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Citigroup: Checks point to 3G iPhone within four months - Page 5

post #161 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

I can't believe you guys have gone round and round on this. Especially this. It's pretty unequivocal and proven that 3G chipsets are more power hungry than EDGE chipsets.

I can't believe you're so late to the party. Yes, both Teno and I already KNOW that 3G chipsets draw more power than EDGE, but what you may not be aware of is that recent 3G chipsets have improved in that regard.


Quote:
What Apple's been saying about it is pretty consistent too (takes too much board space, not integrated enough, power hungry; all resulting in bigger device or a battery life tradeoff).

Gosh, it's like you haven't read this thread at all. Again, me and Teno already went over all that. The conclusion was that it wasn't only about battery life, but also about the iPhone's form factor.


Quote:
And the more power efficient one aren't coming until Spring this year.

Not exactly... more efficient ones were available since at least November. Samsung used one to help get over 6 hours talk time out of the 3G Blackjack II smartphone. It's fairer to say that the new Broadcom 3G chipset that Apple will likely use on the 3G iPhone will be more efficient still.


Quote:
What he neglected to show is the talk time comparisons from the same review

Not intentionally... its just that what Teno was talking about was browsing time. If you want to see a discussion where I quote talk time results, to the minute, go back to post #116. But that was over the Blackjack II.


Quote:
For chipset size (and battery life), Anandtech did a good job looking at that 8 months ago in this article: No 3G on the iPhone, but why? A Battery Life Analysis. He shows the same poor talk time for 3G handsets. Shows the same web browsing type numbers as wirelessinfo.com. Shows that 3G chipsets are not that well integrated.

Yeah... you're kinda behind the curve again, TH. Me and Teno have been quoting that particular article all over this thread.

It's also an old article that discusses the more power-hungry earlier 3G chipsets, like that found on the Blackjack I.


Quote:
There's no doubt that Apple could have added 3G to the iPhone, but it'll come at a cost that Apple (Jobs) isn't willing to pay.

Well, there's this funny thing about 3G... you can turn it off, if you want to.

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post #162 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Seeing as the N95 with EDGE lasts for 9 hours the 3G chips are still not nearly as energy efficient as EDGE.
Obviously the N95 lasts longer than the iPhone because of its thicker battery.

But its good to see you looking at the glass as half full for a change.

I frankly don't know what the size of the iPhone battery is; haven't really looked, but for web-browsing it's very easy to understand will the iPhone has less life than other cell phones. It's actually quite complex to ferret out the power consumption drivers in web-browsing. Reviewers what have to do a multiple isolated setups. EDGE is lower power consumption, but is the browser burning too much CPU? 3G downloads faster and may burn less power versus EDGE which will download slower. Which CPU burns more energy while browsing? And this is time dependent as well.

But as far as N95 browsing performance, or most other cell phones, it's pretty easy to explain at least the first order. The N95 lasts longer because its screen is twice as small, the graphics only has to drive half the pixels, and the brightness of the screen is only half as much as the iPhone. For web-browsing I have to imagine the size and brightness of the screen is the primary driver for battery performance. It isn't even reliable for reviewers to set the screen brightness at say 8/16 bars for each of the phones as 8/16 bars (half brightness) may not be equivalent brightness between phones. Reviewers really have to put a lux meter on it.
post #163 of 207
<Chuckle>, you're arguing about 'board space' on huge obsolete phones when it's plainly simple that that isn't an issue - just pick up a Nokia 6500 classic or SE W880.

The iPhone is big because they had to fit in a virtual keyboard you can actually type on. After that they needed a huge battery to power the stupid overspec screen. And then they used ancient chips, ancient camera and ancient radio because they designed it ages ago and thought they'd get it out before it was obsolete in the USA. And you bought it.
post #164 of 207
Quote:
Well actually T, no. Even the 1200 mAh batt on the 3G N95 isn't really that big. The iPhone's battery is actually larger, at 1400 mAh. So the N95 is beating the iPhone's batt life on the basis of lower power draw (screen, cpu, chipset), not more battery.

Really? The N95 is twice the thickness of the iPhone. There should be space for a larger battery.

Anandtech though did find the iPhone can browse WiFi for over 7 hours.
post #165 of 207
Quote:
but for web-browsing it's very easy to understand will the iPhone has less life than other cell phones. It's actually quite complex to ferret out the power consumption drivers in web-browsing. Reviewers what have to do a multiple isolated setups. EDGE is lower power consumption, but is the browser burning too much CPU? 3G downloads faster and may burn less power versus EDGE which will download slower. Which CPU burns more energy while browsing?

I agree. There are various factors: the power requirements of the radio chip, the time it takes to process and render the page, and the power required to display the page on the screen.

As I mentioned above Anandtech found the iPhone last for seven hours over WiFi browsing. Apple can probably leverage the speed of Safari to lessen the power drain from the 3G chip.
post #166 of 207
Quote:
The iPhone is big because they had to fit in a virtual keyboard you can actually type on. After that they needed a huge battery to power the stupid overspec screen. And then they used ancient chips, ancient camera and ancient radio because they designed it ages ago and thought they'd get it out before it was obsolete in the USA. And you bought it.

Wow, Aegis. As Apple continues to improve the iPhone your contempt and cynicism towards it only grows.

From your months of complaints it really seems the iPhone is not the solution to your mobile needs. You just like to hang around and piss in everyone else's corn flakes?
post #167 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Really? The N95 is twice the thickness of the iPhone. There should be space for a larger battery.

The N95 is quite a lot thicker, but it's also significantly shorter and narrower than the iPhone, and, surprisingly, lighter:

iPhone: 4.5" x 2.4" x 0.46", 4.8 ounces
N95: 3.9" x 2.09" x 0.83", 4.2 - 4.5 ounces (depending on model)

There's more volume inside the N95 than the iPhone, but not as much more as ppl tend to think.


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post #168 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Wow, Aegis. As Apple continues to improve the iPhone your contempt and cynicism towards it only grows.

From your months of complaints it really seems the iPhone is not the solution to your mobile needs. You just like to hang around and piss in everyone else's corn flakes?

He's just expressing an opinion. He thinks the screen is overkill. I don't particularly agree. He also thinks GPRS and EDGE are old, slow, and outdated. Well, they are, really. He also thinks the camera is not up with those in better high-end phones. That's true too.

He's a Euro phone buyer with a different take on the market that what many Americans have. Instead of being hostile, it should instead be asked, "Okay, so what does the European market really want?". Because if Apple can figure that out and execute accordingly, the difference between that and now will be several million iPhones sold per year, and quite a lot of revenue/profit.


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post #169 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

I can't believe you're so late to the party. Yes, both Teno and I already KNOW that 3G chipsets draw more power than EDGE, but what you may not be aware of is that recent 3G chipsets have improved in that regard.

This thread hasn't really shown evidence of that. Do you know what 3G chipset the Blackjack I and II use? Who knows, we may even be able to dig their TDP.

Quote:
Gosh, it's like you haven't read this thread at all. Again, me and Teno already went over all that. The conclusion was that it wasn't only about battery life, but also about the iPhone's form factor.

I apologize, but your battery claims caught my attention.

Quote:
Not exactly... more efficient ones were available since at least November. Samsung used one to help get over 6 hours talk time out of the 3G Blackjack II smartphone.

This is where my skepticism flag was raised. The Blackjack II also has 1700 mAh battery compared to the 1200 mAh in the Blackjack I. That's a 42% increase right there. The times I see floating for battery drain tests of the Blackjack I is around 4 hours and the Blackjack II is around 6 hours. About 50% increase in talk time. With another 10% improvement from software, um, color me unimpressed. If the chipset change was from say a 90 nm chip to a 65 nm chip, I would expect something closer to a 30 to 40% increase using the same power source.

And that N95 comment? That's the one that caught my attention! Wirelessinfo give a pretty bewildering set of numbers between the N95-1 and N95-3, I'd almost think they reversed them, but I don't think anyone is saying that the N95-2, -3 and -4 with its 25% increase in battery is translated to more than a 25% increase talk time.

Quote:
Well, there's this funny thing about 3G... you can turn it off, if you want to.

I also mentioned that it would be quite inconvenient!
post #170 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

<Chuckle>, you're arguing about 'board space' on huge obsolete phones when it's plainly simple that that isn't an issue - just pick up a Nokia 6500 classic or SE W880.

Certainly a strange comment aegis. It's like everyone was talking about SUVs, and you trot out a Mini Cooper. Did you notice that these phones also support the lowest of the low "3G" data speed of 384 kbit/s? That they don't support WiFi either? The 6500 doesn't even a microSD slot. The W880 has a Sony memory stick slot an a front-facing camera, but doesn't have EDGE. They made a lot of sacrifices to get to their size.

Actually very Apple like devices. Maybe Apple will use them as target phones for a prospective iPhone "nano".

Quote:
The iPhone is big because they had to fit in a virtual keyboard you can actually type on. After that they needed a huge battery to power the stupid overspec screen. And then they used ancient chips, ancient camera and ancient radio because they designed it ages ago and thought they'd get it out before it was obsolete in the USA. And you bought it.

With the very high satisfaction ratings, people appear really happy with it too! It seems the screen size and UI are pretty important features to have.

Heh. I did the calculations. The iPhone has a 3.64x larger screen area than the W880 and a 2.94x larger screen than the 6500 classic. Kind of funny! Normally, you'd think 30% or 50%, maybe 100%, larger is normal for quoting screen size differences. Using percentages. With these phone we're talking 300+ percent, and a muliplier is convenient to use. If they get any smaller and the iPhone gets bigger, we may have to use "order of magnitudes" type numbers.
post #171 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

This thread hasn't really shown evidence of that. Do you know what 3G chipset the Blackjack I and II use? Who knows, we may even be able to dig their TDP.

I honestly don't, offhand. You can own that, if you want.


Quote:
This is where my skepticism flag was raised. The Blackjack II also has 1700 mAh battery compared to the 1200 mAh in the Blackjack I. That's a 42% increase right there. The times I see floating for battery drain tests of the Blackjack I is around 4 hours and the Blackjack II is around 6 hours. About 50% increase in talk time. With another 10% improvement from software, um, color me unimpressed.

The problem with that is that you seem to be taking the 4 hour talk time figure for the 'Jack I from Anandtech, and the 6 hour talk time figure for the 'Jack II from WirelessInfo. The two sites don't have the same testing methodologies. For example, they both tested the iPhone, and this is what they got for battery life:

iPhone Talk Time

Anandtech 5 hours, 59 minutes
Wireless Info 7 hours, 4 minutes

iPhone Browsing Time

Anandtech 5 hours, 43 minutes
Wireless Info 5 hours, 13 minutes


So, for an apples-to-apples comparison (pardon the pun), you'd need to get 'Jack I and 'Jack II battery life times from the same site.

Neither WI or Anandtech appear to have tested both phones, from what I saw. The one source I've run across so far that has is Samsung itself, who claims 3 hours talk time for the 'Jack I, and 7 hours for the 'Jack II... a 133% improvement, and obviously far in excess of what one would expect from the better battery alone.


Quote:
the N95 hash

Don't have time to look at that at the moment, will try to eventually. The Blackjack thing is the one me and Teno have discussed a lot.


Quote:
I also mentioned that [turning 3G off and on] would be quite inconvenient!

It's not, really. You just have to know the code for the service menu. I do it all the time on my 3G Verizon flip phone... takes about 10 seconds. And, of course, turning 3G off or on could be as simple as flicking a slider on the side of the phone or a menu command, if the phonemaker wanted it to be.

The problem is, the carrier wants to make money off of 3G services, so they don't want you to turn 3G off and on whenever you feel like. But there is always a way.

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post #172 of 207
The fact remains that battery size and chip sets are what is really important. You can have a large battery and old chipset and you will still be able to browse fairly long, and vise versa. In the real world, who sits and browses on an iPhone or Nokia N or E series for 6 hours? Only people that have no friends, or a life. Hell, most people don't do this on a Mac or (dare I say it, PC). So these battery tests are academic in the real world.

I want HSDPA for the few times a day when I need to check something. The fact that Apple missed this and went for EDGE instead is in my opinion just another way for them to sell 3G phones in the future, and short sighted on their part.
post #173 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

Certainly a strange comment aegis. It's like everyone was talking about SUVs, and you trot out a Mini Cooper.

To use you analogy, the point I'm making is you CAN fit an SUV engine in a Mini. In fact, the sportier versions of the Mini have engines which are more powerful than many of the SUVs. You don't need a big enclosure to fit 3G chips as both the 6500 and W880 prove.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

Did you notice that these phones also support the lowest of the low "3G" data speed of 384 kbit/s? That they don't support WiFi either? The 6500 doesn't even a microSD slot. The W880 has a Sony memory stick slot an a front-facing camera, but doesn't have EDGE. They made a lot of sacrifices to get to their size.

Irrelevant to my argument but the reason phones in Europe often don't have EDGE is because we didn't bother with EDGE at all and went straight to 3G. Therefore it's not a sacrifice at all. Wifi isn't very common either or at least wasn't a few years back when those phones were designed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

With the very high satisfaction ratings, people appear really happy with it too! It seems the screen size and UI are pretty important features to have.

...in the USA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

Heh. I did the calculations. The iPhone has a 3.64x larger screen area than the W880 and a 2.94x larger screen than the 6500 classic. Kind of funny! Normally, you'd think 30% or 50%, maybe 100%, larger is normal for quoting screen size differences. Using percentages. With these phone we're talking 300+ percent, and a muliplier is convenient to use. If they get any smaller and the iPhone gets bigger, we may have to use "order of magnitudes" type numbers.

I've a 17" monitor here. It's way bigger than my iPhone so that must be way more useful to carry about in my pocket.
post #174 of 207
Aegis,

The iPhone isn't for you.

You seem to want a smaller screen, a higher mp camera phone and don't place much importance on the UI.

Its just not for you.
post #175 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

The fact remains that battery size and chip sets are what is really important. You can have a large battery and old chipset and you will still be able to browse fairly long, and vise versa. In the real world, who sits and browses on an iPhone or Nokia N or E series for 6 hours? Only people that have no friends, or a life. Hell, most people don't do this on a Mac or (dare I say it, PC). So these battery tests are academic in the real world.

This argument doesn't make sense. One may not be browsing for 5 or 6 hours at time. However, one may do half an hour to an hour at a time multiple times a day. Note that I didn't include talking as being on the phone for 3 or 4 hours can be common occurance for long distance relationships. Talking on the phone for 5 or 6 hours a day, intermittantly, can also be common occurance for a lot of jobs. And of course, listening to music all day can happen. When combining all of the above, a cell phone may not last the day.

The battery tests are academic in a way, but they are instructional on what to expect. Standardized testing is very important too as that is the only way to make comparisons with other phones, and to ensure they mimic realworld use.

Quote:
I want HSDPA for the few times a day when I need to check something. The fact that Apple missed this and went for EDGE instead is in my opinion just another way for them to sell 3G phones in the future, and short sighted on their part.

If this is your usage pattern, is HSPA really something you need? I don't think HSPA will hit its stride until we do a lot of downloading of multi-MB files onto phones.
post #176 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Aegis,

The iPhone isn't for you.

You seem to want a smaller screen, a higher mp camera phone and don't place much importance on the UI.

Its just not for you.

I think you're taking my comments out of context. I'm just countering stupid excuses for why the iPhone doesn't do X and why X is important to some and available on other phones already. The whole can't do 3G because the chips are huge hungry powerstation consuming monsters is frankly bizarre as can be proven by the number of small 3G handsets out there already.

I DO want an iPhone but I'm waiting for the next one as this one isn't that much better than what I've got already. The iPhone's UI is good, I've not said otherwise, but equally I've no real issues with UIQ on my current P910 either. It's not flashy but it works and doesn't get in my face. It's not difficult to use at all and demonstrably easier in some regards such as mass deleting SMS/Email. It also does ssh and vnc and runs TomTom which sadly now won't be happening till June or whenever the App Store launches. And I can use it as a modem for my laptop, which still isn't in the 2.0 software. I'm due a new phone and as I'm entirely Mac based, it'd make sense to use an Apple phone. Sadly, it's not ready for me.
post #177 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

I don't think HSPA will hit its stride until we do a lot of downloading of multi-MB files onto phones.

Oh FFS, get a clue...

http://www.macworld.co.uk/digitallif...S&NewsID=20682

"Mobile broadband is growing faster than mobile or fixed telephony ever did, Bergendahl said: "In Austria they are saying that mobile broadband will pass fixed broadband this year. It's already growing faster, and in Sweden, the most popular phone is a USB modem," said Bergendahl, who was the keynote speaker at the European Computer Audit, Control and Security Conference in Stockholm."
post #178 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

To use you analogy, the point I'm making is you CAN fit an SUV engine in a Mini. In fact, the sportier versions of the Mini have engines which are more powerful than many of the SUVs. You don't need a big enclosure to fit 3G chips as both the 6500 and W880 prove.

I really don't see how you can make this point. The discussion has been how much you can fit into a certain size form factor. For the 6500 classic and W880 and their smaller form factors, they didn't fit everything in. You do in fact need a big enclosure to have HSPA, EDGE, WiFi, storage, processors, etc. Not only that, they only support 3G at 384 kbit/s. They made a lot of sacrifices to get to their smaller sizes.

If you take out EDGE, WiFi, and only have 1 GB flash storage, this 3G chipset can be in the current iPhone form factor too. But what is the point? The phone will be neutered.
post #179 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

This argument doesn't make sense. One may not be browsing for 5 or 6 hours at time. However, one may do half an hour to an hour at a time multiple times a day. Note that I didn't include talking as being on the phone for 3 or 4 hours can be common occurance for long distance relationships. Talking on the phone for 5 or 6 hours a day, intermittantly, can also be common occurance for a lot of jobs. And of course, listening to music all day can happen. When combining all of the above, a cell phone may not last the day.

The battery tests are academic in a way, but they are instructional on what to expect. Standardized testing is very important too as that is the only way to make comparisons with other phones, and to ensure they mimic realworld use.



If this is your usage pattern, is HSPA really something you need? I don't think HSPA will hit its stride until we do a lot of downloading of multi-MB files onto phones.

I have a Nokia N82 with HSDPA, lasts the entire day. I am also wise enough not to expect a battery to last all day if I am using it. I think the operative word here is: "DUH" !!!!!.....

HSDPA is working quite well in other countries it seems minus the US of course. It's like the argument that someone else here made, "I don't need 3G". Well how can you know what you are missing if you have never used it. Stick with EDGE, this seems better suited to your needs.
post #180 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Oh FFS, get a clue...

http://www.macworld.co.uk/digitallif...S&NewsID=20682

"Mobile broadband is growing faster than mobile or fixed telephony ever did, Bergendahl said: "In Austria they are saying that mobile broadband will pass fixed broadband this year. It's already growing faster, and in Sweden, the most popular phone is a USB modem," said Bergendahl, who was the keynote speaker at the European Computer Audit, Control and Security Conference in Stockholm."

Ok, I'll amend my statement. HSPA on cell phones won't hit its stride until...
post #181 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post

I have a Nokia N82 with HSDPA, lasts the entire day. I am also wise enough not to expect a battery to last all day if I am using it. I think the operative word here is: "DUH" !!!!!.....

Do you want to do some battery drain tests?

Quote:
HSDPA is working quite well in other countries it seems minus the US of course. It's like the argument that someone else here made, "I don't need 3G". Well how can you know what you are missing if you have never used it. Stick with EDGE, this seems better suited to your needs.

Sheesh. Ask a simple question. It's like the response I got for asking how the performance of Silverthorne would compared to a Core 2 Duo. You really didn't answer my question. You said: "I want HSDPA for the few times a day when I need to check something." So, are you downloading multi-MBs of data a few times a day? Just Internet browsing? Downloading all of your email? Does 3G benefit you?

It's perfectly ok to want 3G. I want it. So, I'm waiting on a 3G iPhone.
post #182 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

If you take out EDGE, WiFi, and only have 1 GB flash storage, this 3G chipset can be in the current iPhone form factor too. But what is the point? The phone will be neutered.


Huh? Isn't EDGE nearly always integrated with the HSDPA (3G) chipset these days? Because most any HSDPA phone I know of will drop down to EDGE (or GPRS) if that's the only signal available. I'm sure if the W880 somehow doesn't do EDGE, it at least does GPRS.

Also, in the era of 8GB (and rising) microSD cards, is having only 1 GB of internal storage really so awful? The current SDHC spec for microSD cards goes on up to 32GB, we'll probably be seeing cards like that before too long.

WiFi? The chips are quite small. Even back in early 2006, they had ones that were only 20 square millimeters:

http://www.fiercebroadbandwireless.c...set/2006-02-22


Presumably there's even smaller ones available today, two years later. *shrug*


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post #183 of 207
Quote:
He's just expressing an opinion. He thinks the screen is overkill. I don't particularly agree. He also thinks GPRS and EDGE are old, slow, and outdated. Well, they are, really. He also thinks the camera is not up with those in better high-end phones. That's true too.

This attitude is so biased and short sighted that it misses reality. 3G may be widely offered in Europe but in reality is not widely used. Even though its fast their are problems with the practical use of mobile internet.

Apple is building an ecosystem that will help make mobile data practical and usable for everyone. I think the focus on HDPS vs EDGE misses the bigger picture. Market share of mobile Safari has quickly gained a primary role in mobile web browsing. Holding nearly 75% of mobile web browsing in the US. This is because Apple works on the entire user experience.

Apple lists nearly 1200 web sites dedicated to providing services for the iPhone. Including major companies such as Moviefone, Bank of America, FedEX, American Airlines, and the list continues to grow. Nearly every web site I frequent has a book mark web clip for the iPhone home screen. I have not seen other mobile companies successful build such an ecosystem dedicated to the mobile internet. Because Apple is pushing open standards in building mobile web services other mobile browsers will be also be able to take advantage of these services.

Quote:
He's a Euro phone buyer with a different take on the market that what many Americans have. Instead of being hostile, it should instead be asked, "Okay, so what does the European market really want?".

I cannot hold Aegis as the official representative of every mobile phone user in Europe. Just as I cannot represent every mobile phone user in the US.

Quote:
The N95 is quite a lot thicker, but it's also significantly shorter and narrower than the iPhone, and, surprisingly, lighter: There's more volume inside the N95 than the iPhone, but not as much more as ppl tend to think.

One of the advantages of carrying around a brick should be long battery life.

Quote:
Neither WI or Anandtech appear to have tested both phones, from what I saw. The one source I've run across so far that has is Samsung itself, who claims 3 hours talk time for the 'Jack I, and 7 hours for the 'Jack II... a 133% improvement, and obviously far in excess of what one would expect from the better battery alone.

Obviously you have to take what Samsung says with subsequent salt.
post #184 of 207
Quote:
Irrelevant to my argument but the reason phones in Europe often don't have EDGE is because we didn't bother with EDGE at all and went straight to 3G. Therefore it's not a sacrifice at all. Wifi isn't very common either or at least wasn't a few years back when those phones were designed.

Its not irrelevant. HDSPA is a family of services not all of them are the same. The smaller phones you speak of are able to allocate more of their energy budget to 3G chips than the iPhone is able. Not recognizing this is simply a distortion of the truth.

Quote:
With the very high satisfaction ratings, people appear really happy with it too! It seems the screen size and UI are pretty important features to have.

...in the USA.

"According to O2, the iPhone has the highest satisfaction rating and the lowest return rate of any phone in its lineup. Moreover, iPhone users generate roughly 30 percent more revenue per user than the carrier’s average customer."

Fortune Magazine
post #185 of 207
Quote:
I also mentioned that [turning 3G off and on] would be quite inconvenient!

It's not, really. You just have to know the code for the service menu. I do it all the time on my 3G Verizon flip phone... takes about 10 seconds. And, of course, turning 3G off or on could be as simple as flicking a slider on the side of the phone or a menu command, if the phonemaker wanted it to be.

I think his point is more that most people will not turn 3G off.

There is a slider to turn off WiFi. And I know if WiFi is off most of the time it extends iPhone battery life. But I really don't go through every day life thinking about how to optimize battery life for my phone. Very few other people will either.
post #186 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

This attitude is so biased and short sighted that it misses reality.

It's certainly not biased to say that EDGE and GPRS are slow and outdated, nor is it to say that the iPhone's camera/video capabilities aren't up with the best. That isn't missing reality, that, well, is reality. \

The screen size issue alone is debatable, which is why I did not agree with aegis on that one.


Quote:
3G may be widely offered in Europe but in reality is not widely used.

It's fairer to say, "Not widely used... yet", and yet, even that isn't really true. Italy's 3G penetration rate is 25% and rising. In most of the rest of Western Europe, 3G is starting to take off. And it does seem to be an expected feature on high-end phones.

But okay, let's focus on the fact that, right now, not in the near future, and not in Italy, and not so much on high-end phones, European 3G adoption rates are still fairly low, around 10%. What kind of device would change that, and accelerate 3G adoption? Could it be a device that provides a better mobile Internet user experience? Hmm... yeah, probably. And wouldn't such a device likely be... the iPhone?

I guess I don't understand the ultimate logic of having a device that makes people want 3G, and yet not providing 3G capability on said device.


Quote:
I cannot hold Aegis as the official representative of every mobile phone user in Europe. Just as I cannot represent every mobile phone user in the US.

Well, I dunno Teno... you've certainly gone with the US-centric view at almost every opportunity.


Quote:
One of the advantages of carrying around a brick should be long battery life.

Please. There's plenty of phones thicker than the N95. And dimensionally, if the N95's a brick, the iPhone's a plank.


Quote:
Obviously you have to take what Samsung says with subsequent salt.

Really? They were actually very conservative in their talk time claims for the Blackjack I, if the Anandtech results are at all accurate.

And I've owned two Samsung cellphones thus far, and both got the claimed battery life.


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post #187 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I think his point is more that most people will not turn 3G off.

There is a slider to turn off WiFi. And I know if WiFi is off most of the time it extends iPhone battery life. But I really don't go through every day life thinking about how to optimize battery life for my phone. Very few other people will either.


Well, if we're going deeper into this hypothetical example, if that's the primary worry, simply have EDGE be the default. Let those who want 3G turn it on if they so choose. The kind of people (in the US) who would do so tend to be more tech-savvy anyways, and would less mind the occasional flick of a switch or menu command involved in turning 3G on or off.

And, of course, if someone ever complained that EDGE was too slow, Apple could simply go, "Hey, it's got 3G. Just turn it on. Duh."

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post #188 of 207
Quote:
It's certainly not biased to say that EDGE and GPRS are slow and outdated, nor is it to say that the iPhone's camera/video capabilities aren't up with the best. That isn't missing reality, that, well, is reality.

That is true. But you only focus on that missing everything else that goes on around it.

Quote:
It's fairer to say, "Not widely used... yet", and yet, even that isn't really true. Italy's 3G penetration rate is 25% and rising. In most of the rest of Western Europe, 3G is starting to take off.

Yes 3G will grow. The way people proclaim its absolutely necessary is not in proportion to the number of people who actually use it.

Quote:
But okay, let's focus on the fact that, right now, not in the near future, and not in Italy, European 3G adoption rates are still fairly low, around 10%. What kind of device would change that, and accelerate 3G adoption? Could it be a device that provides a better mobile Internet user experience? Hmm... yeah, probably. And wouldn't such a device likely be... the iPhone?

Your focus is entirely on 3G. 3G is one part of an entire system. It is an important part but not necessarily the most crucial part. This is reflected in the wide availability in Europe but the rather pedestrian use.

No its not the iPhone within itself that will raise mobile data use. The entire system has to work well. Web sites and services need to be tailored to the mobile device experience. User interface built for smaller screens and limited hardware resources. There needs to be adequate data speed. The mobile browser needs to render full AJAX and HTML, WAP is not good enough. The mobile device screen needs to be large and bright enough to read text created for a larger screen. While being small enough to comfortably fit in your pocket.

As far as I know no other mobile phone company attempted to bridge all of these gaps. Apple is making that effort.

Quote:
I guess I don't understand the ultimate logic of having a device that makes people want 3G, and yet not providing 3G capability on said device.

You understand it. You just don't want to accept it.

Quote:
Well, I dunno Teno... you've certainly gone with the US-centric view at almost every opportunity.

What exactly is the US-centric view?

Quote:
Please. There's plenty of phones thicker than the N95. And dimensionally, if the N95's a brick, the iPhone's a plank.

Those other phones are even bigger bricks. I cannot fit an N95 comfortably in my jean pocket.

Quote:
And, of course, if someone ever complained that EDGE was too slow, Apple could simply go, "Hey, it's got 3G. Just turn it on. Duh."

Sounds convoluted and inconvenient to me.
post #189 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

That is true. But you only focus on that missing everything else that goes on around it.

Not at all. I see all the good stuff that's in the iPhone-- Safari, OS X/UI, big screen, iTunes, etc -- it's just frustrating that Apple hasn't been quicker to capitalize on the good stuff they've already put into the iPhone. For example, you've got the world's best mobile browser, and a nice fast cpu for rendering web pages quickly... but... no 3G?? Wha??

It's kinda like owning a Ferrari, but only running it at 25 mph.


Quote:
Yes 3G will grow. The way people proclaim its absolutely necessary is not in proportion to the number of people who actually use it.

Really? Check out Japan and Korea... 3G penetration rates already in excess of 50%, and climbing rapidly. They think it's necessary.

Even in Europe, where you could go "It's only 10%!", do you honestly think it's 10% in the high-end phone market, which is where the iPhone is competing? And do you honestly think it'll stay at 10% for the general market for long?

The funny thing is that you're arguing against the necessity of 3G, when the iPhone ITSELF will be driving the necessity of 3G, by making mobile browsing so much more popular.


Quote:
Your focus is entirely on 3G. 3G is one part of an entire system. It is an important part but not necessarily the most crucial part.

It is the most crucial part because Apple is actually doing pretty well at all the other parts. The main bottleneck seems to be connection speed. I don't think any of us doubts that a 3G iPhone would positively fly on the Internet.


Quote:
You understand it. You just don't want to accept it.

I understand it, and I don't accept it.


Quote:
What exactly is the US-centric view?

That 3G doesn't much matter, because it hasn't much mattered in the US yet. That good camera/video capabilities don't much matter, because they tend not to much matter in the US market. That the iPhone has sold well in the US, so its inevitable that it'll sell well elsewhere. That the Euros and Asians should want what we want.

Y'know, the typical garden variety arrogance.


Quote:
Those other phones are even bigger bricks. I cannot fit an N95 comfortably in my jean pocket.

Gosh Teno, the Motorola/Apple ROKR is almost exactly the same thickness as the N95. Were you loudly calling it a "brick" too when it came out? Doubt it.

And its not like the iPhone's form factor doesn't have its minuses too. I find it too wide to use one-handed comfortably. Plus, its a little taller/longer than I'd like, though not too bad.


Quote:
Sounds convoluted and inconvenient to me.

Maybe, if you find your WiFi slider switch to be convoluted and inconvenient. If you like, I can explain its operation to you.

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post #190 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Huh? Isn't EDGE nearly always integrated with the HSDPA (3G) chipset these days? Because most any HSDPA phone I know of will drop down to EDGE (or GPRS) if that's the only signal available. I'm sure if the W880 somehow doesn't do EDGE, it at least does GPRS.

Yup. It drops down to GPRS when HSPA isn't available.

Quote:
Also, in the era of 8GB (and rising) microSD cards, is having only 1 GB of internal storage really so awful? The current SDHC spec for microSD cards goes on up to 32GB, we'll probably be seeing cards like that before too long.

The Sony W880 has memory stick micro slot. It only comes with 16 MB internal storage. The Nokia 6500 classic does not have a microSD slot, but comes with 1 GB flash storage.

Quote:
WiFi? The chips are quite small. Even back in early 2006, they had ones that were only 20 square millimeters

If they are so small, why doesn't the 6500 classic or the w880 have it? Could it be that they didn't have room in such small devices? Or it was merely un-needed in European or East Asian markets?

Same question about flash storage, 1+ Mbit/s HSPA, EDGE, and possibly goodies. Why weren't all of those features included in these small phones? We can even ask the question of the N95-1 and the N95-2. Why didn't Nokia just increase the thickness of the N95-2 more so it could include both a larger battery, 8 GB storage, and a microSD slot? Man, these questions are begging too much.
post #191 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

I honestly don't, offhand. You can own that, if you want.

That's really the only way to be sure. Otherwise, we're just guessing. I've looked at the FCC photos (Anandtech has the best picture (legible) of the PCB), and there doesn't seem to be a significant difference in chips. The chip packaging look the same, but the chips can obviously be different under the packaging. I'm also curious whether the OMAP processor on the Blackjack II is lower power as well.

Quote:
The problem with that is that you seem to be taking the 4 hour talk time figure for the 'Jack I from Anandtech, and the 6 hour talk time figure for the 'Jack II from WirelessInfo. The two sites don't have the same testing methodologies.

Nope. I did search around. That's why I said "around". If it was from a particular website, I would have stated a more precise number.

Quote:
Neither WI or Anandtech appear to have tested both phones, from what I saw. The one source I've run across so far that has is Samsung itself, who claims 3 hours talk time for the 'Jack I, and 7 hours for the 'Jack II... a 133% improvement, and obviously far in excess of what one would expect from the better battery alone.

I looked at MobileTechReview and GSMArena for the Blackjack. MTR said 4 to 4.5 hours of talk time in 3G areas time while quoting Cingular's statement of 5.5 hours. For the Blackjack II they got over 5 hours of talk time while quoting Samsungs statement of up to 7 hours. GSMArena just gives manufacturer quotes: the Blackjack at 4.75 hours and the Blackjack II at up to 7 hours.

Samsung's own website says the BlackJack has 5.5 hours of talk time, not 3 hours as you say.

Quote:
It's not, really. You just have to know the code for the service menu. I do it all the time on my 3G Verizon flip phone... takes about 10 seconds. And, of course, turning 3G off or on could be as simple as flicking a slider on the side of the phone or a menu command, if the phonemaker wanted it to be.

The problem is, the carrier wants to make money off of 3G services, so they don't want you to turn 3G off and on whenever you feel like. But there is always a way.

10 seconds is too long. No would do it from a usability standpoint. Yes, there is always a way to do things, but that doesn't translate to easy to do or enjoyable. I know that if 3G hurt my talk time like that, I think I would just leave on EDGE.
post #192 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

The Sony W880 has memory stick micro slot. It only comes with 16 MB internal storage. The Nokia 6500 classic does not have a microSD slot, but comes with 1 GB flash storage.

Yah, but a microSD slot dosen't take up a lot of room... that's why they're called microSD slots.

Those phones could've had a slot without being significantly bigger, but I guess this is what you get when you're prioritizing a small form factor so strongly.


Quote:
Same question about flash storage, 1+ Mbit/s HSPA, EDGE, and possibly goodies. Why weren't all of those features included in these small phones?

See above.


Quote:
We can even ask the question of the N95-1 and the N95-2. Why didn't Nokia just increase the thickness of the N95-2 more so it could include both a larger battery, 8 GB storage, and a microSD slot?

Battery? They did increase the battery from what the original model had. The original had a 950 mAh batt, the 95-2 has a 1200 mAh batt.

Storage and microSD slot? Depending on the variant, the N95 should have either 8GB internal storage, or a microSD slot. Why not both? Probably for the same reason Apple doesn't have both on the iPhone... they figure that if there's a good amount of internal storage, then you shouldn't need a microSD slot.

I happen to disagree with both Nokia and Apple on that one. \

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post #193 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT View Post

Samsung's own website says the BlackJack has 5.5 hours of talk time, not 3 hours as you say.

Now it does, but it used to say 3 hours. Check out PhoneScoop, for example, which gets its specs from the maker and then seldom bothers to update them:

Samsung BlackJack SGH-i607

Battery Life: Talk: 3 hours (180 minutes)
Standby: 264 hours (11 days)


http://www.phonescoop.com/phones/phone.php?p=1066


Or, how about Amazon?:

Vital Statistics

The Samsung SGH-i607 weighs 3.50 ounces and measures 4.45 x 2.32 x 0.46 inches. Its lithium-ion battery is rated at up to 3.0 hours of digital talk time, and up to 264 hours of digital standby time.

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-BlackJ.../dp/B000KJS8CI


Considering that battery life was widely considered to be the fatal flaw of the Blackjack I, it's very likely that Samsung either did one heck of a firmware update, started shipping a bigger battery with the phone, or both. And they sure wouldn't be the first phonemaker to have done so after the fact.

The usual phonemaker fix is to just ship it with the extended battery (because its the easiest) but I haven't looked up what they did here.


Quote:
I looked at MobileTechReview and GSMArena for the Blackjack. MTR said 4 to 4.5 hours of talk time in 3G areas time while quoting Cingular's statement of 5.5 hours. For the Blackjack II they got over 5 hours of talk time while quoting Samsungs statement of up to 7 hours. GSMArena just gives manufacturer quotes: the Blackjack at 4.75 hours and the Blackjack II at up to 7 hours.

For the 'Jack I, those figures may be after Samsung's 'fix'. Or not. Were those reviews right at the 'Jack I's release, and remained unrevised later?


Quote:
10 seconds is too long. No would do it from a usability standpoint. Yes, there is always a way to do things, but that doesn't translate to easy to do or enjoyable. I know that if 3G hurt my talk time like that, I think I would just leave on EDGE.

You're kinda missing the point, or you didn't read me and Teno's exchange. It wouldn't be 10 seconds, not if there were a slider or a menu command to turn 3G off/on. And maybe you'd be perfectly happy with leaving it on EDGE, while Joe Power User next to you decided to turn the 3G on.

That's the cool thing when you're offered choices... you get to make 'em.

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post #194 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Considering that battery life was widely considered to be the fatal flaw of the Blackjack I, it's very likely that Samsung either did one heck of a firmware update, started shipping a bigger battery with the phone, or both. And they sure wouldn't be the first phonemaker to have done so after the fact.

The usual phonemaker fix is to just ship it with the extended battery (because its the easiest) but I haven't looked up what they did here.

Based on the reviews I looked through, they ship a spare standard battery (for a total of 2 standard batteries) in the box. However, I kind of doubt that the reviewers that quote 4 to 4.5 hours of talk time are quoting talk time for 2 batteries as that would be one of those things people wouldn't casually forget about. I also find it hard to believe Samsung is doing that as well.

Quote:
For the 'Jack I, those figures may be after Samsung's 'fix'. Or not. Were those reviews right at the 'Jack I's release, and remained unrevised later?

I have no idea. The MTR review is dated Nov 26, 2006, a mere 13 days after Phonescoop previewed it.

Quote:
You're kinda missing the point, or you didn't read me and Teno's exchange. It wouldn't be 10 seconds, not if there were a slider or a menu command to turn 3G off/on. And maybe you'd be perfectly happy with leaving it on EDGE, while Joe Power User next to you decided to turn the 3G on.

That's the cool thing when you're offered choices... you get to make 'em.

I remembe talk of an easier way to switch the data bands. But it doesn't exist yet. If it was there sure, it'll be nice. Even with an easy way, it is still inconvenient. Push email is popular for reason.
post #195 of 207
Quote:
it's just frustrating that Apple hasn't been quicker to capitalize on the good stuff they've already put into the iPhone.

They are capitalizing on it. That is the reason why there are nearly 1200 web services built for the iPhone. That is why thousands of websites have icon web clips. That is why 100,000 developers downloaded the SDK. That is why Google has seen a 50% surge in mobile internet traffic. This is why mobile Safari holds nearly 75% of the mobile marketshare in the US, inspite of Sprint and Verizon having widely deployed 3G networks. The iPhone holds 2% of worldwide smartphone marketshare, mobile Safari is just short of Symbian in browser marketshare.

Your focus is solely on the data connection. While Apple's focus is on the entire mobile experience. The results are clear.

Quote:
Even in Europe, where you could go "It's only 10%!", do you honestly think it's 10% in the high-end phone market, which is where the iPhone is competing? And do you honestly think it'll stay at 10% for the general market for long?

According to Matthew Key CEO of O2 only 1.8% of other mobile phones use the highest amount of data as the iPhone on O2.

"Mr Key is excited about how iPhone customers are turning out to have a big appetite for data services. About 60 per cent are sending or receiving more than 25MB of data a month, which is the equivalent of sending 7,500 e-mails. By comparison, only 1.8 per cent of O2’s other mobile customers on monthly contracts are consuming more than 25MB a month."

Quote:
The funny thing is that you're arguing against the necessity of 3G, when the iPhone ITSELF will be driving the necessity of 3G, by making mobile browsing so much more popular.

Again you are looking at it in black and white, for or against. I am not against 3G. I think it is important and Apple needs to adopt it as soon as possible. But I don't think it is as important as you do.

Quote:
The main bottleneck seems to be connection speed. I don't think any of us doubts that a 3G iPhone would positively fly on the Internet.

"The iPhone is generating "unheard-of levels of mobile Internet usage," according to Vivek Dev, COO of Telefónica O2 Europe, the sole carrier of the device in the United Kingdom. Web browsing and e-mail are two of the primary purposes of the iPhone, and O2 customers have unlimited use under current plans. Traffic is said to be so high in fact that it is straining O2's network, and this is only expected to become worse as the company switches to flat data fees."

The bottleneck seems to be in O2's ability to handle the data traffic. O2 did not have to deal with this level of data usage from its other phones.

Quote:
Maybe, if you find your WiFi slider switch to be convoluted and inconvenient. If you like, I can explain its operation to you.

Clearly I was talking about your plan as being convoluted and inconvenient.
post #196 of 207
Quote:
That 3G doesn't much matter, because it hasn't much mattered in the US yet. That good camera/video capabilities don't much matter, because they tend not to much matter in the US market. That the iPhone has sold well in the US, so its inevitable that it'll sell well elsewhere. That the Euros and Asians should want what we want.

Y'know, the typical garden variety arrogance.

I've never said any of this.

I've said that the iPhone would sell well in US because 3G hasn't yet been a big selling point.

I think you guys over play the importance of camera/video on phones. I've seen no correlation between the best selling phones having the best cameras.

I never said the iPhone would sell well everywhere because it sold well in the US. I actually said I didn't think the iPhone would sell as well because their is more competition in Europe. I said the iPhone will sell as well as the best selling phones in Europe. Which you've argued means the iPhone is selling poorly.
post #197 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBaggins View Post

Not entirely. You need a chipset (hardware) that can support vid capture, more megapixels, etc. And of course there's the lens and physical space available for the camera, as you've pointed out.

"Showtime" has proven that the iPhone's camera supports video capture.
post #198 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by darngooddesign View Post

"Showtime" has proven that the iPhone's camera supports video capture.


And yet, why isn't it enabled then?

To Teno and THT: Fascinating stuff guys, and as Teno knows, I can go on another hundred posts or so easily.

However, there's been a family emergency, so I'm gonna have to pick this up again in awhile. Don't miss me too much.

In the meanwhile, remember... you know you want it:






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post #199 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I think you guys over play the importance of camera/video on phones. I've seen no correlation between the best selling phones having the best cameras.

I don't think we are.

All we're saying is the camera in the iPhone is a bit shit for an expensive phone and deserves to be better and offering up comparisons.

Same with lack of 3G - that's a bit chit for an expensive phone.

Neither mean the iPhone is a bad phone, far from it. Lotus Elises are great cars but they're missing carpet, air con and an easy to use roof. They aren't Lexuss (Lexi?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I never said the iPhone would sell well everywhere because it sold well in the US. I actually said I didn't think the iPhone would sell as well because their is more competition in Europe. I said the iPhone will sell as well as the best selling phones in Europe. Which you've argued means the iPhone is selling poorly.

It's selling about ten times as many in the USA as Europe. Massive hit in the USA - An also ran in Europe. The reasons for that are partly stiffer competition, partly pricing and partly it's feature set. Apple can't change anything about the competition but the other two are open to improvement particularly in Europe where pricing is keener and phone features more advanced and more used.
post #200 of 207
Quote:
However, there's been a family emergency, so I'm gonna have to pick this up again in awhile. Don't miss me too much.

I hope everyone is OK.

Quote:
In the meanwhile, remember... you know you want it:

I'm buying it as soon as it goes on sale.
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