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Perpetual Motion

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 
I thought i'd better start the thread with a silly idea - as im known for it! (NO im not claiming to have invented the impossible!) I've been a bit busy lately after telling the boss to go shove it, and having to find a new employer a bit quick. Ive looked in often, but I think this year I might give it a miss, as theres only so much of Mc HillaryObamaCain I can stand, but its good to see the resident AI axis of evil have totally lost the plot as republican doom awaits. I grin when I think how much they will froth at the mouth when they see this non-fossil fuel device!

I apologize in advance for the size of this image, but I had an idea whilst in the bath, so to speak for 'saving the world™' as it were, Eureka! - and have been working on this over the weekend. I think its pretty self explanitary as marked up, obviously this is just a pictorial schematic and doesn't represent what a working model would look like,(for instance I know the radiator and the cool side of the stirling engine should be seperated) but I present it here for public consumption, and gleely await hardeeharhar's rampant demolishing of the principle. . And no, I cant do the calculations!

The point of this device is how to store solar energy during the day without using a battery so that power can still be generated during night time. I have converted the solar energy into potential energy - raising water as steam (rises naturally so needs no pump) into a reservoir so that the potential energy can be released during the night. Nothing here is particulary complicated at all, which means that practically anyone could build one and it will be dirt cheap relatively speaking. Will be great for third world countries, abundant sun-shine and simplicity of manufacture. Because of the immense weight of water - a square metre of it weighs one ton - you can really step up the gearing on this - so the generator will fly for very little movement of the ballast. A bit like Hassan pedalling his bike with a 72 tooth chainring on to a 9. It isn't supposed to be a quick cycle on this thing - I envisage the total downstroke of the ballast should be about 6 hours! so it only cycles twice a day. I've drawn it with a 1 metre cubed ballast, but there is no reason why the ballast couldn't be a mile long if scaled up! running hundreds of generators and quarter of a mile in the sky - All you need to do is scale up the rest of the components and the steam generator.

I know there is nothing new here, its just the combination of already existing devices arranged in a certain manner. Have fun!

post #2 of 37
I can't make out the details -- could you enlarge that a bit?

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and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #3 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

I can't make out the details -- could you enlarge that a bit?

thats what happens when you watch too much pr0n!
post #4 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post

thats what happens when you watch too much pr0n!

Damn visceral reactions!




In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #5 of 37
Why on earth call the thread "perpetual motion "? You just killed "your invention" right off the starting line.

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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #6 of 37
it uses sunlight, which would be unuabele after 4.5 billion years. Not a PMM, sorry.
post #7 of 37
Anything that use mechanical motion is an obvious loser in this day and age.
post #8 of 37
It appears to be theoretically feasible... the amount of energy produced will be negligible (as compared to standard solar-oil techniques) particularly since you are wasting a lot on running fans, logic circuits to control valves, imperfect valves, etc.

It certainly isn't perpetual motion...
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post #9 of 37
Severe canard/tangent on the "steam" option:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...h/4245896.html

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #10 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by mydo View Post

Anything that use mechanical motion is an obvious loser in this day and age.

You mean like cars, planes, generators, and elevators?

With that said, you need to build it first. Secondly, the opening paragraph is a bit harsh: if anything, the conservatives want alternatives to oil so that we can just let the middle east go back to a state of nomadic survivalism.
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post #11 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

You mean like cars, planes, generators, and elevators?

With that said, you need to build it first. Secondly, the opening paragraph is a bit harsh: if anything, the conservatives want alternatives to oil so that we can just let the middle east go back to a state of nomadic survivalism.

Um yea. Planes and car contribute to greenhouse gases. Elevators are are elevatros why did you even bring them up At least they are electric.

None of those things generate or store power. Stay on topic.
post #12 of 37
MarkUK, you mean renewable energy, etc. Perpetual motion might be something that can happen if we are extracting energy from another dimension, etc, etc.?

In the case of "zero-point energy" or "intertia drives" ala Arthur C Clarke's 3001... this is the next level of Physix, etc.

But I would encourage you to continue working on your renewable energy ideas. Basically, everywhere you look, anyone fifty or a few hundred years from the future would look at the way we use power and be shocked at the level of wastage (inefficiency).

Have you seen that episode in Futurama where they have to "make" garbage? Society had evolved where *everything* is instantly recycled. It was more troublesome to "make" garbage than to clean it.
post #13 of 37
Please continue to develop this idea. Think about developing countries where this might help.

We really need something whereby air-conditioning waste heat is channeled back into boiling water, cooking, etc. Also that air-conditioning, water-filtering energy should come from solar. Water should come from rainwater as much as possible, and "grey" water needs to be recycled as much as possible, preferably through organic "microbial nano filter bed" thingys.
post #14 of 37
I like your idea of "scaling up" to miles wide and long... However the expertise now and in the future ready to do this easily, we are actually.

Well, here's the case. By 2050, we will have accessed the NEXT LEVEL of physics. Quantum, subatomic, multidimensional, etc. etc.

Cheap, virtually unlimited power for everyone. Space travel as long and as far as we want, given time constraints of propulsion devices and their evolution.

We will also have the power to very easily annihilate this whole world.
post #15 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

....so that we can just let the middle east go back to a state of nomadic survivalism.

Civilisations rise and fall. The Middle East was pretty far ahead of the pack several hundred years ago.
post #16 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

It appears to be theoretically feasible... the amount of energy produced will be negligible (as compared to standard solar-oil techniques) particularly since you are wasting a lot on running fans, logic circuits to control valves, imperfect valves, etc.

It certainly isn't perpetual motion...

Really, i do know it isn't perpetual motion. I was having a laugh!

actually im not wasting anything! If you dont know what a stirling engine is, look here. The design calls for the steam to be converted back into water so it can flow back into the battery tank. Normally you would use a heat exchanger with pumps, radiators and fans to cool the steam and release the heat into the atmosphere.

Why waste that heat?

In my design the steam flows through the stirling engine, the heat energy is captured to power the piston of the stirling engine - not only does this help cool the steam, it provides power - mechanically from the flywheel is directly connected to a fan which blows over a radiator to fully convert the steam back to water. It is possible that if you make the stirling engine big enough, you can do away with the need for a radiator an fan completely, and use the stirling engine to generate power as electricity for any contol systems I might need.

Thats the cool thing. Not only have I created steam from solar energy, because of the fluke of nature that steam rises naturally, it not only creates potential energy, but in order for it to become usable potential energy, you have to remove and harness energy from it! This is clearly buy one get one free!

As it is with dropping the weight. Gravity does the work, nothing else. Gravity is free energy if you can harness it. You're then removing the energy from the potential energy to generate power for free!

But you're not removing the heat energy from the water - just using its mass - so when the water reaches the reservoir its still very hot - you need to add relatively little energy to it with the solar mirrors to make it zip right back up to the top. This freak of nature anti-gravity behavior is free energy creation as well!

The valves are purely mechanical and operate when the ballast exerts force on them when moving.

I dont know about you, but if anyone can find a better way to utilize all the sources of free energy (solar, gravity, antigravity, stirling engine) available to man in one device, i'll eat my blueprints!
post #17 of 37
Thread Starter 
Holy Crap! I've just had another idea that makes this one look complicated and lame!
post #18 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

I like your idea of "scaling up" to miles wide and long... However the expertise now and in the future ready to do this easily, we are actually.

Well, here's the case. By 2050, we will have accessed the NEXT LEVEL of physics. Quantum, subatomic, multidimensional, etc. etc.

Cheap, virtually unlimited power for everyone. Space travel as long and as far as we want, given time constraints of propulsion devices and their evolution.

We will also have the power to very easily annihilate this whole world.

hopefully we will have the next level of physics, I hope that the ITER experiment is successful, but sadly, while we can (barely) afford it, most people cannot, and they need a clean efficient renewable system that plays to their advantages, solar and gravity could be their blessing.
post #19 of 37
This is better for the poor. Something that they can afford and use. A better burning stove.

http://www.news.com/2300-11746_3-6217626-1.html?tag=ss



Quote:
Engineer Don O'Neal of Helps International invented this stove for families in Guatemala. A chamber in the stove is lined with ceramic bricks that can raise the temperature of the combustion chamber to 1,400 degrees Fahrenheit. At this temperature, the wood burns, and the oil from the wood vaporizes, too. As a result, the amount of firewood needed for a family is cut down 70 percent, says O'Neal.

That's hugely important in a country trying to deal with a growing population and deforestation. It alleviates poverty somewhat, as well--families have to spend about $28 a month on firewood, he says, and often have to transport it on their backs. A lot of people also get respiratory diseases or die from carbon monoxide poisoning, he added. Kids also frequently get burned on open fires.

The stove costs $120. "It pays for itself in six months," he said. Approximately 42,000 of the stoves have been installed in the country and nearby regions. The factory is in the coastal town of Rio Bravo because the cement, a part of the stove, cures better in that climate.
post #20 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mydo View Post

This is better for the poor. Something that they can afford and use. A better burning stove.

http://www.news.com/2300-11746_3-6217626-1.html?tag=ss

That is a great invention,

what I dont understand with inventors of things like this though, is why they stop where they do. Look at that chimney, I bet a really usable amount of energy goes up there to waste as heat. I'd stick a stirling engine on it! - but if you wanted something cheap and cheerful, why not have a metal barrel surrounding it with a tap and fill it with a few gallons of water - instant water heater from a waste product.

On topic, during the interlude I have designed the one mechanism I thought would have to be electric powered (what I called control logic) to be totally mechanical and operate under the weight of the falling ballast (when its at its rest point so really efficient)- its really neat stay tuned!
post #21 of 37
Why not just run an enclosed water wheel?


Many less gears, no valves and no need for a switching mechanism...
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post #22 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Why not just run an enclosed water wheel?


Many less gears, no valves and no need for a switching mechanism...

sigh! yes i know, my first design was for that - but......um....I thought that would be too boring and not much of an engineering challenge

then I progressed to a pendulum.....one in which the arm carrying the ballast extended under gravity to provide mechanical advantage over the weightless one - which contracted to the fulcrum - so offered little resistance to being lifted.

Then I thought of this, the great advantage of this is that it can be very compact, and can be built tall with little footprint. Rotary things take up a lot of space and footprint. With this, you can make the ballast any shape, it could be a quarter meter wide and deep by 5 metres tall. Incidently for real, im designing them as back to back semi circular to make a complete circle falling down a central core. Once you have a completed module, say it was 5 metres square (or diameter - more surface area for the collectors) , you simply line them up in a straight line - as many as you want. These things need to be aligned in straight lines to point in the direction of the sun as it travells across the sky to maximise efficiency.

This is just a schematic of how it works, my envisiged design doesn't look much like what i've shown at the top, Its more of a cylindrical tower, where the sides are solar collectors which transfer heat via a heat pipes* to the water in the reservoir to heat it and the parabolic mirror is actually at the top of the tower like a satellite dish and beams focussed light via mirrors through the core to the base to create the steam.

Its just a bit of fun, and I wanted it to be an engineering challenge at the same time. Just to be really geeky im trying to find a way of incorperating a 'magnetic wankel' engine somewhere in it. Im toying with the idea of making the ballast spin as it falls to provide the rotation for the 'missing' magnet which needs to oscillate at a certain point to keep the magnet spinning!

Since that though, ive thought of a fourth idea, where the entire thing is built inside the heatsink of the stirling engine! - heatpipes would actually run through the falling ballast, superheat it during its descent - water stays liquid under pressure - and upon release at the bottom - would depressurize into steam and automatically rise to the top where it would be cooled back into water to repeat the cycle and the heat exchange power the stirling!...so many ideas so little time!

*been researching these - if you encase them in a vacuum - they can reach up to 3000 degrees centigrade!
post #23 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Civilisations rise and fall. The Middle East was pretty far ahead of the pack several hundred years ago.

There were great civilizations in the middle east, yes. Since 1000AD, though, there haven't really been any. Regardless, today's Middle East is not a happy place.
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post #24 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by mydo View Post

Um yea. Planes and car contribute to greenhouse gases. Elevators are are elevatros why did you even bring them up At least they are electric.

I brought them up because they are mechanical, moving things that utilize stored power and which are very much part of today's world. You say that mechanical, moving things are passe: I say rubbish. You should look more into how these machines store power, because that's a big part of all of them.

For what it's worth, planes and cars do not need to burn fossil fuels. Without those examples, though, there are still plenty of other moving devices that are useful in today's world.
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post #25 of 37
I'm a big Dean Kamen fan... bet you are too.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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GOA

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post #26 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

I brought them up because they are mechanical, moving things that utilize stored power and which are very much part of today's world. You say that mechanical, moving things are passe: I say rubbish. You should look more into how these machines store power, because that's a big part of all of them.

For what it's worth, planes and cars do not need to burn fossil fuels. Without those examples, though, there are still plenty of other moving devices that are useful in today's world.

For storing and retrieving power. Yea. Try to stay on topic. We're talking about renewable power generation and storage.
post #27 of 37
Mark, let's do a quick reality check: to create 1 kg of steam from boiling water, an energy of 2.26 MJ is needed (heat of evaporation). The potential energy of 1kg of mass at a height of 250 m is 2.5 kJ (m*g*h) or about 1 per mille of the invested energy.

It would be much easier to use solar energy to drive a pumped storage power station.
post #28 of 37
Not to defend Marc too much, but if he were to make this a heat pump -- that is not waste energy on converting the entire mass to steam, but rather use the fact that hot water is also lighter than cold water, the efficiency of this plan would go up immensely.

But this all gets back to my point that the energy generated is negligible... even with sterling engines...
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post #29 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeeharhar View Post

Not to defend Marc too much, but if he were to make this a heat pump -- that is not waste energy on converting the entire mass to steam, but rather use the fact that hot water is also lighter than cold water, the efficiency of this plan would go up immensely.

But this all gets back to my point that the energy generated is negligible... even with sterling engines...

that wont work though, hot water doesn't defy gravity even though it does rise. The hot water would simply move up the return pipe to the equilibrium level of the water in the reservoir tank - The water in that tank cannot be at a higher level of the water draining out of the ballast, else it will fill it!

It has to be converted to steam!
post #30 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berlepsch View Post

Mark, let's do a quick reality check: to create 1 kg of steam from boiling water, an energy of 2.26 MJ is needed (heat of evaporation). The potential energy of 1kg of mass at a height of 250 m is 2.5 kJ (m*g*h) or about 1 per mille of the invested energy.

It would be much easier to use solar energy to drive a pumped storage power station.

That might be true - but due to the conservation of energy, converting the steam back to water will release the 2.26MJ - hopefully this will occur at the heatblock of the stirling engine, which I reckon to have an efficiency of about 20% according to the carnot formula - which is better or about equal to using a PV cell to generate power - And then we have created a source of potential energy - however small- that can run a generator during the night when sunlight is not available to power the stirling engine.
post #31 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

I brought them up because they are mechanical, moving things that utilize stored power and which are very much part of today's world. You say that mechanical, moving things are passe: I say rubbish. You should look more into how these machines store power, because that's a big part of all of them.

For what it's worth, planes and cars do not need to burn fossil fuels. Without those examples, though, there are still plenty of other moving devices that are useful in today's world.

a cool useful mechanical machine!

http://www.dailytech.com/Hightech+Wi...ticle10936.htm

and for total PC coolness - Im getting one of these for certain

http://www.dailytech.com/MSI+Showcas...ticle10918.htm
post #32 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post

That might be true - but due to the conservation of energy, converting the steam back to water will release the 2.26MJ - hopefully this will occur at the heatblock of the stirling engine, which I reckon to have an efficiency of about 20% according to the carnot formula - which is better or about equal to using a PV cell to generate power - And then we have created a source of potential energy - however small- that can run a generator during the night when sunlight is not available to power the stirling engine.

I had thought about it, but frankly I believe the overhead in building a several hundred meter high structure strong enough to hold large Stirling machines - or steam turbines - plus a large water tank is by far greater than the possible energy gain due to gravity. And if you are going big scale, you need a large area for your collectors as well. A quick calculation with optimistic data for the Sahara (2.350 kWh/m^2/a) gives an average of 270 MW solar power for a square of 1km x 1km. Assuming we could convert this solar energy completely to produce steam, our 20% efficient engine could produce about 50 MW of power. The steam produced during one day, after dropping back as water from 250 m, would add an average of 0.25 MW to that.

On the other hand, if you produce really hot steam and forget about gravity, you might be able to get a thermal efficiency of maybe 50 %, or 130 MW.
post #33 of 37
Did any of you guys look at that PM article? The article shows that you can generate electricity using goethermal water that's only about 165 F.

Pretty nifty.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #34 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Did any of you guys look at that PM article? The article shows that you can generate electricity using goethermal water that's only about 165 F.

Pretty nifty.

I did. It proves you can generate from natural sources using natural tricks - phase changes and gravity etc.

When you look over the net, you find a good range of clever systems that really make the most of renewable natural sources, and this has to be the way forward until we master fusion. Like everything, these systems are new ideas in their infancy, and just as the combustion engine has developed from a 0.5HP chugger to todays F1 units over 100 years, if we get on with it, im sure 30 years from now we could produce realistic Gigawatt designs.

I just want to make something I can sit in my backyard - just because I can. Im sure its pretty shit really, but if I got it to work that would be cool - even if it only ever powered my torch.

I looked up the heat of evaporation of some stuff after I read Berlepsch's critique. Seems water, though plentiful in supply and easy to handle is just about the worst you can get!

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fl...eat-d_147.html

I have to stick to what I can make and get hold of easily - I dont have a licence for toxic chemicals and cant make high pressure steam vessels!

You should check the price of copper - I enquired about it for the heat exchangers and solar panel heaters (i want to roll my own - wheres the fun in buying prefab? £6500 per ton (or $12000 for you). Damn crazy!
post #35 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK View Post

that wont work though, hot water doesn't defy gravity even though it does rise. The hot water would simply move up the return pipe to the equilibrium level of the water in the reservoir tank - The water in that tank cannot be at a higher level of the water draining out of the ballast, else it will fill it!

It has to be converted to steam!

if it is a closed loop it will allow a continuous flow of water... like in old school radiators...
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post #36 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by mydo View Post

For storing and retrieving power. Yea. Try to stay on topic. We're talking about renewable power generation and storage.

You, my friend, are a fool.
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post #37 of 37
I wish somebody would invent a Perpetual Sex Machine.
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