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If Obama is the Democrat against McCain this could ruin his campaign. - Page 2  

post #41 of 312
3/13/08 at 11:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

GEvery time a conservative tries to explain a nuanced position, even one that explains their own moderating views, it gets jumped on here by the Usual Suspects.

That's pretty darn savvy.



But to the pastor in question -- I don't think there's any real there there. He just basically said the same thing Bill Mahr or Jimmy Carter, or Jim Wallis has said: we're a sh*tty nation of pigs that like to kill people for teh Jeewz or oil.

Sociopolitically speaking, Christians are the same slaves to dead European philosophers as the rest of the citizenry. Any other skirmishing in light of what Jubelum mentioned doesn't amount to much more than sparring over a metaphysical/existential threat.

We're arguing over whether or not to acknowledge an entity that doesn't exist -- as if that could be important.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #42 of 312
3/13/08 at 11:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindler View Post

Here's the explanation Obama should give to get rid of the problem:

"I disagree with the political views of my pastor. These simply don't come up in church gatherings. My pastor is one of the most kind hearted people I've ever met, the kind of person anyone would trust to leave their kids with or to go into a business with. He is a great man on a personal level. This is different from the political level where he has let his frustration with the current state of black America get in the way of fairly analyzing the system. We all know people who are great, trustworthy people on a personal level but can be wacky when it comes to politics. We can admire them on a personal level, but roll our eyes when it comes to their solutions to political problems."

I don't think this would work for 80% of the people who care about this. Two sentences, max.

"I like the atmosphere of the church, but I've found I disagree strongly with the racist mentality of the pastor."

If he wants to put this to bed, it's going to have to be a zinger like that. The word "racist" is to the liberal as garlic is to a vampire, and it will have to be used. Otherwise, it's just a shrug-off.
Cat: the other white meat
Cat: the other white meat
post #43 of 312
3/14/08 at 2:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

I like it.

It works because what the Pastor's saying at its core isn't really objectionable.

"God D*mn America."

Not objectionable.

Mmmkay.
"Stand Up for Chuck"
"Stand Up for Chuck"
post #44 of 312
3/14/08 at 6:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

"God D*mn America."

Not objectionable.

Mmmkay.

You do realize he wants a stronger America along social justice lines?

That was the context. If you missed that, I might have to break out the giant *whoosh.* It looks something like this:

*Whoosh!*
post #45 of 312
3/14/08 at 6:37am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

You do realize he wants a stronger America along social justice lines?

That was the context. If you missed that,

And Bush wants a stronger Iraq... So What... It is how you get there that matters..

The question is... Do we "get there" with inflamitory / red neck / NASCAR/ blue collar speech or with well thought out inspirational calls to forge action with many involved without saying careless and thoughtless things like "God Damn America" and KKK with this pastor or "with us or against us" in Bush's case.

How you get there is just as important as where you are trying to arrive.

Shawn you know this to be true.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #46 of 312
3/14/08 at 7:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

The question is... Do we "get there" with inflamitory / red neck / NASCAR/ blue collar speech or with well thought out inspirational calls to forge action with many involved without saying careless and thoughtless things like "God Damn America" and KKK with this pastor or "with us or against us" in Bush's case.

How you get there is just as important as where you are trying to arrive.

Wah wah.

He can be angry about the state of our country if he wants to. It's not racist, sexist, or demeaining of anyone in any way; rather it's just not up to your aesthetic standards. At least recognize you're having a quibbling over style and taste here.
post #47 of 312
3/14/08 at 7:08am
The man speaks the truth.
traveling the globe in an envelope
traveling the globe in an envelope
post #48 of 312
3/14/08 at 7:28am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Wah wah.

He can be angry about the state of our country if he wants to. It's not racist, sexist, or demeaining of anyone in any way; rather it's just not up to your aesthetic standards. At least recognize you're having a quibbling over style and taste here.

You are right.. I think this same idea of style could be said to be one of the core reasons democrats, some independents and even some republicans who have switched have turned out in droves this primary. The "Style" of Bush being what it is, hard headed / cowboy diplomacy etc. etc. has "turned people off" in a BIG way (and not just in this country) which we can see evidenced in part with the HUGE turnout we see in the democratic primaries.

My point being,, Obama needs to distance himself from his pastor because as I see it this pastor will only serve to bring Obama down in terms of support the more people see this pastor and what he has said and how he has said it.

It really makes Obama look less intellectual and smart. Shawn I am not upset with you if you or Obama believes what the pastor has said is on the mark or correct what have you. There is no question his ways of making his points are inappropriate, in poor taste and from another era of old school failed politics which does not get anything done.

Now MLK Jr. is another story.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #49 of 312
3/14/08 at 7:39am
Why can't America put aside its hypocricy and look reality in the face? We murdered the native Americans to get this land. We enslaved the black man. We essentailly enslaved the yellow man to build railroads. We treated works like trash until they unionized and then we replaced them with non-union third world workers. We have manipulated governments and peoples across the globe to get what we want.

Beating your chest in an elaborate Evangelical Church doesn't even it up in the eyes of the God we love so much to identify ourselves with.

Obama's minister speaks the truth.
traveling the globe in an envelope
traveling the globe in an envelope
post #50 of 312
3/14/08 at 7:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flat Stanley View Post

Why can't America put aside its hypocricy and look reality in the face? We murdered the native Americans to get this land. We enslaved the black man. We essentailly enslaved the yellow man to build railroads. We treated works like trash until they unionized and then we replaced them with non-union third world workers. We have manipulated governments and peoples across the globe to get what we want.

Beating your chest in an elaborate Evangelical Church doesn't even it up in the eyes of the God we love so much to identify ourselves with.

Obama's minister speaks the truth.

Actually I agree with this statement. But I would say that to move forward in a progressive way people respond better with inspiration rather than stirred up anger at the realities of the past/present. This very criticism has been made in regard to some of the Alex Jones folks who go around to public meetings where Bill Clinton etc. go and give speeches. It is argued that instead of trying to blindside these figures with heckling and yelling it would be far more effective for these people to get involved in the political process if they really want to make a difference.

People can rant and rave about the realities on the ground all day but if people want "Change" which is the message of Obama they need to do exactly what Obama has done... Get involved in the process and make a positive change.

People can stir people up in anger all day long but it will not do much good if any.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #51 of 312
3/14/08 at 7:56am
Thread Starter 
An analogy:

Imagine three or four older 75+ somethings sitting around all complaining about how their doctor changed their medication and now their hip hurts. Or for another they now have gas and bloating. For one lady her knees are killing her after her doctor told her to stop taking a certain pill.

There are two options...

Do something about it / Go back to the doctor and request a change

or

Sit around in a "misery loves company" huddle and gripe, complain, moan and groan about all the crap going on.

I suspect the pastor of Obama's "Church" runs the show with the 2nd option in my analogy. He keeps people just irritated enough where they can go home and say to themselves... "Man that preacher can relate to me and my troulbles."

They show up the next Sunday which is just what the pastor wants....

But does the cycle of moaning and groaning change?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #52 of 312
3/14/08 at 8:06am
I believe fully that change comes from working constructively. I also believe that it sometimes takes a more radical and aggressive approach to get the attention needed to start the constructive process. Compare, if you will, many of the Prophets and John the Baptist to Jesus. Imagine running into Ezekiel on the street. Most Christians that I know would run the other way. I might too.
traveling the globe in an envelope
traveling the globe in an envelope
post #53 of 312
3/14/08 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

You do realize he wants a stronger America along social justice lines?

That was the context. If you missed that, I might have to break out the giant *whoosh.* It looks something like this:

*Whoosh!*

I don't care if he wants a pink, three-tiered funeral cake with a chocolate transmission on top... a pastor is going to catch a lot of shit, and rightfully so, for saying God D*mn America. And beyond the semantics, his sentiments are based in the old-school mold that fights hate with... more hate. Exactly how did his publicity stunt do a damn thing for racial reconciliation or *real* progress? As far as I am concerned, this specimen is not really a pastor... he's another fossil of the age when you could hide behind the collar to espouse your perverted version of racial justice. THESE are the people who have perverted MLK's dream.

If you cannot even bring yourself to condemn, just a little, this kind of thing, then I really can't help you. Just make sure the next time there is divisive rage from the right that you are also on-board with minimizing obviously racist, hateful, and inflammatory rhetoric. Geez, we've gone from "Hagee, that bastard" in this thread to "we must understand and feel the pain of Pastor Wright..."

Quote:
"God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

Yep... that's really going to help.
"Stand Up for Chuck"
"Stand Up for Chuck"
post #54 of 312
3/14/08 at 8:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

Exactly how did his publicity stunt do a damn thing for racial reconciliation or *real* progress?

I wasn't aware he had to do anything at all.

He's expressing his anger in a way that doesn't demean anyone.

Let him have his soapbox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

If you cannot even bring yourself to condemn, just a little, this kind of thing, then I really can't help you. Just make sure the next time there is divisive rage from the right that you are also on-board with minimizing obviously racist, hateful, and inflammatory rhetoric.

Obviously racist?

Care to point that part out to my apparently less-than-discerning eyes?
post #55 of 312
3/14/08 at 9:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

I wasn't aware he had to do anything at all.

He's expressing his anger in a way that doesn't demean anyone.

Let him have his soapbox.



Obviously racist?

Care to point that part out to my apparently less-than-discerning eyes?

Did you not hear the part in the video where he mentioned "white america" and in a tone of voice which sounded divisive and of hate filled venom?

Shawn you can evade calling this kind of preaching what it is but it does not bolster your integrity when you give a pass in the case of when it is a democrat involved. You are no better than republicans who you know also give a pass to so many things which are flatly wrong and without defense.

So Cheers Shawn you are like the republicans who say Bush does nothing wrong because all Bush is trying to do is make America and Iraq better.

Welcome to the culinary pot and pan drawer Shawn..



Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #56 of 312
3/14/08 at 9:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubelum View Post

THESE are the people who have perverted MLK's dream.

Indeed,, Indeed,, and It will subtract from all of the qualities of Barack Obama who It could be very well argued is more of the visionary sort of person like MLK Jr. and JFK

MLK Jr. and JFK were both visionaries and placed out a vision for the future not unlike how Obama conducts himself.

With MLK Jr. He laid out his Dream and it described a very good and progressive ideal and it was unifying and not divisive and may I say anyone with a conscious would find his dream honorable and admirable.

With JFK He laid out his vision of putting a man on the moon and this was very good and progressive and it unified the country and in no way was divisive.

With Barack Obama he has had a clear message of unifying the nation, all races, all ages and not pitting one group against another with wedge issues and lop-sided pandering but rather a more universal appeal.

He has mentioned a "New Politics" which if you read his book you WILL be impressed with his wisdom of this idea of politics. It is progressive and it is new and not the old same old stuff.


Back to Obama's pastor... His tactics are the opposite. They divide people and create angst and anger. These words used by this "pastor" are not acceptable in ANY context and do nothing but fan flames of yet more moaning and groaning and discontent. The sad part is there is nothing to inspire people with this method. No vision. No Dream. Just old school ineffective misery loves company moaning and yelling with bad choices of words...

The contrast could not be greater and the point is...

Obama needs make it clear he does not subscribe to the bad and failed methods of his "pastor"

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #57 of 312
3/14/08 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Did you not hear the part in the video where he mentioned "white america" and in a tone of voice which sounded divisive and of hate filled venom?

Yeah, man! This is his true likeness:



In all honesty, I've had enough of this dimwitted repartee. If you are able to do so, please actually explain why you find his comments racist. It's really simple:

"Obama's pastor said X"

"X is racist because."

You seem to have the strongest feelings on this point so I assume it should be easy to explain...
post #58 of 312
3/14/08 at 10:15am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post


In all honesty, I've had enough of this dimwitted repartee. If you are able to do so, please actually explain why you find his comments racist. It's really simple:

"Obama's pastor said X"

"X is racist because."

You seem to have the strongest feelings on this point so I assume it should be easy to explain...

You are conducting yourself like Bill O'Reilly on Fox news now...

*Bill O'Reilly / Shawn: You think he is RACIST tell me how he is racist..

*Poor soul being interviewed on bad show: I never said he is racist I said his methods....

*Bill O'Reilly / Shawn: Holding up his self rightious finger "No but you do think he is RACIST!!"

Shawn I am not going to play your games just becuase you think you are some kind of master debator Spin artist in a no spin zone....

You my friend (as John McCain would say) need to change and stop kidding yourself.. You fool nobody with your double standards.

Fellows

LOL \
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #59 of 312
3/14/08 at 10:29am
The claim that one can be a member of a church, listen to the pastor, write a book based off one his sermons that is the cornerstone of his entire campaign, and then claim that selective views of that pastor just don't matter is a little ridiculous to say the least. I can bang on this when I get a little time but how about we start with the fact that Obama wrote a little book called "The Audacity of Hope" which was based on a sermon of Pastor Wright.

If that isn't a meeting of the minds, a sharing of thoughts and values, I don't know what else would be.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #60 of 312
3/14/08 at 10:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

The claim that one can be a member of a church, listen to the pastor, write a book based off one his sermons that is the cornerstone of his entire campaign, and then claim that selective views of that pastor just don't matter is a little ridiculous to say the least. I can bang on this when I get a little time but how about we start with the fact that Obama wrote a little book called "The Audacity of Hope" which was based on a sermon of Pastor Wright.

If that isn't a meeting of the minds, a sharing of thoughts and values, I don't know what else would be.

Nick I think it is fair to speculate that Obama's pastor can from time to time actually put out a good message. No? And if this is the case I think we all need to be fair in our overall judgement.

That said I am not surprised that within this thread ShawnJ has been pretty much as expected a person who gives a pass to stink on his side of politics. And then to see you come on here and get a little political mileage from it because if you can get some traction with this it you see it as benefiting your side.

Correct me if I am wrong but it is just classic to see partisanship at work here with you two.

I am glad I am not beholden to any loyalties to some silly party of one flavor or another.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #61 of 312
3/14/08 at 10:46am
What, pray tell, am I giving a pass to?

You're the one saying he can't express his anger about U.S. politics in a way that doesn't demean anyone without mandatory condemnation.

As long as he's not angry, it's A-OK for the swing-voters, right?
post #62 of 312
3/14/08 at 10:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Nick I think it is fair to speculate that Obama's pastor can from time to time actually put out a good message. No? And if this is the case I think we all need to be fair in our overall judgement.

I didn't make any judgment on the pastor and his overall message. I simply said to deny that there is any connection between the thoughts of the two is ridiculous.

Quote:
That said I am not surprised that within this thread ShawnJ has been pretty much as expected a person who gives a pass to stink on his side of politics. And then to see you come on here and get a little political mileage from it because if you can get some traction with this it you see it as benefiting your side.

I wouldn't want my side to benefit at all from this than to note that racism is racism, sexism is sexism, and hate is hate. They are not "stylistic" differences or whatever it was that Shawn ridiculously claimed earlier.

Quote:
Correct me if I am wrong but it is just classic to see partisanship at work here with you two.

I am glad I am not beholden to any loyalties to some silly party of one flavor or another.

I speak to my beliefs and you speak to yours. There are aspects of all parties I have condemned. However not being beholden to a party does not free one from noticing reality and addressing it with more than platitudes. This has been my beef with Obama all along. It is often my beef with you at times and so while I am not trying to knock you in this particular instance, asking where the beef is so to speak does not mean I am being partisan. People are starting to move beyond the platitudes of "Change" and "Hope" and what they are sometimes seeing isn't always pretty. That doesn't stop those two words from being powerful ideas, but it does mean that we do have to ask how the ideas would look and affect us as implemented by him.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

post #63 of 312
3/14/08 at 10:52am
I don't see the problem here -- what the pastor said is hardly different than what Bill Mahr or Jimmy Carter, or Jim Wallis say from time to time: We deserved what we got.

I don't think many on the Left would disagree. ??

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #64 of 312
3/14/08 at 10:56am
I dunno, I think it really is and should be an issue for Obama. TPM, which was cited earlier in this thread defending Obama, had earlier been criticizing McCain for his supporters' weird religious beliefs - anti-Catholic, apocalyptic, etc. It's a common criticism that liberals use against conservatives - how they have to suck up so much to crazy religious conservatives like Bob Jones. Well, this is really the flip side of that.

But I think Obama can speak out very strongly against it, whereas I'm not sure that McCain can. He'd lose too many Republicans. It's a win-win for Obama to denounce and reject racially divisive, anti-American statements. He'll give a speech or two where he expresses his own optimism and patriotism and racial inclusiveness, and explicitly denounce and reject the other stuff. There's no downside. I can't imagine that blacks are going to think poorly of him for doing it. And the contrast between Obama and that stuff will only help him. If Obama represents anything, it's non-racial or post-racial. It's the cornerstone of his campaign.
post #65 of 312
3/14/08 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

I don't see the problem here -- what the pastor said is hardly different than what Bill Mahr or Jimmy Carter, or Jim Wallis say from time to time: We deserved what we got.

I don't think many on the Left would disagree. ??

Deserved?

We didn't "deserve" what we got, but its happening is partially explainable by our foreign policy. As a sharp guy without cynical motives, I'm going to assume you misspoke there.
post #66 of 312
3/14/08 at 10:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I speak to my beliefs and you speak to yours. There are aspects of all parties I have condemned. However not being beholden to a party does not free one from noticing reality and addressing it with more than platitudes. This has been my beef with Obama all along. It is often my beef with you at times and so while I am not trying to knock you in this particular instance, asking where the beef is so to speak does not mean I am being partisan. People are starting to move beyond the platitudes of "Change" and "Hope" and what they are sometimes seeing isn't always pretty. That doesn't stop those two words from being powerful ideas, but it does mean that we do have to ask how the ideas would look and affect us as implemented by him.

I appreciate this post of yours. I find you to make balanced and fair points within it.

Thank you

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #67 of 312
3/14/08 at 11:00am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post


But I think Obama can speak out very strongly against it, whereas I'm not sure that McCain can. He'd lose too many Republicans. It's a win-win for Obama to denounce and reject racially divisive, anti-American statements. He'll give a speech or two where he expresses his own optimism and patriotism and racial inclusiveness, and explicitly denounce and reject the other stuff. There's no downside. I can't imagine that blacks are going to think poorly of him for doing it. And the contrast between Obama and that stuff will only help him. If Obama represents anything, it's non-racial or post-racial. It's the cornerstone of his campaign.

Very well said and I agree with you...

Now if we can just get ShawnJ to speak out very strongly agaisnt it..


Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #68 of 312
3/14/08 at 11:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Deserved?

We didn't "deserve" what we got, but its happening is partially explainable by our foreign policy. As a sharp guy without cynical motives, I'm going to assume you misspoke there.

Mmmmmm... maybe -- how about "We had it coming"?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #69 of 312
3/14/08 at 11:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Very well said and I agree with you...

Now if we can just get ShawnJ to speak out very strongly agaisnt it..


Fellows

Well Shawn's a lawyer, it would be unethical for him to criticize a client.
post #70 of 312
3/14/08 at 11:11am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Well Shawn's a lawyer, it would be unethical for him to criticize a client.

Yeah I kinda figured Shawn is just getting some practice of trying to "argue a case" where by the client he represents has no case but Shawn's job is to hold water for the client anyway.

It is just that some of us can see through empty arguments but Shawn wants to attempt to distract us discerning folks to some other distraction method of a talking or arguing point of debate.

It is nice in theory but not always so smooth, slick or effective in practice..

No offense Shawn... You know I still love ya

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #71 of 312
3/14/08 at 11:11am
Model Rule of Professional Conduct 1.7.

post #72 of 312
3/14/08 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

I dunno, I think it really is and should be an issue for Obama. TPM, which was cited earlier in this thread defending Obama, had earlier been criticizing McCain for his supporters' weird religious beliefs - anti-Catholic, apocalyptic, etc. It's a common criticism that liberals use against conservatives - how they have to suck up so much to crazy religious conservatives like Bob Jones. Well, this is really the flip side of that.

But I think Obama can speak out very strongly against it, whereas I'm not sure that McCain can. He'd lose too many Republicans. It's a win-win for Obama to denounce and reject racially divisive, anti-American statements. He'll give a speech or two where he expresses his own optimism and patriotism and racial inclusiveness, and explicitly denounce and reject the other stuff. There's no downside. I can't imagine that blacks are going to think poorly of him for doing it. And the contrast between Obama and that stuff will only help him. If Obama represents anything, it's non-racial or post-racial. It's the cornerstone of his campaign.

Very well said. And I agree that McCain is in a box where he absolutely CANNOT "denounce and reject" any of the religious loons that endorse him, solicited or not.

But Obama CAN without hurting his base.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
post #73 of 312
3/14/08 at 11:22am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Very well said. And I agree that McCain is in a box where he absolutely CANNOT "denounce and reject" any of the religious loons that endorse him, solicited or not.

But Obama CAN without hurting his base.

I think BRussell is going to win the "Very well said" award for 2008

I nominate him and I am the deciding superdelegate with the authority of giving out this award!

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #74 of 312
3/14/08 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

It's really simple:

"Obama's pastor said X"

"X is racist because."

Racism n. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Obama's pastor is the purveyor of the so-called "Black Value System" which includes:

Quote:
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System

Let me demonstrate this for you:

10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting White Institutions.
11. Pledge allegiance to all White leadership who espouse and embrace the White Value System.

Raise your ire at all? Do you get that he's NOT ADVOCATING the content of character, rather he's fixated on skin color?

Chew on this... see if you agree that this is a valid sentiment :

Quote:
"It's about time for those of us still capable of thinking tribally to begin doing so. It's about time for those of us who understand what it means to be Black, to be African, to be colored in a darkening world, and who understand what it used to mean -- those of us who treasure our heritage, who honor the sacrifices and achievements of our forefathers and appreciate the civilization they created for us -- those of us who feel a sense of responsibility to the future and are determined that our people shall inherit the future, -- it's about time for us to begin thinking and planning and acting systematically in a manner aimed at our racial survival.

It's time to stop being spectators, to stop listening to the hypocritical cant of the liberals and the mindless ramblings of the conservatives. It's time to base everything -- everything -- on the proposition that we must survive, our people must survive. If a policy strengthens our people, if it increases the survivability of our people, it is a good policy. If it weakens us or puts us at a disadvantage in the struggle for survival, it is a bad policy. That's all that matters. That's all that we should consider. Racial survival must be the goal of every plan, of every policy, of every thought and action. Tribal thinking.

This quote was actually written by the virulent white racist William Pierce who founded the National Alliance.
I just put "black" and "African" where it said "white" and "Aryan."
Swap "black" for "white" in Wright's sermons, and see how fast he ends up with his own Idaho compound.

Is THIS content of character, or simply based on skin color? :

Quote:
WRIGHT: Hillary never had to worry about being pulled over in her car as a black man driving in the wrong! I am sick of Negroes who just do not get it! Hillary was not a black boy raised in a single parent home! Barack was. Barack knows what it means to be a black man living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people! Hillary can never know that! Hillary ain't never been called a nigger! Hillary has never had her people defined as nonpersons! Hillary ain't had to work twice as hard just to get accepted by the rich white folk who run everything, or to get a passing grade when you know you are smarter than their C-students sitting in the White House. Hillary ain't never had her own people say she wasn't white enough!

WRIGHT: The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law, and then wants us to sing God bless America? No, no, no! Not God bless America! God (bleep) America! (cheers) -- it's in the Bible -- for killing innocent people! (cheers) God (bleep) America for treating her citizens as less than human!

Does this sounds like a person talking about faith from the pulpit, or a political hack in the process of race-baiting? You decide. These are NOT the words of racial reconciliation and progress. His apparent rage is not accompishing much, except fomenting more of the same, causing a push-back among mainstream people, and giving BHO a bit of a headache for his affiliation.

Oh, and cuddling with other extremists like Farrahkhan and dictators like Quadaffi, over-the-top anti-semites and racists themselves, does not help.
"Stand Up for Chuck"
"Stand Up for Chuck"
post #75 of 312
3/14/08 at 11:42am
Guys, did that pastor really say "God F**K America"?

That can't be right -- must have heard that wrong.






Listen to this: in the consumer behavior book I'm working on -- under Hispanic marketing screwups:


To make matters worse, “GotMilk?” translates as “Are you lactating?”

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

post #76 of 312
3/14/08 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

To make matters worse, GotMilk? translates as Are you lactating?


Chevy Nova: It Doesn't Go
"Stand Up for Chuck"
"Stand Up for Chuck"
post #77 of 312
3/14/08 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Guys, did that pastor really say "God F**K America"?

That can't be right -- must have heard that wrong.

I thought it was "damn" rather than "fuck." Either way, I doubt God took him up on it.
post #78 of 312
3/14/08 at 12:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post

Yeah, man! This is his true likeness:



In all honesty, I've had enough of this dimwitted repartee. If you are able to do so, please actually explain why you find his comments racist. It's really simple:

"Obama's pastor said X"

"X is racist because."

You seem to have the strongest feelings on this point so I assume it should be easy to explain...

Ok Shawn I have decided he actually is racist at times.

Here you go:


He makes mention of rich white eurpoean folk who run and control everything.

So that is ok? What if he were in Germany 60 something years ago saying:

Jews run and control everything.... Does he think the blacks need a "solution" to take care of all these rich european white folks who run and control everything?

I think you get the point...

Not a pastor,,, a fruitcake..

Don't believe me just watch yourself and make up your own mind...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAYe7MT5BxM

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
post #79 of 312
3/14/08 at 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

He makes mention of rich white eurpoean folk who run and control everything.

You're telling me they don't?
post #80 of 312
3/14/08 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

I dunno, I think it really is and should be an issue for Obama. TPM, which was cited earlier in this thread defending Obama, had earlier been criticizing McCain for his supporters' weird religious beliefs - anti-Catholic, apocalyptic, etc. It's a common criticism that liberals use against conservatives - how they have to suck up so much to crazy religious conservatives like Bob Jones. Well, this is really the flip side of that.

Agreed.

Quote:
But I think Obama can speak out very strongly against it, whereas I'm not sure that McCain can. He'd lose too many Republicans. It's a win-win for Obama to denounce and reject racially divisive, anti-American statements. He'll give a speech or two where he expresses his own optimism and patriotism and racial inclusiveness, and explicitly denounce and reject the other stuff. There's no downside. I can't imagine that blacks are going to think poorly of him for doing it. And the contrast between Obama and that stuff will only help him. If Obama represents anything, it's non-racial or post-racial. It's the cornerstone of his campaign.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The sentiment is nice, but the reality is that so far, Obama has not condemned any of these statements. McCain has already condemned strongly anyone who attempts to take this campaign to the streets so far. I'm not saying that he will always do that or will do that with everyone, but that has been his practice so far.

Obama on the other hand has basically handled most criticism by having contemporaries condemn it as racist. The 3am call has been declared to have racist intent. Bill Clinton has been painted this way has now Ferraro. I'm sure the push back on this will be the same but I think in this instance it won't stick outside of African-American communities and as Fellowship noted, could seriously begin to divide and break up the party or at a minimum begin to dampen enthusiam and turnout.

Obama has attend this church for twenty years. He took the sermon and made it a book. The pastor officiated at his wedding. I am not about to suggest that this means they are of the same mind, but it does mean in my view that there cannot be any ambigiuity about the condemnation and that the act of condemning will itself be more personal and thus harder.

McCain may want certain votes, but condemning the random religious figure is not the same as condemning the guy that was at your wedding, that you have seen every weekened for 20 years, the guy who inspired you to write a book and speech.

So sure he can speak out strongly on it. The reality is he hasn't yet and might not ever. I'm not sure calling him a crazy uncle is a condemnation.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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