MacBook Air demand trails that of original Intel-based MacBook - Page 3

First, isn't the only way for it NOT to increase market share is if 100% of them are sold to mac users? Do you really think they won't sell any of these to PC users?

And second, isn't a mac sale that replaces an old retiring mac a good thing, even if that particular sale doesn't increase user base?


More arguing for arguing sake instead of addressing the issues. Can we get back on topic?

Is smaller/lighter an advantage in a laptop or not?
Are there people willing to pay more for smaller/lighter or not?
Are there people willing to make sacrifices in performance/features to get smaller/lighter or not?


If that's the case, why do so many companies make models for this nonexistent market? If they weren't selling any, wouldn't they stop making them?

I don't have to read it anywhere, it's common sense. Each MBA sale will increase the number of Macsand Mac OS Xsold by one , so long as it wasn't lateral move in lieu of purchasing a different Mac. Or do you believe that no MBAs will be sold?

teckstud-

I have fallen for his tricks too. All he is looking for is a reaction from people, which he is getting. I've found the best way to get rid of a troll is to ignore them. Slowly but surely they will go away.

[QUOTE=minderbinder;1214078]First, isn't the only way for it NOT to increase market share is if 100% of them are sold to mac users? Do you really think they won't sell any of these to PC users?

And second, isn't a mac sale that replaces an old retiring mac a good thing, even if that particular sale doesn't increase user base?

More arguing for arguing sake instead of addressing the issues. Can we get back on topic?

1.)Is smaller/lighter an advantage in a laptop or not?
2.)Are there people willing to pay more for smaller/lighter or not?
3.)Are there people willing to make sacrifices in performance/features to get smaller/lighter or not?]
QUOTE]



ANSWERS:
1.) Yes but not necessary.
2.) Yes the Neiman Marcus crowd.
3.) Yes- Paris Hilton.

My questions:
1.) Wouldn't new MacBooksPros especially a 12' version sell better?
2.) Didn't most people want a tablet at a lower cost instead of this since it's not very powerful?
3.) Are PC people really going to switch for this with all that it's lacking?

Well, not exactly. When this piece of hardware was released it was compared very specifically to light weight ultra-portables from other manufacturers. Anyone can look at the sales of this item and compare it to the sales of those items and decide whether or not this machine is a success.

Furthermore, there are many seeming intangibles that one might imagine Apple will be looking for from the MBA. One, they want people coming through the door. Two, There are technical breakthroughs, like the processor, which will have use in other devices. There is the multi-touch track pad, too, and, in general, the efficient use of space is a breakthrough. Look for versions of these to find their way into other products this year.

Hello?

Getting less what?

You're getting "more" portability and that's what you are paying for. The reason you don't care to compare the MacBook Air to its direct competitors is that then you will have to admit that you are talking nonsense.

Yes, the MacBook Air offers less power and capacity, and fewer ports, than the MacBook for more money, but the trade-off is that it is significantly more portable. They are not the same hardware. When you compare the MacBook Air against other laptops offering comparable hardware, the price looks good.

Very simple:
The computer is .25 inches thinner than a MB, weighs 2 lbs less, has a slower processor, 80 gig hard drive, slightly larger footprint, loses several basic features and costs 700 dollars more. Whats the niche? People who are willing to pay this premium obviously. Are there many? Probably not. This computer was a really stupid idea and is going to flop pretty badly because it doesn't make sense. Call me a troll for stating the facts I suppose.

Of I course I believe it will sell and sell well- to MAC users. But that does not increase OS share.- unless you count with trickery like Sony does with it's products and double count for each computer used per household.

Thank you - reasonable man.

Both the Mac Pro and the MBP are equipped to satisfy the needs of the average user and then some.

Hey now I drive a pickup! In any event my pickup still comes with the I/O to meet the needs of an average user. That is it has a heater, window defroster, nice seats, roll down windows.

The point in the computer world is that a device becomes very unusable once the real I/O drops below a certain point. There is a level of I/O that everyone needs and that isn't meet on the AIR.

Actually I fully expect companies like Apple to make multiple products for different buyers. I also want them to be successful with the products they deliver. AIR would be much more attractive to the community if a few issues where resolved. All I'm saying is that if Apple wants to avoid a flop they can address these issues.

Lets face it we have all seen what has happened to the American Automobile industry when they produce products that don't meet the needs of the average consumer. It is not a pretty sight at all if you go to Detroit.

I fail to see where that is a troll as that is exactly what the problem is they are getting far less for a lot more money. A size and weight reduction by the way that is not really an exercise in new technology. Sure they got a custom packaged processor from Intel but the mother boards are pretty run of the mill. Due to everything being left out they shouldn't be considered expensive or in any way premium technology over any other laptop.

The advantage goes to the manufacture who enjoys lower materials costs and production costs. Apple certainly isn't passing these advantages on to anyone.



Thanks
Dave

I have always discussed threads here with ideas and facts. I don't resort to calling people names and not dicussing what is on the thread as you have just done. Please go away yourself unless you are going to discuss the topic.

Um, add 'ooh' factor to thinness/portability that those ARE the reasons to get the Air.
Why people don't get that this is the Rolex of laptops.
Whether that's a good niche to market to is one question. Whether it has to meet the needs of performance geeks it totally another.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Well I'd hardly call starting most threads with "Jobs is a crook, Apple is out to rip you off, and you're all fanboy suckers" fact based, but we enjoy the irony.

Good points.

That is an interesting point. It is believable that if you can attract top executives with
a stylish, expensive portable laptop and get them hooked on Mac OS, they might be
inclined to direct their underlings to investigate Macs for the enterprise.

Actually you are getting less even with respect to portability. This compared to Apple's own products. Weight isn't everything with respect to portability.

Oh come on that is complete BS you can walk into the Apple store and see them sitting side by side. There is very little physical difference and when you take into account that you will be compelled to wander around with hubs and dongles and other crap, for the AIR, it doesn't look all that portable or useful.

Oh come on again what other hardware is so limited. Further I can buy an ASUS Eee PC and end up with more I/O ports. Not that the Eee Pc meets my needs either but they crammed a lot of I/O into that machine without much effort. Apple on the other hand had to produce a machine with out the basics for no apparent reason. This is the biggest issue with AIR, that is they could easily have supplied it with a better complement of I/O.

Dave

Man, now I can see why minderbinder got after you. I was on your side! I was trying to help you!


Can't argue with those facts.

Amen.

What surprises me is the defense is virtually everyone admits that this is a niche machine ... And if you say only the rich will buy it you are all of a sudden a "richaphobe" or a troll.

Apple made bad design decisions on this that cost them sales and . The analysts here have proved it with the sales numbers which will not get better I assure you. Early adopter wonderlust will go away soon.

Could they have made it a little smaller in footprint to make it more appealing: Yes, look at all the blank space around the screen!
Could they have put a faster processor in: Yes, but admittedly difficult.
Could they have had more that 80 gigs: Yes, Definitely yes.
Could they have put more ports on it to broaden appeal: Yes, Definitely yes.
Could they have sold it a cheaper price: Yes
Could they have put a replaceable battery in: Yes Sony did... at same weight as apple.

Apple = Innovative (usually ... but not this time).

Not really a surprise, the price does push the market base for this product outside the mass consumer market.

When I saw the Macbook Air at Macworld, my first thought was college students, women and other people who are very style oriented would love this laptop, but the price premium compared to the Macbook would force many to look at the Air and buy a Macbook. I am sure those same consumers buy the basic white macbook in greater numbers then pay the premium for the black macbook.

Hypothetically, as the product infrastructure takes off, I could see the Air product line expand with lower and higher price point and feature models. What we see currently as the AIR could replace the Macbook at the Macbook price point and a larger screen feature rich model for users demanding higher performance. The I-Phone has followed this theory to a point with lower memory models dropping in price as higher memory models come out at the original price point.

If the Macbook Air had a 20%-25% price premium over the base Macbook, I would probably buy one, As it is today, it cost an extra $101 for the base Macbook Pro compared to an Air with the external drive add on. The lightweight and design of the Air would be nice, but dollar for dollar, I would spend just over 5% more on a Macbook Pro.

To reiterate, so long as it's not sold in lieu of another Mac purchase it will increase the number of Mac/Leopard sales. Marketshare counts the number of units sold, not the number of people of using them.

•

Market is the state of trade at a particular time or in a particular context.
• Market share is a measure of the portion of a market controlled by a particular company or product.
• Installed base is a measure of the number of units of a particular type of system actually in use.
• User base is a measure of the number of individuals using a particular product. Your comment about Sony counting each machine in a household makes me believe you are referring to user base in this conversation. Still, all you'd need is one person's switch to OS X to be a MBA. Certainly not common, but not impossible.

True. But not only price pushed the market base ... features and performance did as well.

I won't argue that that is a possibility but let face it there are cheaper ways to do that.

Not in the slightest. All the processor is is a special build/package for Apple. It isn't something that will be around long as Intel has mainstream solutions coming on in the very near future that would replace it.

This is what I don't get this allusion to the use of space or that there is some miracle in the PC boards in the AIR. They are run of the mill PC boards with a lot left out. I don't consider that an advancement at all. As far as the rest of the physical space I don't see that as being used all that well, simple design alterations could have solved most of the I/O problems on this machine.

DAve

Well said my friend. If the MBA was $1200 or $1300 it would appeal to the "average" user. As it stands now, they have priced it into the niche market.

1) I don't know, and you don't either. And for all we know, apple has one of those in the works as well.
2) Again, I don't think either of us knows what most people want. And again, apple may release a tablet as well.
3) Yes, although we'll have to see to what degree. In some cases, it will also get PC users into apple stores to check it out, and they'll end up walking out with a MB or MBP.

Neiman Marcus does a billion in sales a quarter. Why is it a bad thing to go after some of those dollars (especially when they already have a model like the macbook)?


You really don't think they'll sell a meaningful amount to people getting it is their first mac? Overall, I think apple says 50% of macs bought at their stores are PC users. I think that number may be a bit lower, but even if 20-30% are to PC users, that's a modest increase in market share (and people who may consider a mac when they get around to replacing their desktop).

Not to mention PC users who come in to check out the air and walk out with a MB or MBP instead - while it's not a sale of the air, it's still an increase in marketshare because of it.


The specs are facts.

The niche is people willing to pay, and people who value the reduction in size and weight, mainly people who travel heavily.

The idea that there are not many in that niche is your opinion (along with being stupid, flopping, and not making sense).


Except that they are overkill for an average user and way more expensive. Why are you OK with charging more for a box not tailored to the average needs in those cases, but not with the MBA?


And yet the average pickup only seats two comfortably - it's a design that doesn't meet the average need, but they still sell plenty. The point is that companies make products that don't please everyone. And they make plenty of money on those products.


It may be unusable for you, but that doesn't mean it's unusable for everyone. I have a laptop, and I never use the optical drive or ports beyond USB. You continue to speak of "everyone"...what qualifies you to be the spokesman for "everyone"?


I didn't say a size and weight reduction is "an exercise in new technology". I said it's an advantage to the user.

They are sacrificing some features, but they are gaining an advantage in size and weight. YOU don't value that advantage. But that doesn't mean that advantage doesn't exist, or that nobody else values it. Do you at least acknowledge that advantage?

And you need to realize that making a product smaller makes it more expensive. Miniaturization costs money, more than the amount saved by leaving off a couple ports. If apple was screwing customers on the pricing for this, find me a comparable machine (this size and weight) in the MB price range. They don't exist.

While Apple is certainly the first usage of this Merom on a 22x22mm chip Intel did announce it's plans for reducing the chip down from 35x35mm to the MBA chip size many months before the MBA was announced.

There is also evidence that others OEMs will have access to this chip, too. I wonder if Apple is getting anything from Intel for it's position here. Id est, it almost seems as if Apple built the MBA around the processor to help sell a new chip for Intel. If so, then is Apple getting any kick back from any new OEMs jumping on board or getting more exclusivity to new chips.

Very well stated: concise, well-thought-out.

I'm flatly saying that even the rich won't buy this machine. Contrary to popular opinion they do have a little bit of gray mater between their ears and can see the AIR for what it is. Sure Apple might be successful in selling to Paris Hilton but even she would have problems as there is no Firewire to plug in her video camera.

Yep I give the machine 3 months for sales to tank.

Well they could of but I don't really believe this is how we turn AIR into a hot selling product.

I really don't see the processor as an issue. Sure many have been conditioned that faster is always better but there are so many other short comings that processor speed means nothing on this device.

They also need to address the rip off pricing of the SSD. There is no justification for that high price.

Not to broaden appeal but to eliminate that mass revulsion at the lack of ports.

Much cheaper like less than a MacBook.

The battery is an interesting issue. For many a replaceable battery is a better choice, but I could see the day when that won't be permitted. Mostly due to environmental issues and forced recycling.

I'm not sure we could call AIR a lack in innovation it is more like a lack of understanding the customer. Lets face it there are good things in AIR, but the sum of the parts don't end up being $1700.

Dave

Let me make sure I'm understanding the criticisms correctly.

1 Apple should have priced the air lower (price it like the macbook...also meaning it couldn't have the same degree of miniaturization, so it would be bigger and heavier...like the macbook)
2 Apple should have added more features (making it larger/heavier...like the macbook)

So it boils down to overall it should be more like the macbook. But why bother making a new model in that case?

I guess people want apple to take the macbook and shrink the size and weight...but without cutting features, and without raising the price.

If it really was possible to get all the MB features into a much thinner and lighter box for the same price, wouldn't some company be doing just that (and selling a ton?).

Your statements are ridiculous too. A compact size has a higher cost.


Ah! An ignoramus. How much are you willing to bet?


But it's still more money for Apple.


What makes you think the pricing would be a lot better? Ultralights are more expensive than regular notebooks.


No it's not. It's possible to be profitable in a niche.


But the cost/return is comparable. A car that costs twice as much isn't going to be twice the car. It'll be nicer, have a few gimmicky features, but in all, the diminishing returns takes hold.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I have maybe 40 gigs of music and photos on my main desktop computer. It all fits on my iPod Classic. Therefore to listen to music, I have no need to load all those files onto my Air at all. Maybe a year from now I'll spend $100 or 2 and get a bigger hard drive. In the meantime it's fine. If were a media professional of some type it would rule out the Air, but I'm not.




That's not a fair characterization about how ANY of these discussions have gone. They all start with people asserting that the Air is so compromised and so expensive that only a complete moron would buy one. I've never seen anyone assert that it's a mass market replacement for the MacBook. I have never understood the vitriol directed at the Air. It's detractors (esp. the ones that assert it is a "strategic blunder" of epic proportions) act as if Steve announced that Apple will no longer sell MacBooks or MacBook Pros.


Except for that last bit about obsolescence, who disagrees with that? But the same thing could be said about every specialized product. If you don't want the wind blowing through your hair, don't by a convertable. If you don't want a camcorder that fits in your pocket, buy a bigger cheaper one. If you don't need a 8 cores and high-end networking and storage options, don't buy a MacPro.

I argue the point that adding the ports or harddrive space would increase weight in any significant manner.

That's not a problem. Apple's been making money by being almost completely outside the mass consumer market. The average sell price for most computer makers is about half of Apple's.


I don't think that's under Apple's control, that's the problem with the technology. Show me a cheaper 64GB SSD. I don't think you'll find one that's a lot cheaper.

This "too expensive" and "underpowered" ultraportable offers performance in the same class as some dual-G5 pro towers that people somehow manage to keep working with. (And not "just surfing.") It's certainly faster than most computers out there in the world that people are using every day for a whole range of things. It outruns many current Windows notebooks and especially ultraportables. It also has a bigger screen in a smaller volume unit--making it a BETTER ultraportable. (But with fewer ports, a poorer "desktop replacement.")

And with all that, it's still CHEAPER than many Windows ultraportables. And even cheaper than some high-end mainstream notebooks and desktops--the larger, more powerful ones. People do spend $1800 on a computer sometimes and still make rent. Some of them will find the Air to be a good choice--better than the ultraportables that have come before it.

Mac sales have taken off, notebook sales in general are a huge market, and therefore the mainstream MacBook is a BIG seller. If the Air, released for a smaller (but still important) ultraportable market is coming anywhere close to mainstream MacBook sales at any stores, that's surprising to me.

Now let's start criticizing the iPod Classic because it lacks a touch screen and is selling "poorly" compared to the mainstream Nano Be sure to note that the Classic costs SHOCKINGLY MORE than the Nano, and of course pretend that there's no justification for that. Because, like maximum portability in notebooks, maximum capacity in media players is not the top priority for most buyers. And products should not exist for any group except the majority

To focus on this one point...

You think apple is ripping people off and marking this box way up. If that is the case, that means it's possible for someone else to build a comparable machine and charge far less for it (specifically less than $1099).

So find us a comparable machine for less than $1099.

You'll find slower machines. You'll find bigger and heavier machines. You'll find machines with tiny screens. You'll find machines with other disadvantages. But you won't find a machine that beats this one overall for much less (especially not for under $1099).

But go ahead and prove me wrong.


Ports probably wouldn't add much weight but would likely require the machine to be thicker. A bigger HD would require going from a 1.8 version to the 2.5 - I don't see how that could not increase weight and likely size as well. An optical drive would also add size and weight.

I'm done with this discussion. Both sides just keep going in circles and can't or won't try to see the other valid points people are making.

Just be aware of what you are spending your money on. If you want an ultra light/portable/no included optical drive/smaller HD/somewhat slower laptop, buy a MBA.
If you want more speed/bigger HD/included optical drive, but yet still retain good portability...get a Macbook and save $400+.

I personally wouldn't buy a MBA until they lower the price a few hundred dollars. The premium for the portability is too high in my opinion.

And to address the topic of the article...I think "Duh" sums it up well. The MBA is not targeted towards the "general consumer", which means only the select few, or what we've been calling the "niche market", will pay the premium for the portability factor. So of course the demand will trail the original Intel-based Macbook, that should be a no-brainer.

To all of the idiots whining about an "ultra-portable" from Apple for the past year... up yours.

They could have gone with the 160GB 1.8" drive - that wouldn't have been as big of a size jump as going with a 2.5" drive.

I bought two as gifts. Not a problem.

Overkill or not they provide the base requirements that users have.

Ahh but you are still missing the point, those trucks still have the basic hardware that allows them to sell well to those that buy them. That is a base of features that modern transportation requires.

Everyone as I see the market. Can I be considered qualified to judge the market well only time will tell there. The thing is that it is not like I'm unfamiliar with the industry and its history.

All I'm saying is that the numbers are good for nothing more than marketing. Most users simply won't care and walking into the store they are not going to see and size advantage at all.

Acknowledge that it is what physically bigger? I just don't see the advantage of leaving stuff out to reduce weight.

No it doesn't. At least not in the electronics industry. The whole premise of the modern electronic IC is that smaller is cheaper is more capability.

In the context of the AIR I have to disagree with that. Everything I've seen, picture wise, indicates boards designed to be mass produced cheaply. The boards don't even look especially dense.

Well if they don't exist it is pretty had to find a machine isn't it. Instead look at something like the ASUS Eee PC and the packaging density they achieved there. Not that I want to imagine an AIR with Eee PC performance just that there is nothing fancy happening with respect to the electronics in AIR.

In any event maybe iSupply will give us a break down on costs in the near future. From my perspective nothing in AIR should really be that expensive.

Dave