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Apple Introduces Xsan 2 - Page 2

post #41 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by demenas View Post

I don't why John Welch's opinion matters more than anyone else's. Or why you have a problem with us sharing our opinion here, but he seems to point out the complaints that were expressed here, and in fact specifically mentioned the support contract issues that I brought up with two vendors involved.

Steve

I find his credentials more plausible than anybody posting here including yours.
post #42 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by demenas View Post

I do. You have no way to know my company's operations and what we're doing.

Thank you.

Steve

Well then, since your company is so different from the norm, why don't you enlighten us, rather than simply making a statement out of the blue?
post #43 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by demenas View Post

It's one of the largest healthcare providers in the U.S. We have 6,000 people in IT alone. I work in the Storage Engineering area, where we manage about 8,000 fibre ports and 5 or 6 petabytes of data. The 6 year plans are more short-term, there are Architectural groups working with the businesses to design their needs 15 years out.

Steve

Fine. But, despit that, you still can't make hardware plans for the next six years, other than to make general planning decisions.

There are no hardware companies that can give any definite plans of where they are going the next 6 years, only general directions.

If any computer manufacturer, or storage vendor, told you what products they would have in six years, they should be ignored, because they don't know.

Hundreds of millions were lost in companies that made plans to move to Longhorn years ago, before it became Vista, and lost many features.

That's why companies don't require more than three years of roadmaps from vendors. They know how nebulous it becomes after that.
post #44 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Fine. But, despit that, you still can't make hardware plans for the next six years, other than to make general planning decisions.

There are no hardware companies that can give any definite plans of where they are going the next 6 years, only general directions.

If any computer manufacturer, or storage vendor, told you what products they would have in six years, they should be ignored, because they don't know.

Hundreds of millions were lost in companies that made plans to move to Longhorn years ago, before it became Vista, and lost many features.

That's why companies don't require more than three years of roadmaps from vendors. They know how nebulous it becomes after that.

I disagree with this comment and agree with demenas. When you present an IT solution to your employer, and he asks you "Why should I spend $30,000 on a file server and is this a good investment?" one of the replies has to be that this technology is scalable and should last for at least 5 years. If you can't come-up with a solution that can back these two main "requirements", then you'll never get the upgrade.
post #45 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by suhail View Post

I disagree with this comment and agree with demenas. When you present an IT solution to your employer, and he asks you "Why should I spend $30,000 on a file server and is this a good investment?" one of the replies has to be that this technology is scalable and should last for at least 5 years. If you can't come-up with a solution that can back these two main "requirements", then you'll never get the upgrade.

That doesn't always work either. Equipment has an end of life to its run.

do you know if it will be supported after it's no longer being manufactured? Of course, it must be. But, that doesn't mean that the equipment manufacturer themselves know if they will be offering upgrades 5 years down the line.

Do you think that Apple knew, 4 years ago that they would be pulling this unit from production now? I doubt it. The same thing would be true for Sun.

If it's a newish product, perhaps, unless it's a bomb, which does happen, even in enterprise situations.

Once you get much below mainframe operations, the picture becomes cloudy after just a few years.

But, again, I'm saying that companies do plan ahead for a while in a more general sense. They know where they want to go, and have some idea as how to get there.

You should read Computerworld, or Infoworld. These journals are oriented towards the enterprise market. You'd be surprised at how companies "plan".
post #46 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Fine. But, despit that, you still can't make hardware plans for the next six years, other than to make general planning decisions.

There are no hardware companies that can give any definite plans of where they are going the next 6 years, only general directions.

If any computer manufacturer, or storage vendor, told you what products they would have in six years, they should be ignored, because they don't know.

Hundreds of millions were lost in companies that made plans to move to Longhorn years ago, before it became Vista, and lost many features.

That's why companies don't require more than three years of roadmaps from vendors. They know how nebulous it becomes after that.

Sorry, my experience is different. In fact, just last week we had a vendor out (QLogic) which went out more than three years ahead.

Steve
post #47 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Well then, since your company is so different from the norm, why don't you enlighten us, rather than simply making a statement out of the blue?

It's not last different. My last company, the largest Food company in the world, had five-year plans.

Steve
post #48 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

I find his credentials more plausible than anybody posting here including yours.

I work in a "five nines" storage environment that he himself admits he is not a part of.

Steve
post #49 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by demenas View Post

It's not last different. My last company, the largest Food company in the world, had five-year plans.

Steve

Not specific plans. The point I'm making here is that you can't look to a specific piece of equipment, and assume it will be what you can get in five or six years. I've never seen that as being possible.

People begged Hp to continue support and upgrades for their old 9000 line, but Hp declined. EMC had the same requests for their older storage packages, and they also declined.

There are many similar cases. If you depended upon equipment that the vendor stated would be upgraded five or six years from now (as they would claim for a current package), but then discontinued it three or four years down the line, how would that then upset those six year plans you have?
post #50 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Not specific plans. The point I'm making here is that you can't look to a specific piece of equipment, and assume it will be what you can get in five or six years. I've never seen that as being possible.

Who said you could?

That wasn't the point you were making. You denied that companies make plans beyond 3 years, period. No level of detail was mentioned.

Steve
post #51 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by demenas View Post

Who said you could?

That wasn't the point you were making. You denied that companies make plans beyond 3 years, period. No level of detail was mentioned.

Steve

No, I said that companies couldn't make specific equipment plans, just more general plans about the direction they wanted to go in.

You first said that:
Quote:
Businesses need a five year road map of upcoming technology from a company.

Which companies can't do, other than in a general way.

Then you said:
Quote:
We're working on 6 year plans right now.

I again said that you could make general plans as to technology directions, but nothing specific. I'm not being vague, as you are.

If you bought a large server three years ago, do you expect the manufacturer to tell you how they plan to upgrade that in five or six years? That's what you are essentially saying by stating that you want a 6 year technology roadmap from your vendors.

You're saying that QLogic gave you a specific technology plan for the next 5 or 6 years that you are demanding?

No way! They can assure you that current products will be supported out for five or even ten years, but not that they will be able to be upgraded.

As for new products, well, they haven't the faintest idea what products they will have five years from now. Nobody does, except in the most general way, and even that's a guess, because new technology is often delayed. Storage products are changing very quickly right now.

You seem to be backing off from your first statement.
post #52 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by demenas View Post

I work in a "five nines" storage environment that he himself admits he is not a part of.

Steve

Based on published works, i.e., Macworld Reviews (http://www.macworld.com/search.html?...cof=FORID%3A11) and your own profile (http://www.stevedemena.com/) vs Welch's (http://macworldexpo.ning.com/profile/JohnCWelch)

I kind of take the side of a Mac expert than a PC'r. I take exception to many who critique the Mac environment only to find that they don't or never owned a Mac, their current system is an eMac or older that they picked up a school sale years ago, act as experts on $10,000 systems that they will never ever see let alone touch, base their comments on sound bites, lies and innuendos, and obviously just like to create crap.

If I am going to listen to anybody more than myself it is those who readily support and backup their contentions. I guess it is my 40+ years serving in the healthcare, education and science arena for the largest companies/organizations and teaching centres in the world, where I was taught, never be the first to use a product (drug) and never be the last to discard one. (Goodman & Gilman. The Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics). Although, I must admit that I bought my first Mac on day one, January, 1984 and a massive number since-always the first and certainly not the last.

P.S. I have written or have had to read virtually hundreds of business/operational plans/marketing plans covering medicine, computer and education. One year, 3 and 5 year plans and even the odd 10 year. However, not one of them were worth a plug nickel unless they were dynamic, i.e., readably updatable, revised or rewritten at a drop of the hat. Heaven sake, a 6 month plan in this industry would be considered long-term relative to those compiled for the field of medicine or education.
post #53 of 59
I still have no idea what this Xsan thing is used for in the real world. Oh well, carry on.
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post #54 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

I still have no idea what this Xsan thing is used for in the real world. Oh well, carry on.

As most of us.
post #55 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

No, I said that companies couldn't make specific equipment plans, just more general plans about the direction they wanted to go in.

You first said that:


Which companies can't do, other than in a general way.

Then you said:


I again said that you could make general plans as to technology directions, but nothing specific. I'm not being vague, as you are.

If you bought a large server three years ago, do you expect the manufacturer to tell you how they plan to upgrade that in five or six years? That's what you are essentially saying by stating that you want a 6 year technology roadmap from your vendors.

You're saying that QLogic gave you a specific technology plan for the next 5 or 6 years that you are demanding?

No way! They can assure you that current products will be supported out for five or even ten years, but not that they will be able to be upgraded.

As for new products, well, they haven't the faintest idea what products they will have five years from now. Nobody does, except in the most general way, and even that's a guess, because new technology is often delayed. Storage products are changing very quickly right now.

You seem to be backing off from your first statement.

All I said is a five year plan of "upcoming technology". Never said anything about specific models, what level of detail, or anything like that. You just kept attacking me, saying that it wasn't possible and that companies only did that for 3 years.

Go away.

Steve
post #56 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by demenas View Post

All I said is a five year plan of "upcoming technology". Never said anything about specific models, what level of detail, or anything like that. You just kept attacking me, saying that it wasn't possible and that companies only did that for 3 years.

Go away.

Steve

I never attacked you. I don't agree with you.

When Suhail said that he agreed with you, you didn't bother to "correct" his apparently mistaken agreement. He made a very specific statement in his post. As you let it go by without comment, the only assumption to be made from that, was that you also agreed with what he said.

You had every opportunity to correct the impression you had made, but you didn't. The closest you came was the post just before, when you typed "Who said you could?". That was an indicator, but I didn't know what to make of it after reading the sentence afterwards. You could have short circuited this by saying from the beginning that you were talking in general terms, which is what I kept repeating, and perhaps told Suhail that you weren't saying what he thought you were saying (as I, and a few others thought as well) That would have cleared it up.

I'm just going by the combined statements which reinforce each other. It's too bad you can't handle it, this isn't such a big deal, but I'm not going away, so perhaps you should.
post #57 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I never attacked you. I don't agree with you.

There is nothing to agree with. My company, and my previous company, both make five year technology plans.

Either you believe me that we do that, or you don't, and thus are calling me a liar. No one asked you or cares if you think its a smart, stupid, bad, or impossible task.

I don't know what Suhail said, I get emails that tell me when there is a new post and I go and read the new one, I have no idea whether I missed one or two and thus if I didn't "correct" someone's post you are reading too much into it.

I am unsubscribing from this thread.

Steve
post #58 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by demenas View Post

There is nothing to agree with. My company, and my previous company, both make five year technology plans.

Either you believe me that we do that, or you don't, and thus are calling me a liar. No one asked you or cares if you think its a smart, stupid, bad, or impossible task.

I don't know what Suhail said, I get emails that tell me when there is a new post and I go and read the new one, I have no idea whether I missed one or two and thus if I didn't "correct" someone's post you are reading too much into it.

I am unsubscribing from this thread.

Steve

This is a very strange post. You refuse to explain yourself until the very end, yet, you are frustrated that I disagree with you.

If you don't care what others think of your posts, and what you say in them, then why are you posting at all?

If you get the e-mail about new posts, you should read all the posts after that one as well, because, as it says in the post, you won't get more notices unless you go to the post.

I'm sorry you didn't read the other posts, including Suhails, but that's not my fault.

Actually, in the end, we were saying the same thing. You just didn't bother to figure it out.

Ok, so you may not read this. But, it's a good summary of the situation for those who do.
post #59 of 59
and now back to the program.

So who actually uses the Xsan in a professional environment?
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