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MacBook Air demand trails that of original Intel-based MacBook - Page 4

post #121 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

That is an interesting point. It is believable that if you can attract top executives with
a stylish, expensive portable laptop and get them hooked on Mac OS, they might be
inclined to direct their underlings to investigate Macs for the enterprise.

Not a chance in hell. The very upper levels of the executive staff may have some control but the so called underlings are very much at the mercy of the IT department.

dave
post #122 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

.


Ports probably wouldn't add much weight but would likely require the machine to be thicker. A bigger HD would require going from a 1.8 version to the 2.5 - I don't see how that could not increase weight and likely size as well. An optical drive would also add size and weight.

I disagree. I really think they would not have increased weight or forced them to enlarge the case. However they save money in material cost (and frankly make it look better) by not including them and I truly believe that was the decision.
post #123 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

They could have gone with the 160GB 1.8" drive - that wouldn't have been as big of a size jump as going with a 2.5" drive.

This is true, but the 160 is a two platter drive and is thicker.
post #124 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

What makes you think the pricing would be a lot better? Ultralights are more expensive than regular notebooks.

yeah and they don't sell well because of it. Worst they don't have to be expensive.
Quote:

No it's not. It's possible to be profitable in a niche.

Sure but even Apple has failed trying to make niche markets. That is why this guy gets compared to the Cube. Frankly it looks like jobs making the same mistakes over and over again.
Quote:

But the cost/return is comparable. A car that costs twice as much isn't going to be twice the car. It'll be nicer, have a few gimmicky features, but in all, the diminishing returns takes hold.
post #125 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by emoney35 View Post

I personally wouldn't buy a MBA until they lower the price a few hundred dollars. The premium for the portability is too high in my opinion.

The premium for portability IS high, but therein lies the issue, is it going to be worth it to catch enough buyers, and there is a question of what "enough buyers" means.

I don't think forum goers are representative of the buying public, so the two should not be treated as interchangeable.
post #126 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

yeah and they don't sell well because of it. Worst they don't have to be expensive.

How do you know that they don't have to be expensive? Making components smaller, thinner and lower power consuming requires components that are more expensive to make. Sometimes they require chips that are harder to make because of the fab process needed to make them. For others, like the Air and X61S, it needs to meet a harder-to-come-by "bin" requirement that the chip manages to meet a lower power rating.
post #127 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

This "too expensive" and "underpowered" ultraportable offers performance in the same class as some dual-G5 pro towers that people somehow manage to keep working with. (And not "just surfing.") It's certainly faster than most computers out there in the world that people are using every day for a whole range of things.

I'd agree with the above and that is why I don't have a problem with the processor.
Quote:
It outruns many current Windows notebooks and especially ultraportables. It also has a bigger screen in a smaller volume unit--making it a BETTER ultraportable. (But with fewer ports, a poorer "desktop replacement.")

This size issue is what I do have a problem with. One it takes up more area. Second volume doesn't mean a lot if the most basic of I/O is ignored.
Quote:

And with all that, it's still CHEAPER than many Windows ultraportables. And even cheaper than some high-end mainstream notebooks and desktops--the larger, more powerful ones. People do spend $1800 on a computer sometimes and still make rent. Some of them will find the Air to be a good choice--better than the ultraportables that have come before it.

There are some that likely will find use for an AIR. The problem is I don't see enough of those people laying out the cash to sustain the units production.
Quote:

Mac sales have taken off, notebook sales in general are a huge market, and therefore the mainstream MacBook is a BIG seller. If the Air, released for a smaller (but still important) ultraportable market is coming anywhere close to mainstream MacBook sales at any stores, that's surprising to me.

In the first month or two I'm not surprised at all considering Apple customer base. It is what happens after the honeymoon is over that makes the difference.
Quote:

Now let's start criticizing the iPod Classic because it lacks a touch screen and is selling "poorly" compared to the mainstream Nano Be sure to note that the Classic costs SHOCKINGLY MORE than the Nano, and of course pretend that there's no justification for that. Because, like maximum portability in notebooks, maximum capacity in media players is not the top priority for most buyers. And products should not exist for any group except the majority

Now that is just over the board ignorance. One due to the iPods being a significantly different market. And two you totally dismiss what many are saying here. Which is by the way, that the AIR has a lot of potential but Apple blew it bad with this model and its lack of I/O. I/O by the way that would not of impacted the design of the unit significantly nor the price. The complaints about the high price are largely due to what you are not getting out of AIR not about what it is.

Dave
post #128 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Ahh but you are still missing the point, those trucks still have the basic hardware that allows them to sell well to those that buy them. That is a base of features that modern transportation requires.

You're defining "basic hardware" to be a radio and heater. I consider it the ability to seat four people. Your analogy that any car/truck meets mainstream needs while the air doesn't, doesn't hold up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Everyone as I see the market.

Well I guess since I'm included in "everyone" I've already proven that wrong. People said the same about floppy disks, and yet here we are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

All I'm saying is that the numbers are good for nothing more than marketing. Most users simply won't care and walking into the store they are not going to see and size advantage at all.

Your opinion, the fact that so many have put forth being impressed by the form factor seems to discount your guess of what "most people" think. And people do make notebook buying decisions based on size and weight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Acknowledge that it is what physically bigger? I just don't see the advantage of leaving stuff out to reduce weight.

Acknowledge that smaller and ligher is an advantage. You've already made it perfectly clear that you don't find value in that advantage, or consider it worth the tradeoffs, at least you could admit the advantage exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

No it doesn't. At least not in the electronics industry. The whole premise of the modern electronic IC is that smaller is cheaper is more capability.

That's true in the case of a chip, but people aren't buying an individual chip. They're buying a computer, which includes many parts including keyboard, display, IO, storage, cooling, power, etc. Until someone can figure out how to put the monitor and keyboard (and everything else) on a chip, putting together a laptop has design constraints that mean smaller=more expensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Well if they don't exist it is pretty had to find a machine isn't it. Instead look at something like the ASUS Eee PC and the packaging density they achieved there. Not that I want to imagine an AIR with Eee PC performance just that there is nothing fancy happening with respect to the electronics in AIR.

You just provided your own rebuttal. The Eee has a fraction of the memory, drive space (flash), performance, and a seven inch screen. If anything, it shows that you have to cut corners in a huge way to get drastic size and weight reductions.

If it's really so easy to make a comparable machine for hundreds less (and add ports and other stuff in the process), why isn't some other company doing it? Why not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

yeah and they don't sell well because of it. Worst they don't have to be expensive.

If they don't have to be, then why are they expensive? If it was possible to sell an ultraportable for way cheaper, why doesn't some company do it and sell a boatload?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Sure but even Apple has failed trying to make niche markets. That is why this guy gets compared to the Cube. Frankly it looks like jobs making the same mistakes over and over again.

The cube was released in 2000. The apple hifi was another apple flop, and the aTV is a question mark with the new software update. When you look at what the company has done right since 2000, is "making the same mistakes over and over again" really the best way to describe the situation?
post #129 of 190
I guess to some the MBA has to be the best selling Mac computer ever, if not it's a failure, just because the laptop is not for them, they want it to fail so they can say i told you so but unfortunately for them it won't.
post #130 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adjei View Post

I guess to some the MBA has to be the best selling Mac computer ever, if not it's a failure, just because the laptop is not for them, they want it to fail so they can say i told you so but unfortunately for them it won't.

Absolutely.

To put things in context, apple sold 1.3 million laptops last quarter. Even if air sales are only about 8 percent of all of their laptops sold, that's still 100k units. Which grosses the company upwards of 180 million. Even if they only sell 13 thousand airs (one percent of their laptop sales), that's a gross of 23 million for the company.

What do people think the R&D costs for this unit were to imagine a situation where apple actually loses money on the model? This thing doesn't have to be a huge seller for apple to come out ahead on it, is it really so horrible that apple took a risk with this model?
post #131 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

Absolutely.

To put things in context, apple sold 1.3 million laptops last quarter. Even if air sales are only about 8 percent of all of their laptops sold, that's still 100k units. Which grosses the company upwards of 180 million. Even if they only sell 13 thousand airs, that's a gross of 23 million for the company.

What do people think the R&D costs for this unit were to imagine a situation where apple actually loses money on the model? This thing doesn't have to be a huge seller for apple to come out ahead on it, is it really so horrible that apple took a risk with this model?

Yea! at least the sales on the air will pay for their superbowl commercial ... partially

I agree apple not making a lot of money on this will be no big deal. The R&D benefits of this miniaturization will help future products.
post #132 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by davebarnes View Post

1. I own a 1999 BMW Z3.
2. I just bought an AirBook.

See me fit into target demo precisely. -- except that I never visit Starbucks.

I knew I was on to something.
post #133 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

Well I'd hardly call starting most threads with "Jobs is a crook, Apple is out to rip you off, and you're all fanboy suckers" fact based, but we enjoy the irony.

You're wack! Show where I've said any of that. I could now call you a LIAR but I'm a nice guy.
post #134 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

1)
Not to mention PC users who come in to check out the air and walk out with a MB or MBP instead - while it's not a sale of the air, it's still an increase in marketshare because of it.

.

Now that does make sense.
post #135 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by iextreme View Post

I always find it amusing how people almost always trash the findings made by researchers... funny.

I think what the article was trying to convey is that if the MBA had had a lower price point, a lot more people would be buying it.

Well, duh. If a Ferrari had a lower price point, more people would be buying it, too.

The MBA is priced competitively for the market it is in. It doesn't need to compete on price with the MacBook any more than Ferrari needs to compete on price with a Hyundai.
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post #136 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by emoney35 View Post

I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that 1.6 GHz is one of the slower processor speeds out there for a new computer/laptop. As I mentioned above, you can pay less money for a faster Macbook with a minimal increase in actual physical size.

ROTFLMAO. I'll take your bet.

1.6 GHz is one of the FASTEST CPUs in the ultralight segment. The Sony that it is most frequently compared to is 1.0 or 1.2 GHz.
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post #137 of 190
I've read so much arrant rubbish in this thread, I felt compelled for the first time in years to post.

1. MBA offers less value than other Mac portable options

Great, so buy the other Mac product that offers better value.

2. MBA would be better if Apple just added “insert your favorite feature here”

Perhaps it would. But they didn’t. So if you NEED “favorite feature here”, buy a machine that has it. Or wait for rev.2 of the MBA to come, cost/component availability may have changed by then so you can buy it.

3. The “processor/hard drive/SSD” is too “slow/small/expensive”

So wait a year. It’ll be faster/bigger/cheaper. Guaranteed.

4. If Apple only lowered the price, they’d sell more of these.

Not if they can’t produce any more than they can sell at this price right now. Very basic economics.


5. The average user really wants “alternate feature set found only in MB or MBP”

Great, so sales of MBA won’t cut into sales of MB or MBP that would have been made to the average user.


6. The MBA is “less portable” than other Apple products.

Well, this is true if you’re comparing it to the iPod line or the iPhone. Otherwise it’s a cretinous statement.


7. The MBA “doesn't look all that portable or useful” compared to the MB or MBP

Fortunately, portability has more to do with ease of lugging around than looks. A three pound computer is PRETTY useful; even a pound makes a huge difference over time as I discovered when I moved from an iBook G4 to a MBP. If you regularly have to travel 12 or more hours by air (including stop overs), you don’t need to be convinced about this. If your commute is only between your bedroom and garage/office, then I’d see why you might think a $700 premium is a complete waste. Buy a MB.

8. I can buy ”alternate product“ and end up with more ”desired feature(s) here.“

Then buy it, and quit bitching. The people buying the MBA aren’t over at ASUS forums saying ”I could buy the MBA and end up with xyz.“


9. The market for premium ultra-portable doesn’t exist.

The fact that YOU wouldnt buy it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I heard similar arguments about the iPod. I knew it would be a category killer but waited until the 10G was released before I bought it.

Similar arguments were also made about the iPhone; I knew it’d again be a category killer but decided to wait for rev B or a price drop and bought as soon as the price was reduced. Best phone/PDA I ever had - this coming off a Treo and having owned PDAs since the original Palm Pilot.

10. Apple/Steve Jobs is ”dumb/greedy“; the MBA will NEVER sell.
Bottom line is, who am I going to give the benefit of the doubt about what the correct trade-off is between engineering, packaging, marketing and pricing - the guys who created the completely new categories of personal computer and revolutionized the portable music player and the cellphone industry, or the know-it all guys who rant rabidly on Appleinsider forums on how NOBODY will buy it?
post #138 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

1.6 GHz is one of the FASTEST CPUs in the ultralight segment. The Sony that it is most frequently compared to is 1.0 or 1.2 GHz.

I read on Engadget that Sony is updating their Vaio TZ series to have an option for 1.33GHz C2D. They will also have an option for a 250GB alongside a 64GB SSD, for whatever reason. It also comes in at around $3700.
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post #139 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic2.6 View Post

10. Apple/Steve Jobs is dumb/greedy; the MBA will NEVER sell.
Bottom line is, who am I going to give the benefit of the doubt about what the correct trade-off is between engineering, packaging, marketing and pricing - the guys who created the completely new categories of personal computer and revolutionized the portable music player and the cellphone industry, or the know-it all guys who rant rabidly on Appleinsider forums on how NOBODY will buy it?



Who obviously aren't even successful enough to afford the MBA! I think I'll listen to the successful company of people.
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post #140 of 190
Munster uses statements by independent resellers as Apple employees aren't supposed to talk. The conclusion he draws is that lots of lookers, a good thing, and the MBA buyers are not cannibalizing sales of other models, another very good thing. We are left to imagine who these buyers are, switchers, 12"PB, MB and or MBP etc. uses that have been making do waiting for a light weight to be introduced.

Repeating that most of the people looking aren't buying is not a negative and there is no implication that it is. Attracting interest beyond the target is a positive. It is no surprise that many store personal don't get the pricing model as most of the fan boys don't either. Those that care and want the light well designed laptop enough to pay can generally afford it and might have paid more as evidenced by the apparent popularity of the SSD.

I think Apple has a bona fide hit. Of course it will never come close to the numbers for the MB. It wasn't meant to. I would hazard to guess that most of us using our time to post on this site don't fly 3 or more time a month let alone 3 or more time a week. The number of people who do is huge and if Apple can gain 10, 20, 50% market share in this group of highly networked above average earners they should. These are trendsetters whose influence extends beyond their spending.
post #141 of 190
Quote:
I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that 1.6 GHz is one of the slower processor speeds out there for a new computer/laptop. As I mentioned above, you can pay less money for a faster Macbook with a minimal increase in actual physical size.

The first thing you've said is the most important part of your statement. There are ultra-light notebooks with far slower processors and cost $2000 - $3000.


Quote:
My questions:
1.) Wouldn't new MacBooksPros especially a 12' version sell better?
2.) Didn't most people want a tablet at a lower cost instead of this since it's not very powerful?
3.) Are PC people really going to switch for this with all that it's lacking?

- No a 12" MacBookPro would not necessarily sell better. Especially if it were to thick or too heavy.

- The tablet market is going nowhere. What tablet have you heard of that sells well.

- PC people that want a ultra-light yes they will.
post #142 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

Absolutely.

To put things in context, apple sold 1.3 million laptops last quarter. Even if air sales are only about 8 percent of all of their laptops sold, that's still 100k units. Which grosses the company upwards of 180 million. Even if they only sell 13 thousand airs (one percent of their laptop sales), that's a gross of 23 million for the company.

What do people think the R&D costs for this unit were to imagine a situation where apple actually loses money on the model? This thing doesn't have to be a huge seller for apple to come out ahead on it, is it really so horrible that apple took a risk with this model?

I plan on getting an MBA in a couple of weeks, I absolutely love the computer, the best looking laptop I've ever seen. I don't know why some people want it to fail, I just can't see the reasoning behind it, what point are you trying to prove, if the MBA isn't for you move on and buy something else, people will always find ways to complain and some people will even go as far as to want the product to fail to it can discontinued, a tad bit selfish. What I've also noticed is the MBA attracts people into the Apple stores who are fascinated by it, they may not buy the MBA but they may buy an Apple product which is good for Apple.
post #143 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Acknowledge that it is what physically bigger? I just don't see the advantage of leaving stuff out to reduce weight..

Then, for the zillionth time, you aren't the target audience (and can't imagine the audience?). There are plenty of people who are willing to pay extra (in terms of money and marginally important features) to have a lighter computer to lug around.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

No it doesn't. At least not in the electronics industry. The whole premise of the modern electronic IC is that smaller is cheaper is more capability..

That's just patently absurd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

In any event maybe iSupply will give us a break down on costs in the near future. From my perspective nothing in AIR should really be that expensive.

We shall see.
post #144 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Acknowledge that it is what physically bigger? I just don't see the advantage of leaving stuff out to reduce weight..

Then, for the zillionth time, you aren't the target audience (and can't imagine the audience?). There are plenty of people who are willing to pay extra (in terms of money and marginally important features) to have a lighter computer to lug around.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

No it doesn't. At least not in the electronics industry. The whole premise of the modern electronic IC is that smaller is cheaper is more capability..

That's just patently absurd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

In any event maybe iSupply will give us a break down on costs in the near future. From my perspective nothing in AIR should really be that expensive.

We shall see. I expect you will be surprised.
post #145 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by logic2.6 View Post

I've read so much arrant rubbish in this thread, I felt compelled for the first time in years to post.

1. MBA offers less value than other Mac portable options

Great, so buy the other Mac product that offers better value.

2. MBA would be better if Apple just added insert your favorite feature here

Perhaps it would. But they didnt. So if you NEED favorite feature here, buy a machine that has it. Or wait for rev.2 of the MBA to come, cost/component availability may have changed by then so you can buy it.

3. The processor/hard drive/SSD is too slow/small/expensive

So wait a year. Itll be faster/bigger/cheaper. Guaranteed.

4. If Apple only lowered the price, theyd sell more of these.

Not if they cant produce any more than they can sell at this price right now. Very basic economics.


5. The average user really wants alternate feature set found only in MB or MBP

Great, so sales of MBA wont cut into sales of MB or MBP that would have been made to the average user.


6. The MBA is less portable than other Apple products.

Well, this is true if youre comparing it to the iPod line or the iPhone. Otherwise its a cretinous statement.


7. The MBA doesn't look all that portable or useful compared to the MB or MBP

Fortunately, portability has more to do with ease of lugging around than looks. A three pound computer is PRETTY useful; even a pound makes a huge difference over time as I discovered when I moved from an iBook G4 to a MBP. If you regularly have to travel 12 or more hours by air (including stop overs), you dont need to be convinced about this. If your commute is only between your bedroom and garage/office, then Id see why you might think a $700 premium is a complete waste. Buy a MB.

8. I can buy alternate product and end up with more desired feature(s) here.

Then buy it, and quit bitching. The people buying the MBA arent over at ASUS forums saying I could buy the MBA and end up with xyz.


9. The market for premium ultra-portable doesnt exist.

The fact that YOU wouldnt buy it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. I heard similar arguments about the iPod. I knew it would be a category killer but waited until the 10G was released before I bought it.

Similar arguments were also made about the iPhone; I knew itd again be a category killer but decided to wait for rev B or a price drop and bought as soon as the price was reduced. Best phone/PDA I ever had - this coming off a Treo and having owned PDAs since the original Palm Pilot.

10. Apple/Steve Jobs is dumb/greedy; the MBA will NEVER sell.
Bottom line is, who am I going to give the benefit of the doubt about what the correct trade-off is between engineering, packaging, marketing and pricing - the guys who created the completely new categories of personal computer and revolutionized the portable music player and the cellphone industry, or the know-it all guys who rant rabidly on Appleinsider forums on how NOBODY will buy it?

Couldn't have put it better, well said.
post #146 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adjei View Post

Couldn't have put it better, well said.

Agreed, that's a great summary of the issues.
post #147 of 190
I wish the Air had tons of ports That way I could carry bags of other peripherals along with my ultraportable... which is JUST what you want from an ultraportable I also demand a floppy drive.

Luckily, when I order my Air I won't even need the Superdrive or the Ethernet. And it will still do everything* I've done with my current bulky beast of laptop with ports bristling on all sides. Everybody has their one pet feature (maybe it's 4GB RAM, maybe it's 1/2" less wide screen) that the Air MUST have or it's USELESS. Surely Apple should throw in everybody's one pet feature. They could call it a MacBook Pro

In fact, with cheap USB add-ons and various other means, an Air will let you do anything but download DV camcorder footage. You won't necessarily do everything in the same WAY you are used to. With other MacBooks you could lug a peripheral, its power supply and a cable. With the Air you may have to carry the peripheral, its power supply, a cable, AND a small/cheap adapter or hub stuck on the cable Or you may have to suffer the freedom and convenience (for all but one-time big transfers) of wireless

And Apple is certainly evil for charging mere hundreds less than the slow, thick competition rather than a nice even thousand. Because we all know that ONLY the components make up the cost of a machine. There is no cost to assemble the parts or support the product, and the two years of R&D came free as well. Also, an Asus Eee with the same computing horsepower as my electric toothbrush--and a screen 7" larger--costs almost the same to make as a MacBook Air, while including a software bundle just as powerful and elegant as OS X and iLife Clearly the Air is overpriced. And those suffering the worst seem to be those who aren't buying one anyway...

People really get upset over the Air and want it to fail. I don't much care, just so I get mine I've been waiting a long time for something this small and light--with OS X power and dual 64-bit processors to boot.

See point #2 here. Classic.

The Air "issue" has two extreme sides: one camp putting down those who don't choose an Air. One camp putting down those who do choose an air.

The former camp has zero people in it. The latter camp is a small but vocal group. Meanwhile I and most people take a rational middle view: the Air has unique benefits that make it a great choice for SOME people, while other models are a better choice for other people.

* Except... no, wait... everything.
post #148 of 190
Wow! I have to admit I hadn't been reading any of these Apple forums (yes, I know the correct plural is "fora") until last August. I wanted to see what people thought of the incredibly beautiful new iMac (boy, that'll get me flamed for sure!) I started looking at the MacWorld forum and discovered that it was one of the most virulent Apple-bashing sites out there. I meant to stop reading, but it took their switch to Flash to finally get me to stop altogether. (Masochism is one thing, but waiting for a Flash page to load is beyond that!)

I thought perhaps I would find a little less anti-Apple bile and venom on a site called "AppleInsider." Imagine my surprise! Addressing some of the "contributers" to this thread: Stop complaining about being called trolls! Embrace your trollitude! Apparently you expect the rest of us to!

As a public service. I'd like to contribute the following stock reply for people to cut and paste whenever Apple brings out a new product:

"I bought my first Mac in 1793. That's when you had to toggle the whole operating system in from the front panel every time you started it up. In Octal! By candlelight!

Apple has to listen to my complaints because I'm a fanatical Apple supporter. Of course, I hate every product they ever brought out, I think their way of doing business is criminal, and I think Steve Jobs is the Devil, but other than that....

I want a 12" MacBook Pro with ten of every port ever invented (yes, that includes SCSI!) that's only 4" high when open, and I'm only willing to pay $400 for it. If it's more expensive than that, it's just a ripoff by that devil Jobs. But I'm willing to forgive everything if Steve will kiss my ass on stage at the next MacWorld and discontinue every product that I don't want to run right out and buy! Well, I'll forgive everything until they bring out some other product I don't approve of...."
post #149 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatesbasher View Post

Wow! I have to admit I hadn't been reading any of these Apple forums (yes, I know the correct plural is "fora") until last August. I wanted to see what people thought of the incredibly beautiful new iMac (boy, that'll get me flamed for sure!) I started looking at the MacWorld forum and discovered that it was one of the most virulent Apple-bashing sites out there. I meant to stop reading, but it took their switch to Flash to finally get me to stop altogether. (Masochism is one thing, but waiting for a Flash page to load is beyond that!)

I thought perhaps I would find a little less anti-Apple bile and venom on a site called "AppleInsider." Imagine my surprise! Addressing some of the "contributers" to this thread: Stop complaining about being called trolls! Embrace your trollitude! Apparently you expect the rest of us to!

As a public service. I'd like to contribute the following stock reply for people to cut and paste whenever Apple brings out a new product:

"I bought my first Mac in 1793. That's when you had to toggle the whole operating system in from the front panel every time you started it up. In Octal! By candlelight!

Apple has to listen to my complaints because I'm a fanatical Apple supporter. Of course, I hate every product they ever brought out, I think their way of doing business is criminal, and I think Steve Jobs is the Devil, but other than that....

I want a 12" MacBook Pro with ten of every port ever invented (yes, that includes SCSI!) that's only 4" high when open, and I'm only willing to pay $400 for it. If it's more expensive than that, it's just a ripoff by that devil Jobs. But I'm willing to forgive everything if Steve will kiss my ass on stage at the next MacWorld and discontinue every product that I don't want to run right out and buy! Well, I'll forgive everything until they bring out some other product I don't approve of...."

"I used to be disgusted, but now I try to be amused."
Macbook Pro 2.2
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"I used to be disgusted, but now I try to be amused."
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post #150 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatesbasher View Post

Wow! I have to admit I hadn't been reading any of these Apple forums (yes, I know the correct plural is "fora") until last August. I wanted to see what people thought of the incredibly beautiful new iMac (boy, that'll get me flamed for sure!) I started looking at the MacWorld forum and discovered that it was one of the most virulent Apple-bashing sites out there. I meant to stop reading, but it took their switch to Flash to finally get me to stop altogether. (Masochism is one thing, but waiting for a Flash page to load is beyond that!)

I thought perhaps I would find a little less anti-Apple bile and venom on a site called "AppleInsider." Imagine my surprise! Addressing some of the "contributers" to this thread: Stop complaining about being called trolls! Embrace your trollitude! Apparently you expect the rest of us to!

As a public service. I'd like to contribute the following stock reply for people to cut and paste whenever Apple brings out a new product:

"I bought my first Mac in 1793. That's when you had to toggle the whole operating system in from the front panel every time you started it up. In Octal! By candlelight!

Apple has to listen to my complaints because I'm a fanatical Apple supporter. Of course, I hate every product they ever brought out, I think their way of doing business is criminal, and I think Steve Jobs is the Devil, but other than that....

I want a 12" MacBook Pro with ten of every port ever invented (yes, that includes SCSI!) that's only 4" high when open, and I'm only willing to pay $400 for it. If it's more expensive than that, it's just a ripoff by that devil Jobs. But I'm willing to forgive everything if Steve will kiss my ass on stage at the next MacWorld and discontinue every product that I don't want to run right out and buy! Well, I'll forgive everything until they bring out some other product I don't approve of...."

Nice post.

Note: Being a word from Latin, the original plural was fora, but forums is also correct. Google list more uses for forums and dictionaries list both.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #151 of 190
According to a report at Fortune (http://apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com...of-mac-market/), Munster states in his research note:
Quote:
Customers are more curious but less willing to buy the MacBook Air than they were the original MacBook, Munster writes in a report to clients issued this morning. We believe that 16% of Macs by the end of calendar year 2008 will be MacBook Air.

If this turns out to be accurate, the MBA will certainly do its job contributing to Apple's sales efforts (accounting for one-sixth of units sold of the six available Mac models). Yes its sales are lower than MacBooks and, likely, iMacs but contributing nicely to Apple's top line.

As to the target market for the MBA, I know four people who have purchased one. All have access to another computer and a network. All made a purchase they had not been anticipating prior to the MBA launch thus each was additive to Apple's market-share for this quarter.

Three are very mobile professionals (an attorney and two sales executives) who were attracted both by the weight, the thinness and the full-size keyboard and large display. A smaller footprint is of no consequence to these people because they carry their MBAs in their briefcase which easily accommodates the MBA's x-y dimensions but each is also happy to have a bit of extra space for paperwork due to its thinness. None are complaining about the lack of ports since they all rely on wireless networks (in their offices) and USB drives. By the way, all three were previously using some smallish PC notebook - all switchers in terms of their laptop needs.

The fourth person is my dad who replaced his 15" MBP. My parents are retired and travel a lot; they use their portable to stay in touch while on the road and to share photographs with friends and family. The weight reduction is the primary reason for the switch. - as my dad put it, "Two pounds less for these almost eighty year-old bones is ...well... two pounds less."

I really pressed him on the potential shortcomings but he had already thought things through pretty carefully. When I mentioned lack of Firewire, he reminded me that he shoots only still photographs and all his external drives and both cameras have USB. He has a NAS at home. He did buy the USB ethernet adaptor "just in case" but again reminded me that he always carries an Airport Express with him so the weight of the dongle is insignificant. His biggest concern is the battery even though he said he was never yet swapped the extra battery he carries. All in all, he could not be happier with his purchase and they will be road-testing it next week while in Australia.

For those who think the market for the MBA is very small niche market, I think that the MBA market is actually several small niches that when added together will likely be bigger than what many of the naysayers expect.
post #152 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Note: Being a word from Latin, the original plural was fora, but forums is also correct. Google list more uses for forums and dictionaries list both.

I know, just a little joke.

Since I don't want to be labeled a troll for that last post, I would like to inject a little reason here. All the: "I don't want one, therefore nobody will buy one" arguments are unanswerable (Oh wait: Don't buy one!) I thought I would address an undercurrent here that seems to think anything smaller should be cheaper.

Every technology has a certain "sweet spot" of size that can be constructed for the minimum cost. I'm old enough to remember the curve with TVs; It used to be that about a 23" table model was the minimum price. Of course, if you wanted the same guts in a nice wooden console, that cost extra, but if you wanted something bigger, you really paid through the nose. Also, if you wanted a 19" "portable" (hey, it had a handle, right?) that cost quite a bit more. There were even a few 12-inchers for that "niche" market, but they were really expensive. A few years later (late 60s) the 19" was the cheapest, and it cost money to go up or down. As the R&D on the smaller components got paid off, the sweet spot moved downward. Finally there was that 5" Sony the fat guy had on his belly in the ad, but that cost an arm and a leg! Now I've seen a 5" B&W TV with an AM/FM radio for $19.95. (Admittedly, it was on sale.)

Color TVs went through the same evolution, just 10 or 15 years behind. It's obvious to me that in the Apple lineup, the MacBook hits the sweet spot. If you want something bigger or smaller, you're going to pay more for it. I expect the works of the MacBook Air to become mainstream eventually, and I think that's what Apple is planning on. Really, the Air doesn't even have to break even: they've got it out there. Can you imagine what some of our forum colleagues would say if Apple brought this out 2 years from now? "Where have you been, Apple? Too little, too late! Everybody's ahead of you!"

When 128 GB SSDs cost only a little more than 160GB HDDs, this (or something very much like it) will be the MacBook. That's the time to bring out something smaller, and yes: More Expensive!
post #153 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

- No a 12" MacBookPro would not necessarily sell better. Especially if it were to thick or too heavy.

When it comes to supporting a professional user it is all about I/O. Apple could put the same screen that is in the current AIR into a MBP and it would sell better. I have no doubt in my mind at all.
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- The tablet market is going nowhere. What tablet have you heard of that sells well.

Lets see iPod Touch is hot as is the iPhone, Nokia is doing a bang up job with its internet tablets, (LG, Sony and other companies) all have tablet devices in the works or available right now. This doesn't even take into account special purpose tablets. Frankly tablets are the hottest part of the computing market with more processor development for that market taking place than ever has. The big problem with the tablet world is that people want to look at slate like devices that don't sell well and call the tablet market a failure. Big mistake but I'm not sure how this even came up in a thread about AIR.
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- PC people that want a ultra-light yes they will.

No they won't? Professionals that travel with PC first need a MS OS which usually means XP. They need that to support Applications that will not run under Mac OS. That is not to slight Apple's OS, as many would like an alternative, but is just a reality. Now XP may run on AIR, I don't really know, but it won't take advantage of AIR specific features so becomes pointless.

That is just one issue with getting people to switch from a PC to AIR. That doesn't even include the issues that have been raised in this thread.

Dave
post #154 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adjei View Post

I plan on getting an MBA in a couple of weeks, I absolutely love the computer, the best looking laptop I've ever seen.

Ok so we buy computer based on looks and not capability. If that is your metric then there is little to argue against. Sort of like picking a pretty girl over one with brains I guess.
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I don't know why some people want it to fail, I just can't see the reasoning behind it, what point are you trying to prove,

Name one person here that wants to see AIr fail. Absolutely no one has said such a thing. What people are pointing out, is that many see a very limited market for AIR and no long term staying power in the market place. It is not that we want it to fail is that we can't understand the price point, which is highway robbery and the omission of significant I/O. Some of that I/O would not have impacted the design one bit nor the price point.
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if the MBA isn't for you move on and buy something else, people will always find ways to complain and some people will even go as far as to want the product to fail to it can discontinued, a tad bit selfish.

You are stepping a little bit over the line here buddy. No one here is selfish, they are simply expressing opinions which if you have an open mind you might realize will help Apple more than anything else. If customers don't stand up and say "hey Apple Firewire and 'audio in' are important as is 2 USB ports" then how would Apple know?
Quote:
What I've also noticed is the MBA attracts people into the Apple stores who are fascinated by it, they may not buy the MBA but they may buy an Apple product which is good for Apple.

Yeah this I will admit to.

What people seem to be confused with is that I find the AIR to be very interesting and certainly don't want ti to fail. Frankly I could have seen this machine becoming Apples best selling laptop and possibly the best in the industry if it had just a bit more thought put into the design and market positioning.

The other way to look at this is as a owner of Apple stock. Right now anybody that is such an owner should be very concerned about Apples price. Not that a correction wasn't due but certainly not to the extent that we have seen. Part of Apples recovery process should involve new products that add significantly to revenues. I could be completely wrong but I don't see AIR as that product.

Dave
post #155 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by malax View Post

Then, for the zillionth time, you aren't the target audience (and can't imagine the audience?). There are plenty of people who are willing to pay extra (in terms of money and marginally important features) to have a lighter computer to lug around.

Well thanks for the info like I haven't already pointed that out myself.

The problem isn't that I don't like AIR as a concept but rather as a final product and I reserve the right to point out why it might not be selling as well as some are implying. It is good for Apple and frankly it is good for people trying to make a decision and are reading this forum.
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That's just patently absurd.

Then you know nothing about the electronics industry. Do you think Intel could make profitable chips, with 2 BILLION transistors, with chip process sizes from the 80's or 90's? The electronics industry is all about making things smaller to increase capacity and lower prices. If you don't like Intel as an example look at what IBM has been doing with Cell and the process shrinks there.
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We shall see.

Hopefully.
post #156 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by ouragan View Post

All things considered, you have to wonder how much better Apple would do with another CEO and lower prices. After 10 and 1/2 years, it's time for a change of CEO, this time with enough brains to get a university degree...



Mate, you are a fool!
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post #157 of 190
Quote:
When it comes to supporting a professional user it is all about I/O.

Not with ultraportables. It's about portability. Not about connecting more devices.

Quote:
Now XP may run on AIR, I don't really know, but it won't take advantage of AIR specific features so becomes pointless.

XP does run on the Air. So does Vista: Vista Ultimate runs well, which cannot be said for many a PC ultraportable.

And Windows will indeed take advantage of Air specific features. Above all, the weight and volume, the full-size screen and keys, and the performance. Windows will also use the Air's infrared remote/receiver (which can control iTunes, Windows Media Player, and even be used to choose between OS X and Windows), the backlit keys, the ambient light sensor, the iSight camera and mic, the optional USB faxmodem, the required Superdrive (since no version of Windows can boot/install a notebook wirelessly like a Mac can), the scroll and context-menu gestures on the trackpad (but not zoom/rotate), USB Ethernet, and of course the optional SSD.

That said, many a business a traveler needs WIndows applications in their work, but doesn't need them on the road, thanks to the Internet, Office for Mac, etc. So some Windows users can buy an Air, NOT install Windows, and still keep using Windows on their PC the same as always. The best of both worlds with no extra Microsoft license to buy

Buying an Air is "pointless" for travelers who use Windows at work? I hope the people doing just that figure it out in time to return their blunder

Quote:
Right now anybody that is such an owner should be very concerned about Apples price. Not that a correction wasn't due but certainly not to the extent that we have seen. Part of Apples recovery process should involve new products that add significantly to revenues. I could be completely wrong but I don't see AIR as that product.

The entire tech industry is down--with Apple LESS down than many others.

It doesn't matter if the Air adds significantly to revenues: the cost to make it has happened over several years, which may as well see SOME return now that it's done. The good news is that the Air is not Apple's ONLY product. The Air may not add much to revenues. Neither will the TV cable for iPod Touch. nor the VESA bracket for Cinema Displays. Others will.

But I for one DO expect the Air to pay for its own development and more. In four ways, none of them minor:

1. It will sell to people (like me) for whom Apple previously made NO acceptable laptop--and to others who are less insistent on portability but happen to like it all the same. The ultraportable market is growing as ultraportables get cheaper and more powerful--two trends the Air exemplifies. The notebook market is growing relative to desktops. And the Mac market is growing too. All three trends point to Air sales increasing. Best of all, it seems not to cannibalize other products.

2. It will draw traffic to Apple stores and the Apple web site, thus selling products OTHER than itself.

3. It will draw positive press attention, furthering Apple's mindshare and reputation for quality and innovation, and great industrial design (which is not just looks, by the way).

4. It will push the industry as a whole--but Apple in particular--towards more compact engineering. What Apple learned with the Air will make future Apple products better and more portable. The Air is not the end of this story, it is the beginning. The R&D expense of the Air will be recovered in selling that technology in more products than just the Air.

All four of these are already happening. #4 will be demonstrated when we see another MacBook model using multitouch. Next Tuesday?

It's good though that you are pointing out that the Air "might" not be selling as well as "some" people think... when nobody knows the numbers, we only know it meets a certain need better than anything else on the market.
post #158 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

You're defining "basic hardware" to be a radio and heater. I consider it the ability to seat four people. Your analogy that any car/truck meets mainstream needs while the air doesn't, doesn't hold up.

Sure it does because you are using an artificial requirement. In America the average commuter to work is the sole occupant of the vehicle he is in.
Quote:
Well I guess since I'm included in "everyone" I've already proven that wrong. People said the same about floppy disks, and yet here we are.

Sure they did but that doesn't make Apple right every time.
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Your opinion, the fact that so many have put forth being impressed by the form factor seems to discount your guess of what "most people" think. And people do make notebook buying decisions based on size and weight.

It may impress people on its own or as a selling point but when sitting right next to the Mac Book in the Apple store the size feature isn't all that impressive. Sure it weighs less and that is a reason to buy but its physical size just isn't a compelling argument.
Quote:
Acknowledge that smaller and ligher is an advantage. You've already made it perfectly clear that you don't find value in that advantage, or consider it worth the tradeoffs, at least you could admit the advantage exists.

Sure if it had this advantage but honestly it only has half of what you are claiming.
Quote:
That's true in the case of a chip, but people aren't buying an individual chip. They're buying a computer, which includes many parts including keyboard, display, IO, storage, cooling, power, etc. Until someone can figure out how to put the monitor and keyboard (and everything else) on a chip, putting together a laptop has design constraints that mean smaller=more expensive.

What a fancy fan for the CPU? Take a look at the on line photos, the RAM array looks like any other RAM array. This is what bugs the hell out of me, that is the claim that there is a huge step forward in the design here. Except for the CPU and fan it looks like standard off the shelf parts to me.
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You just provided your own rebuttal. The Eee has a fraction of the memory, drive space (flash), performance, and a seven inch screen. If anything, it shows that you have to cut corners in a huge way to get drastic size and weight reductions.

Err no it shows that you can cram a lot of technology, using laptop type parts into a very small box. In many ways more than what we see in the AIR. It comes back to the idea that has been expressed that the AIR is a great advancement in electronics technology. I just don't buy it. Maybe a better review will change my mind but I will stick to my claim until then that the AIR is a very cheap machine to produce.
Quote:
If it's really so easy to make a comparable machine for hundreds less (and add ports and other stuff in the process), why isn't some other company doing it? Why not?

I don't really know, but address the issue of the ASUS Eee PC why is it that such machine where so high priced until ASUS came out with their machine? It isn't because of vastly different technology.
[/quote]
If they don't have to be, then why are they expensive? If it was possible to sell an ultraportable for way cheaper, why doesn't some company do it and sell a boatload?
[/quote]
Well here we play a classification game because I don't consider the AIR to be an ultra portable. It is a light weight laptop, I think most would agree on that.

I will roll around back to the ASUS Eee PC and that class of machine. ASUS is certainly selling boatloads there and it would be considered an ultra portable or maybe a sub portable. Again an issue of classification. The point is ASUS clean up against the competition and did so on a very low cost machine.
Quote:


The cube was released in 2000. The apple hifi was another apple flop, and the aTV is a question mark with the new software update. When you look at what the company has done right since 2000, is "making the same mistakes over and over again" really the best way to describe the situation?

Well if you see a common theme then yes. That is a situation where design all of a sudden outweighs functionality. That is not saying that design isn't important as it has kept Apple alive through some really tough times. It just that I see a machine that was designed to be very portable and at the same time missing things that I would think the man on the go might want.

One example would be dirt simple VoIP that doesn't involve Bluetooth. Something that could have been added to the very hardware we have now with no changes at all to the physical machine by simply using iPhone headsets. All one would need is a different jack hooked up to the analog in that is likely already on the motherboard someplace.

You see sometimes I think people are getting the wrong impression, it is not like I don't like the AIR's design. There are certainly good points to be had there. What just blows my mind are the trade offs that where made, some of which have no logical explanation. That and the price for what you get.

Dave
post #159 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

Not with ultraportables. It's about portability. Not about connecting more devices.

Well first I'm not sure classifying the AIR as an ultra portable is right. It is no more portable than the Mac Book. AIR is simply a light laptop.

In any event that is a discussion in and of itself. With respect to I/O I will simply say that I respectfully disagree.
Quote:


XP does run on the Air. So does Vista:

Good news for someone I'm sure!
Quote:
Vista Ultimate runs well, which cannot be said for many a PC ultraportable.
........ the scroll and context-menu gestures on the trackpad (but not zoom/rotate), USB Ethernet, and of course the optional SSD.

OK this perplexes me a bit as I'm not sure how gestures could be translated into useful actions on Windows. Well scroll I can understand and there are standards for I/O here. We are loosing the zoom / rotate and likely any other thing that Apple comes up with. At least i would be very surprised to see Apple and MS evolve in the same way there.
Quote:

That said, many a business a traveler needs WIndows applications in their work, but doesn't need them on the road, thanks to the Internet, Office for Mac, etc. So some Windows users can buy an Air, NOT install Windows, and still keep using Windows on their PC the same as always. The best of both worlds with no extra Microsoft license to buy

Many a corporate traveler I know is stuck with whatever the IT department supplies them with. I think it is a bit of a stretch to imagine what you describe above as being wide spread practices.
Quote:

Buying an Air is "pointless" for travelers who use Windows at work? I hope the people doing just that figure it out in time to return their blunder

Even with the XP compatibility you describe above I still see it as pointless.
Quote:


The entire tech industry is down--with Apple LESS down than many others.

Interesting because there where day where the major complaint was that the index would have been up if it wasn't for Apple.
Quote:
It doesn't matter if the Air adds significantly to revenues: the cost to make it has happened over several years, which may as well see SOME return now that it's done. The good news is that the Air is not Apple's ONLY product. The Air may not add much to revenues. Neither will the TV cable for iPod Touch. nor the VESA bracket for Cinema Displays. Others will.

For all we know Apple could have funded the entire project out of cash flow. I know I've seen huge projects done locally that way. But I think that we are being foolish if we are trying to convince ourselves that AIR doesn't have to contribute to the bottom line significantly.
Quote:

But I for one DO expect the Air to pay for its own development and more. In four ways, none of them minor:

1. It will sell to people (like me) for whom Apple previously made NO acceptable laptop--and to others who are less insistent on portability but happen to like it all the same. The ultraportable market is growing as ultraportables get cheaper and more powerful--two trends the Air exemplifies. The notebook market is growing relative to desktops. And the Mac market is growing too. All three trends point to Air sales increasing. Best of all, it seems not to cannibalize other products.

As I mentioned in another response this whole issue of classifying the AIR as an ultra portable doesn't really fly with me. The notebook market is certainly growing and my whole concern with AIR is that it could have been a much bigger part of that growth. Frankly without making a profoundly different machine.
Quote:

2. It will draw traffic to Apple stores and the Apple web site, thus selling products OTHER than itself.

Sure so does the pink display which probably cost a lot less than the AIR.
Quote:

3. It will draw positive press attention, furthering Apple's mindshare and reputation for quality and innovation, and great industrial design (which is not just looks, by the way).

The AIR is very high quality for what you get, you only need to hold one in your hands to realize that. Industrial design is another issue though, as you say it is not just looks and frankly as has been highlighted here a major concern for many.
Quote:
4. It will push the industry as a whole--but Apple in particular--towards more compact engineering. What Apple learned with the Air will make future Apple products better and more portable.

What Apple has learned? Sorry I don't see the huge learning process here. Apple has learned more about small from the iPhone and iPod lines than the AIR. I just don't see the great accomplishments from the electronics end.
Quote:
The Air is not the end of this story, it is the beginning. The R&D expense of the Air will be recovered in selling that technology in more products than just the Air.

All four of these are already happening. #4 will be demonstrated when we see another MacBook model using multitouch. Next Tuesday?

Now I feel like you are trying to rewrite history here. MultiTouch came out well before AIR did, this is not an innovation in any shape or form.
Quote:

It's good though that you are pointing out that the Air "might" not be selling as well as "some" people think... when nobody knows the numbers, we only know it meets a certain need better than anything else on the market.

Well considering this whole thread is the result of an Analysts note, it is pretty obvious that what might be happening does shake people up. Given the track record of analysts and there other interests they should be taken with a grain of salt.

What I wonder about and frankly this whole thread revolves around is you statement that the AIR is ".... better than anything else on the market". Granted there are special needs that I can not argue with. What is debatable in my mind is the size of that market.

Dave
post #160 of 190
.... the folks predicting the failure of the MacBook Air may want to mosey on over to http://store.apple.com and look at what the best selling Mac is..... I'll give you a hint.


Its the MacBook Air.

Now scroll down to the bottom of the online store, and choose another country.

#1 in France.
#1 in Japan.
#1 in UK.
#1 in Spain
#1 in Italy
#1 in Ireland
#1 in Belgium
#1 in Luxembourg
#1 in The Netherlands (Nederland)
#1 in Austria (Osterrich)
#1 in Denmark
#1 in Germany (Deutschland)
#1 in Norway (Norge)
#1 in Switzerland (Schweiz)
#1 in Finland (Suomi)
#1 in Sweeden (Sverige)

What do the "floppers" have to say for themselves now?
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Mac OS X, FreeBSD, Mandrake Linux and Windows XP are my OS's. I am GEEK, hear me roar.
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Mac OS X, FreeBSD, Mandrake Linux and Windows XP are my OS's. I am GEEK, hear me roar.
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