm just saying that in the balance of designing the iPhone, a year ago Apple said 3G wasn't worth it, mostly (or all) due to extra size.
post #183 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

Did these phones have equivalent technologies, or were they trading off in other areas?

Or take a similar touch screen model - the LG touch screen is 3G I think... does it have the same battery life etc. Is it the same size? Similar speed processor? (even though software is substantially different, of course).

These expensive, oft compared phones to the iPhone also don't have 3G:

— LG Prada KE850
— RIM BlackBerry Curve 8300
— RIM BlackBerry Pearl 8100

Note: If there are newer ones that have 3G, then please post them. I'm merely posting info based on data ferreted from Google searches. Please don't mention the Meizu M8, it doesn't exist.
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post #184 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I can't attest to this being true or false, but it is possible that in a year's time that improvements in 3G technology, battery density and power management will maintain the iPhone's current dimensions.

There is no room left inside. That's been documented.

But adding 3G won't necessarily mean more room will be required. Adding a 3G chipset, will mean a replacement of what's inside now, not something that will be in addition.

Newer chipsets have more functionality, thats old news. I'm not concerned.

This goes for GPS as well.
post #185 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

There is no room left inside. That's been documented.

But adding 3G won't necessarily mean more room will be required. Adding a 3G chipset, will mean a replacement of what's inside now, not something that will be in addition.

Newer chipsets have more functionality, thats old news. I'm not concerned.

This goes for GPS as well.

My comment about "current dimensions" was regarding maintaining the same battery life with a 3G chipset, as aopposed to making it thicker with a larger battery or keeping it the same size while reducing the usage time. I have no doubt that a 3G chipset could be wedged in there... especially now.

Personally, I'd take one three times as thick and heavy if it meant that it would include 3G and the additional space would be all battery. I rarely use my iPhone for calls, it's all Mail and Safari.

Sidenote: For the first time I'm feeling the woes of not having Flash on the iPhone. I'm into FaceBook's Sracbulous game but can't play it on the iPhone. It's the perfect game while roaming.
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post #186 of 226
Quote:
Then you've really not looked at what is going on in Europe. But they were on other phones, although to be honest I prefer TomTom or MGMaps on my phone anyway.

Fair enough. But I say again if you like these then why worry about the iPhone?

Quote:
I'd rather have an email app that supports IMAP IDLE on any IMAP connection, not just Yahoo.

Push mail is nice, but not really an absolute must have feature. I would say having email client that can fully render HTML is more important.

Quote:
Poor SMS

You type and send a message, someone sends you a message back. What else do you need?

Quote:
No MMS

I don't care

Quote:
Poor camera

I've got a real camera and don't care.

Quote:
No Video capture

Video recordings from phones look like crap.

Quote:
No voice recording.

I can only see limited use of voice recording. I don't see why it would be a requirement.

Quote:
Spending hours bitching on Apple forums either way probably isn't going to change anything I guess but I quite like venting my frustration on the lack of ANY phone available currently that does what I want in one package.

Hhmm, you have to be at the very tip of the pyramid on Maslows hierarchy of needs to get to a phone causing you that much problem.

Quote:
Nobody in Europe does that, except Apple, which is why they aren't selling 18 million phones a quarter and are only selling a few hundred thousand in the biggest smartphone market. Early days I guess and I'm all for building a market organically and slowly but it'd be a pity to see it falter.

At this point Apple does not expect to sell and likely could not supply 18 million phones a quarter. The few hundred thousand only reflect the number of iPhone customers on O2, Orange, and T-Mobile. This numbers does not reflect over all iPhone sales.

Quote:
90% of which was in the USA, a market with almost no smartphone competition.

About half of the iPhones are in the USA.

Quote:
You may think of WM/RIM/Palm as the entrenched competition but it's a tiny niche market in the USA so at that stage of a market it's easy to become a leader.

Its a stretch to call smartphones a tiny niche. The US smartphone market has had average growth of over 200% since 2006.

Quote:
Apple managed to release a Zune.

The iPhone is analogus to the Zune if the Zune sold 4 million units in seven months and earned MS a half billion dollars in revenue.

Which we all know the Zune did not do, soooo they aren't really the same.
post #187 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I think you either missed or conveniently ignored my response the last time you brought up the BlackJack 2. You leave out key differences in your comparison.

Actually, I don't even remember reading such a response. I must've gotten bored of your 'Apple marketing department' talking points in whichever thread that was and wandered away. Sorry.


Quote:
The Blackjack has a 2.4" 320x240 screen, 3.5" 320x480 on the iPhone.

The BlackJack has a 260MHz CPU, 640MHz CPU on the iPhone

The Blackjack has 128MB of storage, the iPhone has 8/16GB of storage.

The BlackJack has no touchscreen, the iPhone is totally a touchscreen.

This all makes a huge difference in battery life.

You repeatedly say "the Blackjack"... do you mean the Blackjack or the Blackjack II? I was referring to the 'Jack II. I'll assume you were talking about the latter.

And you're right that the 'Jack II doesn't have quite as big a screen as the iPhone (though bigger than most phones), the cpu is slower, etc. That would influence power draw, but I don't know that the difference would be absolutely "huge" unless you're prepared to quantify exactly how much difference it really is. I'll just say its significant.

One thing we can say pretty much for certain is that lower power-draw 3G chipsets have already showed up. If you wish to be a stickler for a (non-)apples to apples comparison, note that the Blackjack II has 7 hours talk time compared to the Blackjack I's 3 hours. And the screen size, cpu, and other power-using functionality isn't hugely different between those two models.

The one major difference is that the 'Jack II has about 40% more battery capacity, but that alone doesn't seem to come near explaining such a huge improvement in talk time (a 133% improvement over the original Blackjack).

So, where is the rest of the improvement coming from? Well, a more power-efficient chipset/better power management would seem to be about the only thing that could reasonably explain it... unless Samsung found a way to stuff an incredibly tiny hamster and treadmill into the case.

Its funny... I remember when defenders of Apple's 2.5G strategy said, back at the US launch, "3G? You do realize that 3G smartphones only have 2-3 hours of battery life, right?". Well, not anymore, baby.

So, 3G chipsets have already gotten better power consumption-wise, as we can see, and it only took a few short months after the US launch. I think we can safely lay to rest any fears of a ginormous brick of a 3G iPhone, and stop using the battery life boogeyman as an excuse.

Even Jobs has said that he expects that energy efficient-enough 3G chipsets will be available later this year... though I suspect that he may be fudging that a bit, if I'm parsing my Steve-speak correctly (and my batting average there has been pretty good).

After all, Samsung has been enjoying the benefits of more efficient 3G chipsets since at least November (when the 'Jack II was released). You'd have to think that if Samsung could do it, Apple could too... except perhaps for the fact that Apple honestly thought they could skate through the Euro launch with 2.5G.

It's sad to see the poor Euro sales disabusing Apple of that notion... and me out of some of my stock value. \


...
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post #188 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

[Re: poor iPhone SMS]You type and send a message, someone sends you a message back. What else do you need?

Wow, that's quite a backpedal/reversal, coming from someone who's stated to me time and time again how worried they were that all the features on the iPhone be as user-friendly as possible, and who used that as an excuse why the iPhone has so many missing features (like MMS, voice-dialing, etc).


Quote:
I don't care [about no MMS].

Yeah, well, the market doesn't care that you don't care, and they're voting with their pocketbooks over in Europe.


Quote:
I've got a real camera and don't care [that the iPhone's camera isn't great]

Again, the Euro market doesn't care that you don't care. Other high-end phones over there routinely have 3.2 or 5.0 megapixel cameras, and the iPhone isn't competing well there.


Quote:
Video recordings from phones look like crap.

Wow, talk about a defeatist outlook. Aside from the fact that there are a few high-end phones whose video recordings don't look like crap, wouldn't a proper attitude be that, if something is broken, Apple would be a company who'd be able to fix it?


Quote:
I can only see limited use of voice recording. I don't see why it would be a requirement.

I don't see that one as a dealbreaker, but it is something that you see even on cheap phones nowadays.


Quote:
Its a stretch to call smartphones a tiny niche. The US smartphone market has had average growth of over 200% since 2006.

Even so, it is a pretty small portion of the market. Even with the recent growth spurt, smartphone sales are only 11% of the US market.


Quote:
The iPhone is analogus to the Zune if the Zune sold 4 million units in seven months and earned MS a half billion dollars in revenue.

Which we all know the Zune did not do, soooo they aren't really the same.

In the US, you're right, they're not the same. But in Europe, yeah, the iPhone is kind of a Zune, unfortunately. \


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post #189 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Fair enough. But I say again if you like these then why worry about the iPhone?

Because the iPhone has a better interface and better industrial design. I also like Apple products in general. Love the iPods I've owned since the first generation 5 gig. Love my Macbook and all the past Macs I've owned since 1989.
Quote:
Push mail is nice, but not really an absolute must have feature. I would say having email client that can fully render HTML is more important.

I disagree. I'd rather have push mail than rendering. The most important part of any mail that's not SPAM is the text.
Quote:
You type and send a message, someone sends you a message back. What else do you need?

How about being able to forward messages? Cut and paste? A friend sends me a recipe, or directions on how to get to a club, or technical instructions on how to do just about anything, and I want to send it to someone else. How do I do that with the iPhone? Write the whole thing down with a pencil then retype it and send?
Quote:
I don't care [about no MMS]

Many people do. At work, when I had an error on a printed sheet I wanted to share with my client, my 3 year-old Sony Ericsson was perfect for showing them exactly what the error was, by simply sending them a photo in 10 seconds.
Quote:
I've got a real camera and don't care.

So do I. I've got a great P&S and also a very nice DSLR setup. But there are still times when the camera on my phone comes in handy.
post #190 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The same as Sony/Ericson and Nokia aren't strong competition in the US. But WM and Palm were more entrenched in the US.

Great, you take my point.


Quote:
I wouldn't say the majority. I think those are the ones who are most vocal. Their were several Euros who bought iPhones from the US and unlocked them before they were officially launched.

Sigh. If you can't understand that the iPhone has landed with a bit of a dull thud across the pond by now, Teno, I don't know what to tell you. An 'anecdotal few' that love their iPhones is great, but doesn't count for much in the larger scheme of things. Euro sales are disappointing, no matter how you slice it. So what's not to get?


Quote:
What evidence do you have that this would happen? Certainly not based on current 3G data use.

Wow.... you've been told again and again that its all about user experience (and I find it hard to imagine that even Jobs himself would disagree in the end, since he's all about user experience, unless aesthetics or dollar signs get in the way), and you get told time and time again by Euro users that their 2.5G networks (mostly GPRS)... suck. And you still can't put two and two together?

Teno, teno, teno... time for you to enroll in the TBaggins School of Remedial Logic for the Terminally Obtuse. The sad thing is, I think even you know you're full of it on this one.


Quote:
That's such linear thinking. My point was that Eruos are not homogeneous. Some like the iPhone, some don't care for it what it is now.

Sure. But the problem is, membership in the latter group seems quite a bit larger than in the former group, judging by the only metric Apple truly cares about... sales.


Quote:
The 4 million in sales clearly shows their is a strong demand for the iPhone. Just not necessarily a strong demand for Orange, O2, or T-Mobile.

So, now it's all the carriers' faults? LOL. And who picked the carriers to partner with? That's right... Apple.

And of course, most of those 4 million sales weren't in Europe, too.

Teno, stop spinning, and realize that, in a market as tough and sophisticated as the European cellphone market, Apple would very likely do better by giving the customer what they want, rather than trying to argue them into liking what Apple thinks they should want.

.
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post #191 of 226
Quote:
You repeatedly say "the Blackjack"... do you mean the Blackjack or the Blackjack II? I was referring to the 'Jack II. I'll assume you were talking about the latter.

I said Black Jack 2 in the prefacing sentence I figured you could put it all together.

Quote:
And you're right that the 'Jack II doesn't have quite as big a screen as the iPhone (though bigger than most phones), the cpu is slower, etc. That would influence power draw, but I don't know that the difference would be absolutely "huge" unless you're prepared to quantify exactly how much difference it really is. I'll just say its significant.

iPhones screen is full inch larger. The iPhone CPU is three times faster. The difference is enough that you cannot do a direct comparison in that way.
post #192 of 226
Quote:
Because the iPhone has a better interface and better industrial design. I also like Apple products in general. Love the iPods I've owned since the first generation 5 gig. Love my Macbook and all the past Macs I've owned since 1989.

I think its fine that you love Apple products. But you have to put this all into context. Apple has been in the mobile phone business for 8 months, Nokia has been in the mobile phone business for over 20 years.

Jobs has said they will add software and design new phones. Which means if you really want an iPhone but don't want the current one. You'll have to wait patiently until they build the one you want.

Quote:
I disagree. I'd rather have push mail than rendering. The most important part of any mail that's not SPAM is the text.

These days email is less and less text based. Often graphics and pictures are as integral to the information as the text.

Quote:
How about being able to forward messages? Cut and paste? A friend sends me a recipe, or directions on how to get to a club, or technical instructions on how to do just about anything, and I want to send it to someone else. How do I do that with the iPhone?

Cut and paste would pretty much solve these problems. Apple has acknowledged this and said they are working on it.

Quote:
Many people do. At work, when I had an error on a printed sheet I wanted to share with my client, my 3 year-old Sony Ericsson was perfect for showing them exactly what the error was, by simply sending them a photo in 10 seconds.

On the iPhone you can take a picture and email it in seconds.

Quote:
So do I. I've got a great P&S and also a very nice DSLR setup. But there are still times when the camera on my phone comes in handy.

The iPhone has a camera. But no mobile phone camera will provide the quality of the newest dedicated point and shoot.
post #193 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I said Black Jack 2 in the prefacing sentence I figured you could put it all together.

Cool.


Quote:
iPhones screen is full inch larger. The iPhone CPU is three times faster. The difference is enough that you cannot do a direct comparison in that way.

I wonder, though, if the difference is as big as you make it out to be.

For instance, in notebooks, which, after all, have a much larger display than the iPhone (and unlike the iPhone, it's always on- the iPhone's cuts out during a call), the display is roughly 30 percent of the power draw. A lot, but far from the whole enchilada.

And the CPU? Well, is the iPhone's cpu always running full blast? I doubt it is during a call, since even much slower cpus seem adequate to that task.

Your points are well taken, but even in a 'Jack I to 'Jack II comparison, which is more your style, we can see that 3G chipsets have already gotten better on power. Given that, I just wonder what the hold up is over at Apple, since the main excuse Steve-o gives for no 3G yet is battery life, and Apple of course would LOVE to have its 3G model out ASAP, for a timely Asian launch and to improve thus-far poor Euro sales. \

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post #194 of 226
Quote:
Sigh. If you can't understand that the iPhone has landed with a bit of a dull thud across the pond by now, Teno, I don't know what to tell you.

The iPhone in Europe has earned Apple around 140 million in revenue in two months. That would be a dull thud from the volume of money hitting the table.

Quote:
you get told time and time again by Euro users that their 2.5G networks (mostly GPRS)... suck. And you still can't put two and two together?

I understand that. But I am looking at real world data use. O2 reported that 60% of its iPhone customers are heavy data users. While only 2% of every other phone on its network used as much data.

Quote:
So, now it's all the carriers' faults? LOL. And who picked the carriers to partner with? That's right... Apple. Teno, stop spinning, and realize that, in a market as tough and sophisticated as the European cellphone market, Apple would very likely do better by giving the customer what they want, rather than trying to argue them into liking what Apple thinks they should want.

No I'm not necessarily saying its all the carriers fault either. But what I am saying is their are over a million and a half iPhones out there not on one of these networks. Where these phones are exactly we don't know. What we do know is that O2, Orange, and T-Mobile sales do not reflect the full demand of the iPhone. They only reflect the demand of the services they are offering.
post #195 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I understand that. But I am looking at real world data use. O2 reported that 60% of its iPhone customers are heavy data users. While only 2% of every other phone on its network used as much data.

Some of that may be driven by the structure of the plans in question, but I would agree that ppl are browsing more on the iPhone than competing smartphones. Which is to be expected, since Safari, a real web browser, is a nicer user experience than your typical smartphone minibrowser. I've told you this before.

What you're missing, again, is that that's only half the battle... you still need a good connection to have a truly great user experience, and GPRS ain't it, unless you think a 28.8 modem is a great user experience.

iPhone data usage is high on the iPhone even without 3G? Great. But with 3G, data usage on the iPhone would be insanely great.

To think that 3G won't have a big impact on data usage is patently absurd. It'd be like saying that dial-up users use as much data as broadband users. They don't, both for reasons of practicality and of user experience. But I guess you can argue the point and look nuts. I'd kind of like that, as its been a rough day thus far and I could use the laugh.


Quote:
On the iPhone you can take a picture and email it in seconds.

Sure, if you know the email addresses of all the dozens or hundred of ppl you might possibly want to send a pic to. This is why most ppl prefer MMS... you need only know the phone number, and you've already got that info. Even with email systems that are based on your phone number ('2134332387@vzwpix.net', for example), you usually still need to know what carrier said person is on, and again, who the eff knows that for everyone you know? And who the eff would want to?

The market's already spoken on this one, and it seems to like MMS, for practical reasons. But I guess Apple can keep trying to argue that email is the way to go, and keep losing sales. Ugh. \


Quote:
The iPhone has a camera. But no mobile phone camera will provide the quality of the newest dedicated point and shoot.

And the few ppl who care about getting the absolute highest-quality possible shot, bar none, will go with a seperate device for taking pictures. But everyone else will go, "Gee, wouldn't it be more convenient to just have the best possible camera in the phone? After all, I am certainly PAYING enough for it. And I thought the idea of the iPhone was to be a multifunction device in the first place... iPod, Internet, and phone, all in one. Even your commercials hype that point. So NOW you're telling me 'Go carry a seperate camera?!?'. What exactly have you been smoking???".



Quote:
No I'm not necessarily saying its all the carriers fault either. But what I am saying is their are over a million and a half iPhones out there not on one of these networks. Where these phones are exactly we don't know. What we do know is that O2, Orange, and T-Mobile sales do not reflect the full demand of the iPhone. They only reflect the demand of the services they are offering.

The 'missing' iPhones are either unlocked (and thus distributed all over the world, not just in Europe) or are in inventory somewhere, whether in official channels or the gray market.

What of it? It doesn't impress me much to say, "Well okay, Euro sales have been crappy but they're not quite as crappy as we think because there's some Euro unlockers out there." Because even if you add in unlockers and inventory, as Apple DID when it trotted out its '4 million sold' (actually, shipped) sales figure, Apple is still well below pace to hit its '10 million in 12 months' goal.

The Asian launch should help some, if its timely enough, as could the launches in Italy and Spain (though it should be noted that Italy is even more into 3G than the rest of Europe)... but at the same time, the iPhone's biggest market, the US, is entering recession. Not good.


Quote:
The iPhone in Europe has earned Apple around 140 million in revenue in two months. That would be a dull thud from the volume of money hitting the table.

LOL. I'm sure I could quote Zune revenues that sound impressive too, but no one argues that the Zune is a big success. I'm sure I could've done it for the AppleTV and G4 Cube as well.

Teno, your ostrich imitation isn't useful, and few ppl share it. There were Euro targets for the iPhone, and they were missed. Get used to it, until Apple actually gives the Euros what they want. \


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post #196 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The iPhone in Europe has earned Apple around 140 million in revenue in two months. That would be a dull thud from the volume of money hitting the table.

That is an extra 140M that Apple wouldn't have if they waited a year for a 3G version to be ready. Why so many have an all-or-nothing attitude toward the iPhone is beyond me.

PS: haha Nice metaphor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Sure, if you know the email addresses of all the dozens or hundred of ppl you might possibly want to send a pic to. This is why most ppl prefer MMS... you need only know the phone number.

The argument of having to know the the correct email doesn't fly with the iPhone. It syncs with Outlook and Address Book very well. That info is always at your fingertips. All you need to know is their name.

That said, I do think MMS should be there for those who want it, even though I am not a user of MMS or the camera.
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post #197 of 226
Quote:
Sure, if you know the email addresses of all the dozens or hundred of ppl you might possibly want to send a pic to. This is why most ppl prefer MMS... you need only know the phone number.

I saw a survey from Nokia asking about the most used mobile phone services and email was number one. I cannot find that survey again. But here is another recent one that says much the same thing.

"A survey conducted by online usability and accessibility expert Webcredible has identified email as the most desired service for mobile phone users. When asked 'Which service would you use on your mobile/cell phone if speed & quality weren't an issue?', 33% stated that email would be their number one priority. Social networking followed closely behind with 25% of the votes.."

Quote:
"Gee, wouldn't it be more convenient to just have the best possible camera in the phone?

Not necessarily. Adding the best camera would either increase the size of the device or decreased other hardware to make space. I'd rather have 8/16GB of storage than a better camera.
post #198 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That is an extra 140M that Apple wouldn't have if they waited a year for a 3G version to be ready. Why so many have an all-or-nothing attitude toward the iPhone is beyond me.

You've got to think longer term than two months, though.

What's the revenue delta, long-term, between the iPhone walking into Europe with 3G and MMS and the locals going fairly crazy for it, and the present situation, where the iPhone underwhelmed Europe? How much does that hurt the brand and future Euro sales? Hard to quantify, but I'm sure Apple didn't count on this reception.


Quote:
The argument of having to know the the correct email doesn't fly with the iPhone. It syncs with Outlook and Address Book very well. That info is always at your fingertips. All you need to know is their name.

Yeah, but phone numbers are portable (when you change carriers, your number stays the same), email addys are not, always... say when someone changes a job. MMS is just more convenient for a lot of ppl, since its phone number-based and that's the only piece of info you need.


Quote:
That said, I do think MMS should be there for those who want it, even though I am not a user of MMS or the camera.

Great. But I think you'll agree that a lot of ppl who send pics use MMS, even if you yourself do not. Ditto the camera.

.
Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
To the 'We Didn't Need It' Crowd/Apple Apologista Squad : Wrong again, lol
Thanks for listening to your...
Reply
Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
To the 'We Didn't Need It' Crowd/Apple Apologista Squad : Wrong again, lol
Thanks for listening to your...
Reply
post #199 of 226
Quote:
What of it? It doesn't impress me much to say, "Well okay, Euro sales have been crappy but they're not quite as crappy as we think because there's some Euro unlockers out there."

There are more iPhones being used in Europe than the 90,000 being used on Orange France, or the 190,000 being used on O2 UK, or the 70,000 being used on T-Mobile Germany.

These numbers do not reflect the total demand for the iPhone in Europe only the demand for iPhone use on Orange, O2, and T-Mobile.

Quote:
LOL. I'm sure I could quote Zune revenues that sound impressive too, but no one argues that the Zune is a big success. I'm sure I could've done it for the AppleTV and G4 Cube as well.

I'm not sure how you can make the Zune sound any better than it is. It did not make 100 million in 2 months.

Quote:
Teno, your ostrich imitation isn't useful, and few ppl share it. There were Euro targets for the iPhone, and they were missed. Get used to it, until Apple actually gives the Euros what they want.

What's funny about this statement is that you are really the one who is only looking at this one way. You want to say Euro sales were disappointing and that's it, nothing else. Its highly unlikely any other phone by itself can or has sold 330,000 units and made its manufacturer nearly 1.5 million in one quarter.

I've said Euro sales are not exceptional. I've said they are likely in line with what most other phones are selling. The part where we differ is as long as everyone is making a healthy profit they are all satisfied. You don't want that to be satisfactory until they sell some certain amount.
post #200 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I saw a survey from Nokia asking about the most used mobile phone services and email was number one. I cannot find that survey again. But here is another recent one that says much the same thing.

You're reaching.


Quote:
Not necessarily. Adding the best camera would either increase the size of the device or decreased other hardware to make space. I'd rather have 8/16GB of storage than a better camera.

You're really reaching.

.
Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
To the 'We Didn't Need It' Crowd/Apple Apologista Squad : Wrong again, lol
Thanks for listening to your...
Reply
Cut-copy-paste, MMS, landscape keyboard, video-recording, voice-calling, and more... FINALLY
To the 'We Didn't Need It' Crowd/Apple Apologista Squad : Wrong again, lol
Thanks for listening to your...
Reply
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