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Steve Jobs pans Flash on the iPhone - Page 4

post #121 of 161
DjacK - Amen to that!
post #122 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by DjacK View Post

Disclaimer: I like Asynchronous JavaScript and XML applications just fine, so don't think I'm hating on you dhtml folks specifically. Ajax is cool and credit should always be given where credit is deserved.


Why do you morons think that Microsoft has even launched Silverlight and Apple is specifically trying to downplay the importance of Flash?

OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE ITS AWESOME AND ITS NOT THEIRS!!!

-David H.

Of course because it's not theirs but not because its AWESOME. Substitute POPULAR for AWESOME and you'd be closer - those are two very different things as evidenced by MS Windows and Office.

But even within the 'because it's not theirs' you need to look at the motivations. In MS's case its clear that they want to replace one proprietary technology with another, that they control. They are trying to do this with PDF as well. Business as usual. In Apple's case they are trying to promote open standards over proprietary. This is the right direction to go. If Adobe wants to do with Flash what they have done with PDF and open it up to the same degree as PDF so other can solve some of its problems and adapt it as needed then I would bet Apple would work with OpenFLASH it the same as they have adopted PDF.
post #123 of 161
Not only is flash extremely processor intensive, I would bet they are having issues with the scaling Safari uses.

Pinching and zooming on something that is pegging the processor is probably not possible yet. Maybe when the next iPhone gets an ARM A8/A9 Cortex chip.

Also, for people comparing the iPhone 600mhz processor to a G3 or G4 600mhz processor... they aren't comparable. The chips in cellphones can only process stuff in order and programs with tons of branching code will run much much slower than on an out of order desktop class processor.

The A9 Cortex will bring that power to our handhelds but I wouldn't expect it till the end of the year at least.
post #124 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by DjacK View Post

I've been waiting for an article like this to turn up to give us all a better view of the status of Flash support on the iPhone, info which has as of late been obscure at best. Just so you know, I have a CS degree and have been developing in the Flash environment for a number of years. I was pretty disappointed to learn of the lack of Flash support on the iPhone when it was first released, although I initially figured that it had more to do with QuickTime being a direct competitor than architectural limitations. Now that I actually own an iPhone, I really wish that this problem would be resolved.

Having said all the you did Dave, would you accept that the lack of Flash on the iPhone up to now, is reasoned as explained in the AppleInsider article?
post #125 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Having said all the you did Dave, would you accept that the lack of Flash on the iPhone up to now, is reasoned as explained in the AppleInsider article?

Not entirely, although architectural limitations are surely an actual problem. From the way Jobs is positioning himself, trying to advise developers to move away from using the Flash tool entirely, I think it is pretty apparent that he is trying dictate the evolution of the internet to fit his agenda. The problem though is that i don't think that his iphone is the end all mobile internet device, although it seems to hold that title right now. Mobile devices are going to continually get more and more powerful, so architectural limitations are not going to be a lasting issue. I agree that there's plenty of Flash content out there that is fat and slow, but this is an argument against poor design rather than one against the tool itself.

To say that the future of the internet should be or will be confined to antiquated standards that are primary driven by text and static images is just plain near-sighted. The examples of real-time 3D rendering in Flash that I gave earlier are a much more accurate vision of the future to me. Users are not going to just settle for text and images when there is so much more capability available. Web based software is already taking a foot-hold, and when you have things as powerful as Flash, you will most likely see a migration from desktop based apps to fully online solutions. In fact you are already seeing this with Flash in terms of online desktops/OSes, where you basically can replace the need for a local operating system entirely. When the browser breaks away from just rendering html content to actually rendering all forms of media content as it does with Flash, and you couple this with an extremely powerful programming language such as Actionscript, the capabilities of the internet start to move closer and closer to that of an operating system on a local machine.

-David H.
post #126 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Flash is not the Internet!

Flash is the internet now ... like it or not. I prefer designing HTML/CSS, but 100% and I mean 100% (15 sites in the past two months) have moved to predominately flash website to get the cool interactivity you just can't get with conventional HTML programming.
post #127 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by DjacK View Post

For all of the complete douche-bags on this thread who want to claim Flash should be killed because of your irritation from Flash ads; Shut Up You Uninformed Bitches!
Why do you morons think that Microsoft has even launched Silverlight and Apple is specifically trying to downplay the importance of Flash?

David,
Your first post states many good points. It is very clear and well thought out, and you seem to be well versed in the subject matter. However, the name calling is the one and only rule AI enforces, but more importantly it hurts the flow and overall effectiveness of your reply. I look forward to reading more of your insights after the SDK is released. Welcome to AI.
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post #128 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by DjacK View Post

Not entirely, although architectural limitations are surely an actual problem. From the way Jobs is positioning himself, trying to advise developers to move away from using the Flash tool entirely, I think it is pretty apparent that he is trying dictate the evolution of the internet to fit his agenda. The problem though is that i don't think that his iphone is the end all mobile internet device, although it seems to hold that title right now. Mobile devices are going to continually get more and more powerful, so architectural limitations are not going to be a lasting issue. I agree that there's plenty of Flash content out there that is fat and slow, but this is an argument against poor design rather than one against the tool itself.

To say that the future of the internet should be or will be confined to antiquated standards that are primary driven by text and static images is just plain near-sighted. The examples of real-time 3D rendering in Flash that I gave earlier are a much more accurate vision of the future to me. Users are not going to just settle for text and images when there is so much more capability available. Web based software is already taking a foot-hold, and when you have things as powerful as Flash, you will most likely see a migration from desktop based apps to fully online solutions. In fact you are already seeing this with Flash in terms of online desktops/OSes, where you basically can replace the need for a local operating system entirely. When the browser breaks away from just rendering html content to actually rendering all forms of media content as it does with Flash, and you couple this with an extremely powerful programming language such as Actionscript, the capabilities of the internet start to move closer and closer to that of an operating system on a local machine.

-David H.

Agree totally ... and the only reason flash is not on even more websites is the problem that Google/Yahoo etc have with flash movie keywords. Complete flash sites do not show up as well with keywords on google, but the time is coming and then it is over ... flash will be on virtually every website. When I design website i ask customer ... Do you want a really, really cool website that does not show up on search terms for google, or do you want a "cool" website that will show up with search terms. The former I make a one page website linking to 100's of flash movies ... the latter is the good old fashioned HTML website that is "salt and peppered" with flash.

And by the way I can make a HTML 2.0 site linking to animated gifs take 3 days to draw ... so the flash is evil because of the ads argument given my many just don't wash.
post #129 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by DjacK View Post

Not entirely, although architectural limitations are surely an actual problem. From the way Jobs is positioning himself, trying to advise developers to move away from using the Flash tool entirely, I think it is pretty apparent that he is trying dictate the evolution of the internet to fit his agenda. The problem though is that i don't think that his iphone is the end all mobile internet device, although it seems to hold that title right now. Mobile devices are going to continually get more and more powerful, so architectural limitations are not going to be a lasting issue. I agree that there's plenty of Flash content out there that is fat and slow, but this is an argument against poor design rather than one against the tool itself.

To say that the future of the internet should be or will be confined to antiquated standards that are primary driven by text and static images is just plain near-sighted. The examples of real-time 3D rendering in Flash that I gave earlier are a much more accurate vision of the future to me. Users are not going to just settle for text and images when there is so much more capability available. Web based software is already taking a foot-hold, and when you have things as powerful as Flash, you will most likely see a migration from desktop based apps to fully online solutions. In fact you are already seeing this with Flash in terms of online desktops/OSes, where you basically can replace the need for a local operating system entirely. When the browser breaks away from just rendering html content to actually rendering all forms of media content as it does with Flash, and you couple this with an extremely powerful programming language such as Actionscript, the capabilities of the internet start to move closer and closer to that of an operating system on a local machine.

-David H.

I agree. The fact that these small mobile devices can't as yet, give a good experience of Flash animations is the main reason why Jobs is so against it. He want to bide time until they can do that. Specifically, Apple's devices.

I'm pretty sure that when they finally can do that, his attitude will change.
post #130 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by DjacK View Post

Not entirely, although architectural limitations are surely an actual problem. From the way Jobs is positioning himself, trying to advise developers to move away from using the Flash tool entirely, I think it is pretty apparent that he is trying dictate the evolution of the internet to fit his agenda. The problem though is that i don't think that his iphone is the end all mobile internet device, although it seems to hold that title right now. Mobile devices are going to continually get more and more powerful, so architectural limitations are not going to be a lasting issue. I agree that there's plenty of Flash content out there that is fat and slow, but this is an argument against poor design rather than one against the tool itself.

To say that the future of the internet should be or will be confined to antiquated standards that are primary driven by text and static images is just plain near-sighted. The examples of real-time 3D rendering in Flash that I gave earlier are a much more accurate vision of the future to me. Users are not going to just settle for text and images when there is so much more capability available. Web based software is already taking a foot-hold, and when you have things as powerful as Flash, you will most likely see a migration from desktop based apps to fully online solutions. In fact you are already seeing this with Flash in terms of online desktops/OSes, where you basically can replace the need for a local operating system entirely. When the browser breaks away from just rendering html content to actually rendering all forms of media content as it does with Flash, and you couple this with an extremely powerful programming language such as Actionscript, the capabilities of the internet start to move closer and closer to that of an operating system on a local machine.

-David H.

David H

For me, your comments are the most concise and well informed in this entire article, well done.

hopefully others will now get it instead of talking mis-informed crap!
post #131 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by DjacK View Post

Not entirely, although architectural limitations are surely an actual problem. From the way Jobs is positioning himself, trying to advise developers to move away from using the Flash tool entirely, I think it is pretty apparent that he is trying dictate the evolution of the internet to fit his agenda. The problem though is that i don't think that his iphone is the end all mobile internet device, although it seems to hold that title right now. Mobile devices are going to continually get more and more powerful, so architectural limitations are not going to be a lasting issue. I agree that there's plenty of Flash content out there that is fat and slow, but this is an argument against poor design rather than one against the tool itself.

To say that the future of the internet should be or will be confined to antiquated standards that are primary driven by text and static images is just plain near-sighted. The examples of real-time 3D rendering in Flash that I gave earlier are a much more accurate vision of the future to me. Users are not going to just settle for text and images when there is so much more capability available. Web based software is already taking a foot-hold, and when you have things as powerful as Flash, you will most likely see a migration from desktop based apps to fully online solutions. In fact you are already seeing this with Flash in terms of online desktops/OSes, where you basically can replace the need for a local operating system entirely. When the browser breaks away from just rendering html content to actually rendering all forms of media content as it does with Flash, and you couple this with an extremely powerful programming language such as Actionscript, the capabilities of the internet start to move closer and closer to that of an operating system on a local machine.

-David H.

Yes, controlled by one company (Adobe) - hence Steve's issue.

McD
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post #132 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by DjacK View Post

Not entirely, although architectural limitations are surely an actual problem. From the way Jobs is positioning himself, trying to advise developers to move away from using the Flash tool entirely, I think it is pretty apparent that he is trying dictate the evolution of the internet to fit his agenda. The problem though is that i don't think that his iphone is the end all mobile internet device, although it seems to hold that title right now. Mobile devices are going to continually get more and more powerful, so architectural limitations are not going to be a lasting issue. I agree that there's plenty of Flash content out there that is fat and slow, but this is an argument against poor design rather than one against the tool itself.

To say that the future of the internet should be or will be confined to antiquated standards that are primary driven by text and static images is just plain near-sighted. The examples of real-time 3D rendering in Flash that I gave earlier are a much more accurate vision of the future to me. Users are not going to just settle for text and images when there is so much more capability available. Web based software is already taking a foot-hold, and when you have things as powerful as Flash, you will most likely see a migration from desktop based apps to fully online solutions. In fact you are already seeing this with Flash in terms of online desktops/OSes, where you basically can replace the need for a local operating system entirely. When the browser breaks away from just rendering html content to actually rendering all forms of media content as it does with Flash, and you couple this with an extremely powerful programming language such as Actionscript, the capabilities of the internet start to move closer and closer to that of an operating system on a local machine.

-David H.

David, I take exception to your conclusions. On the one hand, you admit that there are architectural limitations which are a problem and which to me suggests that Jobs is right.

I would think that Apple having spent nearly $200 million developing the iPhone that they would be in a better position to judge whether or not something is suitable for its product. On examination of actual statements from Jobs himself, I can't really find any that truly reflect any position that you have attributed to him.

My understanding, that based on what is available today, Flash does not suit the overall objective to fulfill Apple's iPhone strategy, i.e., to offer a mobile device that firstly works as it should, everytime and everywhere. If, in Apples testing, that current versions of Flash, for example, don't measure up, how can one argue. And as the article so comprehensively explains, Jobs is not dictating anything, but highly outlining means to ensure the viability of his product. Something that he has every right to do. Remember, the iPhone has only one chance to do it right. Otherwise, it will be faced with the wrath of a much larger industry just waiting for the calls to proclaim, "It looks pretty surfing the net, but I can't make a phone call."

But hey. Spend $99 and build a Flash app. You seem to be well qualified. And if you are successful, you will make a lot more money, rather than spending time dising on what Jobs said or may have said. Certainly after today's announcement, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that he has an evil underlying strategy to destroy the world.
post #133 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by McDave View Post

Yes, controlled by one company (Adobe) - hence Steve's issue.

McD

Adobe is the new Microsoft. Unfortunately the original Microsoft lives on!
post #134 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

David, I take exception to your conclusions. On the one hand, you admit that there are architectural limitations which are a problem and which to me suggests that Jobs is right.

I would think that Apple having spent nearly $200 million developing the iPhone that they would be in a better position to judge whether or not something is suitable for its product. On examination of actual statements from Jobs himself, I can't really find any that truly reflect any position that you have attributed to him.

My understanding, that based on what is available today, Flash does not suit the overall objective to fulfill Apple's iPhone strategy, i.e., to offer a mobile device that firstly works as it should, everytime and everywhere. If, in Apples testing, that current versions of Flash, for example, don't measure up, how can one argue. And as the article so comprehensively explains, Jobs is not dictating anything, but highly outlining means to ensure the viability of his product. Something that he has every right to do. Remember, the iPhone has only one chance to do it right. Otherwise, it will be faced with the wrath of a much larger industry just waiting for the calls to proclaim, "It looks pretty surfing the net, but I can't make a phone call."

But hey. Spend $99 and build a Flash app. You seem to be well qualified. And if you are successful, you will make a lot more money, rather than spending time dising on what Jobs said or may have said. Certainly after today's announcement, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that he has an evil underlying strategy to destroy the world.

You're right about the current limitations being a good enough reason to leave out Flash support at present, but what about all of the other mobile devices that aren't any more powerful than the iPhone that can? Of course, the RISC based ARM processor is specifically weak in order to conserve battery power, but there are plenty of things that could (and probably should) be done to get around this. There are already "Flash block" programs out there which handle flash content and don't actually execute it unless you select the content. Even IE has their famous active content selection strategy (another agenda based anti-Flash move if you ask me).

I don't see how you can possibly claim that Flash shouldn't be part of Apple's iPhone strategy if they want to claim it provides access to the "real internet". In this case it would be more accurate to say "Access Apple's Personal Vision of the Internet".

I'm not sure you understand exactly what my main points are here. First of all, to point out exactly how great the Flash technology is for those who only see it as annoying advertisements, as well as give you a sense of it's role in the future of the internet. On top of this I find quite interesting the position which Apple is taking on this as well as Jobs' recommendations and downplaying to future developers in terms of Flash content. This is especially noteworthy in light of the fact that you have a direct competitor of Flash in Quicktime, and the strategic business aspects of this kind of decision.

In the end what we are talking about is a company limiting what type of content is available to the end consumer. I think that this issue, among others, is why a large number of commentators have "panned" the iPhone.

Lastly, I don't know what you are referring to with your $99 comment. I have a salary job with a major technology company, what are you trying to imply? Perhaps that you have a stereotypical view of Flash and Flash developers because you are one of the people I described in my original post? So you know, my office did roughly $2.5 billion in revenue last year and a lot, but not all, of our business collateral is in the form of Flash content. The reason you see those Flash ads all the time is because the tool itself is just that versatile and viable on today's internet and on a much larger scale than that of any capability that things like the iPhone add.

-David H.

p.s. My apologies for the strong-worded name calling in my original post.
post #135 of 161
The question is whether Apple will look to SVG as an alternative for Flash. SVG is lightweight, open standard, and is already supported by Firefox, Opera, and Safari.

I've speculated about this on my blog. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Daniel
Opera Software
post #136 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by danigoldman View Post

The question is whether Apple will look to SVG as an alternative for Flash. SVG is lightweight, open standard, and is already supported by Firefox, Opera, and Safari.

I've speculated about this on my blog. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Daniel
Opera Software

You know, there is also an open source version of Flash out there for Flash development. (osflash.org) However it would still require the Flash plug-in. Yet since the Flash player is free I don't see this as being such an issue. What I would like to point out is that SVG and Flash are not the same thing, although there are obvious similarities. Scalable Vector Graphics are cool, and Flash's original runtime was probably just an adaptation of SVG with a bunch more functionality added. When you compare the capabilities of SVG to Flash though, there really isn't any hope that SVG can replace Flash, which is probably why SVG hasn't really gotten all the much penetration (at least form what I know).

Adobe actually has an entire section of their site dedicated to SVG (http://www.adobe.com/svg/) which I think illustrates their lack of concern regarding it's competition to Flash. Of course Adobe released it's own Ajax Framework, Spry (http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Spry), even though Ajax is a direct competitor to Flash in a lot of ways so maybe this is just a telling aspect of Adobe's commitment to all relevant technologies for the web. In fact, I would argue that Adobe is taking a much better stance on this issue than Apple/Jobs is in light of their treatment of things like Flash.

-David H.
post #137 of 161
By June Adobe certainly will be able to build a flash plug in for the iPhone if it so chooses. And people will be able to use it if they so choose But I see just as much complaint about flash as I see people who champion it. I don't think most people want flash to fail, they want Adobe to improve it. Adobe would have little reason or motivation to improve its performance if no one complained about it.
post #138 of 161
Also David you are looking at the situation from a narrow perspective. If flash were just allowed to run freely on the iPhone more than likely the result would be signifcantly reduced battery life. Most people who know nothing about any of this would assume something is wrong with device itself.

Others who know what the problem detractors will become even more vocal about how they feel flash is crap.
post #139 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by DjacK View Post

You're right about the current limitations being a good enough reason to leave out Flash support at present, but what about all of the other mobile devices that aren't any more powerful than the iPhone that can? Of course, the RISC based ARM processor is specifically weak in order to conserve battery power, but there are plenty of things that could (and probably should) be done to get around this. There are already "Flash block" programs out there which handle flash content and don't actually execute it unless you select the content. Even IE has their famous active content selection strategy (another agenda based anti-Flash move if you ask me).

I don't see how you can possibly claim that Flash shouldn't be part of Apple's iPhone strategy if they want to claim it provides access to the "real internet". In this case it would be more accurate to say "Access Apple's Personal Vision of the Internet".

I'm not sure you understand exactly what my main points are here. First of all, to point out exactly how great the Flash technology is for those who only see it as annoying advertisements, as well as give you a sense of it's role in the future of the internet. On top of this I find quite interesting the position which Apple is taking on this as well as Jobs' recommendations and downplaying to future developers in terms of Flash content. This is especially noteworthy in light of the fact that you have a direct competitor of Flash in Quicktime, and the strategic business aspects of this kind of decision.

In the end what we are talking about is a company limiting what type of content is available to the end consumer. I think that this issue, among others, is why a large number of commentators have "panned" the iPhone.

Lastly, I don't know what you are referring to with your $99 comment. I have a salary job with a major technology company, what are you trying to imply? Perhaps that you have a stereotypical view of Flash and Flash developers because you are one of the people I described in my original post? So you know, my office did roughly $2.5 billion in revenue last year and a lot, but not all, of our business collateral is in the form of Flash content. The reason you see those Flash ads all the time is because the tool itself is just that versatile and viable on today's internet and on a much larger scale than that of any capability that things like the iPhone add.

-David H.

p.s. My apologies for the strong-worded name calling in my original post.

One of the reasons why Flash for the iPhone may be difficult, is that despite all the power, and memory of the iPhone, there is much more going on that is using that power. It's certainly possible that not enough horsepower is left over to run Flash—at this time. Possibly, another upgraded machine will have enough power, and battery life, and then, things may change.

I don't think he meant an insult. It reads to me that he is saying just what he did. That you sound qualified to write such an app, and that the $99 barrier is low enough for you to give it a try.
post #140 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by DjacK View Post

Similarly, all of you who are nothing more than internet junkies should be getting in line to give a nice fat BJ to Flash for the many breakthroughs that it has provided your internet experience, as well as the numerous ones that are still to come.
-David H.

It's the first time I see a Flash fan-boy wearing his Adobe kneepads so proudly. What a talent! What an enthusiasm! What a dedication! But you are raising a good question. What did Flash provide to my Internet experience? Hmm, let me think a minute...
- Obnoxious ads that I can't easily filter out with animations I can't pause and music that doesn't stop?
- Crappy UIs with fixed-size screens that don't reflow, ugly little scrollbars and unnatural controls?
- Images I can't save, text I can't copy nor search, and pages I can't bookmark?
- Grainy videos on YouTube that I could never watch more than 10 minutes at a time until the iPhone finally let me appreciate them in clear MPEG-4?
- Er... there must be something else but it doesn't immediately come to mind. Oh yes: there was that beautiful photographer web site I saw 18 months ago. Too bad I can't remember the name, though.

And you? What did it bring to your Internet experience besides making good money at something you're good at?

Pierre
post #141 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by photobiker View Post

It's the first time I see a Flash fan-boy wearing his Adobe kneepads so proudly. What a talent! What an enthusiasm! What a dedication! But you are raising a good question. What did Flash provide to my Internet experience? Hmm, let me think a minute...
- Obnoxious ads that I can't easily filter out with animations I can't pause and music that doesn't stop?
- Crappy UIs with fixed-size screens that don't reflow, ugly little scrollbars and unnatural controls?
- Images I can't save, text I can't copy nor search, and pages I can't bookmark?
- Grainy videos on YouTube that I could never watch more than 10 minutes at a time until the iPhone finally let me appreciate them in clear MPEG-4?
- Er... there must be something else but it doesn't immediately come to mind. Oh yes: there was that beautiful photographer web site I saw 18 months ago. Too bad I can't remember the name, though.

And you? What did it bring to your Internet experience besides making good money at something you're good at?

Pierre

Pierre, Thanks. Here try these tips:

-use Flash Block so you can't see Flash if you don't want it. (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/433)

-Sorry but if you think Flash provides crappy UIs, you are just flat wrong. I suggest the website http://www.thefwa.com to educate yourself. I'm not sure if you've ever made a website... If you have please consider trying to make any of the sites on there using even the most current Ajax design strategies.

-You should try and use the print screen button if you want to save those images, and a lot of websites don't want you to download their copyrighted images anyway. Text in Flash can be rendered as html and thus be selectable, copiable and searchable. Again Flash allows the developer more control to provide the content that they want. Bookmarks anchors can be coded into Flash movies at any point, but you wouldn't know this because I'm guessing you don't really know anything at all about web technologies?

-YouTube movies on the iPhone are just as grainy as their Flash versions. In fact, they are probably worse because google converted a lot of them to the h.264 codec from the flv format they were in before. Also, YouTube wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for the Flash technology, so how about that BJ?

-Wish I knew the site you were talking about, but you remembered it even if you don't recall the name right? Must have been a good user experience.

For me personally I really like the stock charts on google finance among many other things, and being able to make a living isn't so bad either.

I hope this cleared some of your questions up! And plus thanks for proving me right:

(on my first post)

"All the detractors of Flash that are out there are either just totally oblivious leaches of the modern technological era that have no technical background (probably most of digg’s audience), jealous of the technology, those who know how to use it, or those own the rights to it (Stubborn developers, Steve Jobs), or just not really thinking about how ill-advised their moronic Flash-bashing really is."

I guess some people can be more than one of those at the same time...

-David H.
post #142 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

One of the reasons why Flash for the iPhone may be difficult, is that despite all the power, and memory of the iPhone, there is much more going on that is using that power. It's certainly possible that not enough horsepower is left over to run Flashat this time. Possibly, another upgraded machine will have enough power, and battery life, and then, things may change.

I don't think he meant an insult. It reads to me that he is saying just what he did. That you sound qualified to write such an app, and that the $99 barrier is low enough for you to give it a try.

Good call melgross! On re-reading that line I realized he was referring to the SDK. Not a bad idea actually, sorry abster!

-David H.
post #143 of 161
Quote:
One of the reasons why Flash for the iPhone may be difficult, is that despite all the power, and memory of the iPhone, there is much more going on that is using that power. It's certainly possible that not enough horsepower is left over to run Flash—at this time. Possibly, another upgraded machine will have enough power, and battery life, and then, things may change.

So do you feel hardware needs to adapt to flash? Instead of Adobe working to improve flash hardware performance?
post #144 of 161
Translation, it's a hardware issue. Apple needs to work a little magic and create a more powerful phone that doesn't harm battery life or explode and kill the user and the user's family.

Start praying folks.
post #145 of 161
Is it out of the question for Adobe to create a chip that would allow Flash to be hardware accelerated to add performance and lessen the battery usage?
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post #146 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by DjacK View Post

I hope this cleared some of your questions up! And plus thanks for proving me right:

(on my first post)

"All the detractors of Flash that are out there are either just totally oblivious leaches of the modern technological era that have no technical background (probably most of diggs audience), jealous of the technology, those who know how to use it, or those own the rights to it (Stubborn developers, Steve Jobs), or just not really thinking about how ill-advised their moronic Flash-bashing really is."

I guess some people can be more than one of those at the same time...

-David H.

Talk about name calling...

A few lookups on my handle and then on my name would have quickly shown you that I have contributed more code and more standards recommendations than you can imagine. And that you probably ever will.

The fact and the matter is your response shows that you are using right now some of the code I wrote and some of the specs I pushed for. The Gecko layout engine at the heart of Firefox compiled, ran and finally rendered correctly on Macintosh for the first time ever... on my machine.

What have _you_ done to make the web a better place?

Pierre
post #147 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Is it out of the question for Adobe to create a chip that would allow Flash to be hardware accelerated to add performance and lessen the battery usage?


You realize the entire justification for creating a chip to accelerate something is to raise the rate of which you consume electrons, making the software you are accelerating run faster?

As a real world example: over 17 years of 3-D acceleration cards and about a dozen software API's, those have evolved and when operating full bore eat up juice 2-3 times faster than the CPUs they are slaved to.

Flash has been architected without concern for power management since before Macromedia bought it. No faults there, there wasn't any large motivation to do it any other way. Making a change to that is BIG. Making a change to that that still runs legacy Flash code properly is BiG^BIG hard. If the task is too big then the default response in the tech industry has been to wait for hardware to catch up. In this case Flash would need to wait on battery technology to deliver enough power that Flash is allowed to run as it want's to.

Either way, Adobe bears the responsibility for the decisions.
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post #148 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by DjacK View Post

Good call melgross! On re-reading that line I realized he was referring to the SDK. Not a bad idea actually, sorry abster!

-David H.

Your apology accepted. Provided of course that you share part of the royalties with me.

And thank you Melgross for your support; you were right, but boy, I hate to admit it.

And David, having over 40 years in the healthcare, medical sciences and now computer sciences for the last 20, I have learned that a lot of my most successful developments were the consequences of somebody saying that it couldn't be done. At the same time, a lot of my demises were equally achieved for the same reason.

However, in all cases (particularly in the later years) recognizing that there were at least 3 sides to a story, understanding or attempting to appreciate the originators' perspective was paramount in succeeding. Jobs, in this endeavor has based his position based on test every aspect of one hefty, $200 million, expenditure. Last thing he wants is applications that would slow, impede or reduce the primary functionality of his baby. Remember, that a lot of people, pundits included, were very skeptical of Jobs at the beginning for even thinking about venturing in the mobile cell world. In this context, I would suggest that if one were successful in getting a Flash-type model functioning on the iPhone without compromise, he would be the first to congratulate them.

My apologies for the lecture. Force of habit and old age. As I often say to my son, senility is God's way of letting us get back to our children.

Bon chance.
post #149 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

So do you feel hardware needs to adapt to flash? Instead of Adobe working to improve flash hardware performance?

No, not exactly. What I'm saying is that Flash was never designed for these kinds of devices, and even though there are apparently some using a version of it, the iPhone is so much more complex, that perhaps it can't.

But, as the iPhone becomes loaded with a more powerful processor, it might be able to.

Also, think on this, there some functions that simply can't always be re-written, so that devices not designed to run them, can run them.

When the iPhone is running a movie, that's about all it's doing. But, when it is running Flash based web applets, it's doing other things as well. It could even be running several at once. Apple had to prioritize, and we see where they did that.

You would never say that Apple doesn't make its machines faster, so that it can better run software, or even run software that it couldn't run earlier.

Of course, it's always possible that Apple will never enable Flash, even if Adobe is able to have a compatible version. We won't know that until it happens, if it does.
post #150 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by DjacK View Post

I also have a message for all of you Ajax fans; your applications are clunky, look boring, and take three times the amount of time and effort to code for the ever changing landscape of browsers.

Flash is the best thing that has ever happened to the Internet thus far! Flash can do what browsers should have been able to do in the first place!

I think the last part is a good enough summary as to why Flash needs to stay. Until standard web programming allows you to do what Flash allows you to do, it will always be inferior. Sure it has some advantages like the search engines and being able to specify URLs but there are more annoying issues with it.

AJAX etc still have the problem where you always need to check how your website looks in a variety of browsers. You always have to put all sorts of stupid browser checks in and hack CSS so IE doesn't render stuff incorrectly or worse crash. By the time you put all that stuff in, you are writing more code than you would with Flash and also wasting time trying to figure out where all the quirks are coming from.

Animations just look terrible and can flicker/stutter/ with AJAX. This doesn't happen with Flash and the animations can be vastly more complex.

If Flash was more open and not so dependent on one company, I'd be quite happy to have Flash and PHP and to hell with the rest of the stuff. This would be a huge hit with designers because with the 'advancement' of CSS, designers are almost forced to become coders and they don't like it one bit. If the designers I work with could pass me a flash file and I could just start adding actionscript to it and know that it would work cross platform, it cuts down the amount of time I waste by an enormous amount.

No more slicing images individually into either gif or png and trying to work around the fact IE doesn't support transparent PNGs and that you have to premultiply animated gifs with their background to prevent rough edges. No more having to float blocks around all over the place and make sure to clear them at the right times and make sure to close the divs so IE doesn't crash. No more 1000+ line CSS files and not noticing you gave a dynamic PHP element the same ID as a static one. No more padding out every piece of text and adding margins to blocks of content.

The list goes on. Even with all that headache, it's still not capable of achieving what Flash can. As DjacK says, Flash is what browsers should have been able to do in the first place. Right now, standard web programming is more difficult IMO and less functional.
post #151 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

No more slicing images individually into either gif or png and trying to work around the fact IE doesn't support transparent PNGs and that you have to premultiply animated gifs with their background to prevent rough edges. No more having to float blocks around all over the place and make sure to clear them at the right times and make sure to close the divs so IE doesn't crash. No more 1000+ line CSS files and not noticing you gave a dynamic PHP element the same ID as a static one. No more padding out every piece of text and adding margins to blocks of content.

Or you could not bother bending over backwards to support a non-standard-supporting web browser and suggest to your users that they use something that supports standards better like Safari. If everyone did that, you'd see the IE usage figures plummet, but as it stands people are too afraid of alienating IE users.
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post #152 of 161
The web should be OPEN, not proprietary. Apple recognizes this. Maybe if Adobe open-sourced Flash, there'd be more interest. Otherwise, I don't think it's ever going to happen. And that's just fine with me. As the web becomes increasingly mobile, developers will have no choice but to move away from Flash to open standards.

And, frankly, show me one Flash site that isn't bloated, slow, and, in the end, a waste of time. Sure, all of that nifty interactivity is cool, but none of the sites I care about - news, banking, travel, Amazon, weather, etc. - reply upon Flash. Flash is all about eye candy, not substance. And, given the iPhone's huge share of the mobile web, I imagine sites that do employ Flash, ie: MySpace, will move away from it.

Proprietary isn't good for anyone, no matter how cool it appears.
post #153 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by photobiker View Post

Talk about name calling...

A few lookups on my handle and then on my name would have quickly shown you that I have contributed more code and more standards recommendations than you can imagine. And that you probably ever will.

The fact and the matter is your response shows that you are using right now some of the code I wrote and some of the specs I pushed for. The Gecko layout engine at the heart of Firefox compiled, ran and finally rendered correctly on Macintosh for the first time ever... on my machine.

What have _you_ done to make the web a better place?

Pierre

You're right, being part of a web development team for firefox apparently means that you can make retarded statements about a web technology. I would expect anyone who has a solid grasp on web development to understand and appreciate the great advances brought by the Flash plug-in, at least to acknowledge it. But quite frankly a bunch of people who seem to consider themselves experts (you), have no problem railing a technology with the most stupid arguments.

My initial guess was that you were just plain misinformed, but I guess you have clarified that you are a well qualified and still completely wrong.

-David H.
post #154 of 161
Can we quit bickering as to whether or not Flash has a proper place on the web? It most certainly does, and can compete with completely open standards in the marketplace. Let the devs vote with their tools budgets, that's where the fight belongs.

Let's just get down to asking Adobe to f^(%*ing fix it so it doesn't push unnecessary CPU cycles?

The memory footprint isn't that bad, but the inefficient desktop-centric run model is a big ball and chain right now.
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post #155 of 161
I've been a Flash developer for about 10 years now, so my opinions are bias towards Adobe and Flash. Flash is the future of the web. And if Apple wants to make the iPhone support viewing of the web in all its glory, they need to work with Adobe to create a version of the Flash Player that supports the iPhone. The best websites in the world are built with Flash. Someone please tell me how you can create websites like these http://www.thefwa.com/ without Flash. With HTML? With AJAX? With Javascript? Please, I don't think so! Flash IS the future of the web and Apple needs to get on the bandwagon.
post #156 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by flasher View Post

I've been a Flash developer for about 10 years now, so my opinions are bias towards Adobe and Flash. Flash is the future of the web. And if Apple wants to make the iPhone support viewing of the web in all its glory, they need to work with Adobe to create a version of the Flash Player that supports the iPhone. The best websites in the world are built with Flash. Someone please tell me how you can create websites like these http://www.thefwa.com/ without Flash. With HTML? With AJAX? With Javascript? Please, I don't think so! Flash IS the future of the web and Apple needs to get on the bandwagon.

That may be one of the best examples of Flash in a website, but that doesn't make it the best website. That site stands out among most Flash sites in that you can tab throughout the page contents and hit enter to execute. Rarely do i come across a Flash that is that slick.

But you are correct, Adobe and Apple need to work together. But Adobe really needs a better mobile version of Flash and a more optimized desktop version for OS X. I can't imagine that an iPhone version could come before these other issues are worked out.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #157 of 161
i'm on a T1 line at work, and that website took a looooong time to load the "flash"
how about this, try flash on a desktop with similar processor speed of the iphone.....hmmm
flash hardly works on my g3 strawberry, i wish i could go back to flash 7. is or is not flash a processor hog? i think macworld did a full review of flash, aren't their better methods....i think so
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post #158 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

i'm on a T1 line at work

Remember when a T1 was fast AND ridiculously expensive?
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #159 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by flasher View Post

Someone please tell me how you can create websites like these http://www.thefwa.com/ without Flash.

That website represents everything that is so hateful about designing a website entirely out of flash. On a high-res screen, all the text is ridiculously tiny and there's no way for the user to control its size. It is a seriously dreadful website.
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post #160 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by flasher View Post

I've been a Flash developer for about 10 years now, so my opinions are bias towards Adobe and Flash. Flash is the future of the web. And if Apple wants to make the iPhone support viewing of the web in all its glory, they need to work with Adobe to create a version of the Flash Player that supports the iPhone. The best websites in the world are built with Flash. Someone please tell me how you can create websites like these http://www.thefwa.com/ without Flash. With HTML? With AJAX? With Javascript? Please, I don't think so! Flash IS the future of the web and Apple needs to get on the bandwagon.

Sweet another site I can't copy or bookmark the stuff I am interested in. Every time I land on the site it is always back to page 1. Nope, this reminds me why I don't like Flash. Yes the site looks good, but that is about as much depth as I get from the average Flash enabled site.

It is a bit more work designing a pure HTML site, but good design (both presentation and content) is work. It is easily doable, but you probably won't get all the wizzy effects, which don't necessarily add much value to the site.
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