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Citigroup: Checks point to 3G iPhone within four months - Page 4

post #121 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

No, it's higher megapixels than the iPhone, better/bigger sensors and better glass and a flash. All of which most other high end phones have already, and have had for some years.

But cling to your megapixel myth myth.



How patronising!

Have you looked at the link I posted?

Did you see how large the sensors are on the DSLRs at the 10 mp or higher resolution?

You might be able to get a prosumer compact sized sensor in the iPhone. But more than likely the biggest sensor you'll get in the iPhone is the midrange compact size. That is probably what is in my olympus point and shoot and the pics aren't that great. Very noisy at 7 mp. Maybe they'd be better at 5 mps.

Anyway I'm not the one with the mega pixel myth or mega pixel envy.
post #122 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Is Nokia really much of a player in that business? I thought it was mostly RIMM and anyone else is just picking up scraps.

Because Nokia is not a major player in the US does not mean that Nokia is lagging in the rest of the world. Nokia could never sell another phone in the US and it would still turn a profit and be a dominant player in the market. They are just that big.
post #123 of 207
Quote:
And yet, its pretty close to the EDGE phones in talk time, and is close to the iPhone in web-browsing time...Meh. It's pretty close to the iPhone's batt life, and that's with 3G, not EDGE. It does beat Jobs "5 hour" specification on talk time.

3G isn't used for talk time so that doesn't matter. The Pearl and the Black Jack are more comparable because they are likely closer in specs (screen size, processor, internal storage) than either are to the iPhone.

All you can really say the BJ 2 is better than is the BJ 1.

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Hmm... looks like 3G chipsets really have gotten lots better on power consumption, even 3G chipsets from a few months ago.

Well yes, this is what Jobs said he has been waiting for.

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No... I recall Jobs commenting that he wanted to get at least "5 hours" of battery life from a 3G iPhone. So it seems like he's willing to take a bit of a hit there, just not an enormous one.

The BJ 2 didn't even last 5 hours. I would imagine the 3G chips used in the iPhone will be better.

Quote:
Of course, there are the other differences you mention, but they may not be as dramatic as you'd think. For example, the iPhone's screen isn't even on while you're talking, thanks to the nifty sensor... so that particular difference is largely moot in terms of talk time

The screen only turns off automatically when you put it to your head. When you are using a headset the screen stays on unless you lock it. Or don't touch it for awhile it will eventually go to sleep.

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And I'm not sure how much more juice the internal storage would actually use.

If you are talking on a headset you can continue to do other things on the iPhone. More internal storage provides the opportunity for more activity.

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For myself, I'm sure an iPhone using a recent 3G chipset wouldn't get quite the batt life of the 'Jack II, but it may be 'close enough'.

You yourself point out how they keep improving. The chips used in the iPhone will be even newer than the ones used in the BJ.
post #124 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Because Nokia is not a major player in the US does not mean that Nokia is lagging in the rest of the world. Nokia could never sell another phone in the US and it would still turn a profit and be a dominant player in the market. They are just that big.

I know Nokia is huge, but I meant as a tool for large businesses. I'm totally unfamiliar with what Nokia does for collaborative scheduling, contacts, messaging and so on for large organizations. I know it's clearly within their reach, I just don't know if they actually do that.
post #125 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I know Nokia is huge, but I meant as a tool for large businesses. I'm totally unfamiliar with what Nokia does for collaborative scheduling, contacts, messaging and so on for large organizations. I know it's clearly within their reach, I just don't know if they actually do that.

Nokia can connect to Exhange or to BB. If you look at their E-Series phones, you will see that they include the BB client. Currently in Finland, I was speaking to an Elisa rep regarding BB support and they were saying that BB is simply not necessary. Any mobile device with a VPN that can connect to a backend server can access company services. This is done quite often here. I would imagine that the iPhone will be able to do the same. The biggest problem with the iPhone is the lack of user accessable storage. I am using both an iPhone and N81. I can store docs, files, etc.... on the N81 while the iPhone is mainly for music. There is a third party application that supposedly allows access to a file storage system. I am thinking of trying this.
post #126 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I know Nokia is huge, but I meant as a tool for large businesses. I'm totally unfamiliar with what Nokia does for collaborative scheduling, contacts, messaging and so on for large organizations. I know it's clearly within their reach, I just don't know if they actually do that.

Nokia's E and N series and Sony Ericsson's P and M series all include ActiveSync clients and Blackberry Connect software. They also all do IMAP IDLE, support vCards and iCal.
post #127 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Nokia's E and N series and Sony Ericsson's P and M series all include ActiveSync clients and Blackberry Connect software. They also all do IMAP IDLE, support vCards and iCal.

Thanks aedisdesign,

I forgot about the ActiveSync client.
post #128 of 207
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Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Have you looked at the link I posted?

Did you read my post at all?

It's not all about the number of pixels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Did you see how large the sensors are on the DSLRs at the 10 mp or higher resolution?

Yes. I know how cameras work. And that's why I don't understand why when someone berates the iPhone's camera for having only 2mp, a shit sensor, no flash, no autofocus and poor low light sensitivity, that the rest of the debate is about the 'megapixel myth' forgetting all other factors.

Is a Haselblad shit because it has more pixels than an Olympus Mju? No. So why the asinine debate about megapixels when we suggest, hey, you know, the iPhone camera is a bit shit when compared to say a 4 year old SE K800 or today's N series and Cybershots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

You might be able to get a prosumer compact sized sensor in the iPhone. But more than likely the biggest sensor you'll get in the iPhone is the midrange compact size. That is probably what is in my olympus point and shoot and the pics aren't that great. Very noisy at 7 mp. Maybe they'd be better at 5 mps.

Anyway I'm not the one with the mega pixel myth or mega pixel envy.

And as I've already pointed out, it's not just about megapixels. The Nokia 6500 has 2mp too, and a flash, and delivers better pictures. Or try a Nokia N82...

http://www.knowyourmobile.com/nokia/...a_samples.html

Perfectly reasonable pictures for your average point-and-shoot style snapper...in a phone camera.
post #129 of 207
i don't care about a camera, 2mp is more than enough for what i take pictures i just as soon use my canon digital elf

apple needs two phones one with and without a phone (bto) for enterprise.
they need to put the camera in the front for video conferencing, ichat.

as far as the megapixel myth, a camera review site showed how more megapixels can increase noise and showed the differences. do i really need a 10megapixel picture to send to someone. on another camera phone,.....someone did that to me i'd cuss them out for the download tiime and data cost. how many consumers will decrease the megapixels to be courteous to the "receiver" i've had dingess's send me 8mp snaps of their kids eating spaghetti---actually 6 of them, did they have the courtesy of reducing the size of the download so it wouldn't clog my email box????
2mp is plenty for a phone. and pitching more just for "one ups manship" is a waste and shows how dumb most consumers really are. gee this phone has 10mp camera, but a junk UI....apple is way better. i guess it's cheaper to put a 10mp camera in an otherwise junk phone, instead of spending the $$$$ on UI and real features.

iPhone is the new standard.
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post #130 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

3G isn't used for talk time so that doesn't matter.

Actually, 3G is used for talk time with this technology (HSDPA). Didn't you notice the Anandtech article you used to quote, where the talk time went down when 3G was on? HSDPA handles both data and voice.

Where you might be getting confused is that there are some 3G technologies that are data-only, such as EVDO. But those are used by Sprint and Verizon, not ATT or the Euro carriers.


Quote:
Well yes, this is what Jobs said he has been waiting for.

What I'm pointing out is, if Apple had wanted to get a 3G iPhone out in time for the Euro launch back in November, they could've... lower power consumption 3G chipsets were already available back then. But it wasn't only about battery life for Stevie, because while the resulting 3G iPhone would've been 'good enough' on battery life, it might not have been the absolute slimmest kid on the block... it might've had to have been a couple mm fatter.

So Steve wanted it all... the batt life and the absolute slimmest form factor. To get that required not just a low power consumption 3G chipset, like what the 'Jack II had, but something even better/lower power-- the Broadcom chipset. This is why we're still waiting for a 3G iPhone.

One can argue over whether that was a great choice by Apple, but, as we all know by now, in the context of Europe alone... sales would've been better with 3G.


Quote:
The BJ 2 didn't even last 5 hours.

Jobs said he wanted 5+ hours of talk time, and the 'Jack II got over 6.



Quote:
The screen only turns off automatically when you put it to your head. When you are using a headset the screen stays on unless you lock it. Or don't touch it for awhile it will eventually go to sleep.

This doesn't seem a big obstacle. On my current 'nothing special' flip phone, I can set the screen backlight to dim after 7 seconds of no input (and talking isn't considered input).

It dims after 7 seconds, and then goes off after another 7 seconds... while I'm talking. No incredible software prowess required. *shrug*



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post #131 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

apple needs two phones one with and without a phone (bto) for enterprise.
they need to put the camera in the front for video conferencing, ichat.

That would be good. Some workplaces don't allow cameraphones, and you already see other phone companies acknowledging that. Motorola, for example, made a 325i phone (with camera) and a 325xi variant (no camera). I'm sure the 325i considerably outsells the 325xi variant, though.

I guess all I'd say for a camera version of a 3G iPhone is... if you're gonna put a camera on a high-end phone, really go for it. Put something on there that at least approaches the quality of the best cameraphones (like the N82), include flash and autofocus... and, for godsakes, video-recording.

There's just no good excuse not to on a phone that's this high-end.


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post #132 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Well, considering that you somehow forgot to include the part of my quote where I said the N96 was a minor revision to the N95, I think you got the answer to the first of your questions already.

And in an earlier post I already stated that the iPhone 2.0 = the 3G iPhone, period. So you've already been answered there as well.

Didn't forget. Just wanted more clarification on what are major and minor revisions to you, and what version numbering means to you. I presume the only the way to get you excited for a major revision is a 5+ MP camera/HD camcorder using a gigantic image sensor with optical zoom, optical image stabilization, and a really bright flash.

Quote:
Do other phone lines have the same revision cycle? If by that you mean that all phones should be held to the same standard as far as what constitutes a minor or major revision, I would agree with that.

There's no contention, I was simply agreeing with other folks who stated that model revisions occur frequently in the cell phone market. They do. But I wouldn't call an HSDPA (3G) revision to the iPhone "minor" by any means, as you do above.

The iPhone storage revisions? They're certainly minor, as nothing else was changed.

On the revision cycles, as before, it is really premature to say that Apple won't revise the iPhone or have other model lines of cell phones; and, I think it isn't really true that cell phone maker update their phones every 3 to 6 months. It's 6 to twelve months at best for each cell phone line, and Apple will have no trouble keeping up with that. We know they'll do it at least every year to catch the holiday season.

Is 3G a major revision? Considering the ~10% 3G user-base penetration in Europe and something much much less in the NAM, it speaks to how valuable it is to people the current market. I do agree with you that 3G is a major feature. It is much much more valuable on the iPhone than on other phones because it is more of a MID than other phones, and therefore would benefit much more from it. So I agree that it's major and I'm waiting for it.

Speaking of iPhone storage revisions. I would consider it something more than minor because the iPhone is a music/video device where storage is really needed. Storage is much much more important to iPhone users than it is to Blackberry users, Blackjack users, HTC dujour, the billions of Nokia users, etc. Not having an SD slot also plays into that, but the iPhone will typically be 6 months to 1 year ahead of other cell phones in the amount of storage available, unless people are willing to do the multiple SD card dance.

Quote:
Yup. But no amount of execution gets them 10 million iPhone sales in the US alone in '08, however. To meet their goal, they're going to have to get significant sales in Europe and Asia. And I think they can, unless they are very slow on getting a 3G iPhone out and/or are incredibly inflexible on pricing.

Unless? What makes you think they won't be?

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Actually, the iPhone is already a camera phone, since it has a camera. I guess you mean a phone with a good camera... for a phone. And yes, I think that would help, considering that at the iPhone's high price point, ppl might reasonably expect something like a good camera, plus video capture, a flash, autofocus, etc.

Far as Apple's intentions go, perhaps you are right, and Apple thought it could skate by with the current camera specs. But, what does that prove? Apple also thought it could skate by in Europe with 2.5G and high pricing and do fine. But that hasn't really worked out too well.

Cost of ownership is important, but only if your feature set isn't a deal-breaker to begin with. Apple could lower the price of the iPhone considerably, but if they keep it at 2.5G, it still won't sell well in Europe. Not to mention Japan and Korea, where they're launching later this year.

We're running in circles. I contend it was pricing of the iPhone and the service. The market is big enough to have high end phones specializing in different ways, so I don't think having a high spec camera function would have done much. 3G capability? Not so sure myself. It's vitally important to have... eventually for everywhere in the world. But this winter, I really don't think it is that big of driver. By this Summer, I think 3G on the iPhone will be absolutely vital with version 2.0 of the OS out.

In many ways, the reason why Apple doesn't sell as much in non-NAM countries is because their brand isn't that strong outside of the USA. Improving the brand will be a pretty long term thing for Apple to do, especially in the cell phone market. I'd consider the brand strength to be as big of a factor as prices and features.

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I'm happy to hear that. But I'm not worried about you, as you are not the market.

What I am saying is that it's logical to be at least on par (or close) with your competition in the features that a significant chunk of the high-end cellphone market actually cares about. 3G would be one of those features. MMS? Yes, ppl expect it. A camera with good specs, video recording, flash, autofocus? At this (high) pricepoint... yep.

You may not see it that way, and I respect your opinion. But frankly, I think Apple was a bit surprised at the iPhone's fairly poor reception in Europe, and is now realizing what it really takes to compete there (not to mention Asia). Thus, I think we will see some significant spec bumps and feature adds to the iPhone's camera/video capabilities in the 3G iPhone... not to mention elsewhere.

And if they do that, it will simply be a wise competitive move, not 'featuritis'. But if you see FM radio capability or a flashlight on the 3G iPhone, then you can call featuritis. And I will join you.

Apple plays the spec game in a rather unique way as seen in their computer and DAP models. They target the 90% use features and make them as easy and fun to use as possible. That's their big feature hook. They need to be close in features yes - that's why their is a merely functional camera on it - but they won't be matching the high cell phones feature for feature. This penalizes them to many in the market, but they gladly will forgo that part of the market for those who would rather have ease-of-use, pleasure-of-use.

3G, better functionality, GPS, all those types of things are just part of the long term evolution of the product. As far as camera functionality, well, I think cramming 5+ MP into a camera without the proper sized image sensor and optics, that's a specialization feature to me. I don't see it as a requisite of an expensive phone. The market is big enough to have specialized feature phones without it demanding that all phones have all high end features.
post #133 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

Just wanted more clarification on what are major and minor revisions to you, and what version numbering means to you. I presume the only the way to get you excited for a major revision is a 5+ MP camera/HD camcorder using a gigantic image sensor with optical zoom, optical image stabilization, and a really bright flash.

Sarcasm noted.

Seriously though THT, it's obvious that a revision that brought 3G and absolutely no other changes would be 'major'. I don't think that's the only thing Apple needs to do, however. And honestly, would you be terribly put out if the camera on the 3G iPhone did indeed approach the quality and features of the best cameraphones? No, i didn't think so.


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On the revision cycles, as before, it is really premature to say that Apple won't revise the iPhone or have other model lines of cell phones; and, I think it isn't really true that cell phone maker update their phones every 3 to 6 months. It's 6 to twelve months at best for each cell phone line,

Yeah, I agree. Which is why I previously said I think revisions occur every 6 to 12 months on cellphone models.


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Is 3G a major revision? Considering the ~10% 3G user-base penetration in Europe and something much much less in the NAM, it speaks to how valuable it is to people the current market.

Well, not exactly. More like "10% and climbing rapidly"... most forecasts have 3G penetration in Western Europe reaching 50-70% by 2010. Nor is it evenly spread, either... Italy apparently is already at 25%. The UK is not that far behind.

Now add to this the iPhone's particular market... the high-end, where customers would definitely expect 3G functionality to be present... and you can see why lack of 3G has been an impediment to Euro iPhone sales thus far.


Quote:
I do agree with you that 3G is a major feature. It is much much more valuable on the iPhone than on other phones because it is more of a MID than other phones, and therefore would benefit much more from it. So I agree that it's major and I'm waiting for it.

Yeah, me too. You put Safari on a phone, a giant screen, and a pretty fast cpu, all elements for a great mobile internet device... and then you don't put 3G in as soon as possible? Utter madness.


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Speaking of iPhone storage revisions. I would consider it something more than minor because the iPhone is a music/video device where storage is really needed. Storage is much much more important to iPhone users than it is to Blackberry users, Blackjack users, HTC dujour, the billions of Nokia users, etc.

Good point. I tend to term storage revisions as minor though, because they're just so easy to do. I mean, la de da, lets put a couple more flash ram chips on there, and call it a day. Is the 2GB Shuffle a major revision over the 1GB, with everything else being the same? Many would say no, I'd think, but I can see your point of view too.

Still, I can also see some chucklehead going, "Hey man, I just put a 8GB microSD card into my phone! I just MAJORLY REVISED it! Har har har..."


Quote:
Unless? What makes you think they won't be?

Because I don't think Apple is utterly dumb. They can see how they're doing in Europe, which is to say, not that good. They know 3G is one of the big factors why that is. They also know price is a major factor too. I can't imagine them ignoring both for a very long period of time... in fact, they've already started to address the price issue, as you can see by the changes in O2 contracts.


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We're running in circles. I contend it was pricing of the iPhone and the service.

It was that, and 3G, and a few other things to a lesser extent besides.


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The market is big enough to have high end phones specializing in different ways, so I don't think having a high spec camera function would have done much.

My Euro friends appear to disagree with you, as do my multimedia geek US friends. I don't think it matters as much as 3G, but it does seem to matter.


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3G capability? Not so sure myself. It's vitally important to have... eventually for everywhere in the world. But this winter, I really don't think it is that big of driver. By this Summer, I think 3G on the iPhone will be absolutely vital with version 2.0 of the OS out.

I think that horse has already left the barn. There's little doubt among most of articles I read and most of the ppl I talk to that 3G is really needed for the iPhone in the European market. And the sooner, the better.


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In many ways, the reason why Apple doesn't sell as much in non-NAM countries is because their brand isn't that strong outside of the USA. Improving the brand will be a pretty long term thing for Apple to do, especially in the cell phone market. I'd consider the brand strength to be as big of a factor as prices and features.

I'd say that that same comparative brand-weakness abroad is additional reason to be feature competitive in overseas markets


Quote:
Apple plays the spec game in a rather unique way as seen in their computer and DAP models. They target the 90% use features and make them as easy and fun to use as possible.

The thing is, Apple is used to walking into markets and dictating the terms... successfully. Look at the iPod. Apple told everyone that certain features were not necessary, and by gumbo, they weren't.

The problem is, the cellphone market isn't the music player market. It's much more established, and there's a lot more competition. People, especially in the more sophisticated markets like Asia and Western Europe, already know what they want, to a large extent.

But if Apple tries to dictate terms and tell the market what it should want, that just isn't going to go over very well. It already hasn't in Western Europe. And can you imagine how badly a 2.5G iPhone would crash and burn in Japan and Korea? Eeyikes.


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3G, better functionality, GPS, all those types of things are just part of the long term evolution of the product. As far as camera functionality, well, I think cramming 5+ MP into a camera without the proper sized image sensor and optics, that's a specialization feature to me.

And yet, it sure hasn't hurt cameraphones like the N82 and N95 one whit. They take some pretty good pics, and plenty of their users seem to appreciate that.

Honestly, there's nothing wrong with the iPhone taking better pictures, having autofocus, a flash, video-recording, etc. It may be 'specialization' to a lot of ppl in the US market, but in Europe and Asia, where they're used to phones having those things, I don't think it's seen that way. And, frankly, I think some of the problem in accurately judging how the iPhone should evolve comes from too many of us having such a "US-centric" view of things.

The most obvious expression of that was how slow many of us were to grasp that, yup, 3G really was important. \

I'd be more okay with that 'US-centricness' if the US market was the phone technology leader. But it's not... in fact, the situation is almost exactly the opposite of that. Asia and Western Europe are quite a bit ahead of us in a number of things cellphone-related.

But at least not software, and we have Apple to thank for that bit of good news.

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post #134 of 207
How much does anybody want to bet that when 3G finally gets here, all its supposed advantages are so much horse-hockey, like most of what these techno-geeks are screaming about?

And who is going to print out a picture from a phone at 8 x 10? 2 megapixels is already full 1920 x 1080 HD resolution, and that's the largest format anybody is ever going to view them at. And if you e-mail one of these pics to anybody without reducing it enormously, they're going to put you on their block list!
post #135 of 207
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Actually, 3G is used for talk time with this technology (HSDPA).

Yes that's true. I was thinking about EDGE.

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What I'm pointing out is, if Apple had wanted to get a 3G iPhone out in time for the Euro launch back in November, they could've... lower power consumption 3G chipsets were already available back then.

Obviously they were not interested in doing this. One problem with this is that it would have split the iPhone production line. As Apple ramped iPhone production it would have cost more to manufacture than it does now.

Quote:
So Steve wanted it all... the batt life and the absolute slimmest form factor. To get that required not just a low power consumption 3G chipset, like what the 'Jack II had, but something even better/lower power-- the Broadcom chipset. This is why we're still waiting for a 3G iPhone.

Well we don't know everything Apple knows. They are likely waiting for chips even better than what the BJ 2 uses.


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Jobs said he wanted 5+ hours of talk time, and the 'Jack II got over 6.

But the BJ 2 only got 4 hours of internet time versus the iPhone's 5. Also interesting the BJ 2 got 7 hours of music playback while the Pearl lasted 12, the iPhone 10. When they tested the iPhone using the included ear buds they got 31 hours and 48 minutes of music playback.

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This doesn't seem a big obstacle. On my current 'nothing special' flip phone, I can set the screen backlight to dim after 7 seconds of no input (and talking isn't considered input).

I'm not sure what your point is. Your flip phone screen does not take the same amount of energy as the iPhone screen.

I'm just letting you know the screen does not always automatically turn off just because you are on a call.
post #136 of 207
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Even Teno's not completely hopeless. After all, it only took about 300 posts from me and nine months or so of de-programming to make him understand that 3G actually matters.

I've only said this after what I really said has gone through your George Bushian logic of "with us or against us".

My original point about 3G was that the iPhone would sell well in America without 3G because its not as common here. Which originally you argued against. Then once that did not come to pass you moved on to Europe and Asia.

I speculated Apple may wait two years to release a second version of the iPhone. Because everything from accounting to subscriptions on the iPhone were spread across 24 months. Now I see how quickly the mobile phone market changes and adapts. I see they cannot wait that long.
post #137 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatesbasher View Post

How much does anybody want to bet that when 3G finally gets here, all its supposed advantages are so much horse-hockey, like most of what these techno-geeks are screaming about?

Depends. 3G is a wide term currently covering speeds from 384kbps to 7.2mbps. There would be very little advantage to 3G at the low end speeds over EDGE should you have EDGE available in your area. In Europe however, EDGE isn't very common, whereas 3G is so it's more important even at the low end of 3G.

Secondly, it's not just the data speed that is an issue. Sometimes the main CPU in a phone limits the speed the applications can render data anyway so the data speed is often higher than the phone can cope with. If there's a free bar, you might be able to drink 10 pints of beer an hour but if you can only piss a pint an hour your going to get backed up.

But, more importantly, for those of us that use data, full 3G speeds of 3.6mbps or 7.2mbps which are more common here in Europe are often used with a phone or modem tethered to a laptop. Here, there are people ditching land line based broadband entirely because 3G mobile broadband is actually faster and cheaper for them.

Currently, Apple don't let you tether an iPhone either by Bluetooth or USB and use it as a modem. That's where 3G matters and it's one of the complaints people have with the iPhone. Unlimited data plans are great but you're never going to use much of it if you're stuck with EDGE at best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatesbasher View Post

And who is going to print out a picture from a phone at 8 x 10? 2 megapixels is already full 1920 x 1080 HD resolution, and that's the largest format anybody is ever going to view them at. And if you e-mail one of these pics to anybody without reducing it enormously, they're going to put you on their block list!

It's all about the resolution. Try printing out a 10x8 at 300dpi (magazine resolution) and a 10x8 at 72dpi (screen resolution) and you'll spot the difference immediately.

If you'd not spotted it yet, Apple Mail also has the option to reduce the image size. I don't know if they added that to the iphone but they should. If the iPhone supported MMS, it'd reduce the size to a sensible size already.
post #138 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatesbasher View Post

How much does anybody want to bet that when 3G finally gets here, all its supposed advantages are so much horse-hockey, like most of what these techno-geeks are screaming about?

Your location speak volumes about your understanding and usage of 3G. Your argument is that of" A Porsche doesn't matter because I don't have one". I can say after living here in Europe and other parts of the world were 3G speeds are common place, EDGE is a huge disappointment but one I live with currently. I do almost no browsing with the iPhone unless I am connected via wifi, and only check my emails once and a while. EDGE is just to slow. Before you summarily dismiss a technology that you obviously have not experience, you should do some research first or if you are not sure, it would be better not to say anything at all.

Many of the users of the higher data speeds are not in the "tech" realm but users that like to stream radio over their phones, or use video conferencing on their phones. Ever hear of Fring? Try doing that on the iPhone, or using a VoIP application. I would say your knowledge of the uses and technologies involved are quite limited.
post #139 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Your location speak volumes about your understanding and usage of 3G. Your argument is that of" A Porsche doesn't matter because I don't have one". I can say after living here in Europe and other parts of the world were 3G speeds are common place, EDGE is a huge disappointment but one I live with currently. I do almost no browsing with the iPhone unless I am connected via wifi, and only check my emails once and a while. EDGE is just to slow. Before you summarily dismiss a technology that you obviously have not experience, you should do some research first or if you are not sure, it would be better not to say anything at all.

Many of the users of the higher data speeds are not in the "tech" realm but users that like to stream radio over their phones, or use video conferencing on their phones. Ever hear of http://forums.appleinsider.com/image...eyes.gifFring? Try doing that on the iPhone, or using a VoIP application. I would say your knowledge of the uses and technologies involved are quite limited.


Ouch. A little mean, but probably somewhat true. \

I do think there's a bit of a "If the iPhone doesn't have it, then I must not need it" attitude among some, coupled of course with an overly US-centric view of the cellphone market. It's great to be so supportive of Apple, but... c'mon. This is Apple's first effort (the ROKR was a Motorola, Apple just supplied software), and no one gets it perfect the first time.

They will do better than Microsoft though. That's the company where even its own fans say, "Yeah, okay, it IS pure sh*t, but just wait until version THREE!!"

I mean, Apple certainly does have its Kool-aid drinkers, but I think you have be quaffing the entire Kool-aid TRUCK to be a huge MS fan these days.

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post #140 of 207
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Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Yes that's true. I was thinking about EDGE.

Yep, it's confusing. And of course, if you were outside of a 3G coverage area, ATT's GSM network would then handle voice. There's multiple networks to consider.


Quote:
Obviously they were not interested in doing this. One problem with this is that it would have split the iPhone production line. As Apple ramped iPhone production it would have cost more to manufacture than it does now.

Meh. When a 3G iPhone shows up, one of two things will happen:

a) The EDGE iPhone goes away, and the 3G iPhone is what is sold worldwide, in all markets. No splitting of production between two significantly different models there. Or...

b) The EDGE iPhone hangs around as a 'low end' cheaper model. In which case, what's the difference between splitting production back then and splitting production now?


Quote:
They are likely waiting for chips even better than what the BJ 2 uses.

They are, and likely for the reasons I mentioned. I just think Jobs didn't tell the whole story when he blamed it all on battery life, but that isn't really a shocker, now is it?


Quote:
But the BJ 2 only got 4 hours of internet time versus the iPhone's 5.

I'm just going by what Jobs said, though I'd certainly understand if you were to say that he didn't go far enough. But, getting only 1 hour less browsing time than the iPhone isn't that huge a difference... pretty nice accomplishment, considering the iPhone is EDGE.


Quote:
I'm just letting you know the screen does not always automatically turn off just because you are on a call.

I'm just saying it wouldn't be too terribly difficult to make it so that the screen turns off after a few seconds during a call if there's no screen input, even a call that involves a headset.



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post #141 of 207
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Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I've only said this after what I really said has gone through your George Bushian logic of "with us or against us".

My original point about 3G was that the iPhone would sell well in America without 3G because its not as common here. Which originally you argued against. Then once that did not come to pass you moved on to Europe and Asia.

I speculated Apple may wait two years to release a second version of the iPhone. Because everything from accounting to subscriptions on the iPhone were spread across 24 months. Now I see how quickly the mobile phone market changes and adapts. I see they cannot wait that long.


Ouch. George Bush comparisons? Now you're just being vicious, Teno.

In any case T, I will agree with you that the iPhone has sold well in the US even being EDGE-only. That said, I don't think any of us doubts that when the 3G version launches, there should be a very nice US sales spike.

What was annoying to me, however, was how dismissive you were of 3G, for any market, for the longest time. Your 'two years' comments were ludicrous, and if you'd been paying attention at all to the European and Asian markets back then, you would've known that.

It's not just about the cellphone market changing rapidly... its about the changes that have already taken place in the major non-US markets. Asia and Europe just have higher expectations for what a cellphone should be than the US does, in general, and especially at the high-end. And you either address a market's expectations, or you try to change those expectations by dictating to the market instead.

I think you know which of those approaches I think works, and which one I think is likely to fall on its face.

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post #142 of 207
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Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Ouch. George Bush comparisons? Now you're just being vicious, Teno.

In any case T, I will agree with you that the iPhone has sold well in the US even being EDGE-only. That said, it likely would've sold even better, even in the US, had it had 3G. I don't think any of us doubts that when the 3G version launches, there should be a pretty nice US sales spike.

What was annoying to me, however, was how dismissive you were of 3G, for any market, for the longest time. Your 'two years' comments were ludicrous, and if you'd been paying attention at all to the European and Asian markets back then, you would've known that.

It's not just about the cellphone market changing rapidly... its about the changes that have already taken place in the major non-US markets. Asia and Europe just have higher expectations for what a cellphone should be than the US does, in general, and especially at the high-end. And you either address a market's expectations, or you try to change those expectations by dictating to the market instead.

I think you know which of those approaches I think works, and which one I think is likely to fall on its face.

.

Nice post Mr. Baggins. My take on the 3G nay-sayers is that they can not appreciate what they do not miss nor experienced it. There is simply no way that 3G can be seen as an unimportant technology. I was initially annoyed that Apple lied and obfuscated about 3G being power hungry, not ready, etc.... but Apple knows that for the iPhone to move on to the next level, high-speed mobile Internet is a must.
post #143 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Nice post Mr. Baggins. My take on the 3G nay-sayers is that they can not appreciate what they do not miss nor experienced it. There is simply no way that 3G can be seen as an unimportant technology. I was initially annoyed that Apple lied and obfuscated about 3G being power hungry, not ready, etc.... but Apple knows that for the iPhone to move on to the next level, high-speed mobile Internet is a must.


Well, 3G was power-hungry (not so much anymore), but Steve just didn't want to do the things that he would've had to to have 3G back then-- bigger thicker battery, swappable battery, etc-- because he wanted the slimmest possible phone, and he wanted it to be 'black box' too, like the iPod and MB Air.

He loves appliances, he thinks swapping out batteries is just so pedestrian.

I'd expect that, before too long, the MacBook and MB Pro lineups will go the way of the MB Air regarding their batteries being sealed in. Not sure I really dig that. \

But yeah, I agree that Apple knows now that 3G is a must. They've always known they needed it for Asia, where two of the three major markets (Japan, Korea) have 3G penetration rates exceeding 50%. But I think they were caught by surprise by how much of a factor no 3G has been in Europe.

They seem to have honestly believed that the 2.5G iPhone would do gangbusters over there without it, even though Europe doesn't even have EDGE in many places, but rather, ultra-slow, ultra-crappy GPRS (35 kbps or so). You just have to go, "Whaaaa?".

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post #144 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Well, 3G was power-hungry (not so much anymore), but Steve just didn't want to do the things that he would've had to to have 3G back then-- bigger thicker battery, swappable battery, etc-- because he wanted the slimmest possible phone, and he wanted it to be 'black box' too, like the iPod and MB Air.

He loves appliances, he thinks swapping out batteries is just so pedestrian.

I'd expect that, before too long, the MacBook and MB Pro lineups will go the way of the MB Air regarding their batteries being sealed in. Not sure I really dig that. \

But yeah, I agree that Apple knows now that 3G is a must. They've always known they needed it for Asia, where two of the three major markets (Japan, Korea) have 3G penetration rates exceeding 50%. But I think they were caught by surprise by how much of a factor no 3G has been in Europe.

They seem to have honestly believed that the 2.5G iPhone would do gangbusters over there without it, even though Europe doesn't even have EDGE in many places, but rather, ultra-slow, ultra-crappy GPRS (35 kbps or so). You just have to go, "Whaaaa?".

.

Sooooooo true. I am running my Nokia's at HSDPA speeds, and think, why can't my iPhone do this. If I had the ability of a real, native VoIP application, say Skype or Fring, or even iSkoot on my iPhone, I would be content and relegate the Nokia to the "once in a while" device, but alas my iPhone is the "oh well, I might as well use it" device. The only thing nice is that it is unlocked, jailbroken, has a ton of free apps that Apple will probably want to charge for, and my set of Shure ES530's that I use.

Love your dream ticket by the way. Pure poetry.
post #145 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

Your location speak volumes about your understanding and usage of 3G. Your argument is that of" A Porsche doesn't matter because I don't have one". I can say after living here in Europe and other parts of the world were 3G speeds are common place, EDGE is a huge disappointment but one I live with currently.

Exactly: every market is different. Here in the US, 3G's competition is not EDGE, it's Wi-Fi. I think the most significant part of the keynote was when Steve said they "would not limit" the use of VoIP protocols like Skype (and after June there will be others, written especially for the iPhone UI) over Wi-Fi, only over the cell-phone networks. Wi-Fi is being built out here much faster than 3G. Face it, they will both always be limited to fairly densely populated areas, but that's where the people are. Farmers making calls from their tractors are going to be limited to EDGE for a long time to come, if they can use cell phones at all. The point is, for the majority of people here, Wi-Fi is going to leapfrog 3G, and many people will be more than happy to see the backs of the cell-phone companies. When the iPhone came out, a lot of people were saying Apple should become a common carrier and start their own cell phone network. The argument against that was that everybody without exception hates their cell phone provider. Instead Apple is taking advantage of a network that's being built out for other reasons, at no cost to them. I'll bet the reason the initial version of the SDK doesn't give access to the dock connector or Bluetooth is that they don't want people attaching microphones or Bluetooth headsets to the iPod Touch and giving the game away too quickly. I've only just now realized the foresight that went into this whole thing! Apple didn't have to put Wi-Fi in the iPhone, nobody would have blinked an eye if they hadn't. But they did, and then blindsided everybody with the iPod Touch, which with VoIP on Wi-Fi will simply circumvent and replace the cell-phone network in built-up areas with a much smaller, less power hungry chip. So you guys in Europe and Asia have fun with 3G and 4G, and whatever G they come up with to gobble ever more power!

P.S.: The iPhone didn't need an accurate 3-axis accelerometer to tell whether it should be in landscape or portrait mode, either. Believe me, they're so far ahead of all of us, I'm just beginning to see the implications!
post #146 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatesbasher View Post

So you guys in Europe and Asia have fun with 3G and 4G, and whatever G they come up with to gobble ever more power!

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........
post #147 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatesbasher View Post

Blah blah, a lot of old discredited thinking about how WiFi will replace 3G

Wow. No. WiFi is neat as far as it goes, but it'll never have the footprint 3G will have once the networks are built out... actually, Sprint's and Verizon's 3G networks are already pretty built-out, it's ATT that's lagging...

Also, WiFi is pretty useless if you're mobile. If you're walking, are in a car, or are on public transportation, what're you supposed to do, when the average hotspot has a range of only a couple hundred feet or so? \

Sure, it's great when you're at the coffee shop or at work (hotels too), but otherwise, I dunno. Plus, I don't seem to come across many free hotspots... ever.

WiFi has always seemed a bit like a fig leaf for Apple not having 3G right off the bat, though I'm happy to have it.

Perhaps if you'd substituted 'WiMax' for 'WiFi', you would've had a better point, since WiMax has much greater range and coverage. You could use it while mobile too. It's a pretty nice 3.5 or 4G technology (depending on who you ask), and should be a strong competitor to more traditional 3G and 4G wireless technologies.

But WiMax is also probably two years from being significantly built out, and one of its two main US backers (Sprint) has been having a LOT of very serious problems lately...


Quote:
So you guys in Europe and Asia have fun with 3G and 4G, and whatever G they come up with to gobble ever more power!

You're way behind the times. Power-efficient 3G chipsets have been available for several months now.

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post #148 of 207
Quote:
Ouch. George Bush comparisons? Now you're just being vicious, Teno

Didn't mean that as a personal attack. My intention was to be tongue in cheek.

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I don't think any of us doubts that when the 3G version launches, there should be a very nice US sales spike.

I agree there will be a boost in sales. But 3G will be one of many reasons. We know there will be a 2.0 OS and third party apps. More than likely all of the hardware will be updated, more storage, faster processor, denser battery, higher resolution screen, as well as 3G.

Quote:
What was annoying to me, however, was how dismissive you were of 3G, for any market, for the longest time. Your 'two years' comments were ludicrous, and if you'd been paying attention at all to the European and Asian markets back then, you would've known that.

I don't think I was being dismissive of 3G. I just didn't think of it as do or die for the iPhone. You are all or nothing about 3G. I feel Apple made the better decision for 6 hours of battery life over twice the speed.

Quote:
It's not just about the cellphone market changing rapidly... its about the changes that have already taken place in the major non-US markets. Asia and Europe just have higher expectations for what a cellphone should be than the US does, in general, and especially at the high-end. And you either address a market's expectations, or you try to change those expectations by dictating to the market instead.

While I agree with you in philosophy. In current reality the iPhone has generated hundreds of millions in revenue in its first quarter of international sales. O2 reported its first quarter with the iPhone saw a significant increase in its data services and increase in long term subscriptions. iPhones are now used in nearly every country on the planet.
post #149 of 207
Quote:
Nice post Mr. Baggins. My take on the 3G nay-sayers is that they can not appreciate what they do not miss nor experienced it. There is simply no way that 3G can be seen as an unimportant technology. I was initially annoyed that Apple lied and obfuscated about 3G being power hungry, not ready, etc.... but Apple knows that for the iPhone to move on to the next level, high-speed mobile Internet is a must.

I suppose I'm being cast as a 3G nay-sayer. Because I don't fly the 3G flag no matter the sacrifices in having using it.

Apple was not lying. You did not see the battery test Baggins posted. Battery life in the iPhone and BB Pearl both which are EDGE last far longer than the 3G phones.

What exactly is the next level? And which particular phone is already there?

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Sooooooo true. I am running my Nokia's at HSDPA speeds, and think, why can't my iPhone do this.

With Nokia's HSDPA speeds the iPhone would download data for 4 hours, instead of 6 hours.

Apple wants the iPhone to download HSDPA speeds for 6 hours.
post #150 of 207
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Exactly: every market is different. Here in the US, 3G's competition is not EDGE, it's Wi-Fi.

WiFi will only be good as a short range high speed data connection. It will never be as ubiquitous as long range mobile phone data connections.

But it is a valuable technology to have since the iPhone touted WiFi, more phones that were previously 3G only are adding WiFi. New iterations of WiFi protocols will be faster than mobile phone data for the foreseeable future.

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You're way behind the times. Power-efficient 3G chipsets have been available for several months now.

I think this only pertains if the phone has low power needs all around.
post #151 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I suppose I'm being cast as a 3G nay-sayer. Because I don't fly the 3G flag no matter the sacrifices in having using it.

Apple was not lying. You did not see the battery test Baggins posted. Battery life in the iPhone and BB Pearl both which are EDGE last far longer than the 3G phones.

What exactly is the next level? And which particular phone is already there?



With Nokia's HSDPA speeds the iPhone would download data for 4 hours, instead of 6 hours.

Apple wants the iPhone to download HSDPA speeds for 6 hours.

Which Nokia phones are these? Several here have mentioned Nokia this and that, well which one is it that gets only 4 hours? What is the battery size? Where were the tests performed? Was it open network, on in a lab? Your claims are just air, as I use a Nokia N81 (non-HSDPA but 3G), and an E90 as well as an E61 and they last all day with the E61 lasting the longest. I use 3G services and telephone the entire day and have plenty of battery life left.
post #152 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

WiFi will only be good as a short range high speed data connection. It will never be as ubiquitous as long range mobile phone data connections.

But it is a valuable technology to have since the iPhone touted WiFi, more phones that were previously 3G only are adding WiFi. New iterations of WiFi protocols will be faster than mobile phone data for the foreseeable future.



I think this only pertains if the phone has low power needs all around.

So are you saying if the phone has a high powered need 3G chips are not lower powered? Does this make any sense? Once again, when was the last time you used a 3G HSDPA phone?
post #153 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Seriously though THT, it's obvious that a revision that brought 3G and absolutely no other changes would be 'major'. I don't think that's the only thing Apple needs to do, however. And honestly, would you be terribly put out if the camera on the 3G iPhone did indeed approach the quality and features of the best cameraphones? No, i didn't think so.

Unsurprisingly, yes I would. My interest doesn't lie in camera functions. I'm fine with a 2 or 3 MP function as long as it is fast, good at low light and doesn't have a lot of noise. I wouldn't mind video recording at 480p, but I take pictures rarely and video even less so. I like Internet browsing better, media consumption better and will gladly trade high spec camera functionality for those.

This means I would like to have a bigger screen. With the existing form factor, Apple can probably put a 4" screen in the thing by eating into the sides a little more and into the top and bottom. The home button can obviously be made smaller and there is a lot room on top. They would have to go to 16:10 for 4". At 3:2 aspect ratio, 3.7" or 3.8" is probably the farthest they could go without making it wider. An increase in resolution to something like 480 x 720 to make smaller text more legible in Safari.

I would like to have better cell phone reception, broadcast, and audio performance. This means more speakers - a stereo speakerphone would be cool - and more microphones to me. Better cell phone reception means do whatever to have less dropped calls, clearer reception/volume on both earpiece and speakerphone, better reception deep inside buildings (even my house which has metallic foil insulation), better side tones, etc.

And then of course, software, UI improvements are legion.

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Well, not exactly. More like "10% and climbing rapidly"... most forecasts have 3G penetration in Western Europe reaching 50-70% by 2010. Nor is it evenly spread, either... Italy apparently is already at 25%. The UK is not that far behind.

Penetration of availability to the populace? or Penetration in terms of 3G users versus the overall mobile market (users)? My figure was for users. I'm given to understand the 3G availability should be available to a large fraction of the populace, especially in Europe.

If it is 50-70% 3G availability by 2010 in Europe, heck even user base, I don't think there is a huge rush. Certainly not in 2007. Maybe not in 2008.

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Yeah, me too. You put Safari on a phone, a giant screen, and a pretty fast cpu, all elements for a great mobile internet device... and then you don't put 3G in as soon as possible? Utter madness.

Well, it depends on which tradeoffs are important to Apple. In seems obvious that in a game of EDGE versus UMTS/HSPA, or even UMTS/HSPA versus WiFi, Apple chose EDGE + WiFi in order to have balance with all of the other features and waited it out. Who knows, maybe they went EDGE because they were stuck when Verizon said no, and couldn't make the change in time.

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Still, I can also see some chucklehead going, "Hey man, I just put a 8GB microSD card into my phone! I just MAJORLY REVISED it! Har har har..."

Apple will be 6 to 12 months ahead of the microSD card cycle. If chucklehead bought an 8 GB microSD card as soon as it become available, I think the hundy+ dollars for those 8 GB would be pretty major. At least they are in the $50 to $60 range now. This is one of their strategic mistakes. The iPhone should have enough storage in it to be 2 cycles ahead of microSD capacities.

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My Euro friends appear to disagree with you, as do my multimedia geek US friends. I don't think it matters as much as 3G, but it does seem to matter.

Perhaps your friends are demographically niched.

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I'd say that that same comparative brand-weakness abroad is additional reason to be feature competitive in overseas markets

But that isn't Apple. Apple's brand is ease of use and pleasure of use. They are just as much about art as they are about technology. They'll never compete feature for feature. They only compete on their own terms and if the business model can't work, they don't enter. Like in enterprise desktops or sub-$1000 computers.

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The thing is, Apple is used to walking into markets and dictating the terms... successfully. Look at the iPod. Apple told everyone that certain features were not necessary, and by gumbo, they weren't.

Not really. They've only been successful once, the DAP market, and that has more to do with available content and social aspects then anything else. In the DAP market, it looks like listening to music is 99% of what people wanted to do, and Apple delivered the right package at the right time. Their monopolization of 1.8" drives and flash in 2004/5 was critical to that as well.

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The problem is, the cellphone market isn't the music player market. It's much more established, and there's a lot more competition. People, especially in the more sophisticated markets like Asia and Western Europe, already know what they want, to a large extent.

Once again, the market is big enough for a gigantic submarkets, even on the high end. It's fair to say Apple is trying to create their own market of big screen cell phones for internet browsing.

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And yet, it sure hasn't hurt cameraphones like the N82 and N95 one whit. They take some pretty good pics, and plenty of their users seem to appreciate that.

Did the lack of comparative camera functions hurt N76 or N77 sales? What about the N81? How about the E90? Or the 8800? To me, your argument is circular. The raison d'etre of camera phones is to have good camera functionality. It shouldn't hurt their sales. Even the term "camera phone" bespeaks a unique market subset. Not all high end (high cost) phones have to be camera phones.

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Honestly, there's nothing wrong with the iPhone taking better pictures, having autofocus, a flash, video-recording, etc. It may be 'specialization' to a lot of ppl in the US market, but in Europe and Asia, where they're used to phones having those things, I don't think it's seen that way. And, frankly, I think some of the problem in accurately judging how the iPhone should evolve comes from too many of us having such a "US-centric" view of things.

I really don't think anyone disagrees with having better functionality; as long as Apple has a lot of cell phone models. They just have 1 right now. I hope there will be three by the end of the year (a mid-range, the regular and a "max"). If there is only one model, it will come at a cost. Most likely a thicker device by a couple of mm. A lot of people won't like that trade.

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The most obvious expression of that was how slow many of us were to grasp that, yup, 3G really was important. \

"was" isn't necessarily true. Obviously, we think "will be" will be. Apple made their decision and decided to get what they could get. Was it a mistake? I'm still contending not necessarily.
post #154 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

Unsurprisingly, yes I would.......
"was" isn't necessarily true. Obviously, we think "will be" will be. Apple made their decision and decided to get what they could get. Was it a mistake? I'm still contending not necessarily.

Sorry for the synopsis of your post but I would like to highlight just one thing. Supposedly Sonera and Elisa were offered the iPhone here in Finland but they both turned them down as the iPhone does not have a 3G radio inside and according to Finnish law, a phone offered in a subscription package has to be 3G capable. Some operators invested quite heavily in their networks and they want to get their money back and 3G is how they are going to do it. Last week I spoke with a friend again at Elisa about the iPhone and he was saying that it comes up from time to time in meetings but the fact is, none of the operators here (could include some of the other Nordic and Scandinavian countries as well) simply are not interested in having the iPhone on Apples terms. Considering Finland is probably the most advanced cell phone market, I would think that Apple would take not. The operators here are all glad to see unlocked phones here and people signing up for unlimited data plans, but they do not see the iPhone as a part of their product offering. Many here in Finland are used to more technologically advanced phones and see the iPhone as more so an iPod with phone features. Several of my friends that purchased them realize the phone is crippled (as they put it) but quite handy to have the phone and music player combined. They bought the phone for the convenience rather than the technology.

Who knows, time will tell. Also, with the speculation surrounding the "3G" iPhone, has Apple even filed with the FCC to have a 3G radio put into their phone? My understanding is that it has to have approval, but I do not recall that they ever filed.
post #155 of 207
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Which Nokia phones are these?

I wasn't talking about any particular Nokia phone. I'm saying if the iPhone had Nokia's 3G chips the battery life would be significantly reduced.

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Where were the tests performed? Was it open network, on in a lab?

Here is how the test of web browsing of an N95 on AT&T network was performed.

To test battery performance while browsing the Web we pointed the phone's browser to a test page that refreshes every 10 seconds. We then ensure the phone's screen stays on and timed how long it took for the battery to die. The Nokia N95 with US 3G support kept on browsing for 6 hours and 12 minutes; a very creditable score, but not the longest we've seen; that honor belongs to the 10 hours and 43 minutes that the BlackBerry 8820 managed.


This time, there is only a very slight difference between this N95 and the older one without 3G; that kept browsing for 6 hours and 8 minutes. Although this isn't part of our normal testing process, we did test what happened to the battery life of the new N95 with US 3G support if we disabled the 3G connection and restricted it to an EDGE data connection (which is what the older N95 used). In this case, it kept browsing for 9 hours and 14 minutes. This goes to show what a difference 3G data connections make; they may be faster, but they are also a big drain on battery life. The moral of this story is that if you have an N95 and want to extend the battery life, turn off the 3G data connection and the bigger battery will give you a boost.
post #156 of 207
Quote:
So are you saying if the phone has a high powered need 3G chips are not lower powered? Does this make any sense? Once again, when was the last time you used a 3G HSDPA phone?

Phone energy has to be budgeted out amongst different functions. If a phone has a relatively small screen, slower CPU, small amount of internal memory. The 3G chip can use more of the energy budget and the battery can last longer.

If the phone has a large bright screen, a speedy CPU, and a relatively large amount of internal memory. Those different functions will use a greater amount of the battery budget. Any current 3G chip on top of that will add more power drain on the battery budget than EDGE.
post #157 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

To test battery performance while browsing the Web we pointed the phone's browser to a test page that refreshes every 10 seconds. We then ensure the phone's screen stays on and timed how long it took for the battery to die. The Nokia N95 with US 3G support kept on browsing for 6 hours and 12 minutes; a very creditable score, but not the longest we've seen; that honor belongs to the 10 hours and 43 minutes that the BlackBerry 8820 managed.

This time, there is only a very slight difference between this N95 and the older one without 3G; that kept browsing for 6 hours and 8 minutes.


Wow... the 3G N95 can web browse for over 6 hours on one charge? That's better than the (EDGE) iPhone! :

Cell Phone \tBrowsing Time \tScore
Blackjack II \t4 hours 13 mins \t5.06
Nokia N81 8GB \t5 hours 38 mins \t6.76
BlackBerry Curve \t10 hours 43 mins \t11.66
Palm Centro \t4 hours 22 mins \t5.24
AT&T Tilt \t3 hours 3 mins \t3.66
Apple iPhone \t5 hours 13 mins \t6.26



Nice! Guess the 3G N95 uses one of the newer, more power-efficient 3G chipsets along with the bigger battery (1200 mAh vs 950 mAh).


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post #158 of 207
Quote:
Wow... the 3G N95 can web browse for over 6 hours on one charge? That's better than the (EDGE) iPhone! :
Nice! Guess the 3G N95 uses one of the newer, more power-efficient 3G chipsets along with the bigger battery (1200 mAh vs 950 mAh).

Seeing as the N95 with EDGE lasts for 9 hours the 3G chips are still not nearly as energy efficient as EDGE.
Obviously the N95 lasts longer than the iPhone because of its thicker battery.

But its good to see you looking at the glass as half full for a change.
post #159 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Seeing as the N95 with EDGE lasts for 9 hours the 3G chips are still not nearly as energy efficient as EDGE.

Obviously the N95 lasts longer than the iPhone because of its thicker battery.

But its good to see you looking at the glass as half full for a change.


Well actually T, no. Even the 1200 mAh batt on the 3G N95 isn't really that big. The iPhone's battery is actually larger, at 1400 mAh. So the N95 is beating the iPhone's batt life on the basis of lower power draw (screen, cpu, chipset), not more battery.

Battery-wise, what happened between versions of the N95 is that it went from an undersized battery to an 'average' one. If you want to see a pretty high-capacity cellphone battery, look at the Treo 650... 1800 mAh battery, standard. Treo 755p and Blackjack II are pretty big too.

And then of course there's aftermarket insanity like 3600 mAh extended batteries for the PSP that stick out like big camel humps.

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post #160 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Wow... the 3G N95 can web browse for over 6 hours on one charge? That's better than the (EDGE) iPhone! :

Cell Phone Browsing Time Score
Blackjack II 4 hours 13 mins 5.06
Nokia N81 8GB 5 hours 38 mins 6.76
BlackBerry Curve 10 hours 43 mins 11.66
Palm Centro 4 hours 22 mins 5.24
AT&T Tilt 3 hours 3 mins 3.66
Apple iPhone 5 hours 13 mins 6.26


Nice! Guess the 3G N95 uses one of the newer, more power-efficient 3G chipsets along with the bigger battery (1200 mAh vs 950 mAh). .

I can't believe you guys have gone round and round on this. Especially this. It's pretty unequivocal and proven that 3G chipsets are more power hungry than EDGE chipsets. You can see it in all of the specifications. What Apple's been saying about it is pretty consistent too (takes too much board space, not integrated enough, power hungry; all resulting in bigger device or a battery life tradeoff). And the more power efficient one aren't coming until Spring this year.

TBaggins quotes wirelessinfo.com's N95-3 review (btw, one of my favorite cell phone sites as they actually have a fairly scientific process, not the greatest but certainly much better than 99.7% of the reviewers out there) for battery performance during web-browsing. What he neglected to show is the talk time comparisons from the same review:

Code:


Call Time
(4.44)
To test the N95's battery performance during calls we made a phone call to the device using Skype and piped an audio book over the connection to simulate conversation. We then timed how long it took for the battery to run out.

Cell Phone . . . . . . . . . Time (sec). . . . . . . Score

Nokia N95 with US 3G support 3 hours, 42 minutes . . 4.33
BlackBerry Curve 8320. . . . 7 hours, 24 minutes . . 8.88
Apple iPhone . . . . . . . . 7 hours 4 minutes . . . 8.48
Palm Centro. . . . . . . . . 4 hours 8 minutes . . . 4.96
Pantech Duo. . . . . . . . . 4 hours 20 minutes. . . 5.20
Nokia N95. . . . . . . . . . 5 hours 43 minutes. . . 6.86



Two things to look at: 1) Nokia N95-3 (with USA 3G support) on 3G has a talk time of 3 hr, 42 min. versus iPhone on EDGE which has a talk time of 7 hr, 4 min, and 2) the Nokia N95-1 (with only European 3G band support and a smaller battery) on EDGE has a talk time of 5 hr 43 min. For talk time it is unequivocal that 3G (be it CDMA or GSM) has about half of the talk time as EDGE phones. People can solve this be setting their phones to EDGE when talking and 3G when browsing, but that is quite inconvenient. I ask, what are people's experience with 3G handsets for talk time? Do they set their phones to EDGE knowing that they have 1 hour conversation coming?

For chipset size (and battery life), Anandtech did a good job looking at that 8 months ago in this article: No 3G on the iPhone, but why? A Battery Life Analysis. He shows the same poor talk time for 3G handsets. Shows the same web browsing type numbers as wirelessinfo.com. Shows that 3G chipsets are not that well integrated.

Heck, look at the music playback times too. I wonder what is going on with the N95?

Code:


Music Playback

Cell Phones like the N95 do more than just make phone calls; these days, we expect them to keep us amused with music. So, we test the battery life of phones by setting an album playing on repeat (we use MP3 files ripped straight from a CD), then timing how long the phone can keep playing it before the battery runs out. ...

Cell Phone . . . . . . . . . Time (sec). . . . . . . Score

Nokia N95 with US 3G support 4 hours, 23 minutes . . 3.16
BlackBerry Curve 8320. . . . 12 hours, 2 minutes . . 8.66
Apple iPhone . . . . . . . . 10 hours 46 minutes . . 7.78
Palm Centro. . . . . . . . . 6 hours 47 minutes. . . 4.88
Pantech Duo. . . . . . . . . 4 hours 53 minutes. . . 3.52
Nokia N95. . . . . . . . . . 5 hours 40 minutes. . . 4.08



4.5 hrs on the N95-3? I don't what to use a bad word here. That's just not very good for multimedia phone, especially for something that can be done hours on end at a time. It's also amazing that the N95 had longer time at 5.67 hrs on a smaller battery! Wondering if it is using the CPU for music playback or if its just a poor MP3 implementation.

There's no doubt that Apple could have added 3G to the iPhone, but it'll come at a cost that Apple (Jobs) isn't willing to pay.
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