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Next Apple notebook refresh rumored for June - Page 4

post #121 of 168
i currently have a 2.4GHz C2D Santa Rosa w/ 256MB 8600 GT, 15" LED Glossy MBP.....but if they refresh the macbook air with a 2.0GHz C2D and a 5400 RPM hard drive that has atleast 100GB of space.....I'll be throwing down the green for one. the 4200 RPM HD is whats killing it for me right now.....its holding the system back from performing as well as the macbook.
post #122 of 168
Man, these MBP are beginning to be more powerful than about half of the Towers out their
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post #123 of 168
Don't count on a new form factor for the MBs. Maybe for MBPs as that design has basically been around since the TiBooks of what, '01 or so? I'd expect new units of both to start shipping sometime b/w July (optimistic) and October (conservative and this has been seen in the recent past few years). Regardless, there will always be something newer and SLIGHTLY faster just a few months away from any today you pick. No, it won't be light years ahead, but it'll be a bit better than the last version. So get what works for you today and be as productive and happy as you can...and don't fret about the new stuff down the road. There will ALWAYS be new stuff down the road!
post #124 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzieboy View Post

Don't count on a new form factor for the MBs. Maybe for MBPs as that design has basically been around since the TiBooks of what, '01 or so? I'd expect new units of both to start shipping sometime b/w July (optimistic) and October (conservative and this has been seen in the recent past few years). Regardless, there will always be something newer and SLIGHTLY faster just a few months away from any today you pick. No, it won't be light years ahead, but it'll be a bit better than the last version. So get what works for you today and be as productive and happy as you can...and don't fret about the new stuff down the road. There will ALWAYS be new stuff down the road!

that and the current (newest) MBPs are lightning fast, and since they update every so often, by the time you're ready to get a new one they will have already advanced maybe 3 or 4 times.
post #125 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Like maybe if you owned a blu-ray disc and would like want to watch it when you travel this would like let you?

Quoted for Truth.
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post #126 of 168
How come I never see anyone mention the use or option of a better GPU in the MacBook Pro or higher-end MacBooks? Perhaps I missed it on this string. I did not read through all of the posts.

But look, the best GPU you can get in a MBP, which is supposed to be a photo and video editing powerhouse, is the nVidia 8600 GT. Yes, it has 512MB of VRAM, but it only has 32 stream processors and a 128-bit interface. Minimum price for a MBP is $1,999. However, you can get a Gateway P-6831FX with an nVidia 8800GTS (and 3GB of RAM) for $1,349, and it sold for as little as $1,199 a few weeks back. This GPU also has 512MB of RAM but with 64 stream processors and a 256-bit interface. How come Gateway can manage it cost-wise, but Apple cannot???

And what about SLI in MBP? Windows laptops have them. At least move up to the 8700 GT which has the same number of stream processors and 128-bit interface as the 8600 GT but with faster core, shader, and memory clocks and is DX10 compatible.

If Apple does not start providing better GPU's with their next update, I am going to lose even more respect for them. It has been quite clear for a very long time now, that their are mainly out to maximize their profits, and skimping on GPU's, or RAM, or making batteries or systems non-user accessible/upgradeable are prime examples.

Start providing better products sooner at lower prices, Apple. Then, you will REALLY start seeing some market share increases and Windows switchers.

By the way, I still have not made the switch myself other than buying an iMac for my mom. Main reason is the excessive price of MBP's compared to equivalent Windows laptops.
post #127 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasondwelsh View Post

How come I never see anyone mention the use or option of a better GPU in the MacBook Pro or higher-end MacBooks? Perhaps I missed it on this string. I did not read through all of the posts.

But look, the best GPU you can get in a MBP, which is supposed to be a photo and video editing powerhouse, is the nVidia 8600 GT. Yes, it has 512MB of VRAM, but it only has 32 stream processors and a 128-bit interface. Minimum price for a MBP is $1,999. However, you can get a Gateway P-6831FX with an nVidia 8800GTS (and 3GB of RAM) for $1,349, and it sold for as little as $1,199 a few weeks back. This GPU also has 512MB of RAM but with 64 stream processors and a 256-bit interface. How come Gateway can manage it cost-wise, but Apple cannot???

And what about SLI in MBP? Windows laptops have them. At least move up to the 8700 GT which has the same number of stream processors and 128-bit interface as the 8600 GT but with faster core, shader, and memory clocks and is DX10 compatible.

If Apple does not start providing better GPU's with their next update, I am going to lose even more respect for them. It has been quite clear for a very long time now, that their are mainly out to maximize their profits, and skimping on GPU's, or RAM, or making batteries or systems non-user accessible/upgradeable are prime examples.

Start providing better products sooner at lower prices, Apple. Then, you will REALLY start seeing some market share increases and Windows switchers.

By the way, I still have not made the switch myself other than buying an iMac for my mom. Main reason is the excessive price of MBP's compared to equivalent Windows laptops.

My thoughts exactly! I can't understand why Gateway and Dell are able to do this, while Apple can't. We are talking about Apple here - a super-duper company with a R&D and awesome products, ones that connect with the spirit! How is it that the "engineers" over at Dell or Gateway (those same engineers that have their Masters degrees in Marketing) are able to include hardware that's much much better than Apple uses and still charge almost half as much?

I am running an iBook 12" that's 4 years old right now, and if I don't see a price decrease and some decent graphics options in the Mac notebooks by the end of the summer, I'm gonna have to switch "back". GASP
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post #128 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexluft View Post

My thoughts exactly! I can't understand why Gateway and Dell are able to do this, while Apple can't. We are talking about Apple here - a super-duper company with a R&D and awesome products, ones that connect with the spirit! How is it that the "engineers" over at Dell or Gateway (those same engineers that have their Masters degrees in Marketing) are able to include hardware that's much much better than Apple uses and still charge almost half as much?

I am running an iBook 12" that's 4 years old right now, and if I don't see a price decrease and some decent graphics options in the Mac notebooks by the end of the summer, I'm gonna have to switch "back". GASP

Apple doesn't make the GPUs. Perhaps as Macs become more mainstream we'll see better offerings for Mac GPUs from ATI and NVIDIA.

You probably aren't going to see a price decrease with Intel's roadmap. What you'll see is performance, features and capacity increases. If that doesn't concern you, which it clearly doesn't running a PPC machine then a 1st generation Mac Intel machine will run rings around your iBook.

What machines are you referring to that cost half as much for the same or better hardware? I've read before and asked that same question but it always goes answered.
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post #129 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Apple doesn't make the GPUs. Perhaps as Macs become more mainstream we'll see better offerings for Mac GPUs from ATI and NVIDIA.

You probably aren't going to see a price decrease with Intel's roadmap. What you'll see is performance, features and capacity increases. If that doesn't concern you, which it clearly doesn't running a PPC machine then a 1st generation Mac Intel machine will run rings around your iBook.

What machines are you referring to that cost half as much for the same or better hardware? I've read before and asked that same question but it always goes answered.

I mentioned it in my original post.

Gateway P-6831FX. On sale recently for $1,199. So, let's compare it to a $2,499 MBP which is more than twice as much GW sale proce and just under with Gateway's usual $1,349 price. Unless you move up to the $2,799 model to get the same 17" screen.

Gateway
Intel C2D 1.67GHz T5450 (Edge: Apple)
3GB PC2-5300 DDR2 memory (Edge; Gateway)
DVD±RW/CD-RW drive with double-layer 8.5GB DVD supports Labelflash direct disc labeling. Same as HP's LightScribe technology (Edge: Gateway)
17" WXGA+ LCD WS display with 1440 x 900 resolution (Edge: Gateway)
250GB HDD (Edge: Gateway)
NVIDIA GeForce Go 8800 GTS graphics with up to 512MB discrete GDDR3 video memory; HDMI: high-def audio (Edge: Gateway)

Apple
Intel C2D 2.4GHz next-gen processor
2GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM ($400 extra gets you 4GB???)
DVD±RW/CD-RW drive with double-layer 8.5GB DVD DOES NOT support Labelflash or LightScribe direct disc labeling
15.4" WXGA+ LCD WS display with 1440 x 900 resolution ($300 more buys you the 17")
250GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm
NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT with 512MB of GDDR3 SDRAM
post #130 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasondwelsh View Post

I mentioned it in my original post.

Gateway P-6831FX. On sale recently for $1,199. So, let's compare it to a $2,499 MBP which is more than twice as much GW sale proce and just under with Gateway's usual $1,349 price. Unless you move up to the $2,799 model to get the same 17" screen.

That is your "ace in the hole" comparison? Pitting an antiquated, bargain basement processor that doesn't even support x86 Virtualization (ITV) and is bested in both speed and/or efficiency to the MBA and Mac Mini to a MBP running Intel's newest, top of the line processor?

[CENTER]
OH, COME ON!!![/CENTER]
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post #131 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That is your "ace in the hole" comparison? Pitting an antiquated, bargain basement processor that doesn't even support x86 Virtualization (ITV) and is bested in both speed and/or efficiency to the MBA and Mac Mini to a MBP running Intel's newest, top of the line processor?

[CENTER]
OH, COME ON!!![/CENTER]

I did not claim the processor was better. It's not bargain basement by the way. The 2000 series (i.e. T2330) is. The point is that other vendors provide superior hardware for less. And it all depends on what you want to do. If you want to game, then the Gateway is superior even with the slower processor due to the extra RAM and better GPU. Besides, Gateway does make laptops with comparable and even superior CPU's. See below. The one I mentioned only because of the extreme price difference.

Apple depends on people's undying loyalty to screw them over on price and maximize their own profits. Remember the iPhone price cut soon after it was released? Why do you think they did not include 3G? So they could maximize their profits with a cheaper chipset. Why do they delete customer complaints about their products from their own message boards? There are many, many issues that could be discussed which do not paint Apple as a very consumer-friendly company. Excessively high pricing is just the most obvious.

Fortunately, some (like the original reply to my post) realize this and are considering whether or not sticking with Apple is worth the extra money. If enough people defect from Apple back to Windows or at least voice their concerns, then perhaps Apple will change.

I would really like to buy a MBP, but I cannot bring myself to do it yet. My current Toshiba laptop is over four years old though so the time is coming soon to buy something new. Will Apple have the product that I want at the price I want later this year? I am hopeful, but I really, really doubt it. So, I will likely go Windows again.

The link below shows some other Gateway models with more advanced processors. The P-171X FX Edition provides you with a 2.4GHz T8300 and a 17" 1920x1200 resolution screen. It's $800 cheaper than Apple's top of the line MBP which you need to purchase to get the same resolution screen. You could buy a brand new Airport Extreme Base Station, 160GB Apple TV, and iPod nano with your savings and have money left over (after taxes) after buying the Gateway.

http://www.gateway.com/systems/series/529598006.php
post #132 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasondwelsh View Post

I did not claim the processor was better. It's not bargain basement by the way. The 2000 series (i.e. T2330) is. The point is that other vendors provide superior hardware for less. And it all depends on what you want to do. If you want to game, then the Gateway is superior even with the slower processor due to the extra RAM and better GPU. Besides, Gateway does make laptops with comparable and even superior CPU's. See below. The one I mentioned only because of the extreme price difference.

Apple depends on people's undying loyalty to screw them over on price and maximize their own profits. Remember the iPhone price cut soon after it was released? Why do you think they did not include 3G? So they could maximize their profits with a cheaper chipset. Why do they delete customer complaints about their products from their own message boards? There are many, many issues that could be discussed which do not paint Apple as a very consumer-friendly company. Excessively high pricing is just the most obvious.

Fortunately, some (like the original reply to my post) realize this and are considering whether or not sticking with Apple is worth the extra money. If enough people defect from Apple back to Windows or at least voice their concerns, then perhaps Apple will change.

I would really like to buy a MBP, but I cannot bring myself to do it yet. My current Toshiba laptop is over four years old though so the time is coming soon to buy something new. Will Apple have the product that I want at the price I want later this year? I am hopeful, but I really, really doubt it. So, I will likely go Windows again.

The link below shows some other Gateway models with more advanced processors. The P-171X FX Edition provides you with a 2.4GHz T8300 and a 17" 1920x1200 resolution screen. It's $800 cheaper than Apple's top of the line MBP which you need to purchase to get the same resolution screen. You could buy a brand new Airport Extreme Base Station, 160GB Apple TV, and iPod nano with your savings and have money left over (after taxes) after buying the Gateway.

http://www.gateway.com/systems/series/529598006.php

That is a much closer comparison, but it still falls short for being a highly comparable. The 17" MBP doesn't even come with that processor. It starts with a 2.5GHz T9300 w/ 6MB L2, which is what the base MBP for $1999 has. Gateway would probably only chargeyou $100-150 for that processor if it was an upgrade option so that it quantifiable in Gateway's favour.

When you look at the weight and dimensions you see why the Hateway machine is so much cheaper. A lot less engineering and cost went into its design.
17-inch MacBook Pro
Height: 1.0 inch
Width: 15.4 inches
Depth: 10.4 inches
Weight: 6.8 pounds

17-inch Gateway P-171X FX
Height: 1.70 inches
Width: 15.75 inches
Depth: 11.75 inches
Weight: 9.2 pounds It's irrational to say Apple is charging to much because it's not the same as x-machine, when the build quality, engineering and refinements of them are world's apart. but if you don't care about those things then you can plenty of machine from Gateway for a lower price than Apple. If those dimensions, OS, and experience suit your needs then go for it. Personally, 17 inchesand even 15 inchesis too big for me. I prefer the 13" in 16:9 and 12" in 4:3 ratio displays for my notebooks.
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post #133 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That is a much closer comparison, but it still falls short for being a highly comparable. The 17" MBP doesn't even come with that processor. It starts with a 2.5GHz T9300 w/ 6MB L2, which is what the base MBP for $1999 has. Gateway would probably only chargeyou $100-150 for that processor if it was an upgrade option so that it quantifiable in Gateway's favour.

When you look at the weight and dimensions you see why the Hateway machine is so much cheaper. A lot less engineering and cost went into its design.
17-inch MacBook Pro
Height: 1.0 inch
Width: 15.4 inches
Depth: 10.4 inches
Weight: 6.8 pounds

17-inch Gateway P-171X FX
Height: 1.70 inches
Width: 15.75 inches
Depth: 11.75 inches
Weight: 9.2 pounds It's irrational to say Apple is charging to much because it's not the same as x-machine, when the build quality, engineering and refinements of them are world's apart. but if you don't care about those things then you can plenty of machine from Gateway for a lower price than Apple. If those dimensions, OS, and experience suit your needs then go for it. Personally, 17 inchesand even 15 inchesis too big for me. I prefer the 13" in 16:9 and 12" in 4:3 ratio displays for my notebooks.

You have a good point about the size and weight. However, I do not think that the engineering in that respect should count for $800 extra. Also, the MBP's have had their share of quality issues. They are far from perfect in that respect. And again, the Gateway does have more RAM and a better GPU. The 8800GTS GPU is likely bigger, thus requiring Gateway to design a larger case to accommodate it. Add the optional 2.8GHz Extreme Edition Intel processor, and it's smokin'.

As for size, I agree that 17" screens are quite large, but for someone who works with video, for instance, and requires 1080P resolution, then that is what you need to get. And that 8800GTS GPU will provide better performance than the Apple spec'ed 8600GT. That was my whole point. I just want to see Apple start designing in better GPU's AND reduce prices. Even the two higher-end MacBooks should have at least 128MB of discrete video memory. The high-end MacBook should probably have 256MB. Wouldn't you like better video performance in your 13" form factor??? I think A LOT of people would, and they deserve to get it at a reasonable price.
post #134 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasondwelsh View Post

I mentioned it in my original post.

Gateway P-6831FX. On sale recently for $1,199. So, let's compare it to a $2,499 MBP which is more than twice as much GW sale proce and just under with Gateway's usual $1,349 price. Unless you move up to the $2,799 model to get the same 17" screen.

Gateway
Intel C2D 1.67GHz T5450 (Edge: Apple)
3GB PC2-5300 DDR2 memory (Edge; Gateway)
DVD±RW/CD-RW drive with double-layer 8.5GB DVD supports Labelflash direct disc labeling. Same as HP's LightScribe technology (Edge: Gateway)
17" WXGA+ LCD WS display with 1440 x 900 resolution (Edge: Gateway)
250GB HDD (Edge: Gateway)
NVIDIA GeForce Go 8800 GTS graphics with up to 512MB discrete GDDR3 video memory; HDMI: high-def audio (Edge: Gateway)

Apple
Intel C2D 2.4GHz next-gen processor
2GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM ($400 extra gets you 4GB???)
DVD±RW/CD-RW drive with double-layer 8.5GB DVD DOES NOT support Labelflash or LightScribe direct disc labeling
15.4" WXGA+ LCD WS display with 1440 x 900 resolution ($300 more buys you the 17")
250GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm
NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT with 512MB of GDDR3 SDRAM

Why do you give the nod to gateway for the HDD when they're the same?
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post #135 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancho View Post

Why do you give the nod to gateway for the HDD when they're the same?

Happy fingers. Should have been "Even".
post #136 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasondwelsh View Post

Happy fingers. Should have been "Even".

Ah, completely understandable then
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post #137 of 168
lightscribe= sucks, i bought a drive because it had lightscribe, they are faint depend on the quality of your photo, the disks cost more and i just used memorex labeling software. and takes forever to burn....big waste
lightscribe +gateway= edge apple
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post #138 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasondwelsh View Post

I just want to see Apple start designing in better GPU's AND reduce prices. Even the two higher-end MacBooks should have at least 128MB of discrete video memory. The high-end MacBook should probably have 256MB. Wouldn't you like better video performance in your 13" form factor??? I think A LOT of people would, and they deserve to get it at a reasonable price.

I could be wrong, but doesn't Apple have very little say over the GPU? I recall that one of the major GPU manufactures would use a slower processor and/or less RAM for the mac version and tehn sell it at the same price as the Win version, though i can't recall which was which.

As for the MB, I much prefer the integrated graphics as it keeps down costs, heat, size and doesn't tax the battery as much. But I see your point as the $1,999 model is the cheapest for a discrete GPU notebook.
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post #139 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Apple doesn't make the GPUs. Perhaps as Macs become more mainstream we'll see better offerings for Mac GPUs from ATI and NVIDIA.

You probably aren't going to see a price decrease with Intel's roadmap. What you'll see is performance, features and capacity increases. If that doesn't concern you, which it clearly doesn't running a PPC machine then a 1st generation Mac Intel machine will run rings around your iBook.

What machines are you referring to that cost half as much for the same or better hardware? I've read before and asked that same question but it always goes answered.

1. It's not my problem that the Mac isn't "mainstream". It's Apple's. Thus, I don't care - as a consumer (maybe I do as a tech enthusiast) - about what the Mac is not. I want the Mac to be and do what I want it to do. Apple has had record profits for the last few years, in part fueled by increasing Mac sales. If the Mac is not "mainstream" at ~6% marketshare, up 3% over the last 3 years, then I don't know what mainstream is.

What do I want the Mac to do? Well, for starters, I want a dedicated GPU in something that's less than $2000. Poor Dell offers the same GPU as is on the $2000 MBP in a $700 package in the Inspiron 1530 or 1550 or something like that. Granted, it's not as refined or beautiful as the MBP. What do I need this GPU for? 1. Games. 2. Video proc. And this is the whole never-ending-game of Apple vs. Microsoft/PC: Apple needs to go mainstream yet their least expensive 15" notebook - the one that's most popular among PC buyers - is $2000 - an average of $1000 more than a 15" PC notebook. Consumers (read: non-Pros) don't need the featureset of the MBP. They need a MacBook in a 15" form factor. Thus, Apple is preventing itself from going mainstream by having huge gaps in their product line-up.

2. The only reason I'm running a PPC Mac right now is because Apple's current notebook offerings don't offer what I need. I need a 13" with a dedicated GPU. (Say that again!). Apple is nowhere to be found. I was hoping that the recent update would address that. nope. Dell, on the other hand, gives me just what I want with the Inspiron XPS M1330 for about $150-200 less.

3. I find it amazing that after using Macs for 4 years and reading Apple boards, I am still given a recommendation to buy a used Mac because Apple isn't price competitive to my needs . To make it clear: Apple has nothing in their line-up that will suit me right now. The MBP is too big, yet has a dedicated GPU, and the MB is perfect size but has no dedicated GPU. The MBP is about $400 too expensive for what it should be - look at the Dell XPS M1550 (or 30?). It gives me everything the MBP does and comes very close in design and the general aesthetics department.

4. I know that Apple doesn't make GPUs.

P.S: I feel trapped by Apple right now b/c of their limited line-up. I want to play games on my hardware but I can't (obviously) with the iBook and I won't be able to - enjoyably - with the MacBook. I could with the MBP but it is too much - competitively to it's PC competition. Thus,
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post #140 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexluft View Post

1. It's not my problem that the Mac isn't "mainstream". It's Apple's. Thus, I don't care - as a consumer (maybe I do as a tech enthusiast) - about what the Mac is not. I want the Mac to be and do what I want it to do. Apple has had record profits for the last few years, in part fueled by increasing Mac sales. If the Mac is not "mainstream" at ~6% marketshare, up 3% over the last 3 years, then I don't know what mainstream is.
...

I really hope I don't come across as a dick as a dick but I felt your post wasn't inflammatory or mindless yammering, but this is your problem. Apple is growing at record speeds and the MacBook is theor top seller and more than likely the fastest selling $1000 machine out there, so they are doing fine with Intel's integrated graphics. I am doing fine with Intel's intergrated graphics. Intel's next integrated graphic will have H.264 (among others) codec decoding built in. I'm not a gamer, so it doesn't affect me, but then again I don't know of any serious PC gamer who uses a Mac for gaming.
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post #141 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I really hope I don't come across as a dick as a dick but I felt your post wasn't inflammatory or mindless yammering, but this is your problem. Apple is growing at record speeds and the MacBook is theor top seller and more than likely the fastest selling $1000 machine out there, so they are doing fine with Intel's integrated graphics. I am doing fine with Intel's intergrated graphics. Intel's next integrated graphic will have H.264 (among others) codec decoding built in. I'm not a gamer, so it doesn't affect me, but then again I don't know of any serious PC gamer who uses a Mac for gaming.


Well here's the thing: it's my problem (as a consumer) to have a need for something that doesn't exist. Yet it's a totally different problem - one of Apple - to not have something to fit my needs when their competition does. This is especially the case when the competition offers a superior product (spec-by-spec) at a better price. Case and point:

Dell XPS specs (Dell's site)

You can look at HP and Toshiba and Gateway for similar machine - the biggest "distinguishing" feature being the availability of a dedicated GPU in a 13" notebook package. How it is that Apple doesn't offer this when their competition does - and how it can come across as my problem - is beyond me.

P.S: don't want to come across as a dick either, just as a well-educated consumer.
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post #142 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexluft View Post

Well here's the thing: it's my problem (as a consumer) to have a need for something that doesn't exist. Yet it's a totally different problem - one of Apple - to not have something to fit my needs when their competition does. This is especially the case when the competition offers a superior product (spec-by-spec) at a better price. Case and point:

Dell XPS specs (Dell's site)

You can look at HP and Toshiba and Gateway for similar machine - the biggest "distinguishing" feature being the availability of a dedicated GPU in a 13" notebook package. How it is that Apple doesn't offer this when their competition does - and how it can come across as my problem - is beyond me.

P.S: don't want to come across as a dick either, just as a well-educated consumer.

So... If you want a Dell, buy a Dell.

(That was easy)
Progress is a comfortable disease
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post #143 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexluft View Post

Well here's the thing: it's my problem (as a consumer) to have a need for something that doesn't exist. Yet it's a totally different problem - one of Apple - to not have something to fit my needs when their competition does. This is especially the case when the competition offers a superior product (spec-by-spec) at a better price. Case and point:

Dell XPS specs (Dell's site)

You can look at HP and Toshiba and Gateway for similar machine - the biggest "distinguishing" feature being the availability of a dedicated GPU in a 13" notebook package. How it is that Apple doesn't offer this when their competition does - and how it can come across as my problem - is beyond me.

P.S: don't want to come across as a dick either, just as a well-educated consumer.

Please 'spec' one out then. I opened the link and saw a Dell with a 1.66 ghz C2D cpu and integrated graphics for $999. That doesn't look better to me.

Most people don't need dedicated graphics. The best bang for the buck is to get the best cpu possible. This is what Apple does. The MBs have cpus that many manufacturers use in their pro machines.

The GPUs for the pro machines are limited and could be better. Minderbinder has suggested that as Windows moves to EFI this will get better. Let's hope so.
post #144 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post

So... If you want a Dell, buy a Dell.

(That was easy)

Well aren't you helpful? Do you think I would be posting in these forums, speculating, voicing my concerns, and in general spending my time this way if I "want a Dell?"

Just to make it clear for you, in the case you don't completely understand: I don't want a Dell but they are making something - hardware-wise - that is just what I'm looking for. Apple might want to address this as it is a big gap in their line-up. Sure, Apple can't serve "every" niche, but a 13" Pro-level notebook isn't a "niche" market.

In general, I want out of Apple what I've come to expect from them: excellent products with great value that work and fit my needs. Stop making excuses for them just because you think they're "perfect". They are missing a key area of the Pro market by not offering a GPU in their 13" notebook. Period.
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post #145 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Please 'spec' one out then. I opened the link and saw a Dell with a 1.66 ghz C2D cpu and integrated graphics for $999. That doesn't look better to me.

Most people don't need dedicated graphics. The best bang for the buck is to get the best cpu possible. This is what Apple does. The MBs have cpus that many manufacturers use in their pro machines.

The GPUs for the pro machines are limited and could be better. Minderbinder has suggested that as Windows moves to EFI this will get better. Let's hope so.

I did spec it out and it came out to $1409 - and that's not even using the $100 coupon floating around on the web.

If you opened the link you would see that you can configure it to exactly the same specs as the mid-tier MacBook (2.4GHZ, 160GB, 2GB RAM, SuperDrive, Bluetooth, 802.11 N, Camera + fingerprint reader) and add an Nvidia 8400GS and it comes out to $1409

So again, why can't Apple offer a dedicated GPU option in the MacBooks for $100. I would gladly pay $150 for it in the MacBook as well, just as a premium for OS X.

Most people don't need dedicated graphics, true. However, it isn't that difficult to offer it as an option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

The best bang for the buck is to get the best cpu possible. This is what Apple does. The MBs have cpus that many manufacturers use in their pro machines.

In what I'm looking to do, the GPU is more important than a difference in .2 GHZ. If you want to talk about L2 cache, then yes, it's important. But the trade-off should not be made between a GPU or a CPU, they should both be available.
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post #146 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexluft View Post

You can look at HP and Toshiba and Gateway for similar machine - the biggest "distinguishing" feature being the availability of a dedicated GPU in a 13" notebook package. How it is that Apple doesn't offer this when their competition does - and how it can come across as my problem - is beyond me.

P.S: don't want to come across as a dick either, just as a well-educated consumer.

No, you're not coming across as a dick. I see your desire. You want a 13" Mac with a dedicated GPU. The 12" PB had a discrete graphics card, though I think it maxed at 32MB where as the MBs now have 144MB, which isn't saying much.

Apple is apparently happy not offering such an option in even their Black MacBook. That is the machine I often use and I would not have bought if it had a "real" GPU. I just don't need it; I much prefer the additional battery life.

You've fallen through the cracks as an Apple customer. Apple doesn't seem to care about hardcore gamers or selling the MacBook as a graphic's powerhouse in any regard so you have to make the comprise: Go with a MBP, deal with the MB, or go to another OEM. That is why it's your problem.
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post #147 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexluft View Post

I did spec it out and it came out to $1409 - and that's not even using the $100 coupon floating around on the web.

If you opened the link you would see that you can configure it to exactly the same specs as the mid-tier MacBook (2.4GHZ, 160GB, 2GB RAM, SuperDrive, Bluetooth, 802.11 N, Camera + fingerprint reader) and add an Nvidia 8400GS and it comes out to $1409

So again, why can't Apple offer a dedicated GPU option in the MacBooks for $100. I would gladly pay $150 for it in the MacBook as well, just as a premium for OS X.

Most people don't need dedicated graphics, true. However, it isn't that difficult to offer it as an option.

That is a good comparison. Apple doesn't even sell the default processor that comes in the Dell for hundred dollars more. And that if after the $500 "instant" savings. haha I hate that kind of marketing. I hat e those convoluted build pages.

I think you are assuming that everything is equal if the main internals are equal, but they aren't. The MacBook is 1.1" tall. How thick is the Dell. the more components you put in there, the more space you need. The more power uses, the more heat it will put out so you need more room to vent. Perhaps Apple wasn't savvy enough to include that option. With chips getting smaller and cooler perhaps that will be an option in the future, but I doubt it as they probably want you to graduate to a MBP instead. Though i do wish there was a smaller MBP for just that reason; 15" is too big for my needs.
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post #148 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexluft View Post

I did spec it out and it came out to $1409 - and that's not even using the $100 coupon floating around on the web.

If you opened the link you would see that you can configure it to exactly the same specs as the mid-tier MacBook (2.4GHZ, 160GB, 2GB RAM, SuperDrive, Bluetooth, 802.11 N, Camera + fingerprint reader) and add an Nvidia 8400GS and it comes out to $1409

So again, why can't Apple offer a dedicated GPU option in the MacBooks for $100. I would gladly pay $150 for it in the MacBook as well, just as a premium for OS X.

Most people don't need dedicated graphics, true. However, it isn't that difficult to offer it as an option.



In what I'm looking to do, the GPU is more important than a difference in .2 GHZ. If you want to talk about L2 cache, then yes, it's important. But the trade-off should not be made between a GPU or a CPU, they should both be available.

I configured exact systems and the MB was cheaper, $1299 vs. $1379. Don't forget that the MB uses an LED screen.

The only advantage for Dell is that you have the option of dedicated graphics. And you can pick colors. Feature for feature they are comparable with a slight price advantage for Apple. And that's not including the iLife bundle that come free with the MB and equivalent software must be purchased for the Dell.
post #149 of 168
I have a three-year-old Al PB G4 that is on its way out. I'm hoping that it will limp along until the next revision, because...

While I find the current form factor timeless and quite acceptable, it's lacking in two ways I personally find very major.

First, the mechanical latch was rendered obsolete by the less expensive MacBook two years ago. Since Apple seems to be making minor changes to the MacBook Pro's case for each revision, I am surprised that they were not able to accommodate the magnetic latch. Judging by the MacBook, the magnets must be very small, and easily placed in a notebook even as thin as the MacBook Pro. I would even say I am bewildered that Apple has let the MacBook Pro's mechanical latch sit next to the MacBook's magnetic latch for this long. It's backwards.

Second, it is too difficult to replace the hard drive in the MacBook Pro. This was also outdated by the MacBook. I can see why modifying the existing case to make the hard drive more accessible would be difficult, and think it's fine that Apple hasn't tried to do it. However, as someone who nearly destroyed his PB while trying to replace his hard drive, this is very important to me.

I suppose, then, that I won't settle for anything less than a redesign. The new Apple job posting for a laptop developer suggests that a redesign is far off. I can't imagine it in June, and even September or October seems a bit early. But that's based on my ignorant assumption about how quickly Apple can develop a new computer.

In any case, ever since the Intel transition, I've found it difficult to keep up with all of the chip names, speeds, and thus, updates. I just want a MacBook Pro that has the same basic new features as the MacBook's case. How long do you think I might have to wait?
post #150 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That is a good comparison. Apple doesn't even sell the default processor that comes in the Dell for hundred dollars more. And that if after the $500 "instant" savings. haha I hate that kind of marketing. I hat e those convoluted build pages.

I think you are assuming that everything is equal if the main internals are equal, but they aren't. The MacBook is 1.1" tall. How thick is the Dell. the more components you put in there, the more space you need. The more power uses, the more heat it will put out so you need more room to vent. Perhaps Apple wasn't savvy enough to include that option. With chips getting smaller and cooler perhaps that will be an option in the future, but I doubt it as they probably want you to graduate to a MBP instead. Though i do wish there was a smaller MBP for just that reason; 15" is too big for my needs.

Sorry but I don't really get your first paragraph. I'm on the build page and don't see the $500 instant savings. What do you mean about the default proc?

The Dell's "tallness" or thickness is:
.90-1.29"

If Dell can do in such a sleek package AND stuff in:
-ExpressCard slot
-Memory card slot
-HDMI + VGA (both of them!)

then Apple can do it too, given they've got Jonathan Ive and the engineering geniuses.

PS: I don't see why Apple doesn't have memory card slots in Macs. The whole point of the iPhone is that we don't have to carry around a stylus. A stylus = more things to get lost that we depend on, one more thing to carry. Well a memory card reader or a digital camera dock is just another thing I need to carry as well. So why no memory card slots?

Yea, the 15" MBP is way to big for me as well. I hope that next rev Apple will just join the MB and the MBP line-ups and offer them both with the same specs just in different screen sizes. (This also means offering a 15" MBP for about $1000 less than the current model without some high-end features like a dedicated GPU). But maybe that's hoping for way too much.
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post #151 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I configured exact systems and the MB was cheaper, $1299 vs. $1379. Don't forget that the MB uses an LED screen.

The only advantage for Dell is that you have the option of dedicated graphics. And you can pick colors. Feature for feature they are comparable with a slight price advantage for Apple. And that's not including the iLife bundle that come free with the MB and equivalent software must be purchased for the Dell.


1. The MacBook does not use an LED screen, it uses LCD.

2. I don't know what you configured but if you read a few posts up, the Dell came out to be $100 more WITH a GPU. It also has HDMI + VGA, and ExpressCard slot, and a memory card slot.

3. The Dell comes - included in the price - with Adobe's thing for consumers... Elements or something like that.
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post #152 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexluft View Post

Sorry but I don't really get your first paragraph. I'm on the build page and don't see the $500 instant savings. What do you mean about the default proc?

Every model at the Dell link has a Starting price and Intant savings.
If you choose the model to the right you will see that it starts with a Intel® Core 2 Duo T7250 (2MB Cache/2.0GHz/800Mhz FSB). Even the cheapest MB with a COmbo Drive doesn't use that processor. Even the previous revision of MBs didn't use that chip.

Quote:
The Dell's "tallness" or thickness is:
.90-1.29"

If Dell can do in such a sleek package AND stuff in:
-ExpressCard slot
-Memory card slot
-HDMI + VGA (both of them!)

then Apple can do it too, given they've got Jonathan Ive and the engineering geniuses.

That is more volume and a less compact machine. But this all sounds like you think Apple is capable of anything but that they are somehow doing this to you on purpose. The idea of VGA on a Mac escapes me, just as a serial port, parallel port and modem are pointless additions, but you can still find them.[/quote]

It sound like Apple doesn't suit your needs at all. They can't please everyone all the time. They have DVI, though I think they will be changing this to DisplayPort with the next revision.

Apple, just like any other OEM, ha sot make sacrifices and compromises. If you want a certain type of machine then you have to forego certain items. It sounds like Dell is a perfect fit for you HW wise. SWIM says that OSx86 works surprisingly well on many Dell machines.

Quote:
PS: I don't see why Apple doesn't have memory card slots in Macs. The whole point of the iPhone is that we don't have to carry around a stylus. A stylus = more things to get lost that we depend on, one more thing to carry. Well a memory card reader or a digital camera dock is just another thing I need to carry as well. So why no memory card slots?

I have never used a memory card slot and never want to. If you want a 1000-in-1 reader then get a Sony. I much prefer to just tether my camera to my mac via a simple USB cable for the 2 minutes it takes to copy my images and video to iPhoto.

Quote:
Yea, the 15" MBP is way to big for me as well. I hope that next rev Apple will just join the MB and the MBP line-ups and offer them both with the same specs just in different screen sizes. (This also means offering a 15" MBP for about $1000 less than the current model without some high-end features like a dedicated GPU). But maybe that's hoping for way too much.

You want a 15" MBP with EC/34 alot and LED backlight screen, backlit keyboard, Aluminum construction (but now without the GPU you've been wanting in the MB) for less than the current cheapest base-model MB? Does that really make any sense? That isn't Apple as it "complexifies" the product line and makes it difficult for the customer. You really aren't their target market if you want Apple to be like Dell.
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post #153 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexluft View Post

1. The MacBook does not use an LED screen, it uses LCD.

2. I don't know what you configured but if you read a few posts up, the Dell came out to be $100 more WITH a GPU. It also has HDMI + VGA, and ExpressCard slot, and a memory card slot.

3. The Dell comes - included in the price - with Adobe's thing for consumers... Elements or something like that.

You're rigth about the screen. My bad.
post #154 of 168
Started lurking here when the IPhone appeared. Bought one based on great feedback on AI. Thank you, everyone. Couldn't believe how excellent the user experience was, so having been a PC user since 1988, I am now a Mac convert.

Was about to buy my first Mac, a MacBook Pro, then I saw this thread so it made me hesitate.

So Apple is going to update the MacBook Pro line again soon? That seems to be a given. And it looks like it'll have the latest Penryn speed bumped processor with Centrino 2. This should be quite a step-up from what we have already. But here's the million dollar question...

...will there be an enclosure redesign or not?

...will it simply get a revised keyboard?

...will nothing be changed excedpt the guts of the thing?

Does anyone have any real idea, or can anyone provide a bit of well-reasoned speculation.
post #155 of 168
Hi.
Normally a Vaio person, but...
Now I want Apple because Sony is beginning to charge 2000 for a POS, and I'd rather the MBP over a Vaio for obvious reasons.

As I understand from reading all of your smart-edumucated posts, the NEW case design is coming out in Oct/November of this year.

When does Apple normally upgrade their first generation designs? Didn't it happen like six months after the first case design of the current MBP?

My concern is that I want a computer now, but I want to make sure I can have my MBP for at least a year or two before I have to buy the new MBP to not be one of those "last generation" computer users. Yeah, I'm superficial, f-u.

I just spent way too much time reading this forum, and this thread seems like it has the people to answer my questions. Do your work, people. I have a full day of law school tomorrow and don't have the time!
post #156 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikeddemus View Post

Hi.
Normally a Vaio person, but...
Now I want Apple because Sony is beginning to charge 2000 for a POS, and I'd rather the MBP over a Vaio for obvious reasons.

As I understand from reading all of your smart-edumucated posts, the NEW case design is coming out in Oct/November of this year.

When does Apple normally upgrade their first generation designs? Didn't it happen like six months after the first case design of the current MBP?

My concern is that I want a computer now, but I want to make sure I can have my MBP for at least a year or two before I have to buy the new MBP to not be one of those "last generation" computer users. Yeah, I'm superficial, f-u.

I just spent way too much time reading this forum, and this thread seems like it has the people to answer my questions. Do your work, people. I have a full day of law school tomorrow and don't have the time!

I've said before, this is the last you'll see of the current MBP body type, and the best the MBP will be for some time. The case redesign is going to require new hardware and with new hardware comes new bugs.

I just bought a new Penryn Macbook Pro, 2.5 GHZ, 200GB 7200rpm and it's going to be sweet. If you need it, buy a Macbook Pro now. In a year and a half, they will be on the first update of the new body type. At that point you should consider if you need a new one. If you care about having the latest greatest body design, wait 6-8 months and see what comes out. But at this point it's only speculation to what will happen and when it will happen. Hell, Tailpipe had people - even me - convinced a redesign was coming Feb 26.

Keeping up with technology is impossible unless you have millions of dollars to waste on the newest piece of crap. If you spend $3000 now on a Macbook Pro that makes you happy, it will continue to make to make you happy. But if you wait and wait and wait, you'll never buy anything and subsequently never be happy.
post #157 of 168
Ordering the macbook pro THIS VERY SECOND!


Going to get the Base one for 1799 (COLLEGE DISCOUNT OH YEAH) with the 7200 HD and the glossy screen.

Thank you very much.
post #158 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

[CENTER]
OH, COME ON!!![/CENTER]

Where once there was a yacht
NOW THERE IS NOT.
post #159 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by gloss View Post

Where once there was a yacht
NOW THERE IS NOT.

Thank you. I was thinking no one here was going to get the Arrested Development reference, even with the photo.
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post #160 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Thank you. I was thinking no one here was going to get the Arrested Development reference, even with the photo.

Best sitcom of all time, natch.

There are some lines that can't be properly quoted without the GOB Inflection. Like:

[with realization] "Michael..." [suddenly growling] "...Michael."
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