or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPhone › Steve Jobs pans Flash on the iPhone
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Steve Jobs pans Flash on the iPhone - Page 2

post #41 of 161
So how do other phones do flash in the internet?
post #42 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by <2cents View Post

Screw Flash. In fact, can someone recommend a good way to disable Flash in Safari?

Use SafariPlus -> http://web.mac.com/jrc/SafariPlus/

You'll be amazed at how fast web pages load when you block all Flash crap.
post #43 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal 9000 View Post

Apple needs to get Quicktime streaming to work on the iPhone. As of now, you canĀ“t see live video feeds. You should be able to see Macworld Expo live on the iPhone.

You really think that EDGE has the bandwidth for streaming?
post #44 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

While I understand the need of some to get their fill of battery sucking, animated ads on their iPhone, I must object to defining 'full internet experience' as obligatory support of proprietary extensions.
Last time I looked, Flash was not an open, internet standard and doesn't get to define what the 'full internet experience' is any more than ActiveX components did.

The most common reason people dislike Flash is because of the ads. Flash is a great tool and when used appropriately can deliver an unmatched quality of interactive content. But because advertisers and developers mostly ignore the 'appropriate' part, I think it makes sense to block it from the iPhone.

Yes, while I am a Flash developer, I believe that one should always choose the right tool for each particular job - and for iPhone, Flash isn't it. Therefore, to avoid a broken plug-in icon where your Flash is supposed to be, detect iPhone or 'no Flash' installed and offer alternate content. Sure, it is more effort, but since touch screen has no hover state, it isn't like your Flash apps would work in that environment anyway.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply
post #45 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

While I understand the need of some to get their fill of battery sucking, animated ads on their iPhone, I must object to defining 'full internet experience' as obligatory support of proprietary extensions.
Last time I looked, Flash was not an open, internet standard and doesn't get to define what the 'full internet experience' is any more than ActiveX components did.

STANDING OVATION!!!
post #46 of 161
Jobs does not allow someone else to define what is needed on the iPhone.
Remember the first NeXT didn't need more than 4 gray scales?

Flash 5 could be run on the archetype of the iPod Touch the Sony Clie introduced in 2004

http://handheld.softpedia.com/device...TH55-208.shtml
post #47 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

Use SafariPlus -> http://web.mac.com/jrc/SafariPlus/

You'll be amazed at how fast web pages load when you block all Flash crap.

Well to be fair, it isn't always Flash's fault. Because most ads are being delivered from a third party host, many times the slow down is simply due to latency in connecting to the remote server. The ads are crap, not Flash. It is really the developers who deserve the criticism. Flash is just a tool like a video camera is a tool. The content may offend you but it is not the fault of the tool.

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply

Life is too short to drink bad coffee.

Reply
post #48 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

This is not necessarily true.

Adobe Flash, like most modern desktop software, is a horribly bloated, convoluted, memory-leaking, CPU-hogging piece of crap.

I seem to recall having a 300 MHz G3 with 192 MiB of RAM (in 1999) that ran Macromedia Flash just fine. The iPhone's processor runs at 600 MHz and has 1 GiB of RAM.

What exactly has been added to flash since 1999, functionality wise? The only significant thing I can think of is H.264 support, and the iPhone is clearly capable of handling H.264.

So actually, Adobe really should focus on streamlining and optimising Flash. It is possible to make full-blooded Flash work on the iPhone, they'd just have to make the underlying architecture "not shit (TM)". Of course, this would benefit desktop users as well as iPhone users. I guess the problem is that Adobe would have to hire decent software programmers, and it seems like there's probably only 3 in the entire world.

It doesn't really matter if Adobe goes about changing the Flash plug. Streamlining it, etc. If the majority of pre-existing Flash content isn't updated to run on it, it won't work on the iPhone anyway.

And interface issues with touch screen as opposed to keyboard and mouse would make most interactive Flash content unusable regardless. Apple is so much better off just running away from this proprietary technology. HTML 5 is definitely the way to go.

Between Apple and Google moving away from Flash, I wouldn't be surprised if Flash disappears altogether in another five years. It's never going to run correctly on mobile devices, and mobile devices are where the future of the Internet is.
post #49 of 161
How do portable devices like the Nokia N810 Internet tablet and Archos 605 video player manage to run full Flash, videos and all?
post #50 of 161
Seriously, there is so much overlap and potential for synergy that apple should just buy Adobe. They have been competing for ages: aperture vs. lightroom, flash vs QT, etc. Apple needs more software engineers & designers who do exactly what Adobe engineers do. especially in the face of silverlight, apple and adobe should work together or merge to prevent microsoft further proprietizing the internet.
post #51 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by datasmid View Post

Jobs does not allow someone else to define what is needed on the iPhone.
Remember the first NeXT didn't need more than 4 gray scales?

Flash 5 could be run on the archetype of the iPod Touch the Sony Clie introduced in 2004

http://handheld.softpedia.com/device...TH55-208.shtml

That's great, but we're on Flash 9 now. There's a whole lot of bloat between 5 and 9. Plus, again, considering that most interactive Flash pieces are based on mouse and keyboard interaction, the majority of Flash content won't work on the iPhone, anyway. Even if it did work, technically, the user experience would be lacking at best.
post #52 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by allblue View Post

This article is an example of what AppleInsider does best - explaining technical matters in a way that non-techy people such as myself can understand. Good stuff!

Or from the "techy" point of view, they write things in a way that makes "techies" wonder if they have a clue what the heck they're talking about.
post #53 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

You really think that EDGE has the bandwidth for streaming?

Depends on what level of streaming. I look at YouTUBE content all the time on EDGE - no problem. So yes, it does.
post #54 of 161
And we can all rejoice on the no Flash in the near future.

Given a reasonable SDK, I've sure we'll see some form of lightweight Java application support (even if it's just a CDC runtime) in the not so distant future. Applets are probably less likely. Ideally, I'd like to see a nice J2ME CDC implementation which lets you develop apps that look and work just like any other iPhone/iPod touch app, but I'm sure that's a little further down the road.
post #55 of 161
This article is off the way of the mark in its Flash representation.

Many of the comments on this article are littered with made up, self serving and mis-informed dribble!

Flash is very useful for very many people on and off the browser! simple as that...let's not confuse the real issues here, Apple wants more of the application pie and does not want to share with anyone (Adobe, Sun, Microsoft,Google)

Please keep to the facts and understand the technologies your slating.
post #56 of 161
Sorry but Flash is not all about games and videos. My hospital has free WiFi throughout but to access it you must go through their homepage and agree to the terms of use. They use Flash on the page so the page will not display and there is no way to accept the terms of use, therefore no free WiFi!

I also ran into this in a local coffee house that uses Flash to display a few ads before letting you on to their free WiFi. It's probably how they pay the bill.
post #57 of 161
Flash works on the Chumby with a touchscreen.

Chumby specs....
3.5" LCD color touchscreen
350 MHz ARM processor
64 MB SDRAM
64 MB NAND flash ROM

I would think the iPhone should be able to do it.
post #58 of 161
Maybe Apple is using Microsoft's Silverlight as a bargaining chip against Adobe in lieu of Flash. In exchange for an iPhone build of Silverlight Microsoft opens up their Exchange client for enterprise.

Actually Apple probably wants it to be an all QuickTime world. If everything goes QuickTime then that would help not just the iPhone but AppleTV and future products.
post #59 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro View Post

Last word on the slightly OT apostrophe business:

..its' a wonder you're brain does' nt explode.

post #60 of 161
as a flash developer among other things, i could not give a monkeys is flash gets ported to iphone. good riddance. i loved macromedia. and i have hated adobe products since they ever existed, utter illogical rubbish UI and sluggish developers. i hope they naff off.

The future of the web is non proprietary. and please dont tell me apple is the worst offender of proprietary tech, as u will just look bloody stupid . (to me anyway)
post #61 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by flynifr View Post

Sorry but Flash is not all about games and videos. My hospital has free WiFi throughout but to access it you must go through their homepage and agree to the terms of use. They use Flash on the page so the page will not display and there is no way to accept the terms of use, therefore no free WiFi!

I also ran into this in a local coffee house that uses Flash to display a few ads before letting you on to their free WiFi. It's probably how they pay the bill.

Adobe's store has to be about the worst implementation of Flash imaginable.
post #62 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H

The iPhone's processor runs at 600 MHz and has 1 GiB of RAM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alvinguzman View Post

If you use 'SysInfo' on jailbroken phones you can see that the following stats:

Phys. Memory 116 MB
CPU 412 mhz
Bus 103.00 mhz

Thanks for the heads-up, my bad on the iPhone CPU and RAM specs. I was going by my recollection of this article abstract, which has either been modified since I read it (512 MB changed to 512 Mb, to make a total of 128 MiB RAM, which would tally with your reported 116 MiB assuming 12 MiB is reserved for alternative uses), or my recollection of said article was incorrect (although, I distinctly remember thinking at the time "the iPhone has 1 GiB of RAM? Holy Cow!").

Also, I believe that the CPU is capable of clocking up to 600 MHz but goes slower to conserve battery life.

Anyway, the overall story isn't changed too much by my erroneous overstating of the iPhone's capabilities. I'm confident that there's enough bloat in Flash that could be optimised out such that the full version would run happily on the iPhone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjoec123 View Post

It doesn't really matter if Adobe goes about changing the Flash plug. Streamlining it, etc. If the majority of pre-existing Flash content isn't updated to run on it, it won't work on the iPhone anyway.

I'm not talking about streamlining the standard so that Flash animations, apps etc. have to be re-written. I'm talking about Adobe streamlining the Flash runtime so that it does not leak memory all over the place and chew up CPU cycles for no reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allblue View Post

Much as I respect your effort, I'm not sure your sig is quite right. 'It has' becomes the possessive pronoun spelt 'its' i.e 'belonging to it' doesn't it?

No. You are confused. S10 provided a good example for you:
Quote:
Originally Posted by S10 View Post

It has been raining

This does not mean "the rain belongs to it", and can correctly be contracted as: "it's been raining".
it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
Reply
it's = it is / it has, its = belonging to it.
Reply
post #63 of 161
Yes flash can work on the iPhone. That is not the issue. There are two issues One issue is about the amount of system resources flash uses. On a device that needs to use its resources efficiently. Adobe could have remedied this by now but has not.

The other issue is about Apple supporting open web standards. Flash is not an open web standard. Quicktime uses open standards but Quicktime is not required to use open standards.
post #64 of 161
i have to say, this is a very good article. It makes me think twice about wanting flash on iphone. ThX
post #65 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

... and let's not forget the complications that arise when names ending with 's' get possessive and plural possessive... I never remember how to do this ... is it 'Jobs' new black shirt' and 'Jobs's new black shirts'? Or am I totally lost here? What about the entire Jobs family? 'All the Jobs's new black shirts'. Is that right? If you tell me I shan't get it wrong again. Or is that sha'n't? \

For a single individual whose name ends in s, the style can vary as long as it's consistent. My favorite way of deciding is to remember that the added "s" after the apostrophe is *always* pronounced. So, if you say "Jobs shirt," you spell it "Jobs' shirt." If you say "Jobsez shirt," you spell it "Jobs's shirt."

My company's in-house style is to add the s (Jobs's), UNLESS the name is one of the standard Greek or biblical exceptions ("Moses' ark" "Socrates' hemlock" "Jesus' name." etc.) Fun stuff.

Plural possessives always end in the apostrope. "All the Jobses' shirts" "All the Smiths' shirts." etc. "All the Jobs's shirts" is definitely wrong. (Sorry.)
post #66 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feste View Post

For a single individual whose name ends in s, the style can vary as long as it's consistent. My favorite way of deciding is to remember that the added "s" after the apostrophe is *always* pronounced. So, if you say "Jobs shirt," you spell it "Jobs' shirt." If you say "Jobsez shirt," you spell it "Jobs's shirt."

My company's in-house style is to add the s (Jobs's), UNLESS the name is one of the standard Greek or biblical exceptions ("Moses' ark" "Socrates' hemlock" "Jesus' name." etc.) Fun stuff.

Plural possessives always end in the apostrope. "All the Jobses' shirts" "All the Smiths' shirts." etc. "All the Jobs's shirts" is definitely wrong. (Sorry.)

Actually, good writing (as opposed to merely "correct" writing) would suggest writing it as "the shirts belonging to Steve Jobs."

post #67 of 161
you should find another pastime than correcting people's spelling mistakes. no offense, but come on! it's a mac forum not an english lesson.

i could tell u many things you have no clue about, but they have nothing to do with the mac so i wont bore you or anyone else.

Just got back from india and I'm feeling incredibly sick so my apologies if i come across as moody. But the literate elite have always got on my tits.
post #68 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by death_dealer View Post

The author is misinformed or misleading his readers, and Steve Jobs may not be stupid, but he is lying through his teeth about Adobe Flash Player.

If anyone does even a few minutes of research, they would find a host of ARM devices that are running full desktop implementations of Flash just fine, and with a touchscreen. The Archos 605 Wifi is just one example, the Chumby is another. Archos is running full desktop player version 7 on their device and Chumby runs Flash Lite. Both devices have touchscreens, slower processors, and less RAM. But somehow they can MAGICALLY play back Flash animations smoothly. The Archos can view YouTube, MySpace and other Flash sites without problem and neither Adobe or Archos had to jump through technical hoops to make this work. The player isn't "too bloated", or a "cpu and memory hog" like many misonformed people seem to think...it runs perfectly smooth on these devices. You can define all the "standards" you want, but the fact is, a huge portion of the web is now based on Flash and web developers aren't running for AJAX or any of the other alternatives any time soon....

So what is Apple's problem with using Flash on iPhone?

The REAL reason that Flash isn't on iPhone is because Apple wants to control the application stack on the iPhone....it has nothing to do with the bullcrap reasons that Steve Jobs or the author give.


Lying?

Really?

Any of those named pushing a cell signal with their battery?

Stop lying to us.
post #69 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

This is not necessarily true.

Adobe Flash, like most modern desktop software, is a horribly bloated, convoluted, memory-leaking, CPU-hogging piece of crap.

I seem to recall having a 300 MHz G3 with 192 MiB of RAM (in 1999) that ran Macromedia Flash just fine. The iPhone's processor runs at 600 MHz and has 1 GiB of RAM.

What exactly has been added to flash since 1999, functionality wise? The only significant thing I can think of is H.264 support, and the iPhone is clearly capable of handling H.264.

So actually, Adobe really should focus on streamlining and optimising Flash. It is possible to make full-blooded Flash work on the iPhone, they'd just have to make the underlying architecture "not shit (TM)". Of course, this would benefit desktop users as well as iPhone users. I guess the problem is that Adobe would have to hire decent software programmers, and it seems like there's probably only 3 in the entire world.

You're oversimplifying. The problem goes beyond waste management.
post #70 of 161
>Any of those named pushing a cell signal with their battery?
Well Nokia are.

flashlite 3 is flash8 / as2 (if you try publishing flashlite3 content from cs3 and choose "info" it tells you so).

nokia n95-2 runs flashlite 3 with 16mb of ram available to the player - so why can't iphone?

this means flashlite3 applications that run from a mobile phone and download/play/stream videos and audio are easily doable (I know because I just built one).

I don't particularly want full latest flash in safari on iphone - but I do at least expect adobe' latest mobile flash - flashlite 3 - on iphone - where my finger is the mouse equivalent - before I buy one.

ade.
post #71 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by <2cents View Post

Screw Flash. In fact, can someone recommend a good way to disable Flash in Safari?

Computer/Library/Internet Plug-ins/Remove the Flash named plug-ins or put them in the "Disabled Plug-ins" folder
post #72 of 161
If I can't watch Homestar Runner, I'm not getting the Full Internet Experience (TM).

Sure, quicktime is better for video...but what is the substitute for web animation, particularly interactive stuff? I'll admit I know practically nothing about the subject, is there an open standards thing that can do animation with interaction at the same level as flash?

Personally, I'm skeptical that flash is inherently unusable on low power devices, especially since people have pointed out that other mobile units are able to do it.
post #73 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feste View Post

For a single individual whose name ends in s, the style can vary as long as it's consistent. My favorite way of deciding is to remember that the added "s" after the apostrophe is *always* pronounced. So, if you say "Jobs shirt," you spell it "Jobs' shirt." If you say "Jobsez shirt," you spell it "Jobs's shirt."

My company's in-house style is to add the s (Jobs's), UNLESS the name is one of the standard Greek or biblical exceptions ("Moses' ark" "Socrates' hemlock" "Jesus' name." etc.) Fun stuff.

Plural possessives always end in the apostrope. "All the Jobses' shirts" "All the Smiths' shirts." etc. "All the Jobs's shirts" is definitely wrong. (Sorry.)

Actually, your company's in-house style for proper names and traditional exceptions is as ruled in "The Chicago Manual of Style," a style guide for American English published by the University of Chicago Press. Following this manual (its a big one), one can't go wrong. Certainly, no editor, author or copy writer would argue its rulings.
post #74 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by death_dealer View Post

The author is misinformed or misleading his readers, and Steve Jobs may not be stupid, but he is lying through his teeth about Adobe Flash Player.

Let's see. This article written by Prince McLean, aka Daniel Eran Dilger, or your flash in the pan counter? Until you credential yourself and/or backup your contentions, my leaning is towards the former.

Sorry, but I also take exception to an unsupported claim of "lying."
post #75 of 161
Uh, when is it exactly up to Apple to ship a proprietary plug-in from another developer? There's a lot of licensing issues. Adobe is the only company that can release a Flash plug-in for a browser. Given the fact that the iPhone (up to this point) has been closed to third-party development. There's no way Adobe could even build a version of Flash for Mobile OS X/Safari.

Secondly, Apple has made it clear that they support open standards. Some of these "Apple wants to control everything" comments are just ludicrous. It seems to me that they're attempting to push web standards. One of the most effective ways to do that is to remove the use of any proprietary technology. Neither Flash nor Java are open standards. HTML, JavaScript, CSS, H264, these are open. Also I argue that any mobile device that uses some form of "Java Lite" or "Flash Lite" are also NOT the so-called "real" internet as neither of those implementations are capable of running applications targeted at the full desktop versions. So really, what's the point?
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
Reply
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
Reply
post #76 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Let's see. This article written by Prince McLean, aka Daniel Eran Dilger, or your flash in the pan counter? Until you credential yourself and/or backup your contentions, my leaning is to the former.

Sorry, but I also take exception to an unsupported claim of "lying."

That word is used constantly by people who know nothing, and love to do whatever they can to discredit someone is in a powerful position.

I remember arguing with someone on another site about the 3 GHz problem, years ago.

Even though he finally admitted that Jobs would have been given word from IBM that 3 GHz would be available by the time stated, this guy insisted that when someone says something that turns out, through no fault of their own, to be wrong, he lied.

There is just no logic to what some people say if they WANT to believe it. It's making this guy happy to think that Jobs has lied, so he will continue to think it.
post #77 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

If I can't watch Homestar Runner, I'm not getting the Full Internet Experience (TM).

Sure, quicktime is better for video...but what is the substitute for web animation, particularly interactive stuff? I'll admit I know practically nothing about the subject, is there an open standards thing that can do animation with interaction at the same level as flash?

SVG is an open standard for scalable vector graphics with animation and interaction. It has about the same feature setas Flash. It doesn't, however, have nearly the same reach in terms of development tools or browser plugins. (Firefox and Safari support SVG - as long as it doesn't include animations or interactivity. Adobe used to have a plug-in, but they've stopped supporting it).

There is a proper subset of SVG defined specifically for mobile devices.
post #78 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

What's with the modern obsession of putting an apostrophe before any letter "s" that appears at the end of a word? The man's name is "Jobs".

Glad to see my type has brought so much enjoyment
post #79 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booga View Post

Although Flash ads are probably the most common flash I see on a daily basis, the only ones I ever interact with are the games on Facebook. I always have a few Scrabulous games going, and not being able to play on my iPod Touch is annoying. I understand there's a more official Scrabble game coming out for the iPhone/Touch, but if it doesn't play against Scrabulous users it's close to useless for me.

Scrabulous is the only reason I'd want Flash on Mobile OS X, but for a slowly rendered pages and fast drain of the battery it isn't worth it. Perhaps they will make a non-Flash version if they can get past this lawsuit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

What's with the modern obsession of putting an apostrophe before any letter "s" that appears at the end of a word? The man's name is "Jobs".

You are officially the apostrophe Nazi. I don't recall reading any other petepeeves from you other than the apostrophe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by libmanj View Post

When it all comes down to it, the iPhone does not provide the "full internet" as promised, and what keeps it from doing so is the absence of Flash.

So then the iPhone should offer every plugin to be considered full? How about IE on the iPhone since most pages are still designed to render them best. Oh, and lets not forget adding ActiveX to that list of needs to make MobileSafari a "full internet" browser.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #80 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhayman View Post

SVG is an open standard for scalable vector graphics with animation and interaction. It has about the same feature setas Flash. It doesn't, however, have nearly the same reach in terms of development tools or browser plugins. (Firefox and Safari support SVG - as long as it doesn't include animations or interactivity. Adobe used to have a plug-in, but they've stopped supporting it).

There is a proper subset of SVG defined specifically for mobile devices.

So it sounds like that's not a real substitute, is there anything open standards and cross-platform that can handle animation and interactive stuff like flash can?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: iPhone
AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPhone › Steve Jobs pans Flash on the iPhone