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Toshiba rumored to quit HD DVD as Wal-Mart pulls support - Page 6

post #201 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I agree with both of those posts.

MS possibly made a fatal decision in not including HD-DVD as a built-in. They could have sucked up the extra losses. Hell, they lost $1.2 billion for the first five years on their games division since the first XBox came out, EVERY YEAR.

Also, the well publicized failures of the 360's is well known. The fix MS has supposedly incorporated has been doubted to actually fix the problem. This is costing MS a whopping $1.3 billion in announced losses just to take care of warrantee costs for that problem alone. Estimates is that it may be too low, as it assumes a 16.5% failure rate, where estimates of that failure rate are that it is at least 30%, and that eventually may include ALL 360' s out there.

Meanwhile, the PS3 is acknowledged to be rock stable.


Yeah, I agree. I think the balance of power in the 360 vs PS3 race just shifted. The end of the format war will definitely help out the PS3, though MS fanbois will be loath to admit it.

Microsoft, meanwhile, will scramble to get a Blu-ray add-on for the 360 out, and/or drop 360 pricing further. On the PS3 side, the console is finally due to get some really good games, and developers are finally starting figuring out how to program efficiently for it, meaning that the PS3's higher limits should start coming into play. I'd expect worldwide PS3 sales for 2008 to outpace the 360, though I'm sure MS will put up a heckuva fight.

Though, can anything knock off the Wii? It's so very well-positioned with that low price during a time of economic uncertainty. And mainstream gamers just flat-out love it.

.
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post #202 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

MS possibly made a fatal decision in not including HD-DVD as a built-in.

And who knows, maybe HD DVD drives would have been less likely to scratch discs?
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post #203 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

I'd expect worldwide PS3 sales for 2008 to outpace the 360, though I'm sure MS will put up a heckuva fight.

I agree, but how will MS respond? While they are reportedly now making money on each 360 sale, they are still Billions in the hole. Will they add a Blu-ray player to the make an 360 a viable unit for gaming and watching HD media, will they announce a new console for gaming that contains a Blu-ray/DVD player, or will they ignore Blu-ray altogether. I think they have to eat some humble pie and go with the first option to stay competitive and recoup some of their substantial loses on the gaming front.
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post #204 of 312
http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/m...s-rrod-at-gdc/

They hand picked xbox360 units for a conference, and one of them still got the red ring of death - hah hah, next time test your hardware better before rushing it into production to beat Sony to the market. The PS3 can run for days in a sauna, the xbox can't be placed on carpet or it overheats - Microsoft is a company filled with morons.
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post #205 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/m...s-rrod-at-gdc/

They hand picked xbox360 units for a conference, and one of them still got the red ring of death - hah hah, next time test your hardware better before rushing it into production to beat Sony to the market. The PS3 can run for days in a sauna, the xbox can't be placed on carpet or it overheats - Microsoft is a company filled with morons.


Wow... Engadget is just straight clowning on MS:

Just days ago, we heard that Microsoft's Xbox 360 failure rate was at a staggering 16-percent. Not helping Redmond's cause in making you believe otherwise, one of the hand-picked machines used at the 2008 Game Developers Conference was actually suffering from the infamous Red Ring of Death. Comedic gold? Yes, indeed.


I know they deserve it, but again, wow. The 360 is really cementing its rep as a reliability problem child/POS.

.
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post #206 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Wow... Engadget is just straight clowning on MS:

Just days ago, we heard that Microsoft's Xbox 360 failure rate was at a staggering 16-percent. Not helping Redmond's cause in making you believe otherwise, one of the hand-picked machines used at the 2008 Game Developers Conference was actually suffering from the infamous Red Ring of Death. Comedic gold? Yes, indeed.


I know they deserve it, but again, wow. The 360 is really cementing its rep as a reliability problem child/POS.

.

The unfortunate part is that I do have friends that work at MS. They're a really good bunch. I can only figure that the XBOX is a good architecture executed tragically by beancounter crippled manufacturers. The only horror story I've heard concerning the PS3 is the one where they tried to void the warranty due to excessive "dust" and that played out to the customers satisfaction in the end.
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post #207 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post


In addition, given the time they've had to work on it, gaming companies have said that the tools provided have finally matured. They were pretty rough at launch, and that contributed to the game delays later on. but this is behind them, and more games are arriving.

Are you forgetting how rapidly new gen consoles sprout up? By the time the PS3 "catches up" (if it ever does) the new consoles will be coming out. Now Sony can possibly be in a good position for next gen depending on how games go in development. I personally do not think devs will make games on Blu Ray cause it's too niche. But I may be wrong. The thing is nobody knows at this point and at this point in time, despite having more potential than an Xbox360 the PS3 still is not the better choice for gaming.


Quote:
I've found it to be very interesting that for the past year, the anti-PS3 and Sony camp has alternately said that while the PS3 was a better player, it was an inferior game machine, then, despite it being a better game machine, it was an inferior player.

I've also read ad nausium that it sold because it was a player, but not as a console, and that it sold because it was a console, but not as a player.

I do wish people would make up their minds!

There has been a lot of fanboyism on every side. It really gets ridiculous. The anti Microsoft crowd has certainly said some irrational stuff. Case in point: that the PS3 is a better gaming system choice.



EDIT: Typos since I was about to run out the door. Sorry.
post #208 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4metta View Post

Are you forgetting how rapidly new gen consoles sprout up? By the time the PS3 "catches up" (if it ever does) the new consoles will be coming out.

How rapidly? About every six years or so (playstation1/2/3 shipped in 1994, 2002, 2006).

If that pace is maintained, PS4 in 2012.

PS1 sold 102 million. PS2 sold 120 million (and counting). So far Wii has only hit 20 million, typically sales ramp up over the lifetime of a console as prices drop and the game library gets bigger.

Do you honestly think that only 1.5 years after release, and with the top console only at 20 million, AND with bluray winning the HD battle, there's no way for PS3 to catch up over the next FOUR YEARS?

Really?
post #209 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4metta View Post

Are you forgetting how rapidly new gen consoles sprout up? By the time the PS3 "catches up" (if it ever does) the new consoles will be coming out.

Meh... the PS3 is about 7 million consoles behind the 360 in total sold, which isn't that much if you consider that in the previous generation, around 165 million consoles got sold (mostly PS2s).

The three next-gen consoles, between them, have sold around 48 million units so far worldwide. As games go, this one's barely finished the first quarter.


Quote:
There has been a lot of fanboyism on every side. It really gets ridiculous. The anti Microsoft crowd has certainly said some irrational stuff. Case in point: that the PS3 is a better gaming system choice.

It may end up being better in the end. Remember the PS2? Had maybe two good games at launch. Yet it ended up having the deepest and best gaming library of any console of its generation (with only a small minority of the hardest core Nintenheads and Microsofties disagreeing). Heck, it still sells well today, on the strength of its library, plus being cheap.

All I know is, the Blu-Ray factor will likely tide the PS3 over 'til the library of games gets better--- tide it over and then some, actually, considering that many ppl who were waiting on the sidelines to buy a next-gen disc player were waiting for the format war to be resolved; it now is, and the best Blu-Ray player is the PS3.

The PS3 will likely outsell the 360 in 2008 worldwide sales. The interesting questions are, by how much? And can it catch the Wii?

I think we're in for one helluva three-way console war, and it won't be resolved any time soon.

.
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post #210 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post


Though, can anything knock off the Wii? It's so very well-positioned with that low price during a time of economic uncertainty. And mainstream gamers just flat-out love it.

.

Nothing lasts forever.

It was thought that Sony OWNED the console game space. Well, we see what happened.

I'm convinced though, that with what I've said about manufacturing costs, the PS3 price will eventually, perhaps in the next year to 18 months, come down enough so that it will be no higher, and possibly lower, than the price of the 360, and not much higher than that of the Wii.

On a longer term, I believe the price should come in at $250. What will Nintendo do? They can't come down by the same percentage.

The advantages of the PS3 will be realized at the lower price points.
post #211 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

So now we are slamming people for posting news that is 9 hours old? AI didn't post an article on it and I had not read that so I'm quite glad minderbinder posted the link.

Geez. What bug crawled up your butt? Slamming? Are you aware of what things like \ mean? It was all over the big news outlets anyway. If you just rely on AI for your news, you've got bigger problems.
post #212 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I know about the memory leaks. But I often keep Safari running for days without any problems.

But the question is: how much RAM do you have and how many other RAM-hogging applications do you have? For me, running OmniWeb (webkit based) and Word on my MacBook with 1 GB RAM can get very trying if there are other apps I want to use in addition to those two. If those two apps could at least cut their RAM usage in half (even then, it would still be excessive), it'd make things a lot nicer.

For my GF with 768 MB RAM, Safari's memory leaks are also a problem.
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post #213 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancho View Post

And who knows, maybe HD DVD drives would have been less likely to scratch discs?

MS has had a lot of problems, including that one. The other was that the DVD playback was supposed to be horrible, though I never saw a DVD through a 360, there has been a slew of articles about that. I don't know if it was fixed or not.
post #214 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I agree, but how will MS respond? While they are reportedly now making money on each 360 sale, they are still Billions in the hole. Will they add a Blu-ray player to the make an 360 a viable unit for gaming and watching HD media, will they announce a new console for gaming that contains a Blu-ray/DVD player, or will they ignore Blu-ray altogether. I think they have to eat some humble pie and go with the first option to stay competitive and recoup some of their substantial loses on the gaming front.

A couple of months ago, MS was asked that question, and the response was that if there was sufficient demand for it, they would have one.
post #215 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancho View Post

The unfortunate part is that I do have friends that work at MS. They're a really good bunch. I can only figure that the XBOX is a good architecture executed tragically by beancounter crippled manufacturers. The only horror story I've heard concerning the PS3 is the one where they tried to void the warranty due to excessive "dust" and that played out to the customers satisfaction in the end.

Nobody doubts that the people at MS are a good bunch. It's upper management that's the problem.

Unlike Sony, they rushed the 360 out the door. As a manufacturer of electronics years ago, I can tell you that reliability testing is very expensive, and can be time consuming, but it must be done properly.

Either it wasn't done properly, to save money, and get it out, or the results were ignored.
post #216 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The only thing that was more open was the lack of region codes. But, Bd has fewer than DVD currently has, and are not being used to this date. Even so, almost no one cares about that anyway.

Blu-Ray's region codes are being used on some discs. I have a few Sony/CTS titles that at least say they are region coded on the package. There is at least one site that list tested region codes of Blu-Ray discs. Region coding doesn't matter much in the US, but outside the US, it's a much bigger concern for consumers. The last time I saw figures, 70% of DVD players in Europe were region free.

The people that seem to know say that BD-J documentation is quite expensive but HDi is much less so. Blu-Ray supposedly requires the use of a $2500 AACS key to produce a commercial disc, no matter the lot size, and HD DVD did not.
post #217 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Nothing lasts forever.

It was thought that Sony OWNED the console game space. Well, we see what happened.

I'm convinced though, that with what I've said about manufacturing costs, the PS3 price will eventually, perhaps in the next year to 18 months, come down enough so that it will be no higher, and possibly lower, than the price of the 360, and not much higher than that of the Wii.

On a longer term, I believe the price should come in at $250. What will Nintendo do? They can't come down by the same percentage.

The advantages of the PS3 will be realized at the lower price points.


I tend to agree, but the Wii is going to be hard to catch. They've already made their rep as the runaway hit of this console generation; meanwhile, Sony is going to have to fight to overcome their rep as an underachiever, thanks to the lackluster first year of the PS3.

Yes, the stars are starting to align the PS3's way: Blu-Ray won the format war, the PS3 price drop has helped (and no doubt there's more to come), Sony's online efforts are getting stronger, and they're finally due to starting to get some good games. All good in a conventional console war.

But the Wii isn't a conventional opponent, due to its ability to appeal to mainstream gamers, and even what were previously non-gamers.

When you see news stories about senior citizens happily playing Wii Bowling together in retirement homes, you know something's up in a paradigm-shifting way.

.
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post #218 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4metta View Post

Are you forgetting how rapidly new gen consoles sprout up? By the time the PS3 "catches up" (if it ever does) the new consoles will be coming out. Now can possibly Sony be in a good position for next gen depending on how games go in development. I personally do not think devs will make games on Blu Ray cause it's too niche. But I may be wrong. The thing is nobody knows at this point and at this point in time, despite having more potential than an Xbox360 the PS3 still is not the better choice for gaming.

How fast do they sprout up? Every five or six years.

The PS3 will catch up in a year to 18 months, maybe even surpass the Wii in that time. I've read that it's expected that in the long term, the PS3 is expected to become number one, but not buy as much as before.

Also, it's possible that this console might last longer. The Wii is way behind in the area of capability. There might have to be another before Sony has to do their own. Or each company may just have to improve what they have now rather than starting over.

Quote:
There has been a lot of fanboyism on every side. It really gets ridiculous. The anti Microsoft crowd has certainly said some irrational stuff. Case in point: that the PS3 is a better gaming system choice.

I haven't been a gamer for years. My daughter is the one. She has all of the previous generation, and the one before that. Right now, she has the Wii. We'll be getting the PS3 once I know what the new model does in regards to backwards compatibility. That's up in the air right now.

Neither of us have an interest in the 360.
post #219 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Nobody doubts that the people at MS are a good bunch. It's upper management that's the problem.

Unlike Sony, they rushed the 360 out the door. As a manufacturer of electronics years ago, I can tell you that reliability testing is very expensive, and can be time consuming, but it must be done properly.

Either it wasn't done properly, to save money, and get it out, or the results were ignored.


Having worked in the console gaming industry, I can tell you that within it, there's little to no doubt that Microsoft's strategy was to get the 360 out in time for Holiday Season '05, come hell or high water.

The thing could've been found to cause bubonic plague, and MS still would've shipped it. They desperately wanted one Christmas all to themselves in the next-gen console race, and they got it. I just feel bad for anyone who beta-tested... err, bought the thing. \

.
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post #220 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

But the question is: how much RAM do you have and how many other RAM-hogging applications do you have? For me, running OmniWeb (webkit based) and Word on my MacBook with 1 GB RAM can get very trying if there are other apps I want to use in addition to those two. If those two apps could at least cut their RAM usage in half (even then, it would still be excessive), it'd make things a lot nicer.

For my GF with 768 MB RAM, Safari's memory leaks are also a problem.

I use two machines. The one I use for most of my browsing is a mirror door dual 1.25 GHz G4 model, obtained after my older, upgraded, Digital Audio mobo died. (One minute of silence, please!). This has 2Gb RAM. I do various things on it, but no video encoding, though sometimes Photoshop work when my other machine is in use doing encoding.

My other machine is a dual 1GHz G5 with 8GB RAM. I sometimes do browsing with that machine, but do my more difficult work on it.

I keep putting a new machine purchase off, though I have made the decision to go with a Nehalem machine when it comes out, hopefully, later this year, as the chips are due in the third, or latest, the fourth quarter.
post #221 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

I tend to agree, but the Wii is going to be hard to catch. They've already made their rep as the runaway hit of this console generation; meanwhile, Sony is going to have to fight to overcome their rep as an underachiever, thanks to the lackluster first year of the PS3.

That's all true. But I don't see as much potential in new games for the Wii. Tons of people will buy it, but how many games will they buy for it? And will they stay amused or will they get bored and start looking at the less "casual" games available on other platforms? The Wii is a great box, but I wonder if the limitations will make it seem dated faster than the other platforms?

I can see many people having both a Wii and one of the other platforms (probably mostly PS3 going forward)...and buying far more games for the other platform.
post #222 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Blu-Ray's region codes are being used on some discs. I have a few Sony/CTS titles that at least say they are region coded on the package. There is at least one site that list tested region codes of Blu-Ray discs. Region coding doesn't matter much in the US, but outside the US, it's a much bigger concern for consumers. The last time I saw figures, 70% of DVD players in Europe were region free.

The people that seem to know say that BD-J documentation is quite expensive but HDi is much less so. Blu-Ray supposedly requires the use of a $2500 AACS key to produce a commercial disc, no matter the lot size, and HD DVD did not.

I don't know anything about the costs involved. Possibly newer disks are using encoding, I don't know.
post #223 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

I tend to agree, but the Wii is going to be hard to catch. They've already made their rep as the runaway hit of this console generation; meanwhile, Sony is going to have to fight to overcome their rep as an underachiever, thanks to the lackluster first year of the PS3.

Yes, the stars are starting to align the PS3's way: Blu-Ray won the format war, the PS3 price drop has helped (and no doubt there's more to come), Sony's online efforts are getting stronger, and they're finally due to starting to get some good games. All good in a conventional console war.

But the Wii isn't a conventional opponent, due to its ability to appeal to mainstream gamers, and even what were previously non-gamers.

When you see news stories about senior citizens happily playing Wii Bowling together in retirement homes, you know something's up in a paradigm-shifting way.

.

I don't think there's anything the Wii can do that the PS3 can't do as well. The controller is nothing new, there have been controllers like that for computers before the Wii came out. I almost bought one. Both MS and Sony could come out with one if they wanted to.

There is no other current advantage to the Wii other than the lower price, which is becoming less and less.

But the PS3 can do more. For people who want to buy BD disks AND play games, while not spending too much, or who have little room, such as in a college dorm, or small apartment, the PS3 is a no brainer. It's also useful for movie downloads, network play, streaming video and music over the network, browsing the internet, AND you can install a Sony supported Linux distro, if you should want to play with that. And it does it all at 1080p.

What can the Wii do? Well, whatever it does do, which is much less, it does it at 480p widescreen.
post #224 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The PS3 will catch up in a year to 18 months, maybe even surpass the Wii in that time. I've read that it's expected that in the long term, the PS3 is expected to become number one, but not buy as much as before.

I expect PS3 to surpass 360 within 12 months.

According to the chart on page 3 of this thread the 360 has sold 17M units and PS3 has sold 10M units. Considering the 360 has been out twice as long as the PS3 that means it's adoption rate is 17% faster than the 360. That doesn't include the Blu-ray laser production issues it first had or the recent dismissal of HD-DVD.

Anyone know if the 360 sales for its first 12 months without competition from new consoles from Nintendo or Sony?
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post #225 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't think there's anything the Wii can do that the PS3 can't do as well. The controller is nothing new, there have been controllers like that for computers before the Wii came out. I almost bought one. Both MS and Sony could come out with one if they wanted to.

There is no other current advantage to the Wii other than the lower price, which is becoming less and less.

They can imitate the controllers, assuming there aren't patent issues in the way. But even if they ship controllers like that, they are at a disadvantage since those wouldn't be the standard controllers for the console and relatively few games would support them.

It's a HUGE advantage to have a feature as a standard part of the console, included with every box. In that case, every game supports it. Optional add-ons are always limited since there's a chicken/egg thing - people don't buy the add on because there's not enough game support, and devs don't support it because not enough consumers buy it.

Definitely, next time around MS and Sony will probably go with a controller that rips off the Wii. But in the meantime, that's definitely an advantage for Wii.
post #226 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't think there's anything the Wii can do that the PS3 can't do as well. The controller is nothing new, there have been controllers like that for computers before the Wii came out. I almost bought one. Both MS and Sony could come out with one if they wanted to.

There is no other current advantage to the Wii other than the lower price, which is becoming less and less.

But the PS3 can do more. For people who want to buy BD disks AND play games, while not spending too much, or who have little room, such as in a college dorm, or small apartment, the PS3 is a no brainer. It's also useful for movie downloads, network play, streaming video and music over the network, browsing the internet, AND you can install a Sony supported Linux distro, if you should want to play with that. And it does it all at 1080p.

What can the Wii do? Well, whatever it does do, which is much less, it does it at 480p widescreen.


You're kind of preaching to the converted Mel, considering that one of my prior jobs in the console gaming industry was working for Sony.

That said, while I admired a lot of what Sony did, I never quite drank all the Kool-aid. Regardless of whether or not the Wii's motion controller is truly new, it is perceived as such. And its caught on enough that Sony has ALREADY copied some (but not all) of its functionality, by including motion control in its new standard controller, the Sixaxis. Want to play one of the newer flying games on the PS3? Just tilt the controller to bank the plane, spaceship, dragon, whatever. It's cool, but its also Sony chasing Nintendo, in this console generation, anyway. And gamers have noticed.

And the Wii's lower price is not just an advantage, but a devastating advantage, given that the US is about to enter recession, and much of the rest of the rich world will slow down economically concurrently.

Finally, one can't forget that Nintendo has probably the best first-party development studio in the world. Mario, Zelda, Smash Bros, etc. etc.... they just never seem to run out of hits.

Now, I'm very well aware of the PS3's advantages- much more emphasis on online gaming, much better graphics, Blu-Ray player inside, and of course Sony has its own hit games too. But I'm just not willing to count the Wii out. The games are just fun, even if they're not as big among the hardcore, and Nintendo just has seemed to get everything right with this product in order to maximize its appeal to a wider audience than what consoles have traditionally had.

To the hardcore, the PS3 is the obvious choice. To everyone else, it's a lot less clear. This video kind of sums it up:


'I'm a PS3, I'm a Wii' video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S8bngWtLDY



.
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post #227 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't think there's anything the Wii can do that the PS3 can't do as well.

How about "make a net profit selling at its retail price"; can a PS3 do that?
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post #228 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

They can imitate the controllers, assuming there aren't patent issues in the way. But even if they ship controllers like that, they are at a disadvantage since those wouldn't be the standard controllers for the console and relatively few games would support them.

It's a HUGE advantage to have a feature as a standard part of the console, included with every box. In that case, every game supports it. Optional add-ons are always limited since there's a chicken/egg thing - people don't buy the add on because there's not enough game support, and devs don't support it because not enough consumers buy it.

Definitely, next time around MS and Sony will probably go with a controller that rips off the Wii. But in the meantime, that's definitely an advantage for Wii.

That's very true, but not every game benefits from those controllers. Games like racing games that work best with wheels, etc, aren't packed with a console, but are bought by those who like them.

If we're talking about 10 to 20 million people a year buying each type of console, enough would buy the controller, if there was a game they wanted, that needed it.

My daughter has had two floor pads for DDR for years, replacing them as they wear out. That didn't come with the PS2, but are very popular, and new disks are still coming out.
post #229 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

You're kind of preaching to the converted Mel, considering that one of my prior jobs in the console gaming industry was working for Sony.

That said, while I admired a lot of what Sony did, I never quite drank all the Kool-aid. Regardless of whether or not the Wii's motion controller is truly new, it is perceived as such. And its caught on enough that Sony has ALREADY copied some (but not all) of its functionality, by including motion control in its new standard controller, the Sixaxis. Want to play one of the newer flying games on the PS3? Just tilt the controller to bank the plane, spaceship, dragon, whatever. It's cool, but its also Sony chasing Nintendo, in this console generation, anyway. And gamers have noticed.

And the Wii's lower price is not just an advantage, but a devastating advantage, given that the US is about to enter recession, and much of the rest of the rich world will slow down economically concurrently.

Finally, one can't forget that Nintendo has probably the best first-party development studio in the world. Mario, Zelda, Smash Bros, etc. etc.... they just never seem to run out of hits.

Now, I'm very well aware of the PS3's advantages- much more emphasis on online gaming, much better graphics, Blu-Ray player inside, and of course Sony has its own hit games too. But I'm just not willing to count the Wii out. The games are just fun, even if they're not as big among the hardcore, and Nintendo just has seemed to get everything right with this product in order to maximize its appeal to a wider audience than what consoles have traditionally had.

To the hardcore, the PS3 is the obvious choice. To everyone else, it's a lot less clear. This video kind of sums it up:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S8bngWtLDY


.

Yeah, sorry. Sometimes when I post, knowing that others will read it, I post for a general reader as well as to the person I'm posting to.

I'm certainly not counting the Wii out. I just think that the PS3 hasn't hit its stride yet, while the Wii has. The Wii has no where to go from here. More of the same, while the PS3 is just getting started, and the price drops will be devastating to the competition. When there is but a $50 or even a $25 difference between the price of the PS3 and the Wii, what will happen?
post #230 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

How about "make a net profit selling at its retail price"; can a PS3 do that?

They're actually quite close right now. I believe each console costs ~$400 which is pretty good this early in its life cycle. They're still a ways off from the sort of profitability Nintendo's enjoying but the PS3 is a solid product that they seem to be managing well.
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post #231 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

TBell, do you intentionally make your posts hard to read with tons of spelling, grammatical and factual errors? Proofread, spellcheck, edit and above all, check your facts, please. You keep telling people to do Google searches but never cite any websites that back your claims. Everybody knows you can't trust everything you read on the Web, but you don't give us any way to judge the sites you're using to back up your arguments. No reputable websites back your contention that Sony or the BDA paid off Fox or Warner. Your other points are just as shaky.

Besides, when all is said and done, you can rail and rant all you want that it wasn't a fair fight and Sony did this and Sony screwed up, but the simple, undeniable fact of the matter is Blu-ray won. You can type until your fingers are raw and it won't change a blessed thing.


First, this is America, I don't have to spell check. You want to read perfect spelling and grammar, go read the New York Times. Being that English is not my first language, I think I am doing OK. Moreover, if you want to criticize people, at least offer them corrections so they know what you are talking about. When you offer the corrections, please also provide sources since you seem to be into that.

As far as my sources go, here is the appropriate Google search for HD sales: http://www.google.com/views?q=hd+sta...=N&ct=infoview

You will notice that there are quite a few reputable sites that show up in the search.

Here is one for behind the scene deals that lead to Warner and Fox going with Blue Ray:
http://www.google.com/views?q=hd+sta...=N&ct=infoview


My only point is simple: consumers didn't decide the winner. Nowhere did I rail and rant that the fight wasn't fair.
post #232 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

When there is but a $50 or even a $25 difference between the price of the PS3 and the Wii, what will happen?


The PS3 will absolutely rock the house when the price delta becomes that low. But that day is still a couple of years away.

In the meanwhile, I see PS3 sales increasing, but more at the expense of the Xbox 360, not the Wii.


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post #233 of 312
No, you are correct. I am not making the argument that format turned people off of the PS3. I think people could care less, other then there is more Blue Ray content. Price is what turned people off.

Sony might have more room to drop prices. If analysts are correct, however, Sony currently is still taking a hefty loss on the sale of the players. Microsoft on the other hand is making a profit on the sale of the player. So is Nintendo. If Microsoft and Nintendo wanted to play hardball with Sony, they could more easily lower the cost of their units. If history is any indicator, Sony would have to follow suit. In doing so, Sony would even bleed more money, while Microsoft and Nintendo would suffer much less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Now that is a really specious argument. If you were to argue that the price of the PS3 was too high in the beginning, and part of that reason was the inclusion of the BD drive, it would make sense.

But please don't try to tell people that the PS3 didn't sell as well as it should have because of BD, the format, as you are implying!

Price, yes. Format, no. Now that the price has dropped to just $50 more than the 360, sales have jumped, and are actually higher than the 360. It's a far better value.

You do know that the BD player plays DVD and CD's as well, don't you? There is no reason for someone who knows what the unit is to not buy it because of it.

Jeez, the game mags, and sites, have explained this very well, ad infinitum.

Sony also has more room to drop prices than MS does, BECAUSE of the newer technology.
post #234 of 312
I never said that Toshiba decided for people. I said content providers and retailers decided for people. As far as the Warner and Fox claims go, I notice you haven't provided any sources debunking the pay off claims. If it has been debunked so many times, you could easily provide the sources.

It is true both formats have DRM capabilities. However, HD-DVD has the ability to shut it off. As a content provider you have to pay for the DRM licensing rights. That ultimately drives the cost of content up, even in the case of content providers who otherwise wouldn't use DRM if not required to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Your numbers are off. The ratio during most of the time up to the last quarter was 2 to 1, not 4 to 1.

But that bgan to change in the holiday season, as BD player sales increased more than Hd-DVD sales did. and that was after Toshiba paid Paramount to stop producing BD disks.

You might say that Toshiba ws the one trying to decide for us.

That BS about Fox and Warner has been debunked so many times already it's not worth mentioning it.

Your second to last paragraph is correct, but then you go and spoil it again with the silliness in the last one.

BD has the same DRM as HD-DVD. Look it up. Both have Managed Copy. that's all that matters. As though most people will want to pay more for extras.
post #235 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

[B]First, this is America, I don't have to spell check.

Indeed you don't have to. But it is advisable if you want people to pay attention, read your posts and take you seriously. If you don't want that to happen, why bother posting in a public forum?

That said, I think you're doing a very good job if English is not your native tongue. In fact, I must congratulate you on using "its" correctly! But since you asked, here are corrections (for your education) to some of the mistakes you made in your first long post to this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Blue Ray ... Blueray

Both should be "Blu-Ray"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

far more HD players were sold as stand alone units then Blue Ray players

Should be "far more HD players were sold as stand alone units than Blue Ray players"


Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

stand alone

Should be "stand-alone"


Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

the DVD player build in the PS2

Should be "the DVD player built into the PS2"


Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

retailors

Is spelt "retailers"


Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

whatever format is hand feed to them

Should be "whatever format is hand-fed to them"


Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Companies like Best Buy, Walmart, Blockbuster, and Netflix could care less

Should be "Companies like Best Buy, Walmart, Blockbuster, and Netflix couldn't care less" (sarcastic inversion isn't valid in written communication).
it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
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post #236 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

[B]
Here is one for behind the scene deals that lead to Warner and Fox going with Blue Ray:
http://www.google.com/views?q=hd+sta...=N&ct=infoview

That one has been debunked.

Quote:
My only point is simple: consumers didn't decide the winner. Nowhere did I rail and rant that the fight wasn't fair.

What is this nonsense about consumers?

Consumers never fully make a choice. The Beta-VHS war was the only other time when there was a real choice. This is no different. Even so, companies make the final decisions, as they must.

Other than that, companies always make the choice. And that's how it should be. Consumers don't have access to the important technical and economic issues that the companies must deal with. After all, if they can't make money from it, they they can't produce it.

Did we have a choice with Edison cylinder? How about the various "78"s" that came out after? What about the RCA 45, and Columbia's 33 and a third?

How about tape? 15 ips 10.5"? 7.5 ips 7"? 3 3/4 ips?

8 track?

Cassette?

AM?

FM?

CD?

DVD?

What does the consumer get a choice in that results in a standard?

NTSC?

The lightbulb? AC vs DC?

Inventors, and companies, decide that. Sometimes the government must step in so that things don't get out of hand, such as the FCC.

Consumers get a chance to choose which products become popular after a standard is established.

In fact, the Beta-VHS and now the BD vs HD-DVD battles were the only major standards battle consumers ever had a say in at all.
post #237 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Sony might have more room to drop prices. If analysts are correct, however, Sony currently is still taking a hefty loss on the sale of the players. Microsoft on the other hand is making a profit on the sale of the player. So is Nintendo. If Microsoft and Nintendo wanted to play hardball with Sony, they could more easily lower the cost of their units. If history is any indicator, Sony would have to follow suit. In doing so, Sony would even bleed more money, while Microsoft and Nintendo would suffer much less.

Actually, sony just declared a several hundred million dollar profit in their games division, while MS declared a few months ago that they were putting over $1.2 billion aside for warrantee repair of the 360. Estimates are that this loss could go very much higher, so they have NO profits in their game division, as warrantee costs must be accounted for in it. Operating profits aside, this cost is coming in as people send their consoles in for repair, sometimes, several times.

MS canr afford to lower prices much, the warrantee costs are killing them as it is.

Nintendo, can lower prices somewhat, as they are making profits on each machine. But, unlike MS and Sony, Nintendo is a one trick pony. All they are is a game company. They must make good profits on all their products.

Besides, Sony is the one lowering prices, not MS or Nintendo, so that spoils your argument. Sony is putting pressure on them, not the other way around. They may have to respond in kind, and they won't be happy about it.
post #238 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

I never said that Toshiba decided for people. I said content providers and retailers decided for people. As far as the Warner and Fox claims go, I notice you haven't provided any sources debunking the pay off claims. If it has been debunked so many times, you could easily provide the sources.

By paying Paramount, Toshiba attempted to sway the consumer. What else is new/ I didn't say you said they decided, but you may as well have said so, by you statements about everyone else, as it amounts to the same thing.

There is no source for the claim, just a rumor spread by him. No one has been able to verify it.

Warner, and others, would have to report the income, just as Paramount had to. You might notice that Paramount never denied the payoff, but both Warner and others have. Sony would also have to report the money, and they denied it as well. They cant do that without getting trouble with the FTc and other agencies if they lied.

By the way, Toshiba's maneuverings in the DVD trade association that led to their approving the HD-DVD amongst much protest may be looked at by the government.

Quote:
It is true both formats have DRM capabilities. However, HD-DVD has the ability to shut it off. As a content provider you have to pay for the DRM licensing rights. That ultimately drives the cost of content up, even in the case of content providers who otherwise wouldn't use DRM if not required to do so.

And just how does it do that? Where does it say that?
post #239 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

MS cant afford to lower prices much, the warrantee costs are killing them as it is.

Yep. Not to mention that, with all the money they're going to have to fork over to buy Yahoo (probably $50 billion, when all is said and done), Microsoft will actually have to stop throwing money at all their other problems for awhile.

That will be fun to watch.


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post #240 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Blu-Ray's region codes are being used on some discs. I have a few Sony/CTS titles that at least say they are region coded on the package. There is at least one site that list tested region codes of Blu-Ray discs. Region coding doesn't matter much in the US, but outside the US, it's a much bigger concern for consumers. The last time I saw figures, 70% of DVD players in Europe were region free.

The people that seem to know say that BD-J documentation is quite expensive but HDi is much less so. Blu-Ray supposedly requires the use of a $2500 AACS key to produce a commercial disc, no matter the lot size, and HD DVD did not.

not to mention ms was giving away free developer tools.

set up costs for B-R for authoring houses are astronomical, as well. i wouldn't expect many titles coming from outside the main studios for a while. java programmers will be in demand, especially for BR-i.

but then again, it wasn't so much different when dvd was new... but there was a lower cost alternative in HD-DVD.
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