Citigroup: Checks point to 3G iPhone within four months - Page 3

Sure but I think the enterprise market is going to be a *lot* bigger than the market for 5 megapixel camera phones.

Why would a company have to switch to Macs if they adopted iPhones? Sure they may want a few in house if they decide to write apps but I know a lot of people with iPhones that have windows computers. iTunes works ok on pcs.

Indeed it does. ActiveSync support is useless to me and most of the small to medium businesses I deal with. A camera isn't.


That's the whole point of Apple licencing Microsoft's proprietary ActiveSync. It integrates an iPhone into Exchange directly sharing Exchanges calendars, mail and ActiveDirectory address book. It's about working with Exchange and NOT SWITCHING to the Mac.

It's in almost direct competition to Apple's CalDav, IMAP Mail and Open Directory facilities on their servers or anyone else's servers that implement the same open protocols. And that's why I'm slightly sad. It's not that they added ActiveSync - that's obviously a good thing for getting iPhones into MS dominated businesses - it's that they've not added support for their own systems and beefed up their own sharing services.

Where 'enterprise market' = Microsoft Exchange.

I'd disagree though. The 5mp camera phone market is already way, way, way, way bigger than the Exchange market. Maybe not in the USA but you're weird.

There is clear evidence of the Exchange market. I honestly don't know where to find this 5MP camera phone market. Except in your imagination.

The day I can go to a camera enthusiast website and see them comparing camera phones. Then I will agree with you.

Or 'Europe' as we call it.


dpreview.com good enough for you...

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=26344417

So America isn't the only place that the crazies live? Focusing on the most worthless measurement of a given device has to be a definition of crazy. If someone wants a 5MP phone, then they can buy someone elses's product. If it's any good, it'll be a good-sized brick, like the N95 that people seem to like. N95's camera isn't good because it is 5MP, it's good because it's a relatively large (physical size) camera. iPhone's camera isn't bad because it's 2MP. It's bad because it's got a tiny (physical size) camera. Pixels and quality don't correlate very well to each other, there are too many other factors. I think Apple might include a higher MP camera, but I doubt it would be much better.


One thread really doesn't cover it. They don't have a forum specifically covering that kind of device, they treat it as a subset of "other cameras".

Ah I love the smell of kool-aid in the morning.

So you really don't have much of an argument other than to just insinuate that we're just being vapid fanboys here?

I really don't think I'm going to change anything. Teno's still the same after multiple attempts to explain that Europe isn't like America at all. I can throw all the graphs and stats at you you want and it's still apparently America & Apple No.1 yippe-kay-ah.

The USA is soooo behind in technology it's sicking. People in the US get so excited over OLD! technology. People if apple want to put 5 or more megapixel in a cameraphone, they could do it TODAY! But why? when it make more sense to release it one megapixel at a time. this way your american can do what they do best, (Spend), to always want the latest & the greatest every year. Hence keep buying a new cameraphone every year or so. So Apple is very smart to do it this way in America. But over seas the people are way to smart to fall for that crap and won't buy. So as long as America want to keep dishing out the cash for a new cameraphone because it's NEW. Heck why should Apple give you the best now... So either stop buying, until your demand or heard, or stop crying and buy the iPhone...

Samsung's SCH-B600 10 megapixel cameraphone.. And it take GREAT PICTURES like a real camera

http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/09/l...l-cameraphone/

5 MP is OLD! Samsung's SCH-B600 10 megapixel cameraphone. US is way behind

http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/09/l...l-cameraphone/

Yes I'm sure Apple will come out with a 2.1 MP in the next version, then a 3 MP, then a 3.1 MP, Then a 4, well you get the idea... SELL Sell Sell

http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/09/l...l-cameraphone/

It looks like it has some promise, but the promise isn't in the MPs themselves but the general size and apparent operation of the optics, i.e, it's not a pinhole camera. It probably still doesn't have any actual resolution beyond 5MP, but who knows. I can't find an article that shows pictures taken WITH that device, so how do you know it takes great pictures?

I can't find the dimensions either.

If you need a 10 megapixel image use a DSLR which has a proper image sensor for such a high megapixel resolution.

You do know what an image sensor is, don't you?

Thanks a lot, Aegis. You made me spit half the cup of coffee I was drinking.


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I think Jeff's above comment is the most intelligent of the whole phony "enterprise vs camera" debate.

How is this an "either/or" situation? Why can't I have enterprise software features AND nice camera/video capabilities? Yeesh.

What's next, a 3G vs exterior color debate?

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I think he does, he just seems to be tremendously tired of how unrelentingly US-centric our views tend to be.

Europe's a very different market, and prizes different things than we do to some extent. Asia no doubt will be different too, as we'll see when Apple launches there in a few months too.

Heck, it's not like even the US market is completely homogeneous. As ATT's 3G coverage improves, people in urban areas will go, "Yay, 3G iPhone, finally!!!" while ppl in rural areas will wonder what all the fuss is about. They won't have 3G for a very long time...


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Even Teno's not completely hopeless. After all, it only took about 300 posts from me and nine months or so of de-programming to make him understand that 3G actually matters.


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Wow, you'd think we haven't entered the age of multimedia. Regardless, Joe Consumer does seem to look at spec sheets, and, rightly or wrongly, thinks more megapixels equals nicer camera. Even though we all know its more complex than that.



To be fair, the iPhone is quite a bit taller and wider than the N95. So if the N95 is a "brick", one could argue the iPhone is a "plank".

But, if the N95 isn't to someone's liking due to the thickness, there's always the N82. Allegedly has a better camera than the N95, and it's 0.68" thick. Still chubby compared to the iPhone, but its hard to argue that it's a brick, when not too long ago plenty of phones were 1" thick or close.


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Many enterprise users don't want any camera function on their cellphone.

Instead of offering an iPhone with a 10 mp camera Apple ought to offer an iPhone without a camera.

I'm in need of a phone that can take great picture, the cameraphone will never be as GREAT as a DSLR, try fitting that in your shirt pocket. as for "image sensor" look it up if you need to know what it is. My point is why are so many people excited over OLD TECHNOLOGY! We should already be ahead of the game in the cell phone we sell, but we are not...

HIGHER MEGAPIXELS DO NOT NECESSARILY RESULT IN BETTER PICTURES!

Please educate yourself on the factors that make up picture quality before insisting on a higher resolution camera in the iPhone or any cell phone for that matter.

This is the 720p vs 1080p debate all over again.

It's not so much "enterprise" users, but some workplaces in general that ban cameraphones for ALL employees, even ppl who will never ever receive a push email. And there are 3rd parties who will remove the camera from the iPhone for you.

That said, I agree that a cameraless version would be good. But so would a version with video recording and a better camera.


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Video capture and enterprise connectivity is a software issue. Without some big breakthrough, I think there's only so much improvement that can be done to imprive camera quality without making the phone bigger.


I won't buy a phone unless it's purple. Or was that green? I forget.

Many enterprise will be needing a 5 or more megapixel, if your working the field and have to take pictures of accident for insurance fraud purpose, display approval so many use for this technology to be update for enterprise purposes. Fire damages when arriving on to the location. So much it can be used for...

Not a debate over 720p vs 1080p, it's about getting into the iPhone old technology better quality way of taking image. If it can be done over seas 5 years ago, It should of been done HERE & NOW. Why should we be behind in technology all the time. Heck Americans invent the internet, and we are way behind in the department...

Not entirely. You need a chipset (hardware) that can support vid capture, more megapixels, etc. And of course there's the lens and physical space available for the camera, as you've pointed out.



That's very likely true... I'm just not sure where the 'sweet spot' is. The N82 seems to do nicely with 5MP in what is a fairly slim form factor, but Jobs doesn't want "fairly slim", he wants "the thinnest", and everything else (batt life, removable battery, camera) is secondary.

No wonder we've had to wait for the Broadcom chipset for a 3G iPhone, when Samsung was releasing 3G smartphones with good battery life back in November. Ah well.



Green. And sadly, there's ppl like that. Have you noticed the explosion in red or pink "chick" phones lately?


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You really don't get it, do you?

Why do you insist that higher megapixels result in better pictures. They don't.

Read this, especially the 'geek note', which will explain what I'm trying to tell you.

Hell I recently bought an olympus stylus 710 to take pics on a ski trip. Even though its a dedicated camera, it still produces poor, noisy pics and its a 7mp resolution. But it was small and fit easily into my ski jacket so I bought it. Now I regret it. The pics just aren't that good.

Until camera phones can accommodate larger and bigger image sensors, putting higher resolution cameras in cell phones will only give you WORSE pictures with more noise.

But hey if it makes you feel smarter than the next guy, go ahead.

I don't insist that higher megapixels result in better pictures. I insist that we here in America should have the same WONDERFUL, GREAT, AWSOME cameraphone they have over seas, I insist on that. Why should we be so FAR behind in technology, what is it that we don't have that the Korean, Chinese, Japanese people have, that we can not provide a cameraphone such as they are currently using. It's call GREEDY company, wanting to release this new and exciting updates on new phone little by little every year, so that Americans can always be kept busy buying the latest and the greatest every years or so. So we just except things as they are Hmmm! We stay quit, and be excited over OLD crapola technology...

You should of done your research before buying that camera for your ski trip.

Camera phones are accommodate good enough image sensors and out putting awesome pictures. But if your a photographer, No a cameraphone isn't ideal for you..

Feeling smarter than the next guy, no felling DISAPIONTED on the crap that we are being feed as new and exciting techno-crap. That is how I feel...

I'm not sure why you attempt to make this into an America vs Europe argument. I'm not even arguing that iPhone's camera is great. If anything I'm arguing no camera phone (no matter its megapixels) will be as good as a standard point and shoot.


I really meant dpreview covering camera phones on its main page. Conducting the same testing evaluations it does for DSLRs and point and shoots.

You are one of the teaming masses who has been educated by misleading spec sheets and does not understand how digital cameras work. Nor do you really know what makes a great camera.

I really don't understand what you expect to gain from complaining about all of this.


You keep touting this but have never shown evidence of its truth beyond Samsung marketing materials.

Don't get me wrong...
Samsung's SCH-B600 10 megapixel cameraphone
Take better picture than any cameraphone we have here in the US

Now a DSLRs and point and shoots camera is far greater.

So my point is why can't we have equal technology that is over seas.
Should we be producing great cameraphone here as well?

So on how a camera works is you take a picture, if it looks like CRAP
Then it must be a cameraphone from America

If it look great, then you must be over seas enjoying life to the fullest



That is how it works

You keep saying this, but where are the photos? The proof is in the result, not the spec sheet.

10MP does not automatically equal a great picture. More megapixels can in fact be a detriment to good pictures.
Samsung and others are willing to push this farce onto poor souls who don't know any better.



There aren't any camera phones made in America.

I'm not the only one who's noticed this before, or commented on it.

If such posts upset you, I have some simple advice: Don't READ them. No one's forcing you to, after all.



Sigh. I have T, you just didn't want to listen, as usual. Samsung claims 7 hours talk time for their Blackjack II 3G smartphone... quite good, and yes, it was released back in November.

Now, knowing you, you'll probably say, "Well, that's what they claim. There's no tests proving that the battery life on the Blackjack II is good."

Well actually, there is:


Call Time (7.40)
To test battery performance during calls we make a call to the phone using Skype and pipe an audio book over the connection to simulate conversation. The Blackjack II lasted six hours ten minutes under these conditions, which is very good performance. Most phones fall between four and six hours. The performance is even more impressive given that the Blackjack II uses AT&T's power hungry 3G networks.

Cell Phone \tTalk Time \tScore

Blackjack II \t6 hours 10 mins 7.40
Nokia N81 8GB \t5 hours 25 mins 6.50
BlackBerry Curve 7 hours 24 mins 8.88
Palm Centro \t4 hours 8 mins \t4.96
AT&T Tilt \t5 hours 0 mins \t6.00
Apple iPhone \t7 hours 4 mins \t8.48

http://www.wirelessinfo.com/content/...ttery-Life.htm


Oh, and they also tested how long the 'Jack II lasts while doing 3G web browsing. It was over 4 hours. Not one hour, like Weintraub said. Guess that's strike two for him, considering Anandtech also disagreed with him.

So yeah, Samsung did release a 3G smartphone with good battery life four months ago. So, what is there to cry about again?

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By the same token, I'm not sure 10MP automatically equals a bad picture, either.

After all, the N95's camera is 5MP, and it sure didn't seem to hurt. Ditto the N82's camera, which is better still, and is in a fairly slim phone too.

Let's just say that I'd be very curious to see some BCH-600 shots. Is it the camera phone that finally pushes megapixels too far? Hmm...



He said "cameraphone from America", which likely means from an American company. Y'know, like Motorola and Apple and Palm.

Of course, it's true that the cameras spec'd by said US companies aren't made in the US. But you could still legitimately complain about that spec'ing, even if the camera units aren't actually made here.


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I'm just really curious as to what exactly do you expect to gain.


Actually looking at these tests I'm more confused as to why you keep pointing out the Black Jack 2 as such an outstanding phone for battery life. Its an improvement on than the original Black Jack, but is about average from the phones they've tested. The BlackBerry Pearl and the iPhone outlasted every other phone in every category.

I'm sure Apple is at least looking for 3G chips that will equal its current battery life specs. Even with a smaller screen, slower processor, less internal storage the BlackJack 2 still falls short.

I'm just really curious as to why you continue to read posts that upset you so. Doesn't seem like that would be great for one's health and peace of mind.



What you forget is that the iPhone and BB Pearl are both EDGE. The 'Jack II is 3G. And yet, its pretty close to the EDGE phones in talk time, and is close to the iPhone in web-browsing time... plus is WAY better than the 'Jack I in battery life.

Hmm... looks like 3G chipsets really have gotten lots better on power consumption, even 3G chipsets from a few months ago.



No... I recall Jobs commenting that he wanted to get at least "5 hours" of battery life from a 3G iPhone. So it seems like he's willing to take a bit of a hit there, just not an enormous one. Far as web browsing batt life goes, I almost wonder if it'd be a wash in practice between an EDGE iPhone and a 3G iPhone, since you'd be done browsing quite a bit more quickly with 3G.

Going back to taking a batt life hit for 3G, all else being equal, the iPhone would take less of a batt life hit if Jobs were to allow a 3G iPhone to get even a tiny bit thicker (like 1-2mm), to accommodate a higher-cap battery. But of course, the second you point that out, some dunce yells, "WHAT?!? You want the iPhone to be a 1" thick BRICK!". As if there weren't a sane middle-ground. Does anyone much CARE if their phone is 0.46" thick vs 0.50" or 0.55" or so? You'd never notice the difference.



Meh. It's pretty close to the iPhone's batt life, and that's with 3G, not EDGE. It does beat Jobs "5 hour" specification on talk time.

Of course, there are the other differences you mention, but they may not be as dramatic as you'd think. For example, the iPhone's screen isn't even on while you're talking, thanks to the nifty sensor... so that particular difference is largely moot in terms of talk time. Yeah, the ARM cpu on the iPhone is faster, but ARM cpus are aggressively power-efficient. And I'm not sure how much more juice the internal storage would actually use. But if you can quantify those things with the same exactitude you've demanded of me on every occasion, and the differences are fairly dramatic, I will then agree with you.

For myself, I'm sure an iPhone using a recent 3G chipset wouldn't get quite the batt life of the 'Jack II, but it may be 'close enough'. Well, depending on how much Jobs wants to sacrifice batt life for ultimate thinness, that is. He seems highly obsessed with the latter.

I just like Samsung's approach, which was to allow the phone to get a millimeter or so thicker in the name of getting a significantly bigger battery, and to use the new, power-efficient 3G chipsets in a timely way. But Apple prefers to sacrifice all else for thinness, and they want to wait for the Broadcom chipset, so here we are.


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No, it's higher megapixels than the iPhone, better/bigger sensors and better glass and a flash. All of which most other high end phones have already, and have had for some years.

But cling to your megapixel myth myth.


How patronising!