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Report: 400,000 unlocked iPhones loose on Chinese network - Page 3

post #81 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

I can understand why Apple restrained the iPhone to AT&T in the US. But why do the same thing world wide?! They should have provided unlocked iPhones world wide for higher price. Unless they come up with something really good by Jun 08 they might be facing problems selling 10 mil by Macworld 09.

Maybe because they are not free to do so. Neither of us has seen the contract between Apple and ATT, but I am guessing that there is a clause in there that prohibits Apple from selling unlocked iPhones anywhere in the world.
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post #82 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Why should they need to officially state this in the contract?

AT&T has always provided unlocking codes to their customers for FREE --- without any laws requiring them to.

What has all these so-called European sim-locking laws have done --- absolutely nothing.

Not sure you mean with this, but prior to the iPhone the most that operators have done has been to put the operator branding on the phone and this has been easy to flash away.
post #83 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Actually, no --- they are not mature at all.

Quote:

"Subsidies on mobile handsets has in Finland been prohibited since 1997. Instead of handset subsidies Finnish mobile operators attract subscribers by offering packages of free talk time or other bundled goods (e.g. digital cameras, backpacks, and DVD players)."

http://www.netlab.tkk.fi/opetus/s380...berg_paper.pdf

I find it even more troubling for the consumers when carriers bundled something that is totally unrelated with cell phone service.

Glad you mentioned this. I need to go get my DVD, or toaster, summer vaction in Greece, or whatever the deal of the day is. When I got my subscritpion, I got free calls, and a bunch of SMS's.

You might want to check out:

http://paketti.elisa.fi/ (It's in Finnish but as you will notice there quasi-subsidized phones)

http://www.dnafinland.fi/welcome.do;...AE3F41F0A06F19

http://www.sonera.fi/Puhelin+ja+liit...a+liittym%E4si

In some cases they get around the subsidizing by selling the phones over a 24 month period. Sort of a rent to own. In this way, they can throw a bunch of minutes and SMS's at the customer while hooking him to a nice new shiny phone.
post #84 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Look at the monthly phone plans in France --- they are very expensive.

99% of the population would rather have 4 US national carriers with the largest carrier being weaker than the number 2 carrier (VZW). This is how AT&T had to eat up the Apple iphone tax all by themselves (US iphone plan is the same as regular price voice plan plus regular price data plan --- consumer paid zero iphone tax).

When the top 2 French carriers have 85% of the market --- that's how things get really duopolistic and the consumers suffers.

Which populations are you talking about?
post #85 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Not sure you mean with this, but prior to the iPhone the most that operators have done has been to put the operator branding on the phone and this has been easy to flash away.

Why should AT&T Wireless have to specifically write up this unlocking provision in the iphone contract?

Prior to the iphone's launch, AT&T Wireless has always provided unlocking codes to their customers --- without having such unlocking terms written in their contracts and without the US government writing sim-locking laws.

You either trust AT&T Wireless words or not --- and AT&T Wireless has a proven track record of providing unlocking codes to their customers.
post #86 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

In some cases they get around the subsidizing by selling the phones over a 24 month period. Sort of a rent to own. In this way, they can throw a bunch of minutes and SMS's at the customer while hooking him to a nice new shiny phone.

The history lesson that the iphone launch in Europe has taught us that most of the European laws on simlocking and anti-bundling are practically useless.

Apple should hire "doctor evil" from the austin powers movie to do commerical for the iphone. The government requires you to sell an unlocked iphone --- so the price of a unlocked iphone is --- evil laughs --- 1 zillion euros.

The more the legal restrictions --- the more "creative" the carriers have with "get around" solutions. The more "creative" the solution, the worst off for the consumers because consumers can't really see what's going on.
post #87 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

The history lesson that the iphone launch in Europe has taught us that most of the European laws on simlocking and anti-bundling are practically useless.

Apple should hire "doctor evil" from the austin powers movie to do commerical for the iphone. The government requires you to sell an unlocked iphone --- so the price of a unlocked iphone is --- evil laughs --- 1 zillion euros.

The more the legal restrictions --- the more "creative" the carriers have with "get around" solutions. The more "creative" the solution, the worst off for the consumers because consumers can't really see what's going on.

Your supposition is that European customers are stupid and can't read. Well, the general consensus among European customers could be that American subscribers are dumb for paying for a locked phone.

My take is, if you didn't have subsidized phones, you would have to pay full price. Personally, I don't mind paying full price because I can: a. sell the phone when I want and not still be stuck with a subscription I do not want, 2. Buy the latest and greatest (all unlocked), 3. Not be tied to a potentially lousy network (I have read from both sides that AT&T is lousy and good. The truth is somewhere in the middle).
post #88 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Why should AT&T Wireless have to specifically write up this unlocking provision in the iphone contract?

Prior to the iphone's launch, AT&T Wireless has always provided unlocking codes to their customers --- without having such unlocking terms written in their contracts and without the US government writing sim-locking laws.

You either trust AT&T Wireless words or not --- and AT&T Wireless has a proven track record of providing unlocking codes to their customers.

I was an AT&T customer for about 4 hours. This was the time it took me to purchase, get home, download software and unlock my iPhone. Personally, I would put a European network up against AT&T any day for a performance and customer satisfaction review.



p.s. By the way, you know this is all subject and opinion. You are speaking from your position of using AT&T (my assumption, so if I am wrong forgive me), while I am speaking for the position of using several European, Middle Eastern, and Nordic operators.
post #89 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

I was an AT&T customer for about 4 hours. This was the time it took me to purchase, get home, download software and unlock my iPhone. Personally, I would put a European network up against AT&T any day for a performance and customer satisfaction review.



p.s. By the way, you know this is all subject and opinion. You are speaking from your position of using AT&T (my assumption, so if I am wrong forgive me), while I am speaking for the position of using several European, Middle Eastern, and Nordic operators.

Whether you like AT&T or not --- that's not the issue here.

The issue is that AT&T has always unlock their phones for free for their customers --- without putting it in their contract and without any government intervention.
post #90 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Your supposition is that European customers are stupid and can't read. Well, the general consensus among European customers could be that American subscribers are dumb for paying for a locked phone.

No, I didn't say that.

Every for-profit company will try to con you with the fine print --- at the very least bundling a cell phone with a service contract gives the general consumer a better sense of the transaction. By outlawing such bunding in Finland --- it created an even cloudier transaction for the Finnish consumers because the carriers were bundling a DVD player with a cell phone contract.
post #91 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Whether you like AT&T or not --- that's not the issue here.

The issue is that AT&T has always unlock their phones for free for their customers --- without putting it in their contract and without any government intervention.

Fine if you say so. I don't care. My phones are NEVER locked. If you are happy with then great. Another happy customer.
post #92 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

No, I didn't say that.

Every for-profit company will try to con you with the fine print --- at the very least bundling a cell phone with a service contract gives the general consumer a better sense of the transaction. By outlawing such bunding in Finland --- it created an even cloudier transaction for the Finnish consumers because the carriers were bundling a DVD player with a cell phone contract.

Never saw any DVD deals. Please point one out. The links I posted spell it out pretty clearly (even in Finnish) what people are paying for. FInnish people are pretty smart. Most can speak at least 2 or three languages besides Finnish. You seem the one that is confused about this. People aren't walking around here wondering what phone tariff they have or if there phones will be unlocked at the end of 2 years.
post #93 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Never saw any DVD deals. Please point one out. The links I posted spell it out pretty clearly (even in Finnish) what people are paying for. FInnish people are pretty smart. Most can speak at least 2 or three languages besides Finnish. You seem the one that is confused about this. People aren't walking around here wondering what phone tariff they have or if there phones will be unlocked at the end of 2 years.

As I stated, there are all kinds of limited time specials on both sides of the Atlantic as well.

AT&T and Verizon just put out the $99 unlimited minutes voice plan.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1203...googlenews_wsj

It has nothing to do with "smart" or "not smart". It has to do with another layer of fine print. Americans don't walk around here wondering whether they should use SMS because their voice minutes are running low --- they can afford a zillion voice minutes.
post #94 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

As I stated, there are all kinds of limited time specials on both sides of the Atlantic as well.

AT&T and Verizon just put out the $99 unlimited minutes voice plan.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1203...googlenews_wsj

It has nothing to do with "smart" or "not smart". It has to do with another layer of fine print. Americans don't walk around here wondering whether they should use SMS because their voice minutes are running low --- they can afford a zillion voice minutes.

I am still trying to get the gist of the points you are trying to make. Unlocking phones in Europe and pretty much of the rest of the world seems to be a great idea and working well. As I said again, your DVD player stories are unheard of at least for as long as I have been here. Free minutes (nothing is free) or SMS's have been a staple of the FInnish mobile phone industry for quite some time. It seems that you have a problem with it working here and it working well. This mythical fine print doesn't seem to exist anywhere but in your world. The contracts I subscribe to are spelled out in detail.
post #95 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

I am still trying to get the gist of the points you are trying to make. Unlocking phones in Europe and pretty much of the rest of the world seems to be a great idea and working well. As I said again, your DVD player stories are unheard of at least for as long as I have been here. Free minutes (nothing is free) or SMS's have been a staple of the FInnish mobile phone industry for quite some time. It seems that you have a problem with it working here and it working well. This mythical fine print doesn't seem to exist anywhere but in your world. The contracts I subscribe to are spelled out in detail.

The "story" I cited came from an academic paper from an university in Helsinki. On the one hand, you said Finnish people are smart. On the other hand, you are going to completely ignore your own country's academic research.

Unlocked phones are only 1 side of the coin, the other side is price plans. Look at the iphone launch in Europe --- it has exposed that Europe has higher handset price and higher monthly price plan.
post #96 of 110
Belgium also have laws against bundling phones with contract plans.

There are 2 cases going to the European Court of Justice (C-261/07 VTB-VAB NV v Total Belgium NV and C-299/07 Galatea BVBA v. Sanoma Magazines Belgium NV) that will decide whether Belgium's anti-bundling law violates EU consumer protection laws.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/...ogy/iphone.php

Finland is next to see if their national consumer laws violate EU consumer protection laws.
post #97 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

The "story" I cited came from an academic paper from an university in Helsinki. On the one hand, you said Finnish people are smart. On the other hand, you are going to completely ignore your own country's academic research.

Unlocked phones are only 1 side of the coin, the other side is price plans. Look at the iphone launch in Europe --- it has exposed that Europe has higher handset price and higher monthly price plan.

Uhhhhh.... First things first. I am not Finnish. I just happen to work here. Fine, about the "story", what info am I ignoring? You mean the DVD, trip to Acapulco give away, or the BMW 7 Series grand prize with a two year contract? I say again, I have not seen any of the things you say exist in this story. Maybe you post the link and I can see this for myself.

Just sayin.
post #98 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Belgium also have laws against bundling phones with contract plans.

There are 2 cases going to the European Court of Justice (C-261/07 VTB-VAB NV v Total Belgium NV and C-299/07 Galatea BVBA v. Sanoma Magazines Belgium NV) that will decide whether Belgium's anti-bundling law violates EU consumer protection laws.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/...ogy/iphone.php

Finland is next to see if their national consumer laws violate EU consumer protection laws.


Where did the article mention Finland? Finland's only gripe with the iPhone was that it didn't have a 3G radio inside. To be tied to a subscription, the phone must be 3G capable. As we all know the iPhone isn't.
post #99 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Where did the article mention Finland? Finland's only gripe with the iPhone was that it didn't have a 3G radio inside. To be tied to a subscription, the phone must be 3G capable. As we all know the iPhone isn't.

The Belgium case will set the precedent in the European Courts in which Finland must adhere to.
post #100 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Uhhhhh.... First things first. I am not Finnish. I just happen to work here. Fine, about the "story", what info am I ignoring? You mean the DVD, trip to Acapulco give away, or the BMW 7 Series grand prize with a two year contract? I say again, I have not seen any of the things you say exist in this story. Maybe you post the link and I can see this for myself.

Just sayin.

I cited an academic research paper from a Finnish university --- and you called it a "story".

Next, are you going to say that Holocaust doesn't exist because I don't post the exact link and you can't see it for yourself.
post #101 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

I cited an academic research paper from a Finnish university --- and you called it a "story".

Next, are you going to say that Holocaust doesn't exist because I don't post the exact link and you can't see it for yourself.

Of course the Holocaust existed. There are pictures. Facts, documents, survivors. For lack of a better word, PROOF. Your article exists for the time being, only in your mind. If you don't want to post the link don't. If you don't have a link that is equally fine as well.

Quote:
......because I don't post the exact link and you can't see it for yourself.

I just thought about this again. Actually I would be inclined to call this a lie but as I do not know you well enough one way or the other, I am willing to stick with what I see, or in your case, what I don't see.
post #102 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

The Belgium case will set the precedent in the European Courts in which Finland must adhere to.

You obviously have no clues about Finns. You can go ask the operators if their big branding campaign was successful or not. People opted to pay full price for a phone rather than have branding crap, and crippled phones. The same will happen here as well. You might see some attempts to lock phones to a network but operators and phone manufacturers know that the subscribers will not go for it. Considering the fact that no contractual deal could be struck between Apple and the operators is proof positive that locked phones will not fly here.
post #103 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

You obviously have no clues about Finns. You can go ask the operators if their big branding campaign was successful or not. People opted to pay full price for a phone rather than have branding crap, and crippled phones. The same will happen here as well. You might see some attempts to lock phones to a network but operators and phone manufacturers know that the subscribers will not go for it. Considering the fact that no contractual deal could be struck between Apple and the operators is proof positive that locked phones will not fly here.

But that's MY point, isn't it?

Whether the carriers would do certain things have nothing to do with these European legal consumer protection frameworks. Without any US government intervention and without any contractual terms obligating American carriers to provide unlocking codes --- American carriers do provide unlocking codes to their customers.

You can have the European Court of Justice striking down the Belgium and Finnish simlocking/anti-bundling laws --- and these Belgium and Finnish carriers may very well still provide unlocked phones to their customers.
post #104 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

But that's MY point, isn't it?

Whether the carriers would do certain things have nothing to do with these European legal consumer protection frameworks. Without any US government intervention and without any contractual terms obligating American carriers to provide unlocking codes --- American carriers do provide unlocking codes to their customers.

You can have the European Court of Justice striking down the Belgium and Finnish simlocking/anti-bundling laws --- and these Belgium and Finnish carriers may very well still provide unlocked phones to their customers.

Who knows?

By the way, any chance you will part with that "study" by the "Finnish" university or should we chalk this up as one of life's unsolved mysteries that can not be verified do to lack of information?
post #105 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Who knows?

By the way, any chance you will part with that "study" by the "Finnish" university or should we chalk this up as one of life's unsolved mysteries that can not be verified do to lack of information?

I cited the original source on page 2 --- all the information are on the front page of the pdf file.
post #106 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

I cited the original source on page 2 --- all the information are on the front page of the pdf file.

I missed the part about the Finnish study. Can you point this out?
post #107 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

I missed the part about the Finnish study. Can you point this out?

What Finnish study?

I said I cited repeated about an academic paper from a Finnish university --- and I gave the pdf file as my original source.

Here is another 2 Finnish research people from the same Finnish university and gave a seminar powerpoint presentation at the International Telecommunications Society Biennial Conference in Berlin in 2004.

http://www.netlab.hut.fi/tutkimus/le...nen_slides.pdf
post #108 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

What Finnish study?

I said I cited repeated about an academic paper from a Finnish university --- and I gave the pdf file as my original source.

Here is another 2 Finnish research people from the same Finnish university and gave a seminar powerpoint presentation in 2004.

http://www.netlab.hut.fi/tutkimus/le...nen_slides.pdf

It only took 24 hours to get the link.

While waiting for your info, I took the liberty of contacting several colleagues working for the various operators here in Finland and they all agreed that some give away items were part of the mix. DVD players, and such never were as these would cost more than the handset. I did mention your info as well and they too were asking about your source. Now that you posted it, I can forward it on to them.

Anyway, it says that Elisa wants to have SIMlocks put in place, while the other guys don't. Easy to understand. Elisa is bleeding customers to TeliaSonera, and DNA. Two reasons. TeliaSonera has a better network and DNA has cheaper prices. There were some interesting items in this article that appear to be incorrect. Not that this is a reflection on you, but some of his data and conclusions are not true. Anyway, I am going back to get my DVD or digital camera tomorrow.

As for the unlocking issue. If AT&T does it. Who cares? If they don't. Who cares again? Not me because I bought my iPhone and unlocked my self with the help of a very smart guy (Geohot), who seems to be able to kick Apple's and AT&T's butt any time they throw something at him. Belgium may loose the case but in the end, Finnish customers will not have anyone tell them how to use their phones. Just ain't gonna happen.
post #109 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Belgium may loose the case but in the end, Finnish customers will not have anyone tell them how to use their phones. Just ain't gonna happen.

Except that Nokia is eyeing the same sort of business model as well with their preminet/nokia content discoverer/ovi. Nokia didn't spend $60 million on Loudeye online music store for no reason and they didn't spend a few billion for maps for nothing.

As I said repeatedly --- government rules have nothing to do with what the carriers are going to do and what the general public is willing to accept. Finnish customers may prefer a very cheap locked-up cell phone.
post #110 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab View Post

Except that Nokia is eyeing the same sort of business model as well with their preminet/nokia content discoverer/ovi. Nokia didn't spend $60 million on Loudeye online music store for no reason and they didn't spend a few billion for maps for nothing.

As I said repeatedly --- government rules have nothing to do with what the carriers are going to do and what the general public is willing to accept. Finnish customers may prefer a very cheap locked-up cell phone.

I got you there. Ovi is going after itunes. Hopefully it will be moderatley successful and open up the DRM/pricing model.

I would be willing to bet you a pizza that Finns will not go for any locking of their phones. They would rather pay full price and be able to do with them what they please.
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