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Sun plans Java for iPhone, iPod touch - Page 2

post #41 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Don't forget that Java is not entirely absent from the iPhone/iTouch right now. Javascript is not "Java", but then, it's not "not" Java either, if you know what I mean.



No, I don't know what you mean. Other than both sharing 4 letters in their name, and some superficial syntactic resemblance, Java and Javascript have nothing in common.
post #42 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by suhail View Post

Did anyone realize that the iPhone SDK runs only on Intel Macs??

OMG. Did anyone realize that Apple is not supporting ancient technology for developers who probably have all upgraded by now? Let's all bash Apple for forgetting this trivial detail.
post #43 of 86
Quote:
On the desktop and laptop, I still believe Flash is good and important. Mobile, not sure about that.
As for Java, will it please frickin' die already !!! DIE!!! Bloated piece of garbage. Always has been.

Well, in a few words you've proven you know nothing about programming. Go back to your crappy flash-based web design and leave the technical discussion to the professionals. Thanx.
post #44 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by suhail View Post

Did anyone realize that the iPhone SDK runs only on Intel Macs??

You'd think that wouldn't you...



Amorya
post #45 of 86
.....
post #46 of 86
The version of Java that Sun wants to implement on the iPhone is J2ME (Java 2 Micro Edition), which is designed for embedded devices, which lack the memory and processing power of a desktop computer.

From what I understand memory management is different in this version, so you have to be very careful with the number of objects you create a destroy. This is something that programmers will have to watch out for. Additionally not all the APIs available to the desktop/server version will be available for the J2ME version.

Wikipedia page on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J2ME

Badly written programs are bad in any language, it is just some languages attract more bad programmers.
post #47 of 86
I hope this ends up being a nice CDC Personal Profile implementation and not just more CLDC/MIDP like we see on most other phones. With that and an app similar to Apple's Jar Bundler for the iPhone, we could see some really nice Java apps on the iPhone.
post #48 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by ravelgrane View Post

OMG. Did anyone realize that Apple is not supporting ancient technology for developers who probably have all upgraded by now? Let's all bash Apple for forgetting this trivial detail.

Intel Macs were first introduced in 2006, and Intel MacPros were introduced in Aug '06. Merely 1.5 years ago.
Hardly "ancient technology" wouldn't you say.
post #49 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

.....

Good one. I totally agree.
post #50 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by suhail View Post

Intel Macs were first introduced in 2006, and Intel MacPros were introduced in Aug '06. Merely 1.5 years ago.
Hardly "ancient technology" wouldn't you say.

Well, to the Mac world, the PPC machines are dead and gone for most purposes. Right now, there are more Intel machines in the wild than PPC models, and the truth is that if you have only PPC machines, you can't develop for the newer models in any effective way.

If someone wants to consider themselves to be a *developer*, rather than a hobbyist, an Intel machine is a must. Developers can't have an effective business if they just develop for a continually shrinking market. The problem with a large portion of the PPC market is that many of those people don't buy new software anymore, so the market is even smaller than the numbers suggest.

And as Apple is rightly attempting to move people to the newer, viable platform, you shouldn't be surprised that new developer tools won't work on the now, obsolete generations. Many developers don't even bother to keep the PPC versions of their programs (for those who do have PPC versions) current.
post #51 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

How will you know?

Apple has no reason to promote Java on the iPhone. Like every other 3rd party application, the JVM would be user downloadable and not an item that would automatically be installed.

Apple showed what applications, including awesome games, could be created with the SDK. What does Java bring to the iPhone that the SDK doesn't already address? Answer: Nothing
post #52 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTel View Post

Apple has no reason to promote Java on the iPhone. Like every other 3rd party application, the JVM would be user downloadable and not an item that would automatically be installed.

Apple showed what applications, including awesome games, could be created with the SDK. What does Java bring to the iPhone that the SDK doesn't already address? Answer: Nothing

Except compatibility, as with Flash.
post #53 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Except compatibility, as with Flash.


Well, the compatibility argument will not help Java. I can't even remember the last time I visited a site that had Java - and when it did - I was like "oh fuck - not java"

No Java is not going to stop people from buying an iPhone - same with flash.
post #54 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by the cool gut View Post

Well, the compatibility argument will not help Java. I can't even remember the last time I visited a site that had Java - and when it did - I was like "oh fuck - not java"

No Java is not going to stop people from buying an iPhone - same with flash.

I didn't say that it would stop (most) people from buying a phone.

But, other than some people who always seem to hate some slightly, occasionally annoying aspect of both, the majority don't seem to have a problem with it. I don't, even though there are a few ads, and such that are annoying. I fugure it's like anything else.

Besides, ban Java and Flash (and now perhaps Silverlight), and something else will spring up to take their place.

It's naive to believe that if both were to go away, the problems you sometimes experience will also go away. Programmers will come up with other, potentially, more problematic, ways to do the same thing, except that it may be worse.
post #55 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTel View Post

Apple has no reason to promote Java on the iPhone. Like every other 3rd party application, the JVM would be user downloadable and not an item that would automatically be installed.

Apple showed what applications, including awesome games, could be created with the SDK. What does Java bring to the iPhone that the SDK doesn't already address? Answer: Nothing

I am curious how Sun (stock ticket JAVA, btw) intends to push this out.
If the JVM is pushed out as a stand alone app or installation, Apple has to approve it. Will they?
Also, that model implies that subsequent apps that use the JVM would have to somehow communicate with the JVM. From what I'm seeing of the SDK, apps won't be allowed to cross-communicate (outside of strict confines.)
The other option seems to be to build the JVM into every app. That sounds like a 'winner'.
What are the other options (question for anyone who's looked more closely at it?)
post #56 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

the truth is that if you have only PPC machines, you can't develop for the newer models in any effective way..

Not true. You can compile for Intel on a PowerPC mac, just the same as the other way round.
post #57 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

I am curious how Sun (stock ticket JAVA, btw) intends to push this out.
If the JVM is pushed out as a stand alone app or installation, Apple has to approve it. Will they?
Also, that model implies that subsequent apps that use the JVM would have to somehow communicate with the JVM. From what I'm seeing of the SDK, apps won't be allowed to cross-communicate (outside of strict confines.)
The other option seems to be to build the JVM into every app. That sounds like a 'winner'.
What are the other options (question for anyone who's looked more closely at it?)

Building it into an app is very doable. It should add about a MB to the size of the app, which isn't a dealbreaker. But, that still wouldn't get it to work with Safari, though the current Javascript seems to be doing ok. Perhaps Javascript could be improved to the point where Java is less of a requirement.
post #58 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amorya View Post

Not true. You can compile for Intel on a PowerPC mac, just the same as the other way round.

I didn't say you couldn't. I said that developing on a PPC machine for Intel is less effective, which is true for many reasons.
post #59 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I didn't say you couldn't. I said that developing on a PPC machine for Intel is less effective, which is true for many reasons.

Yeah, that is true. But it's a far cry from impossible. I'm only a hobbyist developer, and my G5 needs to last another couple of years, but I haven't found many difficulties with it for that purpose.

Amorya
post #60 of 86
To those of you complaining regarding the Intel-only option:
Do you guis understand what iPhone SDK is?
With Xcode, creating a universal application boils down to turning on a couple of checkboxes (well, in most cases at least). But there is a lot of work behind this simplicity. Part of the work was not done by Apple - they are using open source compiler.
The iPhone SDK has a hardware simulator and requires different compiler. It is a large and complex software product on it's own. It requires development, quality assurance (this implies testing on supported hardware) and support.
SDK is still in beta. Polishing out the rough edges will take time (another year or so). It makes absolutely no sense for Apple to release a PPC version. Two years from now PPC WILL be an archaic hardware (at least for developers) and all the investment in the PPC version will go down the drain.
post #61 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Good one. I totally agree.

LOL I was going to say something in that post but this "Java war" thread is starting to waste my time. Not in regards to your post but more along the lines of my
being assaulted with "Leave this discussion to the professionals"...

I am to blame though for further flame wars here, because, for some reason I have a deep emotional reaction to what I perceive to be a failure of almost everything that Java promised/promises.

I did earlier say WILL JAVA JUST DIE ALREADY. Which is a sentiment that while not total, is certainly shared among many people.

In the online space anyway (not counting JSP or JavaScript... both of which are somewhat different) I would rather anyday have a dodgy Flash website than a dodgy Java applet loading. I do not like any of my Java games on my mobile phone, and have not found good embedded Java on my devices, I imagine Linksys routers which are kinda okay, use some form of Linux?

As a wise poster pointed out as well, this is Java for mobile not desktop Java which places even more constraints on Java in the iPhone context.
post #62 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow View Post

To those of you complaining regarding the Intel-only option:
Do you guis understand what iPhone SDK is?....

Wow an unintended pun but a good one.
post #63 of 86
Judging from the responses there are a number of programmers with a significant investment in Java and/or Flash.

Sorry guys, I'm sure your applications are the exception to the rule, but I'm so tired of all the crapware delivered over the intarwebz on those two platforms that I avoid them like the plague. There's just no value add to me. In fact, when I get a new computer the first thing I do is download Firefox, then I nuke the JVM, download AdBlock Plus and FlashBlock and get on with my life.

In the event that either Flash or the JVM does get ported to the Touch platform, I hope its that easy to disable them.

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post #64 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Judging from the responses there are a number of programmers with a significant investment in Java and/or Flash.

Sorry guys, I'm sure your applications are the exception to the rule, but I'm so tired of all the crapware delivered over the intarwebz on those two platforms ......

I agree. Sorry to sound low-tech and all, in the midst of this high-falutin' back-and-forth, but I have to say that every time Safari has crashed on me (in Leopard), the error message always says something about Flash.
post #65 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

As for Java, will it please frickin' die already !!! DIE!!! Bloated piece of garbage. Always has been.

Exactly. I can't understand how this language constantly seems to stick it's head in everywhere. It's not too bad to program in, but its slow as hell and bloated like you say. There is almost always a better alternative to using Java.
post #66 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amorya View Post

You'd think that wouldn't you...



Amorya

Are you saying that you're running the SDK on a PPC Mac (truely)?
- I know it looks like it - but it could just be a mock-up

- if so, I'm sure there's a lot of people here who would be interested in hearing more

(I don't have a PPC Mac, but it's just interesting....)
post #67 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutcho View Post

Exactly. I can't understand how this language constantly seems to stick it's head in everywhere. It's not too bad to program in, but its slow as hell and bloated like you say. There is almost always a better alternative to using Java.

Yeah...
- the cross-platform benefits of Java would be quickly outweighed by the benefits of developing native applications for the iPhone.

- it might help some apps get to the iPhone quickly
- but I think they would eventually be ported to native apps to get the full benefit of the speed, graphics, UI etc of the iPhone.
post #68 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amorya View Post

Yeah, that is true. But it's a far cry from impossible. I'm only a hobbyist developer, and my G5 needs to last another couple of years, but I haven't found many difficulties with it for that purpose.

Amorya

You see, you fit my definition of hobbyist, as you yourself admit.

So, there's no disagreement..
post #69 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I agree. Sorry to sound low-tech and all, in the midst of this high-falutin' back-and-forth, but I have to say that every time Safari has crashed on me (in Leopard), the error message always says something about Flash.

Then go to Adobe's site, and download the latest version. Safari crashed for me as well from Flash Ads. When Adobe came out with the last update, a while ago, it ended that entirely. Safari hasn't crashed even once since I updated Flash.

This is something I complained about as well, several months ago.
post #70 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by samurai1999 View Post

Yeah...
- the cross-platform benefits of Java would be quickly outweighed by the benefits of developing native applications for the iPhone.

The cross-platform benefits of Java would be quickly outweighed by, well, anything if Java was just as cross-platform as it claimed to be.

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post #71 of 86
I dont miss java nor flash on my iPhone and could care less if they are ever offered.

Also the SDK does indeed run on PowerPc Macs
http://www.iphoneatlas.com/2008/03/1...-powerpc-macs/
post #72 of 86
From the responses on this and another thread, Java and Flash obviously both have their defenders. They're all probably right that people's negative impressions of both are due to improper use by web designers. I have to say, both have adversely impacted my web-browsing experience. So tell me, what guarantee do we have that all the people using Flash and Java on the iPhone would be as expert as our Java and Flash experts who have spoken out here undoubtedly would be themselves? As for updating Flash, I have Flash 9, and about half the time when I hit the back button on a Flash-heavy website (nasa.gov seems to be the worst) my browser crashes. (Well, Safari or Firefox are all I have much experience with.)
post #73 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by samurai1999 View Post

Are you saying that you're running the SDK on a PPC Mac (truely)?
- I know it looks like it - but it could just be a mock-up

- if so, I'm sure there's a lot of people here who would be interested in hearing more

(I don't have a PPC Mac, but it's just interesting....)

Yes, I'm saying that.

You have to install the packages from the SDK disk image manually, then copy a few files to the correct place in the developer folder. I still haven't got code completion in xcode working, but things seem to compile fine.
post #74 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

Yes. We read the feeds and it was also on the video. It is also quite clear on the Developer Connection page

Better question: Why should Ford build a transmission today to use in an Edsel or a Cadillac?

By the way, the Intel Macs? They must be running Leopard.

P.S. For Apple to code the iPhone SDK to run on Vista, wouldn't they need the source code for Vista?

Bad analogy (can *car analogies* just die already?). Car companies build parts for other companies all the time. Hell, I've got a 2005 Dodge Stratus. Mine is a sedan, it was built by Chrysler. The Coupe version of the car was built (far less well I might add :-p) by Mitsubishi.

For that matter, in terms of computer cross pollination and Apple, forgetting about more subtle ones like Rosetta and such, isn't the MBP actually made by AsusTek?

Apple would be *very* smart to make the SDK available to everyone, they are sacrificing winning in a market they can win *alot* more market-share (and mind-share) in (smart phones) to attempt to gain more of a foothold in the developer market on the computer level. But this means you have to lay out a lot to dev for the iphone if you're not already a mac user, since OSX doesn't (legally) run in a vm or non-apple hardware.
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post #75 of 86
There seems to be some broad mis-interpretation of the various technology by a few posts that should be clarified. And please correct me too if you think I am making some bad/wrong analogies -

1. JavaScript is interpreted by an embedded engine that is already within each modern web browser, including Safari on the iPhone, like plain HTML is interpreted on the fly by the browser. JavaScript is not Java. A Java program must be compiled by a SDK (the JDK) first and then launched by a runtime (the JVM) - think of it as an extra plug-in that must be installed on the OS, not the same as a Flash plug-in for Safari. I for one agree with lots of people that with the evolving Web technology and ever more powerful web browser, a lot of advanced stuff can be done on the browser just sticking to strict common standards native to any browser without an extra plug-in like Flash.

2. The #1 goal for Jobs & Apple is to make native apps on iPhone run as fast and slick as possible, using the native Mac technology first. Think about what made iTunes/iPod and then iPhones great in the first place. They care about making a super high quality product on their own platform first. For that reason and many others people already mentioned, if I worked at Apple my #1 project priority right now is to focus our efforts and make the iPhone SDK as perfect as possible for just Mac OS X, so it can get out of Beta first. You can bet their developers are working overtime as it is to meet the June deadline. Probably no vacation until after September. They cannot afford to be sidetracked by trying to make the SDK work on Windows or with Java when it's still in beta, nor should they.

3. Java is a great language. It should have been The Flash (anyone still heard of an applet?) before Flash came along but it didn't. It is not without its community's own internal debates and controversies. Google's open source Android mobile platform use Java as the programming language but it will run on Google's own custom JVM instead of Sun's. That kind of sums up people's conflicted opinions about Java.

4. People hammer on the Mac-only SDK and the App Store limitations but hackers will store-break it anyway. I prefer to give Apple props for trying to ensure the quality of apps that will make or break their brand for the 90% new consumers who don't want to break their personal device. Apple probably is also hoping the SDK works so well it will show how efficient and sweet developing for OS X is.

5. Still, anything is possible. Java and Flash may prove too popular and for the good of the consumer the companies will work something out to put them on iPhone. I would not count out the engineers at Sun. IMO right now the iPhone is the hot property, and it is up to Adobe and Sun to make Flash and Java run up to the quality and standard expected on the iPhone.

6. I think when the new iPhone really blows people minds away - all it takes is that one killer app you won't get on other devices - the development for it will really take off. I imagine you might see some creative things - 1) may be a new compacted JVM will be distributed with every Java app for the iPhone but they still have to go through the app store, and 2) some really sharp guys elsewhere will build a OS X compiler outside Mac OS, so you can take a Java program and package it as an iPhone app from any OS (my conjecture; could be BS). Either way Apple makes more money and the platform gets more popular even with non-Mac programmers.

7. People probably wonder why I'm talking about Flash in this thread too. What I think may be interesting is that, given most of the server side code for Adobe's AIR/CF/Flex is now Java based, once Sun can optimize a Java for the iPhone, Adobe may piggyback on it to make a quality Flash (not-Lite) that will be accepted for the iPhone as well. IMO the people who will be really rooting for Sun is Adobe.

Now that I've tried to be as even-handed and fair as I can to all camps, let me say if there is one iPhone app I would build would be a Flash ad killer. I bet it will sell like hotcakes! My definition of Quality would be - Any app that I tap my finger on, if it did not come up in a second with exactly just what I expected, should just be killed and the resource re-allocated to something more useful. I didn't pay $400 bucks to see stupid ugly annoying graphics or the bouncing ball!
post #76 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatesbasher View Post

From the responses on this and another thread, Java and Flash obviously both have their defenders.

At least at one time there was a justification for java. There might even be one for Flash. The problem is there are way to many Flash only web sites and a large subset of those that kill modern processors. I just see those two issues as being developer related and a case of people not being able to handle a tool responsibly.

The other issue with Flash is that the need for it, to deliver video, will quickly disappear once HTML 5 takes root. The video delivery sites are often the only ones that make use of flash in a responsible manner.
Quote:
They're all probably right that people's negative impressions of both are due to improper use by web designers. I have to say, both have adversely impacted my web-browsing experience.

You and me both. At times I get so frustrated with flash based sites that I discontinue using them.
Quote:
So tell me, what guarantee do we have that all the people using Flash and Java on the iPhone would be as expert as our Java and Flash experts who have spoken out here undoubtedly would be themselves? As for updating Flash, I have Flash 9, and about half the time when I hit the back button on a Flash-heavy website (nasa.gov seems to be the worst) my browser crashes. (Well, Safari or Firefox are all I have much experience with.)

I think this is in a nut shell what Apple is trying to prevent. That is the installation of destabilizing software. Or maybe better put resource hungry software. I've used Flash on all three platforms (Linux, Mac and Windows) and just don't see it as benefit.

Dave
post #77 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by seek3r View Post

Apple would be *very* smart to make the SDK available to everyone, they are sacrificing winning in a market they can win *alot* more market-share (and mind-share) in (smart phones) to attempt to gain more of a foothold in the developer market on the computer level. But this means you have to lay out a lot to dev for the iphone if you're not already a mac user, since OSX doesn't (legally) run in a vm or non-apple hardware.

Apple isn't in business to prop up Microsoft, they are in business for themselves (as it should be, esp. for a publicly traded company).

The reality is that the SDK *is* available to everyone, you can get a new mini starting at $599 which includes Leopard and the Xcode 3.0 developer tools, the SDK is essentially free for signing up to the ADC Online membership, the developer deployment kit has a one-time cost of $99, new iPhones start at $399 or the Touch starts at $299. Everything you need for under a grand. If you can work with the iPhone simulator to start and already have a Mac you can start development with no out of pocket costs. I really don't see the problem here.

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post #78 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Apple isn't in business to prop up Microsoft, they are in business for themselves (as it should be, esp. for a publicly traded company).

The reality is that the SDK *is* available to everyone, you can get a new mini starting at $599 which includes Leopard and the Xcode 3.0 developer tools, the SDK is essentially free for signing up to the ADC Online membership, the developer deployment kit has a one-time cost of $99, new iPhones start at $399 or the Touch starts at $299. Everything you need for under a grand. If you can work with the iPhone simulator to start and already have a Mac you can start development with no out of pocket costs. I really don't see the problem here.

I don't see the problem either, but there will always be some people who want to start a "business" for free. Sometimes, one must make an investment, if only to have some incentive to keep working to pay that money back in the end.
post #79 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Apple isn't in business to prop up Microsoft, they are in business for themselves (as it should be, esp. for a publicly traded company).

I don't think it's about propping up Microsoft, but it's not necessarily simply about being self-serving either, though I imagine that can easily be part of it. I don't think it's necessarily the best thing if a Windows dev programs for the phone without being immersed in how Apple UIs and such are done.
post #80 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by deanston View Post

There seems to be some broad mis-interpretation of the various technology by a few posts that should be clarified. And please correct me too if you think I am making some bad/wrong analogies

You probably went overboard. The huge mis-interpretation I see here is that people keep equating Java with something running in web browsers ... in other words Applets. I hit dozens and dozens of websites a day ... nobody and I mean nobody uses Applets anymore. I'll admit to personally knowing a couple of exceptions, but in one case the site is like 10 years old and the other it's an optional viewer for large datasets, which they also provide about 6 other ways to view.

Embedded Applets in websites were done years ago, because quite frankly there weren't really any better ways to do some of those things at the time. Without significant changes in how browsers currently function and handle Java, no programmer worth their salt would use Java for those purposes today, and nobody does ... you can't say the same for Flash.
Quote:
3. [Java] is not without its community's own internal debates and controversies. Google's open source Android mobile platform use Java as the programming language but it will run on Google's own custom JVM instead of Sun's. That kind of sums up people's conflicted opinions about Java.

Google has their own "JVM" (which they don't call a Java Virtual Machine, just a VM, because it doesn't run Java bytecode) to avoid certification and licensing. Sun likely wouldn't approve what they've done anyhow. Lawsuits may yet appear over this before we see Android on a phone (but I suspect Sun and Google will work something out before it gets that far since Android is still an evolving spec).
Quote:
7. People probably wonder why I'm talking about Flash in this thread too.

I have no clue why people are talking about Flash in this thread. So, so, so unrelated. Today, Flash = web embedded programs; Java = separately launchable applications. A well done CLDC or CDC JVM would mean you could run Java MIDP apps or more sophisticated programs right from the icon dock (is that what Apple calls it?). Could certainly include some multitouch input by adding that as an option to the ScrollPane, AWT in CDC = native widgets ... at least for some apps you might have a hard time telling that Java is even there (which happens to be true in some cases on the Mac already). Take this a little farther and you might be running Android apps as well.

Anyhow since Java applications today are user installed programs, it's not like you're being forced to download and use them.
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