Steve Jobs pans Flash on the iPhone - Page 4

Originally Posted by DjacK

Disclaimer: I like Asynchronous JavaScript and XML applications just fine, so don't think I'm hating on you dhtml folks specifically. Ajax is cool and credit should always be given where credit is deserved.


Why do you morons think that Microsoft has even launched Silverlight and Apple is specifically trying to downplay the importance of Flash?

OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE ITS AWESOME AND ITS NOT THEIRS!!!

-David H.

Originally Posted by DjacK

I've been waiting for an article like this to turn up to give us all a better view of the status of Flash support on the iPhone, info which has as of late been obscure at best. Just so you know, I have a CS degree and have been developing in the Flash environment for a number of years. I was pretty disappointed to learn of the lack of Flash support on the iPhone when it was first released, although I initially figured that it had more to do with QuickTime being a direct competitor than architectural limitations. Now that I actually own an iPhone, I really wish that this problem would be resolved.

Originally Posted by Abster2core

Having said all the you did Dave, would you accept that the lack of Flash on the iPhone up to now, is reasoned as explained in the AppleInsider article?

Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum

Flash is not the Internet!

Originally Posted by DjacK

For all of the complete douche-bags on this thread who want to claim Flash should be killed because of your irritation from Flash ads; Shut Up You Uninformed Bitches!
Why do you morons think that Microsoft has even launched Silverlight and Apple is specifically trying to downplay the importance of Flash?

Originally Posted by DjacK

Not entirely, although architectural limitations are surely an actual problem. From the way Jobs is positioning himself, trying to advise developers to move away from using the Flash tool entirely, I think it is pretty apparent that he is trying dictate the evolution of the internet to fit his agenda. The problem though is that i don't think that his iphone is the end all mobile internet device, although it seems to hold that title right now. Mobile devices are going to continually get more and more powerful, so architectural limitations are not going to be a lasting issue. I agree that there's plenty of Flash content out there that is fat and slow, but this is an argument against poor design rather than one against the tool itself.

To say that the future of the internet should be or will be confined to antiquated standards that are primary driven by text and static images is just plain near-sighted. The examples of real-time 3D rendering in Flash that I gave earlier are a much more accurate vision of the future to me. Users are not going to just settle for text and images when there is so much more capability available. Web based software is already taking a foot-hold, and when you have things as powerful as Flash, you will most likely see a migration from desktop based apps to fully online solutions. In fact you are already seeing this with Flash in terms of online desktops/OSes, where you basically can replace the need for a local operating system entirely. When the browser breaks away from just rendering html content to actually rendering all forms of media content as it does with Flash, and you couple this with an extremely powerful programming language such as Actionscript, the capabilities of the internet start to move closer and closer to that of an operating system on a local machine.

-David H.

Originally Posted by DjacK

Not entirely, although architectural limitations are surely an actual problem. From the way Jobs is positioning himself, trying to advise developers to move away from using the Flash tool entirely, I think it is pretty apparent that he is trying dictate the evolution of the internet to fit his agenda. The problem though is that i don't think that his iphone is the end all mobile internet device, although it seems to hold that title right now. Mobile devices are going to continually get more and more powerful, so architectural limitations are not going to be a lasting issue. I agree that there's plenty of Flash content out there that is fat and slow, but this is an argument against poor design rather than one against the tool itself.

To say that the future of the internet should be or will be confined to antiquated standards that are primary driven by text and static images is just plain near-sighted. The examples of real-time 3D rendering in Flash that I gave earlier are a much more accurate vision of the future to me. Users are not going to just settle for text and images when there is so much more capability available. Web based software is already taking a foot-hold, and when you have things as powerful as Flash, you will most likely see a migration from desktop based apps to fully online solutions. In fact you are already seeing this with Flash in terms of online desktops/OSes, where you basically can replace the need for a local operating system entirely. When the browser breaks away from just rendering html content to actually rendering all forms of media content as it does with Flash, and you couple this with an extremely powerful programming language such as Actionscript, the capabilities of the internet start to move closer and closer to that of an operating system on a local machine.

-David H.

Originally Posted by DjacK

Not entirely, although architectural limitations are surely an actual problem. From the way Jobs is positioning himself, trying to advise developers to move away from using the Flash tool entirely, I think it is pretty apparent that he is trying dictate the evolution of the internet to fit his agenda. The problem though is that i don't think that his iphone is the end all mobile internet device, although it seems to hold that title right now. Mobile devices are going to continually get more and more powerful, so architectural limitations are not going to be a lasting issue. I agree that there's plenty of Flash content out there that is fat and slow, but this is an argument against poor design rather than one against the tool itself.

To say that the future of the internet should be or will be confined to antiquated standards that are primary driven by text and static images is just plain near-sighted. The examples of real-time 3D rendering in Flash that I gave earlier are a much more accurate vision of the future to me. Users are not going to just settle for text and images when there is so much more capability available. Web based software is already taking a foot-hold, and when you have things as powerful as Flash, you will most likely see a migration from desktop based apps to fully online solutions. In fact you are already seeing this with Flash in terms of online desktops/OSes, where you basically can replace the need for a local operating system entirely. When the browser breaks away from just rendering html content to actually rendering all forms of media content as it does with Flash, and you couple this with an extremely powerful programming language such as Actionscript, the capabilities of the internet start to move closer and closer to that of an operating system on a local machine.

-David H.

Originally Posted by DjacK

Not entirely, although architectural limitations are surely an actual problem. From the way Jobs is positioning himself, trying to advise developers to move away from using the Flash tool entirely, I think it is pretty apparent that he is trying dictate the evolution of the internet to fit his agenda. The problem though is that i don't think that his iphone is the end all mobile internet device, although it seems to hold that title right now. Mobile devices are going to continually get more and more powerful, so architectural limitations are not going to be a lasting issue. I agree that there's plenty of Flash content out there that is fat and slow, but this is an argument against poor design rather than one against the tool itself.

To say that the future of the internet should be or will be confined to antiquated standards that are primary driven by text and static images is just plain near-sighted. The examples of real-time 3D rendering in Flash that I gave earlier are a much more accurate vision of the future to me. Users are not going to just settle for text and images when there is so much more capability available. Web based software is already taking a foot-hold, and when you have things as powerful as Flash, you will most likely see a migration from desktop based apps to fully online solutions. In fact you are already seeing this with Flash in terms of online desktops/OSes, where you basically can replace the need for a local operating system entirely. When the browser breaks away from just rendering html content to actually rendering all forms of media content as it does with Flash, and you couple this with an extremely powerful programming language such as Actionscript, the capabilities of the internet start to move closer and closer to that of an operating system on a local machine.

-David H.

Originally Posted by DjacK

Not entirely, although architectural limitations are surely an actual problem. From the way Jobs is positioning himself, trying to advise developers to move away from using the Flash tool entirely, I think it is pretty apparent that he is trying dictate the evolution of the internet to fit his agenda. The problem though is that i don't think that his iphone is the end all mobile internet device, although it seems to hold that title right now. Mobile devices are going to continually get more and more powerful, so architectural limitations are not going to be a lasting issue. I agree that there's plenty of Flash content out there that is fat and slow, but this is an argument against poor design rather than one against the tool itself.

To say that the future of the internet should be or will be confined to antiquated standards that are primary driven by text and static images is just plain near-sighted. The examples of real-time 3D rendering in Flash that I gave earlier are a much more accurate vision of the future to me. Users are not going to just settle for text and images when there is so much more capability available. Web based software is already taking a foot-hold, and when you have things as powerful as Flash, you will most likely see a migration from desktop based apps to fully online solutions. In fact you are already seeing this with Flash in terms of online desktops/OSes, where you basically can replace the need for a local operating system entirely. When the browser breaks away from just rendering html content to actually rendering all forms of media content as it does with Flash, and you couple this with an extremely powerful programming language such as Actionscript, the capabilities of the internet start to move closer and closer to that of an operating system on a local machine.

-David H.

Originally Posted by McDave

Yes, controlled by one company (Adobe) - hence Steve's issue.

McD

Originally Posted by Abster2core

David, I take exception to your conclusions. On the one hand, you admit that there are architectural limitations which are a problem and which to me suggests that Jobs is right.

I would think that Apple having spent nearly $200 million developing the iPhone that they would be in a better position to judge whether or not something is suitable for its product. On examination of actual statements from Jobs himself, I can't really find any that truly reflect any position that you have attributed to him.

My understanding, that based on what is available today, Flash does not suit the overall objective to fulfill Apple's iPhone strategy, i.e., to offer a mobile device that firstly works as it should, everytime and everywhere. If, in Apples testing, that current versions of Flash, for example, don't measure up, how can one argue. And as the article so comprehensively explains, Jobs is not dictating anything, but highly outlining means to ensure the viability of his product. Something that he has every right to do. Remember, the iPhone has only one chance to do it right. Otherwise, it will be faced with the wrath of a much larger industry just waiting for the calls to proclaim, "It looks pretty surfing the net, but I can't make a phone call."

But hey. Spend $99 and build a Flash app. You seem to be well qualified. And if you are successful, you will make a lot more money, rather than spending time dising on what Jobs said or may have said. Certainly after today's announcement, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that he has an evil underlying strategy to destroy the world.

Originally Posted by danigoldman

The question is whether Apple will look to SVG as an alternative for Flash. SVG is lightweight, open standard, and is already supported by Firefox, Opera, and Safari.

I've speculated about this on my blog. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Daniel
Opera Software

Originally Posted by DjacK

You're right about the current limitations being a good enough reason to leave out Flash support at present, but what about all of the other mobile devices that aren't any more powerful than the iPhone that can? Of course, the RISC based ARM processor is specifically weak in order to conserve battery power, but there are plenty of things that could (and probably should) be done to get around this. There are already "Flash block" programs out there which handle flash content and don't actually execute it unless you select the content. Even IE has their famous active content selection strategy (another agenda based anti-Flash move if you ask me).

I don't see how you can possibly claim that Flash shouldn't be part of Apple's iPhone strategy if they want to claim it provides access to the "real internet". In this case it would be more accurate to say "Access Apple's Personal Vision of the Internet".

I'm not sure you understand exactly what my main points are here. First of all, to point out exactly how great the Flash technology is for those who only see it as annoying advertisements, as well as give you a sense of it's role in the future of the internet. On top of this I find quite interesting the position which Apple is taking on this as well as Jobs' recommendations and downplaying to future developers in terms of Flash content. This is especially noteworthy in light of the fact that you have a direct competitor of Flash in Quicktime, and the strategic business aspects of this kind of decision.

In the end what we are talking about is a company limiting what type of content is available to the end consumer. I think that this issue, among others, is why a large number of commentators have "panned" the iPhone.

Lastly, I don't know what you are referring to with your $99 comment. I have a salary job with a major technology company, what are you trying to imply? Perhaps that you have a stereotypical view of Flash and Flash developers because you are one of the people I described in my original post? So you know, my office did roughly $2.5 billion in revenue last year and a lot, but not all, of our business collateral is in the form of Flash content. The reason you see those Flash ads all the time is because the tool itself is just that versatile and viable on today's internet and on a much larger scale than that of any capability that things like the iPhone add.

-David H.

p.s. My apologies for the strong-worded name calling in my original post.

Originally Posted by DjacK

Similarly, all of you who are nothing more than internet junkies should be getting in line to give a nice fat BJ to Flash for the many breakthroughs that it has provided your internet experience, as well as the numerous ones that are still to come.
-David H.

Originally Posted by photobiker

It's the first time I see a Flash fan-boy wearing his Adobe kneepads so proudly. What a talent! What an enthusiasm! What a dedication! But you are raising a good question. What did Flash provide to my Internet experience? Hmm, let me think a minute...
- Obnoxious ads that I can't easily filter out with animations I can't pause and music that doesn't stop?
- Crappy UIs with fixed-size screens that don't reflow, ugly little scrollbars and unnatural controls?
- Images I can't save, text I can't copy nor search, and pages I can't bookmark?
- Grainy videos on YouTube that I could never watch more than 10 minutes at a time until the iPhone finally let me appreciate them in clear MPEG-4?
- Er... there must be something else but it doesn't immediately come to mind. Oh yes: there was that beautiful photographer web site I saw 18 months ago. Too bad I can't remember the name, though.

And you? What did it bring to your Internet experience besides making good money at something you're good at?

Pierre

Originally Posted by melgross

One of the reasons why Flash for the iPhone may be difficult, is that despite all the power, and memory of the iPhone, there is much more going on that is using that power. It's certainly possible that not enough horsepower is left over to run Flashat this time. Possibly, another upgraded machine will have enough power, and battery life, and then, things may change.

I don't think he meant an insult. It reads to me that he is saying just what he did. That you sound qualified to write such an app, and that the $99 barrier is low enough for you to give it a try.

One of the reasons why Flash for the iPhone may be difficult, is that despite all the power, and memory of the iPhone, there is much more going on that is using that power. It's certainly possible that not enough horsepower is left over to run Flash—at this time. Possibly, another upgraded machine will have enough power, and battery life, and then, things may change.

Originally Posted by DjacK

I hope this cleared some of your questions up! And plus thanks for proving me right:

(on my first post)

"All the detractors of Flash that are out there are either just totally oblivious leaches of the modern technological era that have no technical background (probably most of diggs audience), jealous of the technology, those who know how to use it, or those own the rights to it (Stubborn developers, Steve Jobs), or just not really thinking about how ill-advised their moronic Flash-bashing really is."

I guess some people can be more than one of those at the same time...

-David H.

Originally Posted by solipsism

Is it out of the question for Adobe to create a chip that would allow Flash to be hardware accelerated to add performance and lessen the battery usage?

Originally Posted by DjacK

Good call melgross! On re-reading that line I realized he was referring to the SDK. Not a bad idea actually, sorry abster!

-David H.

Originally Posted by TenoBell

So do you feel hardware needs to adapt to flash? Instead of Adobe working to improve flash hardware performance?

Originally Posted by DjacK

I also have a message for all of you Ajax fans; your applications are clunky, look boring, and take three times the amount of time and effort to code for the ever changing landscape of browsers.

Flash is the best thing that has ever happened to the Internet thus far! Flash can do what browsers should have been able to do in the first place!

Originally Posted by Marvin

No more slicing images individually into either gif or png and trying to work around the fact IE doesn't support transparent PNGs and that you have to premultiply animated gifs with their background to prevent rough edges. No more having to float blocks around all over the place and make sure to clear them at the right times and make sure to close the divs so IE doesn't crash. No more 1000+ line CSS files and not noticing you gave a dynamic PHP element the same ID as a static one. No more padding out every piece of text and adding margins to blocks of content.

Originally Posted by photobiker

Talk about name calling...

A few lookups on my handle and then on my name would have quickly shown you that I have contributed more code and more standards recommendations than you can imagine. And that you probably ever will.

The fact and the matter is your response shows that you are using right now some of the code I wrote and some of the specs I pushed for. The Gecko layout engine at the heart of Firefox compiled, ran and finally rendered correctly on Macintosh for the first time ever... on my machine.

What have _you_ done to make the web a better place?

Pierre

Originally Posted by flasher

I've been a Flash developer for about 10 years now, so my opinions are bias towards Adobe and Flash. Flash is the future of the web. And if Apple wants to make the iPhone support viewing of the web in all its glory, they need to work with Adobe to create a version of the Flash Player that supports the iPhone. The best websites in the world are built with Flash. Someone please tell me how you can create websites like these http://www.thefwa.com/ without Flash. With HTML? With AJAX? With Javascript? Please, I don't think so! Flash IS the future of the web and Apple needs to get on the bandwagon.

Originally Posted by NOFEER

i'm on a T1 line at work

Originally Posted by flasher

Someone please tell me how you can create websites like these http://www.thefwa.com/ without Flash.

Originally Posted by flasher

I've been a Flash developer for about 10 years now, so my opinions are bias towards Adobe and Flash. Flash is the future of the web. And if Apple wants to make the iPhone support viewing of the web in all its glory, they need to work with Adobe to create a version of the Flash Player that supports the iPhone. The best websites in the world are built with Flash. Someone please tell me how you can create websites like these http://www.thefwa.com/ without Flash. With HTML? With AJAX? With Javascript? Please, I don't think so! Flash IS the future of the web and Apple needs to get on the bandwagon.