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Adobe clears up likelihood of Flash for iPhone - Page 3

post #81 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The install will take some time vbecause there are a number of programs to install. I would be surprised if it didn't rake some time.

As for the updates, they always go smoothly, I just did the latest early this evening, and as usual, there was no problem.

As for some plug-ins and other small add-ons that most people won't be wanting, sure, you have to take the entire minute it takes to install them, if you really want them. I thought you were a pro. You're using pro apps. You can't take a bit of time to install something that just a few people will want?

that's a silly response. admin a lab or two full of CS3 and manual install of plugins is TEH FAIL. Also if you check the Adobe forums update failure is NOT trivial. Sorry, but for the importance and cost of the suite, and its prevalence in large companies this kind of install and maintenance behavior is pathetic.
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post #82 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowerd View Post

that's a silly response. admin a lab or two full of CS3 and manual install of plugins is TEH FAIL. Also if you check the Adobe forums update failure is NOT trivial. Sorry, but for the importance and cost of the suite, and its prevalence in large companies this kind of install and maintenance behavior is pathetic.

It's no different from almost every other program.
post #83 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLemming View Post

Just curious what kind of developing iPeon and wbrasington do? Are you just consumers expressing your opinion or do you really have a point to make? Melgross is bringing up some good points and you guys are turning fanboi on him... It seems like every argument fanboys get involved in there is some comparison to Microsoft in the argument...

My point from the very beginning was just that flash is a really bad product, from a company that has lost it's ability to upgrade it, and that Jobs took the position it wasn't needed to launch the iPhone. He was right. He says it's a performance problem, and won't go on the phone as a performance problem.

EVERYTHING that Mel has said, has been either complete speculation on his part, or interesting historical notes on the two companies relationships in the past as a way to bolster what is again, complete speculation.
The idea that Apple has resources to expend working in secret behind the scenes with Adobe to help to fix the performance problems in the next 6-12 months, when it clearly isn't important to Apple, and clearly hasn't hurt Apple, is stupid.

The 3G phone will have it's own power problems, and they're trying to get the phone into the corporate world, and advance the SDK user groups. Any fragmented effort to peel off resources to help Adobe on flash performance is just silly.
Flash isn't coming to the phone anytime soon (this decade) because Apple has much more important things to worry about. And for you flash programers out there, just deal with it and download the SDK and start learning how to build efficient apps for the phone instead of thinking flash is your development envinroment.

It's not a consumer view on my part, it's just that it makes no sense for Apple to dilute efforts that are already strapped for something nobody at the Apple store, or the corporate world, or the SDK user community cares about.
(despite all the nice historic stuff about prior Adobe and Apple relationships....)
post #84 of 86
As my name was brought up, I feel as though I have to say something.

While Mr. Brasington says that everything I've said is speculation, it is not. I'm going from what Jobs ACTUALLY said. He is pushing his dislike for Flash as though Jobs said that it wouldn't appear on the iPhone no matter what, in any form. He never said that. His remarks leave the possibility open. Mr. Brasington also wavers between "never", and "not soon". I don't know which he actually means.

Also, the idea that Adobe has somehow lost control of the Flash software is absurd. They got this product from Macromedia, and its faults can be laid down there. Adobe is working to improve this product.

While I've never said that Flash would appear, I do say, unlikely as some think it may be, it's possible.

While this is a negative article about Flash, they do quote Jobs's "maybe", which is what he said when asked about it.

Quote:
Last January, Jobs said the iPhone would not ship with support for Sun's Java, but left a question mark hanging on the subject of Flash support, using the word "maybe."

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...he_iphone.html

As we all know, Apple has surprised us before.
post #85 of 86
Quote:
My point from the very beginning was just that flash is a really bad product, from a company that has lost it's ability to upgrade it, and that Jobs took the position it wasn't needed to launch the iPhone. He was right. He says it's a performance problem, and won't go on the phone as a performance problem.

I disagree with your first two points (really bad product / lost its ability to be upgraded), but I agree with you on your last point (not necessary for the iPhone launch).

If Flash is such a poor product and cannot be upgraded:

1.) Why does the current version (Flash Player 9) enjoy such market worldwide ubiquity?
95% of all people who browse the web have it installed: Flash Player version penetration.

2.) Why would Adobe have merged with Macromedia?
Removing a competing creative software company is one thing, but Flash was the obvious prize here. Dreamweaver ran a somewhat distant 2nd in their priorities and so on. Livemotion (SVG) wasn't gaining as much traction on the web as they had hoped and this was Adobe's opportunity to buy that market-share outright. In addition, Flash lite and Flash Paper could have been a threat to elements of Adobe's strategy if Macromedia were to have gotten it together.

3.) Why would Adobe acquire a product that had no future beyond it's (then) current capability?
This makes absolutely no sense. Flash still has a potentially promising future ahead of it. Doing motion work and developing in Flash is generally pretty rapid and intuitive, AS3 is a reasonably powerful scripting environment and the Flash platform can be used as an excellent video player / delivery mechanism (visit any social video site ala Youtube).

I'm not surprised that the iPhone did not launch with Flash whatsoever. The retooling required to launch the Flash Player application on that platform is significant and would require a large amount of time and resources to get it to work well in Safari and/or as a standalone app.

There needs to be a distinction made when talking about performance. As it currently stands, Flash Player won't perform well on the IPhone. It performs well on most modern desktops/laptops because of the processing capability available and the lack of restrictions that all current handsets have. The mobile space as we understand it now is very new and requires apps to be specifically tuned or written because of the additional restrictions that most ports couldn't meet (processing power, power use, etc.).

Quote:
The idea that Apple has resources to expend working in secret behind the scenes with Adobe to help to fix the performance problems in the next 6-12 months, when it clearly isn't important to Apple, and clearly hasn't hurt Apple, is stupid.

None of us can speak to Apple's resources, capabilities or interest in certain terms unless you work there. Even then, I'm sure you'll be bound by a NDA, so in essence, it is a secret. It's all speculation.

Apple does work with the developer community, especially when the developer is a company the likes and size of Adobe. When it comes to businesses of this size, Apple simply doesn't deliver developer tools and hopes for the best. Adobe's software generates quite a bit of interest in the Mac platform so it's in Apple's interest to keep a good thing going.

Quote:
And for you flash programers out there, just deal with it and download the SDK and start learning how to build efficient apps for the phone instead of thinking flash is your development environment.

The general concern isn't being able to develop Flash apps for the iPhone and I would think that your average Flash developer isn't all that concerned either. That's what the SDK is for.

What most people are experiencing on the iPhone is the fact that when you browse a good cross section of web pages, a major element of the design / website / experience is clearly missing. You have this wonderfully crafted device that seems to have a "hole" in it. A web browser should account for things such as these if possible. A good web developer, in the meantime, should know not to build sites with a flash nav or something that is a roadblock to usability.

So... can you explain to us how Flash is a bad product exactly? How long have you been developing in it vs other environments to make that assertion?

Are you reacting at all to the ways in which web designers and developers use flash within websites? This is an entirely different subject, but I would agree with you there.
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2.66ghz Mac Pro - 5gb / 830gb / 7300gt 256mb
1ghz Tibook - 1gb / 60gb / 9000 64mb
iPhone - 8gb

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post #86 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by netbanshee View Post

I disagree with your first two points (really bad product / lost its ability to be upgraded), but I agree with you on your last point (not necessary for the iPhone launch).

If the product wasn't really bad, it wouldn't be such a "performance problem" that it couldn't go out on the iPhone.

If it really did enjoy such wide-spread aclaim, Apple wouldn't be able to EXclude it which of course they did and nobody cared.

There's a difference between 95% of the people having something installed and more than 9.5% knowing it got installed.(kind of like mentioning a certain font and saying it's needed because 95% of the computers have it installed....)

There's also a reason so many people go out of there way to disable flash in their web-browser.
That reason of course, is it's more of a pain than it's worth and you lose little by doing so.
(doing so automatically on the phone is a no brainer)

And of course finally.... the only evidence anyone needs to show how Adobe has lost the ability to support or move forward the product comes from the stupid announcment they had to recant about how they would use the SDK for the iPhone to implement flash.

If they don't understand that much of it, making it perform well enough to *NOT* be a performance problem seems too far for them to go.

In a world where a web page can have an insert that uses 100% of a desktop 2G pentium cpu with tons a memory...... as if it's nothing...... you can't let this run on a iPhone or it will melt the battery. Nuff said......
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